The New Tier List

[lordvaati]

This should be called "teh online SSB tier lizt"

tires don exist!

 

[Kefit]

falcon, fox, yoshi, dk, link, mario, and ness say hi.

Yeah, some of these guys are pretty easy to combo too. Pika's just got this perfect combination of falling speed, weight, and hit stun length that, in my experience, make him easier to combo, especially right off the bat, then any of these guys except maybe Ness.

On a side note, Fox's fast falling ruins a lot of combos since he can just hit the ground and tech away. I guess it makes him weak against ubiquitous Kirby and Falcon combos, but its a saving grace against characters that rely on combos that actively carry the character horizontally or don't introduce much upward momentum. So I'm not sure why you state Fox's falling speed is a negative - at worst it's a mixed blessing. Bad in some match-ups, good in others.

pika has a GOOD ground game. utilt is extremely comboable and leads to grab on block. dtilt also leads to grab on block and sends at a nice angle. usmash is a strong reliable finisher that combos into thunder if it doesnt kill and fsmash is the best onstage edgeguard in the game. also has a long range grab. i dont understand how you could say he has a weak ground game.

I did not mean to say that Pika's ground moves are bad. Utilit is great defensive utility and for comboing, and fsmash is of course very good for edge guarding and mind games. However, Pika's got nothing on the ground to save him from high pressure ground games based around good jabs and tilts. Utilt is too slow, and in these cases often grab is too slow too. Of course, Pika will want to avoid these situations by sticking to the air as much as possible, but he cannot stay air borne forever.

the same could be said about any character if the opponent knows what hes doing but pika has up b to escape non-legit combos.

Pika's tech roll is still worse than many of the other characters, and this can make a substantial difference in survivability during a tech chase.

Up-B is great for escaping some not quite combos, sure, but I'm not talking about those here. It's also certainly not the only combo breaking move in the game (Mario/Luigi down-B, DK up-B/random aerial, Yoshi's second jump, etc).

easy to kill? pika has great priority in his attacks, hes fast, has up b to escape combos, and he has the best and least limited recovery in the game. ****er is hard to hit and very hard to edgeguard. his only flaw is his below average weight but it barely means anything because of all the **** he's got going for him.

Yeah, Pika is hard to hit when a good player plays him. Other characters that are hard to hit when played by a good player include most, if not all, of the rest of the cast.

Up-b is probably too good, but against an opponent familiar with how the move can be used on a given stage it often comes down to nothing more than making the opponent guess whether you are going to sweet spot the ledge or go for a platform. At this point it's not particularly game breaking.

By the way, you seem to have a vendetta against Pikachu. Did he steal your girlfriend or something?

 

[Nybb]

I'm curious. People who are saying this list only applies to online...how does online/offline supposedly affect this? It's not like the discussion that produced the matchup chart and this list was full of random online noobs. Some randoms did give input, but it's not like their word was just taken as fact or something. But more generally...how do you think online play affects the metagame / this tier list? I don't really see how it would...Fox is frequently toted as the hardest character to play online, and Falcon one of the easiest, but this list has Fox only barely under Pikachu and Falcon has moved down since the old one.

 

[Daedatheus]

Well, it's easy to explain.

random online noobs

are saying this list only applies to online

There we go

 

[SilentSlayers]

I did not mean to say that Pika's ground moves are bad. Ultilt and fsmash are fantastic for combos

Huh? How is Fsmash good for combos?

 

[infernovia]

I hate playing fox online. One mistake and I am pretty much screwed while my combos are much tighter on frames. Also, KB is really tough and makes me hurt my fingers.

Of course, thats no excuse. Kows is a great fox online and so are many people here.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Who the hell are you

some1 who won a small smash64 tourny back in the day with jigglypuff. but it was a reaaaaaaaaallly long time ago. is there something game breaking discovered about her that puts her so low? Or did other character's metagames advance like crazy?

 

[Lawrencelot]

some1 who won a small smash64 tourny back in the day with jigglypuff. but it was a reaaaaaaaaallly long time ago. is there something game breaking discovered about her that puts her so low? Or did other character's metagames advance like crazy?

Nah, people put her way too low for some reason, because "she doesn't really have advantegeous matchups" coughfalcondkmorecough

 

[SheerMadness]

Jiggly is pritty easy to edgegaurd despite her 5 jumps. She dies really early and shes pritty slow on the ground and aair.

For example If I fair Jiggly in the mid/high 40's on dreamland with Yoshi its guaranteed death because it leads to a down b. If you can consistenly kill a character in the 40s thats a pritty big disadvatage.

 

[Nintendude]

People need to stop thinking that online Smash is so fake that it doesn't matter. It's the same game.

 

[Zen Yore]

i agree with nintendude, saying online is fake smash is only a john

 

[SilentSlayers]

It's just like TASing. Even though it's crazy, it can still be done on console. Maybe not the best example, but that said, it emulates the game exactly as its played on console. People have to stop being elitists just because they play on console. fake smash don exits.

 

[DMoogle]

It's just like TASing. Even though it's crazy, it can still be done on console.

Human hands don't always cooperate with what their brain is telling them. Bots/TAS do exactly what they're told and never make mistakes.

Although I agree that the whole "fake smash" thing is totally overblown, a person who has never played online before is going to play much worse against someone of equal smash skill and ability that is used to a delay of 3 frames or so.

When I played on a console after only playing online for like 2 years (the majority of which was on Good i.e. 5 frames delay), I played like ****.

 

[(blondekid)]

fake smash is real.

 

[Frogles]

Yeah, some of these guys are pretty easy to combo too. Pika's just got this perfect combination of falling speed, weight, and hit stun length that, in my experience, make him easier to combo, especially right off the bat, then any of these guys except maybe Ness.

On a side note, Fox's fast falling ruins a lot of combos since he can just hit the ground and tech away. I guess it makes him weak against ubiquitous Kirby and Falcon combos, but its a saving grace against characters that rely on combos that actively carry the character horizontally or don't introduce much upward momentum. So I'm not sure why you state Fox's falling speed is a negative - at worst it's a mixed blessing. Bad in some match-ups, good in others.

ill give you easier to combo right off the bat but those other chars i mentioned get hit harder when a combo starts and don't have a magical up b that will easily get them out of tight spots (save for maybe yoshi and mario to a much lesser extent)

the only char i can think of that has a harder time comboing heavies is...link?

I did not mean to say that Pika's ground moves are bad. Utilit is great defensive utility and for comboing, and fsmash is of course very good for edge guarding and mind games. However, Pika's got nothing on the ground to save him from high pressure ground games based around good jabs and tilts. Utilt is too slow, and in these cases often grab is too slow too. Of course, Pika will want to avoid these situations by sticking to the air as much as possible, but he cannot stay air borne forever.

which chars ground games exactly are you talking about?

Pika's tech roll is still worse than many of the other characters, and this can make a substantial difference in survivability during a tech chase.

pikas tech chase isn't so bad that he'll still be hit after a bad guess on the opponents side. an unsuccessful tech chase on one character will probably still be unsuccessful on pika.

Up-B is great for escaping some not quite combos, sure, but I'm not talking about those here. It's also certainly not the only combo breaking move in the game (Mario/Luigi down-B, DK up-B/random aerial, Yoshi's second jump, etc).

mario/luigi/dk might still be in danger after an up b will pika will end up pretty far away.

Yeah, Pika is hard to hit when a good player plays him. Other characters that are hard to hit when played by a good player include most, if not all, of the rest of the cast.

other chars save for maybe jigglypuff don't have the aerial mobility nor the priority/range pika has

Up-b is probably too good, but against an opponent familiar with how the move can be used on a given stage it often comes down to nothing more than making the opponent guess whether you are going to sweet spot the ledge or go for a platform. At this point it's not particularly game breaking.

yah i agree its too good. pika up b is a much safer guess than fox up b, or falcon up b, or mario up b, etc. other chars also don't get to jump out as far as they'd like to edgeguard. =/

By the way, you seem to have a vendetta against Pikachu. Did he steal your girlfriend or something?

 

[Deleted member]

i agree with nintendude, saying online is fake smash is only a john

real smash doesn't have lag spikes, delay, or the bad online community (mattNF)

 

[Nintendude]

Lag spikes do not affect a character's worth and are easily avoidable altogether. Delay is practically negligible if you can get 1 or 2 frames with p2p. Is playing console smash on an LCD TV fake smash as well?

 

[Deleted member]

i'm going to assume you are being sarcastic

 

[Nintendude]

It's pretty ironic how you mention the bad community since you contribute to the elitist aura.

 

[Deleted member]

thanks

although i don't recall a time where I considered myself elite or even good

 

[Nintendude]

Being condescending is just as much a source of elitism as talking about skill, but w/e, I've seen way worse.

 

[TANK64]

Delay is practically negligible if you can get 1 or 2 frames with p2p. Is playing console smash on an LCD TV fake smash as well?

It's not "fake", but I wouldn't play a tourney/money match on a Laggy flat screen. There's a reason countless people still drag old tvs out to Melee tournaments. Because it still effects the game- even if it's not "kill yourself lag." Everyone here knows that a small mistake in Smash (against a good player) can lead to the loss of a stock.

Lag spikes do not affect a character's worth and are easily avoidable altogether.

It's not that it changes a character's worth. It's that some characters have a smaller margin for error than others.

real smash doesn't have lag spikes, delay, or the bad online community

Everytime I think of something- you post it. Every time!

 

[Nintendude]

Ok, but is it not common sense which occurrences should be disregarded when it comes to analysis? Like, ok, maybe a random lag spike will screw up one of Fox's combos, but there's no reason that should make one think Fox is worse than he actually is.

And when I brought up TV lag I meant the equivalent of like 2-3 frames of delay. I've been to tournaments where there were TVs that had a really really tiny bit of lag. If lag on console doesn't make a difference in evaluating a version of Smash, lag online does not either.

 

[Deleted member]

Being condescending is just as much a source of elitism as talking about skill, but w/e, I've seen way worse.

the only people i'm "condescending" to are people who deserve it for making dumb comments or giving horrifying advice to new people who want to learn the game

i never do unwarranted attacks except against fireblaster

---

lag spikes are not that cool and even if p2p gets rid of a lot of it, teams matches are bound to have at least slight problems which sucks because teams is the only part I enjoy playing online. And lag spikes online hurt fox a LOT. In my opinion, Falcon is better than Fox online because Fox needs that little bit more precision and a tiny lag spike can ruin things

nobody likes delay except for YBOMBB, dunno what you are trying to point out here and why would any sane person play smash 64 on an LCD. Some people are more picky than others, personally I find 3 frames with Fox really uncomfortable

 

[Lovage]

people only defend laggy online smash because they forgot about the cool and smooth grace of real n64 smash, savage stuff

 

[TANK64]

oh by the way I got online working now- so everyone can finally stop asking me!

oh sorry-back on topic
........Kirby is broken

 

[Skrlx]

Is having Smash running offline (without running Kaillera) considered fake smash?
Offline to me seems about as good as console. Practically no delay and if there's lag OFFLINE you better throw away that Pentium III computer. (of course there's other factors that could make it FAKE like being able to change the deadzone/range so that your joystick is more sensitive than on n64)

 

[Deleted member]

(of course there's other factors that could make it FAKE like being able to change the deadzone/range so that your joystick is more sensitive than on n64)

 

[Frogles]

people only defend laggy online smash because they forgot about the cool and smooth grace of real n64 smash, savage stuff

or maybe its because people bad mouth it and talk as if it doesnt mean anything when the very idea is ridiculous. small amounts of input delay won't make a difference in which player wins the match in most cases. if i'm beating you online chances are i'll beat you offline and vice versa.

 

[Skrlx]

I think that's what Nintendude was talking about.
Instead of posting laughing emoticons you can actually tell me what you see wrong with what I said. You're only conveying elitism.

 

[SheerMadness]

The transition from online to console has proven to make very little differene in my experience.

I've played moogle, loto, tommyg, isai, and a couple other online players both online and console. The results of our matches were absolutely no different at all from console to online. Players of similar skill levels online will almost always be the same on console unless they use keyboard or something online.

For all the "online is fake" people out there I encourage you to take the SheerMadness challenge. Play me online then come play me on console and see if our matches are any different at all because nobody has proven to me yet that playing on console radically changes skill levels, results, gameplay etc etc.

 

[Deleted member]

there is nothing wrong with what you said near

and playing in person is more fun then a faceless guy online

 

[Lovage]

no, the real reason why it "doesn't mean anything" is because people form egos around friendlies


it might seem dumb making the distinction between friendlies and tournament play in a game that doesn't have tournaments, but they're still friendlies and nothing someone should put hella weight on or evaluate skill with

 

[Frogles]

friendlies or not people generally play to win. nothing wrong with trying to evaluate skill when both parties are trying else tourneys wouldn't mean anything either.

and i'd rather play faceless online people to avoid any awkward silences i might experience irl lulz.

 

[MattNF]

Console elitists bash online play because it gives them a shield to use if they ever get beat online. They'll just say "Oh that wouldn't have happened on console" or "It would have been more even on console" or they'll make up some lag johns

it might seem dumb making the distinction between friendlies and tournament play in a game that doesn't have tournaments

What about Unknown/Near's tournaments?

 

[Deleted member]

Console elitists bash online play because it gives them a shield to use if they ever get beat online. They'll just say "Oh that wouldn't have happened on console" or "It would have been more even on console" or they'll make up some lag johns

where did you get such ideas

 

[SheerMadness]

it might seem dumb making the distinction between friendlies and tournament play in a game that doesn't have tournaments, but they're still friendlies and nothing someone should put hella weight on or evaluate skill with

I'd argue the opposite of that. I'd say friendlies are a better way of determining skill level than tournaments. Some people are terrible tourney players, they can't handle the pressure. But just because they aren't good in tourneys doesn't mean they're not a good player.

example for u, lovage, since I know ur buddies with colbol:

My little buddy cobol (been in my crew since he was 12) got like 49th or some crap at Genesis. Everyone knows Colbol's skill level was on par if not better than most of the top 5/10 at Genesis. The only player in Florida who consistently beats him more than he beats them is Shiz yet 4 FL players placed top 10 while he got 49th.

My point is that even the best players can choke in tourneys. But just because they choke doesn't mean they aren't still 1 of the top players. Judging skill level off 50-100 friendlies is a hell of a lot better predictor of skill level than a couple tourney matches where anything can and does happen.

 

[Deleted member]

friendlies or not people generally play to win. nothing wrong with trying to evaluate skill when both parties are trying else tourneys wouldn't mean anything either.

and i'd rather play faceless online people to avoid any awkward silences i might experience irl lulz.

i live life for those awkward silences

 

[TANK64]

Players of similar skill levels online will almost always be the same on console unless they use keyboard or something online.

Keyboard users!
Those fake disgusting repulsive degenerate inbred smashers!
This is where Nixxon comes in and falcon punches me!
(It's a joke)

And yes, I agree that skill levels between players will remain the same. But I think the game play is different. (Either that or my computer sucks )
oh, and playing a real person is fun too

 

[BRLNK88]

I'm actually glad Kirby got moved down, despite the fact I main him.
He's really just a cheap product of Sakurai's favoritism.
Even Isai hardly ever uses him competitively.
But Fox in the hands of a skilled player can **** you so hard, so fast.
Course Pikachu is just destined to always be the best. Literally his only flaw is his light-weight.
But I still think Luigi>DK, despite his terrible air speed. His ping combo is ****.