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Social The Mii Fighter Thread: Where You and Mii Can Talk! Mii Fighter Social!

False Sense

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I think the problem with the Icon argument. Is that it's only one against the numerous reasons why Miis could be playable. They're by far the most successful series in the Wii era, they'd attract the casual crowd that enjoys mainly the Mii games resulting in more sales of the game, they are Nintendo icons whether we like to admit it or not, and the Miis still have Tomodachi Life's release in June and E3 as their chances to be revealed. If they're not revealed as playable at either June 6th or anywhere during E3 Suddenly Mii's chances have dropped considerably.

Meaning it's not the Icon argument that would ultimately be the biggest strike. It's if they're not revealed by the end of E3. If they're not playable, the Icon thing would only be a clue and nothing else. And if they are, the whole argument is of course meaningless. Because Miis would be in, and that's that.
Slight problem there. I'm not arguing against why Miis shouldn't be playable. All of your justifications for their inclusion are perfectly valid, and I agree with every one of them. However, what I'm focusing on is factual evidence that indicates that the Miis won't be playable. All the justifications for why Miis should be included don't mean a thing against direct evidence straight from the actual game.

Also, in regards to the second thing you said... Doesn't that apply to every character and evidence for or against their inclusion? Of course evidence against their inclusion doesn't mean anything if the character is in the game, and vice versa, but until we actually know whether or not the character is in the game, we have to go by whatever evidence we can find.
 

SonicMario

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Slight problem there. I'm not arguing against why Miis shouldn't be playable. All of your justifications for their inclusion are perfectly valid, and I agree with every one of them. However, what I'm focusing on is factual evidence that indicates that the Miis won't be playable. All the justifications for why Miis should be included don't mean a thing against direct evidence straight from the actual game.

Also, in regards to the second thing you said... Doesn't that apply to every character and evidence for or against their inclusion? Of course evidence against their inclusion doesn't mean anything if the character is in the game, and vice versa, but until we actually know whether or not the character is in the game, we have to go by whatever evidence we can find.
I'm just saying the Miis being as big they are in the eyes of Nintendo. Hypothetically speaking (If they're not playable), The fact they're not revealed as newcomers on a big stage like E3. Before the game comes out, would be more evidence against them then whatever the Icon thing brought up. It'd be a footnote compared to "Miis weren't revealed as playable at a pretty huge event".
 

False Sense

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I'm just saying the Miis being as big they are in the eyes of Nintendo. Hypothetically speaking (If they're not playable), The fact they're not revealed as newcomers on a big stage like E3. Before the game comes out, would be more evidence against them then whatever the Icon thing brought up. It'd be a footnote compared to "Miis weren't revealed as playable at a pretty huge event".
Yeah, I agree. But E3 hasn't happened yet. So the icon is all the evidence against their inclusion we have. And, unfortunately, I believe it's a rather significant piece of evidence.
 

SonicMario

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Yeah, I agree. But E3 hasn't happened yet. So the icon is all the evidence against their inclusion we have. And, unfortunately, I believe it's a rather significant piece of evidence.
I still disagree :p

Either through how Icons seem even less of an indicator then they were in Brawl, or they're purposefully making the stages have their own icons as to not spoil the Mii's inclusion (Cause if they had the Mii symbol, then that hardly makes the reveal a surprise that Nintendo thinks they're doing. If they did that, everyone would just be thinking they should have confirmed Miis in the Direct instead of just delaying the inevitable if the Stage had the Mii symbol)
 

False Sense

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I still disagree :p

Either through how Icons seem even less of an indicator then they were in Brawl, or they're purposefully making the stages have their own icons as to not spoil the Mii's inclusion (Cause if they had the Mii symbol, then that hardly makes the reveal a surprise that Nintendo thinks they're doing. If they did that, everyone would just be thinking they should have confirmed Miis in the Direct instead of just delaying the inevitable if the Stage had the Mii symbol)
Actually, would the Find Mii stage having a Mii symbol really be such a spoiler?

After all, as I've said so many times, it's the Find Mii stage. It's basically a Mii centric stage. It could have a generic Mii symbol even if the Miis weren't in the game, and I doubt anyone would really question it. It doesn't, though. It has its own symbol.

Also, the symbol being a generic Mii symbol wouldn't have really changed the Miis situation from what it was before the Direct. Most people, myself included, read the inclusion of a Find Mii stage as an fairly strong indication that Miis would be playable. After all, it's an excellent choice for a home stage. If anything was a "giveaway" to the Miis inclusion, it was the reveal of that stage. No one really thought about the symbol before the Direct; people just assumed it would be the Miis stage and probably would share their symbol. It wasn't until the symbol was revealed to be something we didn't really expect did it ever come into question. So, the main point I'm trying to get across is that I doubt they're purposefully making the stage have its own icon just to hide the Miis inclusion. If they wanted to hide something like that, they would have been better off just not revealing the stage at all.

And I don't see anything to support the idea that the icons have less meaning than in Brawl.
 

fogbadge

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I think that works, but only to a degree. Stages like Pilotwings, which Miis have been a part of, but weren't central to (the series existed long before the Miis did), can have their own symbol separate from the Miis. But with a stage like Find Mii, which is entirely Mii focused, you'd think that it, of all stages, would have a symbol the Miis could use as well. Yet it doesn't. On top of that, there hasn't been that many Mii stages revealed so far. There's been the Pilotwings stage on the Wii U (which doesn't really tie into the Miis that much), and the Find Mii and Tomodachi stages on the 3DS. I don't think that's so many that lumping them under one symbol would be an issue.
personally i dont see pilotwings as a mii stage
 
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False Sense

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I still maintain that sakurai may have thought why should tamodatchi life and street pass quest be lumped together when they're not part of the same series just mii centric games
The Miis don't really have a defined series, though; only games based around them. Find Mii and Tomodachi Life are both games entirely centered around Miis. It makes very little sense for them NOT to use a proper Mii symbol if Miis are there.

The logical explanation for such an event is that Miis aren't playable, and thus there is no character to bind those stages together. As a result, each has its own symbol to represent themselves, and themselves alone.
 

Speculator

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I could understand Tomodachi Life having its own symbol, since it's an established series. Find Mii isn't a series, it's very much a means with which people can play around with their Miis on 3DS. If there was a Mii Maker stage or a Check Mii Out channel stage I'd expect them to use a Mii emblem, not to be given their own series icons. That's how I feel about Find Mii, so from that perspective I think it does raise a few questions.
 
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False Sense

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i think thats just a matter of opinion
Considering that it's a game entirely focused on Miis (a Mii even appears in the background of the Find Mii stage...), it would go against the precedent set by just about every other stage in the series.

For a comparison, the Find Mii stage having its own icon while the playable Miis have their own would be somewhat similar to the Mario Circuit stage in Brawl having its own unique kart icon while the Mario characters retained the mushroom icon. It wouldn't have been totally unreasonable, considering Mario Kart is its own distinct series compared to more traditional Mario games. It still had the Mushroom icon, though. The situation for the Miis and Find Mii would be even worse considering that the Find Mii stage is pretty much the most obvious choice for the Miis home stage. If it didn't share a proper symbol with the Miis, they'd more than likely be without a true home stage, despite there being a clear cut choice already in the game.

So, to a degree, you could say that it's a matter of opinion. But I'm also going by precedents and what makes logical sense. Not all of this is simply opinion based.
 

fogbadge

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Considering that it's a game entirely focused on Miis (a Mii even appears in the background of the Find Mii stage...), it would go against the precedent set by just about every other stage in the series.

For a comparison, the Find Mii stage having its own icon while the playable Miis have their own would be somewhat similar to the Mario Circuit stage in Brawl having its own unique kart icon while the Mario characters retained the mushroom icon. It wouldn't have been totally unreasonable, considering Mario Kart is its own distinct series compared to more traditional Mario games. It still had the Mushroom icon, though. The situation for the Miis and Find Mii would be even worse considering that the Find Mii stage is pretty much the most obvious choice for the Miis home stage. If it didn't share a proper symbol with the Miis, they'd more than likely be without a true home stage, despite there being a clear cut choice already in the game.

So, to a degree, you could say that it's a matter of opinion. But I'm also going by precedents and what makes logical sense. Not all of this is simply opinion based.
well remember ive just been presenting ideas and theories if it ends up being either way id see how it made sense

also remember that tomdatchi life and street pass quest aren't really part of the same larger franchise like mario kart and super mario
 
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False Sense

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well remember ive just been presenting ideas and theories if it ends up being either way id see how it made sense

also remember that tomdatchi life and street pass quest are really part of the same larger franchise like mario kart and super mario
In that case, then they should share the same symbol. But how likely is it that the Tomodachi Life stage will have the same crown symbol that Find Mii does?
 

Curious Villager

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Not that I've been paying much attention here, but are we talking in terms of the Mii's getting a generic Mii symbol? I'm not really sure how much these things really matter in the long turn as Megaman ended up with a gear symbol despite fans imagining him with other types of symbols, and I wouldn't really think of Wii Fit getting a symbol of a woman in a Yoga pose, I would think the balance board would have been more suited but ah well, I guess that's just me... *shrug* :/
 

False Sense

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Not that I've been paying much attention here, but are we talking in terms of the Mii's getting a generic Mii symbol? I'm not really sure how much these things really matter in the long turn as Megaman ended up with a gear symbol despite fans imagining him with other types of symbols, and I wouldn't really think of Wii Fit getting a symbol of a woman in a Yoga pose, I would think the balance board would have been more suited but ah well, I guess that's just me... *shrug* :/
Eh, sort of. It's not really the same kind of situation as Mega Man of Wii Fit Trainer's symbols. Maybe Mega Man having a gear for his symbol is a bit odd, but it works and is consistent with how the rest of his series is represented in Smash (it's used for his stage, Assist Trophy, and enemies in Smash Run). With Miis, they have a stage that would be an obvious choice to be their home stage, but the symbol it has wouldn't fit the Miis. What I've been arguing is that it doesn't make sense for the Miis to have the Find Mii crown as their character symbol, and at the same time, it doesn't make sense for the Find Mii stage to have a symbol that's different from the Miis, considering how closely tied the Find Mii stage is to the Miis. The logical conclusion I draw from this is that Miis aren't playable, and thus the Find Mii stage has it's own, unique symbol to represent itself and itself alone.

It is a tiny detail, I admit. But I think the implications of it are actually quite large.
 

Louie G.

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I personally don't think Miis will get a specific symbol. Maybe the word "Mii" that shows up in Mario Kart and the like.
In fact, I expect them to be treated like Mario Kart. A generic "Mii" icon and you get to choose which one you use, likely the one ties to a Nintendo Network.
Also, I don't really expect them to be treated as newcomers like the others. They probably won't get a trailer or an E3 reveal, and they may not even get a character page. I just expect them to be in the game and selectable.
 

False Sense

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I personally don't think Miis will get a specific symbol. Maybe the word "Mii" that shows up in Mario Kart and the like.
In fact, I expect them to be treated like Mario Kart. A generic "Mii" icon and you get to choose which one you use, likely the one ties to a Nintendo Network.
Also, I don't really expect them to be treated as newcomers like the others. They probably won't get a trailer or an E3 reveal, and they may not even get a character page. I just expect them to be in the game and selectable.
That's an interesting way of looking at things, but I think it's unlikely. Smash isn't exactly Mario Kart; there's a much greater focus on the characters playable in the game than in something like Mario Kart. Which makes sense, really. Smash is so popular due to it being an ultimate melee between some on Nintendo's biggest icons, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Mario Kart is just a cast of Mario characters racing each other, with the only real difference between them being a general weight class. Going by that, I have a very hard time imagining that Miis would be so offhandedly put into the game, like "oh yeah, Miis are playable. What of it?" I mean, that would be kind of insulting, in a way. Miis are definitely Nintendo All-Stars in their own right, and should be treated just like any other character, not just some extra.
 

8-peacock-8

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I saw some guy in Deviantart who made a flash video giving his theories on characters. He was reasonable until he got to the Mii. He started screaming about how they would SOMEHOW be a nightmare to program and he got extremely butt hurt.
 

False Sense

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I saw some guy in Deviantart who made a flash video giving his theories on characters. He was reasonable until he got to the Mii. He started screaming about how they would SOMEHOW be a nightmare to program and he got extremely butt hurt.
They might present some technical difficulty, but at the same time, Miis, in all their wide variety of appearances, have been implemented into a ton of games at this point with seemingly little difficulty. I'm doubtful that technical limitations would be the thing to keep Miis out.
 

8-peacock-8

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I think he also said something about them not being able to have their own movesets. (Even though they totally can if they get in)

Something about the custom moveset idea for the Mii.

I can't remember since he was just shouting for no reason. I guess the idea of playable Miis is so horrible to him that it makes (damn auto correct!) him angry.
 
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False Sense

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I think he also said something about them not being able to have their own movesets. (Even though they totally can if they get in)

Something about the custom moveset idea for the Mii.

I can't remember since he was just shouting for no reason. I guess the idea of playable Miis is so horrible to him that it masked him angry.
I imagine the custom move set idea for the Miis is dead now that custom move sets are available for all characters. However, they have plenty of source material to make a move set out of, like Wii Sports, Find Mii, Tomodachi Life... Their presence in so many games gives them a lot to work with. I don't think a move set is an issue for them.

And yeah, a lot of people really hate the idea of Miis being playable, for one reason or another. I can understand why, but the way I see it, considering that they're such a big part of Nintendo now, I think they're very worthy of being called Nintendo All-Stars and would be good additions to the roster.

I just think their chances are significantly lower after the Direct, that's all...
 

MAtgSy

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I imagine the custom move set idea for the Miis is dead now that custom move sets are available for all characters.
Its not really the same thing though. Based on what we've seen, custom movesets changes the characteristics of specials but doesn't allow for completely replacing them with entirely different moves. IE you can't change Mario's down+B to Mario Tornado or you can't give TL the Skull Hammer. Miis could still have a far greater range of move options than any other character.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Mii might not even have a series icon.
 

Capybara Gaming

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Shoot me a root beer, Tapper.

*Sits down at bar, drinks a swig of root beer*

I'm SO sick of these idiots who think that the Find Mii icon means that Miis won't be in. Idiots.
 

False Sense

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Shoot me a root beer, Tapper.

*Sits down at bar, drinks a swig of root beer*

I'm SO sick of these idiots who think that the Find Mii icon means that Miis won't be in. Idiots.
Yes, those people are such idiots, aren't they?

Now, perhaps you would like to explain, in great detail, why those people are idiots?
 

False Sense

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Besides the invalidity of their arguments and the fact they are blinded by complete bias?
I'll ask again for you to provide an actual explanation for why the argument is invalid, rather than throw about accusations of bias. You have no right to be insulting the intelligence of others if you yourself do not provide a reason for why they're not intelligent.
 
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Capybara Gaming

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I'll ask again for you to provide an actual explanation for why the argument is invalid, rather than throw about accusations of bias. You have no right to be insulting the intelligence of others if you yourself do not provide a reason for why they're not intelligent.
Miis have several games and are not an established series. They appear in different genres of games that share no relation and are not actual characters with a defined personality, which is why the different Mii games can be counted as different series.

Miis rep Pilot Wings and that has a different icon that Find Mii.
 

False Sense

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Miis have several games and are not an established series. They appear in different genres of games that share no relation and are not actual characters with a defined personality, which is why the different Mii games can be counted as different series.

Miis rep Pilot Wings and that has a different icon that Find Mii.
I would still disagree with that, but unfortunately I lack the time it would take to give a proper explanation why, at least for the moment. In the meantime, I would encourage you to read through the last few pages of Mii discussion to see what all I've been saying on the matter. You're far from the first person to bring this point up, after all.

Or you could work on getting those Phoenix Wright gifs ready.
 

Capybara Gaming

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I would still disagree with that, but unfortunately I lack the time it would take to give a proper explanation why, at least for the moment. In the meantime, I would encourage you to read through the last few pages of Mii discussion to see what all I've been saying on the matter. You're far from the first person to bring this point up, after all.

Or you could work on getting those Phoenix Wright gifs ready.
At work, don't have the time.
 

False Sense

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Well, after some thought, I decided to just go ahead and write up a little analysis of the Miis situation in Smash, and see what kind of evidence we've seen that's for or against their inclusion. Hopefully this will shed some light on the matter. So...

Why Miis?

Before I start analyzing things, I think it's important to get this bit out. Why should Miis be in Smash?

Well, for starters, Miis are near omnipresent nowadays. Ever since their introduction as avatars on the Wii, they've had recurring roles in numerous Nintendo games, to the point where it's difficult to keep track of them all. Aside from just games, Miis have become an icon for Nintendo as of late, with their prominence on the Wii being expanded upon on the 3DS (which is notable, considering that the 3DS has nothing to do with the Wii and didn't need to incorporate Miis, especially since there's no pun to be made) and the Wii U, the latter of which they are particularly prominent in through Miiverse, a new feature introduced that allows players to discuss games using their Miis. There's simply no denying the prominence Miis have now. So, when you have a game like Smash, a game that is known for bringing together Nintendo All-Stars together into one title, Miis seem like a good choice for being playable, as at this point they could certainly be considered Nintendo All-Stars. Of course, being an icon for Nintendo alone is not enough; characters also have to be capable of fighting it out with the other All-Stars on the roster. In other words, they need to have a move set to use. Fortunately for Miis, the numerous titles they've appeared in give them plenty of material to make a coherent move set out of, ranging from the sporting equipment from Wii Sports to magic and swordplay from Find Mii. Overall, Miis have a lot of good characteristics that would make them perfectly reasonable additions to the Smash roster.

Yeah, just wanted to get that part out of the way early. I do legitimately think that Miis are a justified addition to the Smash roster. Now obviously there is a ton of controversy regarding Miis being in Smash, with a lot of people hating the very concept of Miis being playable, and others who think that Miis would be too much of a technical challenge. Now, personally, I don't believe that either of these things would keep them out of Smash. Just as there are a lot of people who dislike Miis, there are a number of people who like them, and would enjoy seeing them in Smash (the existence of this thread is proof enough of that). And considering how Miis have been implemented into numerous other games at this point with no apparent difficulty, and considering how there are already very complex characters in Smash, a little bit of technical issues probably wouldn't stop Sakurai. So, the bottom line of all this is that Miis are justified, reasonable inclusions in Smash, and the reasons against their inclusion, while not beneficial to their chances, do in no way rule them out.

However, the main focus of this analysis isn't why Miis should be playable, or anything like that. The focus of this is to analyze what evidence we've actually seen in Smash 4 that supports or goes against the idea that Miis are playable in Smash.

Supporting Evidence

+ A stage based on Pilot Wings is present in the Wii U version of the game. This is notable due to the fact that the stage prominently features Wuhu Island, the setting for multiple "Wii" titles that heavily feature Miis. Miis have not been seen on the island thus far.

+ A stage based on Find Mii is present in the 3DS version of the game. As Find Mii is a game that's entirely based on Miis (compared to the Pilot Wings stage, which comes from a series that existed long before Miis), this is an ideal home stage for the Miis if they are playable.

+ A stage based on Tomodachi Life is present in the 3DS version of the game. Tomodachi Life is another game that focuses on Miis, in this case using them as citizens in a life-simulation game. Like the other stages before it, the presence of this stage in the game may hint at the appearance of playable Miis.

Well, I believe that's everything. If I left something out, do let me know. Now then...

Damaging Evidence

- The Pilot Wings stage, despite featuring Wuhu Island, may not mean much for the Miis being playable, as the Pilot Wings series has existed long before Miis have, and may simply be referencing the latest installment in the series as well as the older ones.

- The Miis appear as icons for players in Online mode, representing players and their "Global Smash Power." While not a de-confirmation by any means, this is an instance of Miis appearing in Smash in a role other than that of a playable character.

- One of the Miis biggest titles is Wii Sports, which many fans thought would be an ideal source to pull material from to make a move set for the Miis. However, another character on the roster, the Villager, already uses items like a bowling ball and boxing gloves in his own move set. Now, again, this obviously doesn't de-confirm Miis, as Little Mac was revealed sometime after the Villager, despite both utilizing boxing gloves for their move sets. However, it is something worth noting, especially considering that both the Villager and Miis are avatar characters who (would) use random props and items from their games to make a move set out of.

- A Mii appears in the cage of the Find Mii stage. As Toon Link has shown us, characters who appear in the background of stages are not necessarily de-confirmed. However, like with the Miis appearing in Online mode, this is an instance of Miis appearing in a role other than that of a playable character. While it's far from a de-confirmation, it is a strike against them.

- The Find Mii stage has a Find Mii crown for its series symbol (here we go...). This is a small but rather interesting detail that could mean a lot for the Miis chances. Within Smash, series that have representation through characters or stages are given a symbol to identify themselves with. The symbol for a series is usually something generic that can encompass whatever series it stands for as a whole (for example, the Mario series is represented by a mushroom symbol). The symbol of a series is then applied to any characters or stages that originate from that series. The Find Mii stage's symbol is rather interesting because of this. The stage is represented by a crown, which is clearly based on the crown worn by the King Mii that you work towards saving within Find Mii. In terms of representing Find Mii as a series, this fits in perfectly with the previous examples of symbols we've seen. However, if Miis were to be included as playable characters, the Find Mii stage would be an obvious choice for a home stage, as it comes from a game focused entirely on Miis. Given how closely the Miis and Find Mii are tied together, it would make sense that the stage would share a symbol with the Miis if they were playable. However, the crown symbol makes little to no sense as a symbol for the Miis. For one, the crown is distinctly based on Find Mii. If the Miis used this symbol, it would tie them to that specific game and that one alone, despite them appearing in numerous other titles aside from that (like Tomodachi Life, which is also getting a stage). Also, it is highly unlikely that the Find Mii stage will appear on the Wii U version of the game; thus, the symbol used by the Miis would have no meaning on that version of the game. Now, it could be argued that the Miis have no real series, and that the stages based on the Miis games could have their own symbol while the Miis have one of their own. However, this still doesn't make much sense. Despite not being part of the same series, the games based on Miis are still based on Miis. The games are all connected by the appearance of the Miis, thus making them "Mii" games. This is, in a way, similar to the Mario games. Games like Mario Kart, Luigi's Mansion, and Paper Mario aren't really part of the same series as, say, Super Mario Galaxy, being completely different genres and having multiple titles within that genre. Yet those games are still Mario games due to the presence of Mario characters and themes. Similarly, this translates into Smash, where stages based on Mario Kart and Luigi's Mansion share the same mushroom symbol that the rest of the Mario stages and characters do. Going off of that, it makes very little sense for the Find Mii stage to have a different symbol than that of the Miis if they are playable, considering that, even if it is distinct from other "Mii" games, Find Mii is still a "Mii" game. The most logical explanation for why the stage has a symbol different from that of the Miis is quite simple; Miis are not playable, and thus there is nothing to tie the "Mii" stages together, and each stage simply represents its own small series.



Well, I think that about sums it up. So, basically, what the Miis have going for them at this point are some stages based on games that Miis have featured prominently in. What they have going against them is them appearing in Smash in ways that aren't as playable characters, possible move set options being implemented in other characters, and the stages based on the "Mii" games possibly not associating themselves with any playable character.

In my mind, the negatives outweigh the positives. I find the Miis unlikely at this point.
 
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