Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Shaya]

There's no embarrassment in the Church of Mars at the Leon shrine overlooking Neko Chasm while Shaya presides.

 

[cerealkiller]

I see. I typically go for the DB3 combo. DB1and2 are suicide and at least DB3 it leaves them with a weaker shield. What I also have been trying is do DB1+2 stop and as they are about to drop the shield DB again. It has been surprisingly effective some times because some don't expect you to stop there and keep shielding longer. But if they are good....

 

[Vipermoon]

If you want to continue dancing blade on their shield DO NOT do DB3 Down. Do DB3 Forward and then switch to DB4 Down. They will expect 1 more shield poke and hopefully end up dropping shield during the multihit. If you did DB3 Down they won't drop their shield because eventually realize it's the down version.

 

[cerealkiller]

That seems like a good idea. I wonder how long it will take me to implement that kind of thinking into gameplay.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

That seems like a good idea. I wonder how long it will take me to implement that kind of thinking into gameplay.

Not that long. Just don't do DB3 down. Simple.

 

[cerealkiller]

And suddenly I'm a pro player

 

[Flamecircle]

Can someone make a guide or something of the like on how to use Marth's jab? For example, when is it safe to follow up with utilt, when is it escapable, whatnot?

I see so much posting hyping it up, but not a lot explaining how to use it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Maybe I can make a jab thread when I have time

 

[Flamecircle]

That'd be great, thanks.

 

[Shaya]

If you want to continue dancing blade on their shield DO NOT do DB3 Down. Do DB3 Forward and then switch to DB4 Down. They will expect 1 more shield poke and hopefully end up dropping shield during the multihit. If you did DB3 Down they won't drop their shield because eventually realize it's the down version.

DB1-3 can be done fast enough so you cannot do a defensive option to escape before hand. While DB3-4 is a lot longer and gives opponents time to punish.
DB3 down slides you backwards.
You don't use a move expecting they drop shield during a multihit. What is this, wifi?
And if they're going to hold shield after db3 down, then great success, that's exactly what you want.

If you're going all forward on db strikes then you're taking a guaranteed punish from a forward roll.
Person comes in asking when to stop DB on shield because it's punishable, "do all the db hits on shield anyway".
Seriously -.-

 

[Vipermoon]

DB1-3 can be done fast enough so you cannot do a defensive option to escape before hand. While DB3-4 is a lot longer and gives opponents time to punish.
DB3 down slides you backwards.
You don't use a move expecting they drop shield during a multihit. What is this, wifi?
And if they're going to hold shield after db3 down, then great success, that's exactly what you want.

If you're going all forward on db strikes then you're taking a guaranteed punish from a forward roll.
Person comes in asking when to stop DB on shield because it's punishable, "do all the db hits on shield anyway".
Seriously -.-

He asked what the strategy should be. You guys told him what to do/not to do. I said if you must attack the shield with dancing blade that this is a way to trick them into dropping shield. People will sometimes drop shield after the first couple hits of 4 Down. And it's more likely to have if you don't use 3 Down. Not just on wifi. Perfect-wifi matches only have a couple frames more input lag anyway. I was pointing out the mind game but never did I say this is a better idea than stopping DB.

But wow you are so right about Marth going backwards after DB3 down! I mean I knew it happened, but never did I think "well this is him distancing himself from shields." Really good point there.

 

[A_Kae]

He asked what the strategy should be. You guys told him what to do/not to do. I said if you must attack the shield with dancing blade that this is a way to trick them into dropping shield. People will sometimes drop shield after the first couple hits of 4 Down. And it's more likely to have if you don't use 3 Down. Not just on wifi. Perfect-wifi matches only have a couple frames more input lag anyway. I was pointing out the mind game but never did I say this is a better idea than stopping DB.

But wow you are so right about Marth going backwards after DB3 down! I mean I knew it happened, but never did I think "well this is him distancing himself from shields." Really good point there.

Yeah, that step back is something that no one seems to expect to make such a difference. It's really great.

 

[Vipermoon]

It also helps that DB3 Down hits at a later frame than Forward, making it lag less after hit.

 

[A_Kae]

Frame Data for DB

Spoiler: Dancing Blade 1

Variation|Hitbox (ID)|Active Frames|Total Frames|Base Damage|BKB|KBG|Angle|Hitlag (Shield) [Modifer]|Shieldstun|Notes
Forward|Blade (0)|7-9 [3]|42|3%|25|75|78°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 10 / 0.8x SDI / 33 Total Frames when used in the air
Forward|Tip (1)|7-9 [3]|42|4%|25|75|92°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 10 / 0.8x SDI / 33 Total Frames when used in the air
Forward|Hilt (2)|7-9 [3]|42|3%|25|75|20°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 10 / 0.8x SDI / 33 Total Frames when used in the air

Spoiler: Dancing Blade 2

Variation|Hitbox (ID)|Active Frames|Total Frames|Base Damage|BKB|KBG|Angle|Hitlag (Shield) [Modifer]|Shieldstun|Notes
Up|Blade (0)|7-10 [4]|38|3%|30|70|85°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 16 / 0.8x SDI
Up|Tip (1)|7-10 [4]|38|4%|30|50|80°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 16 / 0.8x SDI
Up|Hilt (2)|7-10 [4]|38|3%|30|70|60°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 16 / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Blade (0)|9-10 [2]|38|3%|28|70|75°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 13 / +1 Damage to Shields (4 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Tip (1)|9-10 [2]|38|4%|28|50|90°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 13 / +1 Damage to Shields (5 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Hilt (2)|9-10 [2]|38|3%|28|70|40°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 13 / +1 Damage to Shields (4 Total) / 0.8x SDI

Spoiler: Dancing Blade 3

Variation|Hitbox (ID)|Active Frames|Total Frames|Base Damage|BKB|KBG|Angle|Hitlag (Shield) [Modifer]|Shieldstun|Notes
Up|Blade (0)|8-10 [3]|43|4%|40|40|85°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 17 / 0.8x SDI
Up|Tip (1)|8-10 [3]|43|5%|40|60|80°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 17 / 0.8x SDI
Up|Hilt (2)|8-10 [3]|43|4%|40|60|60°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 17 / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Blade (0)|6-8 [3]|43|4%|40|50|50°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 12 / +1 Damage to Shields (4 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Tip (1)|6-8 [3]|43|5%|40|35|55°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 12 / +1 Damage to Shields (5 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Forward|Hilt (2)|6-8 [3]|43|4%|40|50|40°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 12 / +1 Damage to Shields (4 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Down|Hilt (0)|8-10 [3]|43|3%|30|40|20°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 15 / +1 Damage to Shields (4 Total) / 0.8x SDI
Down|Tip (1)|8-10 [3]|43|4%|30|60|20°|6 (6) [1x]|1|Transition on Frame 15 / +1 Damage to Shields (5 Total) / 0.8x SDI

Spoiler: Dancing Blade 4

Variation|Hitbox (ID)|Active Frames|Total Frames|Base Damage|BKB|KBG|Angle|Hitlag (Shield) [Modifer]|Shieldstun|Notes
Up|Blade (0, 2)|11-15 [5]|50|6%|60|118|80°|7 (7) [1x]|2|+1 Damage to Shields (7 Total)
Up|Tip (1)|11-15 [5]|50|8%|60|118|80°|8 (8) [1x]|3|+1 Damage to Shields (9 Total)
Forward|Blade (0, 2)|13-15 [3]|55|5%|60|130|361°|6 (6) [1x]|1|+5 Damage to Shields (10 Total)
Forward|Tip (1)|13-15 [3]|55|7%|60|130|361°|7 (7) [1x]|2|+5 Damage to Shields (12 Total)
Down|Rapid 1 (0, 1, 2)|13-14 [2]|71|2%|2|40|80°|2 (5) [0.5x]|0|Tip does +1 Damage to Shields (3 Total)
Down|Rapid 2 (0, 1, 2)|19-20 [2]|71|2%|2|40|80°|2 (5) [0.5x]|0|Tip does +1 Damage to Shields (3 Total)
Down|Rapid 3 (0, 1, 2)|25-26 [2]|71|2%|2|40|80°|2 (5) [0.5x]|0|Tip does +1 Damage to Shields (3 Total)
Down|Rapid 4 (0, 1, 2)|31-32 [2]|71|2%|2|40|80°|2 (5) [0.5x]|0|Tip does +1 Damage to Shields (3 Total)
Down|Final Blade (0)|37-38 [2]|71|4%|70|80|361°|6 (6) [1x]|1|+1 Damage to Shields (5 Total)
Down|Final Tip (1)|37-38 [2]|71|6%|70|80|361°|7 (7) [1x]|2|+1 Damage to Shields (7 Total)
Down|Final Hilt (2)|37-38 [2]|71|4%|70|80|361°|6 (6) [1x]|1|

Edit: Now that I'm more awake here I'm going to give a better answer on DB on shields.

So if you hit DB1 on shield, you've got a couple of options.

1. you can yolo it and go for all the strikes and hope they drop shield.

1a. It hits. Why? What happened?
1b. They shield. You get punished.​

2. You can go to DB2 and try to evade any punishes due to it's lower ending lag.

2a. They hold shield for the duration of DB2. Run away.
2b. They aren't scared of you and attack.

2ba. They hit you. Be sad.
2bb. You hit them with DB3 before they can do something. Continue DB.​

3. You can go to DB3 Down and use it's step back to get away from you opponent and and retreat.

3a. They shield

3ab. Run away.​

3b. They get hit.

3ba. Continue DB.​

4. You can try to predict a defensive option (mainly forward roll but they might also try OoS stuff) from your opponent and time DB2 to intercept it.

4a. If you hit them, continue with DB as you would normally.
4b. If you don't hit because they shielded, use option 3.
4c. If you don't hit because you didn't predict well enough (so they rolled behind you) or they were too fast, be sad and get punished.​

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Hmm, yeah I gotta try this. Never really used DB3 down in a match.

 

[Kunai KazeKun]

Does anyone find out, what is the different for
Up-B 1 Just tip Up-B and
Up-B 2 hold B.

Marth will stay longer in the air, but dont know if you got more invi frames. It looks like it have, cause I tried to throw a bomb up and pressed up-B 2 and as I was in the air the bomb hit me, but wihtout getting damage like invi frames.

Anyone have Ideas or test this move?

 

[A_Kae]

Does anyone find out, what is the different for
Up-B 1 Just tip Up-B and
Up-B 2 hold B.

Marth will stay longer in the air, but dont know if you got more invi frames. It looks like it have, cause I tried to throw a bomb up and pressed up-B 2 and as I was in the air the bomb hit me, but wihtout getting damage like invi frames.

Anyone have Ideas or test this move?

DS doesn't have any sort of invincibility or air time increase with holding the button as far as I know.

 

[Vipermoon]

Holding B does nothing. It's holding the control stick that makes this happen. You can stall in the air a bit if you hold Up after DSing. This was also in Brawl but not Melee.

Like Brawl, you have 3 options. Hold no direction, hold up, hold down. All 3 stall at the top of DS differently and actually fall at different speeds the entire way down. You can even switch it up like perform DS, hold down, then hold up. This even matters when DSing to the top Battlefield platform. If you hold up you don't land as soon and you're more punishable.

And this is a separate thing from fast falling as the FF window is later on during the descent.

This I am not sure of, but holding up seems to help you reach the ledge during those close calls where you're unsure if you'll reach it or die trying.

Does anyone find out, what is the different for
Up-B 1 Just tip Up-B and
Up-B 2 hold B.

Marth will stay longer in the air, but dont know if you got more invi frames. It looks like it have, cause I tried to throw a bomb up and pressed up-B 2 and as I was in the air the bomb hit me, but wihtout getting damage like invi frames.

Anyone have Ideas or test this move?

DS doesn't have any sort of invincibility or air time increase with holding the button as far as I know.

 

[A_Kae]

Right, I always forget about that.

Something to add is that holding forward angles the slash so that you go farther forward. But that's at the start of the slash, not the end. I don't think holding back makes a difference, but I'm not sure.

As for the ledge grabs, I don't think that holding up helps. Holding down will make you not grab the ledge, but that's a general thing with ledges, not specific to DS.

 

[Vipermoon]

It could be possible holding up helps reach the ledge over holding nothing. But it's impossible to prove something like this. In my experiences I would be able to grab the ledge way later after I'd been stalling for a while holding up. Without holding up, at the exact point in time that holding up has me grab it, not holding up would have already started descending.

Holding backward makes you go straight up. It's kind of difficult doing this because you could turn DS around if you input it too early. This doesn't affect the strong hit because you can see Marth shoots straight up (and sort of back) after he's higher off the ground.

 

[HeldDerMenschen]

Hey, first time posting in the Marth boards. Hello Marth people. Anyway, I don't know if this is the place for this question, but since the 1.0.8 update buffed Dolphin Slash, will that change the custom movesets available (do those get updated or are we stuck with the current movesets forever?) On one hand, I feel like since it's both a quick out of shield option and it can kill before uthrow, it's more viable, but Crescent Slash and Dolphin Jump both are used for their niche properties (combos and deep edgeguarding, respectively.) So will DS become more viable over other sets in the future, or not thanks to the fact that other up specials are taken for their unique properties? Again, sorry if this is the wrong thread for this but the custom moveset thread hasn't been posted in since May (I believe) and I don't know where else this would go.

 

[Vipermoon]

I wanna take this time to say Dolphin Jump is useless. It cannot go sideways. It cannot edgeguard. You lose the OoS. It has 43 frames of landing lag in case you accidently go past the ledge and land on stage. You can argue that it's useful in some match-ups but I'd disagree and say all of the consequences of not having CS or DS are not worth it. Regardless of MU. You can go pretty deep with DS (you can go sideways too). If you have to go any deeper then maybe you should edgeguard a different way.

 

[Shaya]

1 in like... 10 matches I think to myself "oh if I had dolphin jump..."

 

[Quickhero]

Dolphin Slash is the only up b that matters. Crescent Slash is great and that is also preference but let's be real I don't see customs reappearing after EVO so you all should be using Dolphin Slash because it's a great move anyways and it's better than Crescent Slash in-terms of OoS anyways.

 

[JuanP_91]

Hey! I've been maining Marth/Lucina for some time, but now I'm completely blank on what exactly you should do when playing the neutral game.

I find some success in spacing against characters with worse range, but when they start playing aggresively I often get outmaneuvered because Marth's attacks are so laggy, and whiffing them gets me punished easily.

Characters with more range make spacing quite difficult for me and, again, being aggresive myself gets me easily punished.

Based off this, my questions are:

1. How can Marth/Lucina reliably deal with pressure?

2. Against characters like Rosalina, which will most likely never approach you, how should you apply pressure? Should you even take the initiative to do so?

I'm also considering the possibility of me just lacking the skill to react quickly and properly to pose a threat in neutral if there's no specific answers to my questions.

Any help is appreciated, and sorry if I didn't express my message clearly.

 

[HeldDerMenschen]

I'm probably not as much help as the other Marths on the board, but maybe I can give you a few pointers.
First of all, when you say you're a Marth/Lucina main, you should probably drop the Lucina part. Lucina plays like Marth but worse, and encourages poor spacing habits. It probably isn't a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind.
To deal with characters who have less range than you, you have to force them to respect yours. Spacing, as I'm sure you know, is key to playing as Marth. However, another key is the ability to make reads. Don't commit to moves that will leave you open if you don't know what the enemy will do. (This includes fsmashing.) This helps to keep pressure off of Marth as he will be less punishable. Additionally, transcendent priority is your friend. Dancing Blade is a helpful tool that beats out other, less transcendent moves and offers a somewhat large degree of variability, including set-ups into kill moves at higher percentages.
Against characters who won't approach you, including projectile campers, unfortunately your only option is to approach. You can't stand on the other side of the stage and wait for characters such as Rosalina to approach (though KOing Luma is easy from the edge of the stage and gives you time to approach the disadvantaged Rosalina.) However, Marth has the fastest walk speed in the game, allowing you almost all of your options on the approach, including Marth's powerful and fairly quick tilts. Keeping range in mind, applying pressure shouldn't be too difficult.
Hope I helped.

 

[JuanP_91]

I'm probably not as much help as the other Marths on the board, but maybe I can give you a few pointers.
First of all, when you say you're a Marth/Lucina main, you should probably drop the Lucina part. Lucina plays like Marth but worse, and encourages poor spacing habits. It probably isn't a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind.
To deal with characters who have less range than you, you have to force them to respect yours. Spacing, as I'm sure you know, is key to playing as Marth. However, another key is the ability to make reads. Don't commit to moves that will leave you open if you don't know what the enemy will do. (This includes fsmashing.) This helps to keep pressure off of Marth as he will be less punishable. Additionally, transcendent priority is your friend. Dancing Blade is a helpful tool that beats out other, less transcendent moves and offers a somewhat large degree of variability, including set-ups into kill moves at higher percentages.
Against characters who won't approach you, including projectile campers, unfortunately your only option is to approach. You can't stand on the other side of the stage and wait for characters such as Rosalina to approach (though KOing Luma is easy from the edge of the stage and gives you time to approach the disadvantaged Rosalina.) However, Marth has the fastest walk speed in the game, allowing you almost all of your options on the approach, including Marth's powerful and fairly quick tilts. Keeping range in mind, applying pressure shouldn't be too difficult.
Hope I helped.

This gave me a clear idea on what to do in both situations, so thanks a lot!

And btw, the reason I play Lucina as well is simply because as her, I always have the option of deciding not to land a tipper without losing as much damage, and that, I feel, gives me a wider variety of things to do.
I personaly believe this is the one thing in which Lucina can outclass Marth.
And yes, I know Marth is in every way better than Lucina, and that just spacing is the better option, but sometimes I just feel like mixing it up further than that.

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[A_Kae]

This gave me a clear idea on what to do in both situations, so thanks a lot!

And btw, the reason I play Lucina as well is simply because as her, I always have the option of deciding not to land a tipper without losing as much damage, and that, I feel, gives me a wider variety of things to do.
I personaly believe this is the one thing in which Lucina can outclass Marth.
And yes, I know Marth is in every way better than Lucina, and that just spacing is the better option, but sometimes I just feel like mixing it up further than that.

Again, thanks for the help!

Lucina not having a tipper gives her less options, not more.

 

[Novaseer]

Alright, I’ll layout a simple game plan for Marth’s neutral. By no means will this be the be-all-and-end-all strategy for how to play Marth, but it will provide you with the basic building blocks. Marth’s goal in the neutral is scare the opponent into inaction, thereby letting Marth safely approach with his offense. The way Marth does this depends on his opponent.

Against characters with less reach and disjoint than Marth, such as Jigglypuff, you have to scare the opponent through walling in the mid-range. The mid-range is that spacing where you’re safe from normal attacks, but are still in danger of sudden burst options such as dash attacks/grabs and specials like Diddy’s monkey flip. Walling is the act of putting up large hitboxes to discourage sudden approaches. Marth’s main walling tools are pivot F-tilt and retreating short hop F-air/B-air for their wide coverage. At moments when you think your opponent will use a burst option, use one of Marth’s walls. If you guess right, the opponent will run head first into a barrier of sharpened steel. If you guess wrong, your attack will whiff, but the backward movement of your wall will likely keep you safe. Either way, a few repetitions of your wall will teach your opponent that he can’t blindly rush you down. Once your opponent starts waiting for the right opportunity to attack (I.E. after your wall), that’s when you’re safely free to get closer and use your main pressure tools (jab, D-tilt, N-air, grab).

So what about characters with greater reach than Marth, such as Rob with his laser eyes? Against these characters walling isn’t as useful, as the opponent can just shoot through Marth’s sword with an energy blast. Instead Marth uses dash-in shields and short hop airdodges in the mid-range whenever he suspects the other will fire their blaster. Guess right, and Marth now has the frame advantage to attack. Guess wrong, and Marth can just retreat to try again as his shield and airdodge have a low-commitment. Do this enough and the opponent will learn they can’t rapidly fire projectiles all willy-nilly, granting Marth the respect he needs to walk in and pressure them.

I hope this mini-guide helps. It’s the shortest I can make it without going into all the intricacies of footsies, yomi, and stage control.

 

[Husk94]

Hey guys,
I main falcon but Marth is my main secondary. Just want to know how Marth performs in some of Falcons more annoying/hard matchups (Kirby, pikachu, luigi) and some I personally don't like (megaman, toon link). I also have an Ike on nearly the same level so I'm curious if u think Ike would be better than Marth in any of these

Thanks

 

[Shaya]

Marth may not be that bad against any of those characters. He may still lose (slightly?) to Pikachu and Luigi, but he's capable in the rest.

 

[OwlBanshee]

I wanna practice more but I don't know if there's anything else I can do. I've looked around but I haven't gotten a good, clear answer.

What do you guys do in Training Mode? Practice tippers? Combos? Is there anything else I could do?

 

[Locuan]

I wanna practice more but I don't know if there's anything else I can do. I've looked around but I haven't gotten a good, clear answer.

What do you guys do in Training Mode? Practice tippers? Combos? Is there anything else I could do?

Moved to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please use this thread whenever you have questions such as these.

 

[OwlBanshee]

Moved to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please use this thread whenever you have questions such as these.

Whoops. Well this makes it more likely to be answered. Thanks!

 

[Vipermoon]

Actually there is already a thread recently made on what to do in training

 

[OwlBanshee]

Actually there is already a thread recently made on what to do in training

Really? Is the thread only focused on that? Or is it focused on general strategies. Also, is it in the Marth boards?

 

[Moydow]

Really? Is the thread only focused on that? Or is it focused on general strategies. Also, is it in the Marth boards?

http://smashboards.com/threads/training-exercises.409292/
It's on the first page of the board, or you could have just searched the Marth board for "training mode", and it would have been (at the time of your first post) the first result.
You should always search around a bit before starting a new thread, in case one already exists.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Does anyone know the best time to implement Perfect Pivoting into their matches? I've been focusing on PP Dtilts but does anyone know better times to use PP in a match?

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Does anyone know the best time to implement Perfect Pivoting into their matches? I've been focusing on PP Dtilts but does anyone know better times to use PP in a match?

Honestly I've been wondering the same thing for a while now. You would think that a character so dependent on spacing would use and abuse a movement option like this.

Recently, I feel like it's a thing that you have to get so comfortable with that you do it all the time. That's currently what I'm working on now, but I'm not even close to where I want to be with them, and messing them up in matches is not fun. Not fun at all.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Honestly I've been wondering the same thing for a while now. You would think that a character so dependent on spacing would use and abuse a movement option like this.

Recently, I feel like it's a thing that you have to get so comfortable with that you do it all the time. That's currently what I'm working on now, but I'm not even close to where I want to be with them, and messing them up in matches is not fun. Not fun at all.

I see.

Do you think his Jab would be a good option after its buff?