Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

While I hear what your saying I'll just adjust to nerfs later and not count on them happening right now. But one thing is for sure. A new patch is coming so better nerf... (XD jk i love greninja please get a buff)
Anyway while practicing I have made a sad discovery. are not very good secondaries for my . is too defensive for me and not aggresive/ comboee enough for me, and just has similar weaknesses like . I struggle to the point where I just go Roy and learn the MU instead of using Mario. None of these characters can beat / and it kills me. So the time has come. I'm dropping &. (I'm never dropping though) So guess what that means! I'm Back on the hunt for a secondary and mabye a pocket in he event that there is 2-3 bad MU's I still have. Luckily I have finally discovered my full playstyle. I am hyper aggresive. I love combos, good grab/ tilt follow ups, mediocre recovery so i can edge guard to my hearts content, a meteor mash (SOO satisfying), and good KO power. And more range than mario. I like having good up-airs and fairs. a nice dair is fun too. And i have a list of characters to choose from. But if you've seen my past posts then you know that it's long. Sorry but here it goes. / and maybe .

 

[Green Zelda]

While I hear what your saying I'll just adjust to nerfs later and not count on them happening right now. But one thing is for sure. A new patch is coming so better nerf... (XD jk i love greninja please get a buff)
Anyway while practicing I have made a sad discovery. are not very good secondaries for my . is too defensive for me and not aggresive/ comboee enough for me, and just has similar weaknesses like . I struggle to the point where I just go Roy and learn the MU instead of using Mario. None of these characters can beat / and it kills me. So the time has come. I'm dropping &. (I'm never dropping though) So guess what that means! I'm Back on the hunt for a secondary and mabye a pocket in he event that there is 2-3 bad MU's I still have. Luckily I have finally discovered my full playstyle. I am hyper aggresive. I love combos, good grab/ tilt follow ups, mediocre recovery so i can edge guard to my hearts content, a meteor mash (SOO satisfying), and good KO power. And more range than mario. I like having good up-airs and fairs. a nice dair is fun too. And i have a list of characters to choose from. But if you've seen my past posts then you know that it's long. Sorry but here it goes. / and maybe .

I know he's not on your list, but have you tried ?
Also, why do you enjoy playing the people's boy roy? His playstyle?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I know he's not on your list, but have you tried ?

I tried Cloud but on an emotional level i dislike him. he doesn't click for me, theres already a lot in my area, and hes my worst MU and i dont like to ditto. I just like the others more

 

[KniteBlargh]

I try not to get too off topic here, but uh...
Not going to hold my breath, if you know what I mean. #Jiggs4Life

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Prays for to return. and for to come back as dlc.

 

[Green Zelda]

give his bair pls

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

give his bair pls

and dair

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I know he's not on your list, but have you tried ?
Also, why do you enjoy playing the people's boy roy? His playstyle?

First off, Fire emblem is my favorite franchise. Second, I used him in mellee. Third I find him really really cool. Fourth I love very aggressive play styles and lots of strength and that's excactly what Roy is. Fifth, I just gave a connection to him. Like if Sain or Raven or Inigo or any other characters from fire emblem joined if use them due to love for the character and stuff. The same was with but he's changed so much I just lost it. That's why. I'm not looking for that connection in a secondary since it's not gonna me there most likely but I just want the best partner for my boy.

 

[Green Zelda]

Try / or . Im pretty sure they do well/go even against Roy's tough matchups, and they're aggressive/rushdown characters (well, sorta).

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

WAIT FOR THE PATCH. should get nerfed anyway, he has very few disadvantaged matchups.
Hoping you get some buffs so that you can end the secondary hunt, or make it easier.
If you have to wait for the patch, then yes, pick one of /. They are similar to Roy enough that they'll be easy for you to play, but they have the added bonus of reflectors and projectiles. Also, better recoveries.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Do they beat ?

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Anyone in the top 14 can take on any character with confidence. Heck, even the high tiers can go solo and not fear bad matchups too badly. So of course can handle them all. So could , but I guess that won't work for your playstyle.
does lose some matchups due to low air speed and arrow counterplay, but he should be fine against those few.

 

[Laken64]

Its said that / have the most 50:50 MUs in the game, thats what the Pit boards say.

 

[Green Zelda]

Do they beat ?

I think they beat all of them/go even with all but diddy, but you may want to check out the matchup threads of / in their character boards so you can make sure. But, like The Legendary DJXYZ said, you probably should wait for the patch before making any "final decisions".

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Ok so until that patch comes I won't confirm anything but right now I've narrowed it down to . It's still a lot but MUCH smaller than it was before.

 

[ＩＣＹ]

I don't want this patch, i hope they'll nerf Bayo and nothing more, maybe buff the but please, don't change the entire metagame again

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I don't think the patch will change much. Probably just buff some characters who need it like . Top tier i think would be nerfed a lot would be maybe. Don't worry it won't be much I don't think. I personally hope gets nerfed and [] get buffed

 

[Stylish pQuesadilla]

So, would it be a good idea to main Pikachu and Greninja together?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So, would it be a good idea to main Pikachu and Greninja together?

Oh yeah. Both are great and can handle who do well against . Also both beat so there's a big upside.

 

[C0rvus]

Meh. Pikachu and Greninja are of a similar power level, and both have high learning curves. They don't cover each others matchup spreads super well either. Greninja v Mario is pretty even.

I would say pick one and focus on them. Then maybe pick up the other or a simpler backup for your struggle matchups.

Both beating Bayonetta is a stretch and a lie pervaded by ESAM's propaganda team. Though, after the patch who can say?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So I know the patch is coming but Idc so I'm still struggle to pick a secondary for . It's not that I need one but more that I want one. I love playing aggressively and I love to edge guard. I want a character with good combos, kill power, recovery, and grabs, whether it's kill throws or combo throws of both. I tend to struggle against and in my region there are a lot of so I want a good option for them too. The choices are . Any advice?

 

[C0rvus]

Rosalina, Fox, Sheik and Dark Pit sound like your best choices.

Rosalina isn't very aggressive but she is very good at edgeguarding, and she covers Sonic, Mario, and Diddy. I don't think she fits quite as much in terms of what you enjoy, but she's a quick and dirty backup character with strong basic tools and a good matchup spread. Falcon, Yoshi, and Lucina are even-ish and Cloud is a loss, but she walls out a number of threats.

Fox is the best aggressor in the cast imo, due to silly frame data, mobility and frame traps/combos. He shouldn't be going offstage to gimp, but his ledge pressure is very simple and strong. His grab game is lacking, however. I notice a good deal of Fox players seem to like Roy, so maybe it works the other way as well? He also does well against Corrin and Diddy, and can deal with the rest as well.

Sheik is hard to recommend because of her very strict learning curve and the consistency she requires to beat good opponents with, but she is very strong. Her neutral is quite commanding, which translates to having control which in turn allows for aggression. Her edgeguarding is top notch, and her combos are quick and set up into edge guards. Again, hard to have an effective secondary Sheik, but if you're willing to put in the work, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Dark Pit has really good burst options, so he can play pretty aggro. He is also strong offstage and is a well-rounded character. He struggles with Diddy as much as Roy I would think, but he can win all those matchups. Recovery is long, good grab followups with a decent kill throw. Pretty easy to get started with, and really thrives off of fundamentals, since he doesn't really have any gimmicks.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Rosalina, Fox, Sheik and Dark Pit sound like your best choices.

Rosalina isn't very aggressive but she is very good at edgeguarding, and she covers Sonic, Mario, and Diddy. I don't think she fits quite as much in terms of what you enjoy, but she's a quick and dirty backup character with strong basic tools and a good matchup spread. Falcon, Yoshi, and Lucina are even-ish and Cloud is a loss, but she walls out a number of threats.

Fox is the best aggressor in the cast imo, due to silly frame data, mobility and frame traps/combos. He shouldn't be going offstage to gimp, but his ledge pressure is very simple and strong. His grab game is lacking, however. I notice a good deal of Fox players seem to like Roy, so maybe it works the other way as well? He also does well against Corrin and Diddy, and can deal with the rest as well.

Sheik is hard to recommend because of her very strict learning curve and the consistency she requires to beat good opponents with, but she is very strong. Her neutral is quite commanding, which translates to having control which in turn allows for aggression. Her edgeguarding is top notch, and her combos are quick and set up into edge guards. Again, hard to have an effective secondary Sheik, but if you're willing to put in the work, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Dark Pit has really good burst options, so he can play pretty aggro. He is also strong offstage and is a well-rounded character. He struggles with Diddy as much as Roy I would think, but he can win all those matchups. Recovery is long, good grab followups with a decent kill throw. Pretty easy to get started with, and really thrives off of fundamentals, since he doesn't really have any gimmicks.

What about ? Also I'm looking for the best option against since he is my worst matchup.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

RIP #BuffPuff
Well, you're officially a low tier main, FZPSC. If you'd like to be on the forefront of combating 20FF, choose .

 

[Stylish pQuesadilla]

So, I'm thinking of Greninja. After that, can I master Pikachu?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

RIP #BuffPuff
Well, you're officially a low tier main, FZPSC. If you'd like to be on the forefront of combating 20FF, choose .

What?

And Stylish pQuesadilla yeah work on one first then pick up the other after you've got a really good handle on them or mastered, then pick up the other age you can have 2

 

[Stylish pQuesadilla]

What?

And Stylish pQuesadilla yeah work on one first then pick up the other after you've got a really good handle on them or mastered, then pick up the other age you can have 2

Thanks. So I can use both?

 

[C0rvus]

You can do whatever works best for you, my man. You wanna try both? Won't know if you can handle it until you try.

Nice_FZPSC.42 well, Cloud is a toughie. Rosa loses to him, I know little about his Fox/Pit MU, but Sheik arguably beats him. A few characters have arguably even MUs (Diddy, Bayonetta, possibly Corrin, maybe Mega Man). I know nothing about ZSS or Marth versus Cloud, so I would check out the matchup threads on their respective character boards for some further insight.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Ok so after what I've heard I'm going to keepand also add after getting a 0-death with him. I could just deal with the ditto if need be. But I'm still in search. So here are the ones I've narrowed it down to. Again to be a secondary for . I would like to use 3 and if I use I'll also use but I'll count them as 1.
I might consider using is he is better than all my other options.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

My Opinion on the Current Metagame
There are top tiers, then there are high tiers, and then there's everyone else.
My current tier list has a 13 character top tier, an 11 character mid tier, a 20 character mid tier and a 9 character excuse for a low tier.

My Opinion on the "Bottom 5"
I think is viable, but needs a more refined metagame. He's currently well known as the King of Disrespect and is a nasty doubles choice, but is yet to find a real following among singles tournament players.
Nothing can save but a player who really devotes themself. She is better now than ever after 1.1.5, but those who play her better be up to the challenge of her heavily decisive playstyle.
, upon launch, was considered an instant top tier. He has never received a nerf. What happened?
Fun fact- has knocked me out of every tournament I've ever entered. They are always my first loss, without fail. Can't ask me why this character isn't viable, because obviously I have no idea.
has no weight, no ground speed, no strength, very short combos, and no range. In exchange, Puff gets the second highest air speed in the game, very good air control, six jumps, a Super Armor stance, a risky low-percent KO move, and unparalleled aerial frame data. Thus, Puff is inverse Little Mac. So if people treated it as such... maybe someday we'll see more respect for this classic character.

 

[C0rvus]

Okay, but what does that have to do with advice for picking a main, exactly?

Anyway. My question is about figuring out your own playstyle. I've been playing Smash for years and I cannot really say. So how would you guys go about figuring that out? There are a number of characters on the table and I'm trying to hone in on who would be best for me.

Other than seeming to prefer defense and good offstage game, I'm not sure what I am best at or suited to. What do?

 

[LordShade67]

, upon launch, was considered an instant top tier. He has never received a nerf. What happened?

Other sword characters being improved(, for example, was buffed in the same patch Roy was added in), as well as and being added invalidated .

 

[Lavani]

, upon launch, was considered an instant top tier. He has never received a nerf. What happened?

He wasn't nerfed directly, but he lost shield safety on tippers on the patch that changed shieldstun mechanics; meanwhile, the other Fire Emblem characters got damage, range, and end/landing lag buffs and he gradually lost reasons for people to pick him over other swordfighters (especially after presented a better "fast swordsman" option).

Issues such as his poor recovery/air accel and being rewarded less for spacing properly never went away either, and people eventually realized dthrow>Blazer can be airdodged/DI'd at the lower ends of kill percent and jumped out of past that.
That said I don't recall anyone reputable putting him higher than #20 even at release.

Fun fact- has knocked me out of every tournament I've ever entered. They are always my first loss, without fail. Can't ask me why this character isn't viable, because obviously I have no idea.

He's the kind of character that can crush you if you aren't familiar with fighting him, but lacks a coherent strategy if you don't play his game, and outside of fsmash gordo traps he doesn't have the explosive power heavies like DK or Bowser have (his other kill options are around the strength of things like Mario usmash/Mewtwo fair, while being a lot slower to both start and end).

Mainly he just lives forever so he gets lots of opportunities to feed on mistakes and sloppy play.

Puff gets [...] a Super Armor stance, [...] and unparalleled aerial frame data.

Puff doesn't have any moves with super armor and her aerial frame data is actually pretty awful, especially for its range.

Okay, but what does that have to do with advice for picking a main, exactly?

Anyway. My question is about figuring out your own playstyle. I've been playing Smash for years and I cannot really say. So how would you guys go about figuring that out? There are a number of characters on the table and I'm trying to hone in on who would be best for me.

Other than seeming to prefer defense and good offstage game, I'm not sure what I am best at or suited to. What do?

For me it's always been as simple as "I like to do <thing>, so I should pick a character that is able/gets to do <thing> a lot."

It might help to watch replays of yourself and pay attention to what you do (or don't) do in a given situation, or ask yourself what you'd be doing in that situation if you had any option in the game available to you. Or get someone else's opinion on all that, sometimes an outsider's view is helpful (what might look grab-heavy to someone else might just seem normal to you, for example).

 

[KniteBlargh]

C0rvus Basically what Lavani said. I've literally had people yell things at me like "You keep getting grabs!", when all I was thinking about were the grabs I had missed, and not necessarily about how much I was grabbing, either. LOL Very useful getting outside opinions. (Though, since I main Jiggs, I must be confused in the matter myself, ohoho. )

Man, all this talk about Jiggs burns my soul... But there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

First off is no where near bottom 5, is high tier imo, and no lower than mid tier. He will kill you at 30. Just with a hard read and a charged f smash or neutral b. Yes there's some bias but I've talked to pros like ZeRo and Nairo on there streams and they've said he's mid tier. He doesn't have range and his recovery is mediocre and he's a fast faller, but his combos, punishes, edge guarding skills, dominating pressure, counter, and KO power make him very hard to beat. He looses to spacers who can fight well up close too. He does good against everyone else. His bad MUs are only . That's it. He's not bad. He underused.

C0rvus to find your playstyle you have to look at what you do mostly by nature and what you have fun with. For me I grab, combo, and get up in your face a lot and I love dominating. So I can easily tell I play aggressive. Even playing zoners like
I was being aggressive. Play characters with different play styles and see which one you end up trying to use.

As for top tiers there's 15. This what I think and I've looked at tier lists and videos pros have made too. There's another 15-20 ish high tiers. Then there's a ton of mid tiers but everything below high tier is arguable and can't confirm anything beside bottom 5 looking something like . Idk it's all arguable. If you wanna know the most agreed on for top 15 among pros is (not in order) . You could also argue but results are lacking so eh.

Any way back on topic I'm still looking for 2 others to go with . The choices are And maybe . I like but feel like they're to technical to be played as a secondary. Unless told otherwise I don't plan on using them. Any tips/ help on narrowing down any more?

 

[C0rvus]

Thanks for the advice as always, folks. Once my job stops being a daily affair, back on the grind I go. Atm I know I like mobility mixups or cool b-reverses and I like to shield a lot LOL. Oh, and offstage safety is good. I need some sort of clutch factor.

Also Roy is nowhere near high tier. It's good to have faith in your character but that's a bit beyond. Roy will almost never kill a competent player at 30. It should not be a factor in a competitive match. Honestly Roy has a pretty hard time getting kills against a smart player because of how close he has to be or how hard he has to commit to a read otherwise. He is among the easiest characters in the game to combo period, yet his punish game doesn't bridge the gap as much as it probably should.

Don't get me wrong, but he is probably in low tier, simply because someone has to be, and there are so many characters that I am confident are better than him.

Also Dedede has a pretty good MU against Marth, Roy, and Lucina. So that likely makes it that much more difficult for you to deal with him. You could always pick up a character that can just camp him to death. If I'm struggling with a heavy, I'll bust out Robin and make them hate themselves

 

[Green Zelda]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while:

Is solo-maining a character truly the most optimal thing to do? I once believed it was, but now we've hit a point in the smash 4 metagame in which every character has at least 1 losing matchup. Wouldn't using 2 characters be the best thing to do now?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while:

Is solo-maining a character truly the most optimal thing to do? I once believed it was, but now we've hit a point in the smash 4 metagame in which every character has at least 1 losing matchup. Wouldn't using 2 characters be the best thing to do at this point?

It depends on the character. If you're using a top or even high tier then you don't need to worry since they can handle every matchup in the game for the most part. And yes everyone has atleast 1 losing matchup but if you solo main then you have a much better understanding of the character and you can learn the bad matchup and what to do when in it. Some mid tiers you can do this too. Really any character you can solo main but you'll have viability problems. Solo main ingredient have a lot of advantages. The only disadvantage is that you've got 1 character. So if someone can beat that character with ease then you're in trouble. Dual-maining give you the factor of 2 character, aergo 2 match ups which is harder to dominate, but you won't get as much practice time with them.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Green Zelda Hmmm, I think that really depends... Obviously your chances should be better as a solo-main using a character from high to top, but we're living in this bizarre age where people like Kameme/Kamemushi are getting better results sticking to characters like Mega Man who were previously viewed as not even viable solo-main picks, even going up against MUs that are considered unfavourable. My personal opinion is that it's a great idea to have some kind of backup plan just in case, or to test the waters when it's safe to do so, but we have to keep in mind the fact that another player's understanding of their character and creativity of play may simply outdo a counter-pick, so relying on a MU may not be quite enough. Food for thought.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Green Zelda Hmmm, I think that really depends... Obviously your chances should be better as a solo-main using a character from high to top, but we're living in this bizarre age where people like Kameme/Kamemushi are getting better results sticking to characters like Mega Man who were previously viewed as not even viable solo-main picks, even going up against MUs that are considered unfavourable. My personal opinion is that it's a great idea to have some kind of backup plan just in case, or to test the waters when it's safe to do so, but we have to keep in mind the fact that another player's understanding of their character and creativity of play may simply outdo a counter-pick, so relying on a MU may not be quite enough. Food for thought.

A good back up plan could be to have a pocket. Not even a secondary just a pocket. A good example of this is you could main . But he gets bodied by so you have a pocket to win that MU or a pocket to beat her and . Abadango does this. He uses but also has to beat .

I really like but I feel like they're to complicated and to trchnical for me to use. Should I still try to use them? They'd be second main at best.
Also I'm going to consider if it turns out he's the best choice. I'm not considering anymore. I'm still looking at And maybe