The Lucas DI Survival Guide

[Tokaio]

The Lucas DI Survival Guide

Look at that broken U-tilt.​

Okay, this is going to be a guide that's gonna take a load of time, but hopefully I'll get some help, and finish it . Basically, what I want to do is some testing on different characters, and see at what percentage they will be killed by Lucas' moves. I will be doing this in Training mode, meaning all moves will be fresh. The moves will be his main kill moves and are as follows:
F-smash
D-smash (all 3 hits)
U-smash
F-tilt (sweetspot + sourspot)
U-tilt
D-throw
B-throw
F-throw
F-air
U-air
D-throw --> U-tilt
D-air --> D-tilt

They will be tested on Yoshi's Island, on the side and center. Since, the ceiling height is the same, and the sides are almost the same, you can assume that these will be the kill percentages for the 4 neutrals. The reason why I'm doing this is to see when you the kill move is rewarding or not. For example, say you pulled off a D-tilt lock. And you are D-tilting the character across the stage, and you get to the end. If you know the information in this guide, you will know when you can kill with the guaranteed F-smash, or, if you can't,you can go in for the U-smash to kill, but have a chance of missing.

Since attacks can be done in different ways, I'll be doing:
- Grabs with no pummels
-Smashes both charged and uncharged
-I'll try to make the moves so that they hit with sweetspot.

I will be doing this in tier list order, so if you would like to help (hopefully you do ) do it at least a few characters down from my update, or just notify me which character you're doing.

The way I'll be doing "perfect" DI is by using the character's fastest aerial, and either fastfalling (for vertical), and jumping (for horizontal). If the character has a momentum cancel, I will use it (e.g. G&W's Bucket Braking). I'll try to get at least some data each week.


Next 3 pages will have data.

Log:
1/1/2010: Added some data on Snake

 

[Tokaio]

Kill Percentages​

Snake​

F-smash (Uncharged)

No DI:
Center of YI - 88%
Side of YI - 58%

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


F-smash (Charged)

No DI:
Center of YI - 56%
Side of YI - 33%

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (1st Uncharged)

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI - 64%

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (2nd Uncharged)

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (3rd Uncharged)

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (1st Charged)

No DI:
Center of YI - 56%
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (2nd Charged)

No DI:
Center of YI - 81%
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


D-smash (3rd Charged)

No DI:
Center of YI - 120%
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


U-smash (Uncharged)

No DI:
Center of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -


U-smash (Charged)

No DI:
Center of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -


F-tilt (Sourspot)

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


F-tilt (Sweetspot)

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


U-tilt

No DI:
Center of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -


D-throw

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -


B-throw

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


F-throw

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -


F-air

No DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -
Side of YI -

U-air

No DI:
Center of YI -

With DI:
Center of YI -

Extra Info:

D-throw --> U-tilt
No DI:
With DI:

Dair --> D-tilt

-​

 

[Tokaio]

Reserved....

 

[Tokaio]

Another reserve?

Okay, so what do you guys think? And what do you guys think of the "perfect" DI? I B-stick, so I usually only momentum cancel with Fair, so I don't know which is best for those who set C-stick to smash.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Resever for PSIence

 

[HelpR]

a good question would actually be, which move would best be used for momentum canceling?

for example, according to frame data, nair has the second fastest first hit, and the quickest ending frame, tieing with bair. fair is actually a good bit slower then this

dair has the quickest first hit (by a frame, and while that probably wouldn't make a huge difference, who knows,) and due to dair on the c-stick causing one to fast fall, however, it's the longest aerial.

which of the aerials should be used to DI? I DI using fair and bair, and while I think they suffice, if either nair and dair makes a significant difference, i'd gladly start using either.

oh, this is also a bit of a nubbish question, but in terms of momentum canceling, should one use a different attack to momentum cancel attacks, like, let's say, metaknights up smash to snake's uptilt. meaning, if I were to momentum cancel using dair or uair against utilt, would that have a significant different in knockback (as in increased) compared to using nair, fair, or bair.

I do realize i'm nitpicking a bit here, but momentum canceling easily makes the difference between dieing about 20% later then if one hadnt, and using the right move may actually increase the survivability a bit.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The object of DI is to perform a fastfall, you can fastfall an aerial as soon as possible, so therefore you don't have to worry about start-up frames. However, the next object for Lucas is to double jump if he is hit horizontal to make the trajectory longer. So in essence, you want to use the aerial that will cancel the fastest, which is b-air. If b-stick that will be hard to do, so n-air or f-air to fastfall will suffice well.

 

[Tokaio]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8565316&postcount=4

Amazing Ampharos is amazing.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Question, how are we going to analyze attacks such as aerials or ROB's U-smash that don't hit people on the ground?

 

[Tokaio]

I'm gonna try to do this so that I always get hit by the sweetspot, so I guess just jump.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So we'll SH to get hit by the sweetspot or what? We need a method that will work for all of them...

 

[xoxokev]

this is going to be a very long list. good luck with this

 

[T-block]

I'm gonna make a suggestion...

Don't waste your time with arbitrary numbers like this. I don't see how knowing when you're gonna die to MK's f-throw from the centre of FD with no DI is going to help you in the matchup. It'd be far more productive to look at when Lucas' moves will KO certain characters on certain stages, so you can properly judge the risk-reward of going for that u-smash, for example. I've been meaning to do this for PT for a while - I think it's more useful and fits better on a character-specific board. DI survival is pretty universal anyhow... I can't think of anything that would make Lucas' optimal survival strategy much different from any other character.

 

[HailCrest]

Somehow I feel that Lucas' Uair gives him some downward momentum after he uses it sort of like Ivysaur's Uair... does that help?

 

[Phillyfanboy]

Awesome Guide, Ineed to work on my DI. So B-air is the fastest air? Cool, will have to use it and lose my habit of not DIing.

 

[orange/xd]

is Uair better than Fair to use as a sort of momentum cancel?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I believe that it doesn't matter veritcally, but it does matter horizontally because you can procede to double jump to cancel momentum more efficiently and to make you go to the corner more, so the fastest aerial will be the one that should be used.

 

[cloudenvy112]

I don't know if anyone else has done this, but I've DI'd to the point that when facing a ZSS, I've survived to 200+%. Here's the link for the video to show:
http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=23461

This doesn't normally happen to me. Normally when I momentum cancel, I use Fair and Nair interchangeably. I'll see if using the Bair will work to my advantage.

 

[Tokaio]

I'm gonna make a suggestion...

Don't waste your time with arbitrary numbers like this. I don't see how knowing when you're gonna die to MK's f-throw from the centre of FD with no DI is going to help you in the matchup. It'd be far more productive to look at when Lucas' moves will KO certain characters on certain stages, so you can properly judge the risk-reward of going for that u-smash, for example. I've been meaning to do this for PT for a while - I think it's more useful and fits better on a character-specific board. DI survival is pretty universal anyhow... I can't think of anything that would make Lucas' optimal survival strategy much different from any other character.

This actually does make much more sense lol. Does anybody wanna make any suggestions as to what I should do? First of all, would anybody use what I'm doing right now? Which would be more helpful...what T-block suggested? or what I'm doing right now?

Sorry I responded to this so late lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This actually does make much more sense lol. Does anybody wanna make any suggestions as to what I should do? First of all, would anybody use what I'm doing right now? Which would be more helpful...what T-block suggested? or what I'm doing right now?

Sorry I responded to this so late lol.

I think that would should find KO percents on opponets on our bad stages first.

 

[Tokaio]

I think that would should find KO percents on opponets on our bad stages first.

..What do you mean? So you're saying we should find out at what percents, say U-smash, would kill Metaknight? Why the bad stages? Wouldn't it make more sense to do it on our good stages?

EDIT: Sorry...I should have discussed this with the Lucas community earlier.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well, we already do good on our good stages, but we need to know more when people try to counterpick against us so we don't epicly suck on some stages. I also think we should do this for bad MU's first. So Snake and Marth would go first.

 

[Tokaio]

Okay...so now on to the moves I'm going to use for Lucas. Obviously I'm going to use all the Smashes.
I should probably do all throws, except U-throw? I believe D-throw kills earlier than U-throw.
Which aerials should I do? F-air and U-air? I'll put F-tilt. I don't usually kill with U-tilt...Should I put specials?
I'll also add at what percentages D-throw ==> U-tilt just works. Any other things I should add?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So you're going to want to put:

F-tilt (Sweetspot and Sourspot)
U-tilt (Sweetspot)
U-smash (Strong hit. Lingering hitboxes would be nice too, but that's hard to get judged... I can try haxing it so it's easier to jump into)
F-smash
D-smash (All hits)
F-air
U-air

I'll try to get the d-throw to u-tilt w/ DI stuff for each character next time I get together with my friends.

 

[Tokaio]

...Sourspot F-tilt? o_o Does that really have much power? Yeah, okay that seems manageable. I'll add in D-throw too.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'd like to know when both kill so that way it's safe to kill go make sure, because you can't always sweetspot.

 

[Tokaio]

Oh..okay. I'll try starting this next weekend. I don't know if I'll be doing this with all the stages...but what do you guys want me to start out with? I was thinking either one of the 3 main neutrals, FD/BF/SV...but Rocket suggested to do it with one of our bad stages...so which do you guys want me to start with?

 

[HailCrest]

Don't forget Dthrow and Bthrow!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think we should do YI b/c it's considered to be a neutral nearly everywhere and it's agreed to be one of our worst stages.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Should we also have the DI done towards the edges too?

I think you should start with Snake

Edit: Crap double post...

 

[Tokaio]

Yeah...I'll definitely start with Snake. It'd be interesting to see how long he really can live >_<. But chances are we'll strike Yoshi's Island first...Same with Lylat Cruise. I was thinking more of the 3 common neutrals (i.e. Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville). Does anybody have any opinion on this or do they really not care lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Still, the point is we should know our bad stages really well, so we don't really suck horribly on them, incase we get CP'd or whatever.

 

[T-block]

YI (middle) and FD have the same ceiling height =P Unless you feel like doing the top platform, you might as well test on FD. I'm in the middle of running these tests with PT - I should have the first version of the OP up within a week-ish so you can take a look at that when it's up.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Cool, but the sides are different ... if it's the same, you can just copy paste that into FD.

 

[T-block]

Yeah I suppose, but the difference will be 1% or 2% at best. Some of these values are likely to have an error of 1% or 2% anwyays, unless you're aiming for perfectly accurate values, but that seems like more trouble than it's worth. When people read these values, they should be viewing them as a minimum anyways, so it's okay if your numbers are just slightly too high for the sides as opposed to the middle.

Anyways, my point was you don't need to test on FD/BF/SV/YI separately - they all have the same ceiling height.

 

[HailCrest]

Brawl takes decimals into account when using percentages so there are going to be rooms of error anyway

If you're going to VS mode, use only one stale move to rack up damage. e.g. "This guy died after I usmashed him after 20 stale ftilts."

Kinda silly suggestion, but meh.

 

[Tokaio]

Wait...do you guys want me to do it in Training mode or VS mode? And Rocket, are you still going to do the How to DI out of multi-hit moves?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Nah, I think I'm just going to do d-throw to u-tilt when I get a chance.