The Logistics of Alternate Controllers

[clubbadubba]

I'm not sure if people who didn't attend COA 6 are aware, but there was a pretty big issue with regards to timeliness involving alternate controllers at the tournament this past weekend. Essentially the keyboard adapters were NOT set up and ready to go at the time the tournament started (roughly 6 PM). Instead they were not ready until 4 or 5 hours later. Star King played his first match on controller, Killer did not, and eventually it got to the point where the entire bracket was held up because 2 players did not have their controllers ready. Aside from the time delay, a few other things sucked about this. In the time it took for Star King and Killer to get their adapters ready, SmellyCat could probably have gone home, grabbed an Xbox controller, come back, and used the same adapter, which seems a bit unfair from Smelly's perspective imo. Also, the 2 opponents that had to wait 4-5 hours to play those matches ended up being 2 people that were actually part of our 64 group, Firo's friend Cal (aka GrizzlyBear online back in the day) and Boom's friend Liz (SpaceCasey). It was both of their first tournaments, and while the overall experience may have been fun, I can't imagine that the tournament itself was much of a positive factor.

In a relatively small (yet incredibly stacked) tournament like COA 6, we managed to deal with this. We were waiting for melee to finish on stream anyway, so its not like getting to that point of the tournament any faster was going to get anyone to go home any earlier. However, what if something like this happens at Apex? Sometimes things break, sometimes the people who set these things up are eating, sleeping, or god forbid playing their own tournament matches. How are we going to deal with this if it happens on a larger scale? If you decide you can wait 1+ hour for 1 person to be ready to play, doesn't that mean you have to give everyone the same amount of time to show up before they are DQ'd?

2 questions I'd like to ask to all and I will also give my suggestions to those questions:

1) What do we do at a major tournament when an alternate controller setup breaks?

2) How can we minimize this sort of fiasco from happening at a major tournament?


1) Well I guess we've already seen on some level the answer to this with Near at Apex 2014... the player uses an N64 controller. However, in Near's case, there was a problem with the setup that could not be fixed on the spot, so no matter how long we waited he wasn't going to get to play on his xbox controller. But at COA 6, there were a couple of issues, all of which were fixable, but just took some time. One adapter was in the wrong location (like on the main stream, which we couldn't readily remove because they were streaming). One adapter wasn't set up on time and both of the people capable of setting something up (pidge and bloodpeach) were playing their own tournament matches. As I understand it, one or both of the adapters was broken and bloodpeach had to run out to get some emergency parts. All of these were fixed in time, but we just don't have the time to wait for all those things to be fixed at Apex.

• We need a set time limit once a match is called for it to be played. This should be a constant time limit regardless of whether its an issue of showing up on time, or having equipment malfunctions.
• If for some reason TO's deem it reasonable to hold off on a match until the equipment arrives or is fixed, then they need to set a DEFINITE postponement time, because its not fair to ask these players opponents who arrived on time with working equipment to have to wait 3 hours wondering when they will play their match. Tell them to be ready again in an hour or two

2) I think the people capable of setting up these adapters have done the best they can to get these things ready to go on time. Bloodpeach went out and got spare parts at COA 6 when he could have been having fun. Karajan woke up much earlier than he needed to at Apex to help Killer get set up for MELEE. Both of them and Pidge have taken the time to get these adapters working. From what I can see, there hasn't been a lot of pro-activity from the side of the actual adapter users. If you are planning on using an adapter in a tournament, you and you alone are responsible for having it set up and ready to go by the time you need to play your games. Don't expect Karajan/Bloodpeach/Pidge to seek out when you have to play games and have everything set up for you. Be on top of your own schedule, and make sure you have your adapter in place on a useable set up before you need to play any games.

tl;dr
Alternative adapters need to be set up on time at future tournaments. Players need to be accountable for this getting done, not the creators of the adapters. Time limits to resolve issues with this equipment need to be put in place

Hope this isn't too harsh, I am 100% in support of using alternative adapters and I think we all appreciate the work that those creating these adapters put in not only at the tournaments but prior to them as well. We just need to try to avoid situations like this in the future.

 

[Han Solo]

When a match is called and a setup is available, the two players usually have 15 minutes (TO's discretion) to start their match before a TO DQs one or both of them. There should not be any exceptions to this.

 

[Morin0]

The problem with the adapter is that you have to enter in a bunch of scripts to get it started. You have to do this every single time you turn it on. It's a pain in the ass. However, Karajan said that he has updated – said that he would have it done before Japan if he doesn't get bored – the adapter software so that it boots straight into the program and it will also remember the last known controller config. This significantly improves the time it takes to set it up, and it will be more portable now since you're now not afraid to move it to another setup because you have to set it up all over again. UNFORTUNATELY, Karajan got banned here, and has apparently removed everyone (that I know of) from Skype. I guess I can get a hold of him on Facebook to ask if this update is available.

As for hardware failures like Pidge's BBB board, that is something that you should prepare for in case it happens like bringing a 64 controller like I did for Apex.


I own an adapter now, so at Apex I will be prepared by being able to troubleshoot my own adapter and have a 64 controller in case my adapter goes poopy.

 

[pidgezero_one]

A couple of notes:

• The hardware failure with my second adapter was known ahead of time. This adapter has been short-circuiting N64s since Flaoc 4, which was in August. I had one adapter ready to go before the Melee bracket even started.
• In fact, the reason I brought the broken adapter was because Jacob had a board to swap for mine. The issue was that he had run the installation based on Karajan's old guide, and not the text file that Near and I have been sending everyone based on Karajan's skype conversation with myself when I was building adapters that are currently working. Jacob could not have possibly known this since he doesn't own a LCD cape with which to see what was even installed on the board. This was resolved when we came up with the idea to just copy the installed libraries from my broken adapter onto his board, since I came prepared with a micro SD pre-configured to flash the correct Ubuntu installation onto a board, but it took us a while to come up with that one lol. Had we had access to the venue's router I could have had the second board completely configured and running in half an hour's time, but having to do some Frankenstein **** with the adapters was known beforehand.
• The wait for Star King's match was caused by someone tripping over the equipment and tearing out wires on my n64 cable, which I haven't had to adjust in almost 3 months. This happened near the setup we had going by the couches in the modern console part of the arcade, where I could barely see 5 feet in front of my own face let alone on the floor, and Jimmyjoe had to use his phone's flashlight so I could even see what I was doing to be able to replace the cable. I honestly believe this would not have happened if people could see where they were walking, since I even had the adapters taped down to the table near the stream setup so people couldn't **** them up. I had somewhat anticipated this happening, which is why I brought along a spare N64 cable x_x
• Jacob has written scripts that significantly reduce the time it takes to run startup scripts. However, startup scripts on my working adapter are not that difficult to run since the board remembers your previous inputs from the last time you ran it, and I just had to mash the up arrow a bunch of times (though it helps that I already know the script order). This takes about 30 seconds to do, but Jacob's scripts are much more intuitive and require less navigating, so I plan on popularizing those in the future when I send out adapter instructions.
• We actually did try to convince Smellycat to join, my working adapter was already configured to work with xbox since I was mistakenly anticipating Funk showing up.
• A big problem was lack of POWER OUTLETS. The whole reason I set up the adapters near the stream originally was because at least they had a power strip. I use AC powered USB hubs with my adapters to easily switch keyboards without running the risk of someone ****ing up the adapter wiring by yanking it out or whatever, plus Killer's PS2 to USB adapter would not have fit beneath the LCD4 screen.

Jacob and I both knew that there were most likely going to be problems, especially given that we had to replace a broken board with an old one, and did or best to prepare for the foreseeable ones so things could get up and running as fast as possible. All in all the adapter issues were a series of freak accidents and unusual circumstances that I wouldn't expect to all be happening at the same tournament. At larger tournaments like Apex there will be more people than just myself who will be bringing adapters which will make logistics much simpler, however that doesn't make things any better for tournaments that only have one or two of us supplying. Here is what I think should happen:

• If someone is coming who has an adapter, make sure at least one person has a spare micro SD card with the ubuntu flasher pre-installed on it, a mini-usb (not micro-usb) cable, a power strip, and a pair of wire strippers. All of these things are very easy to obtain.
• Jacob and I should find a way to make the libraries needed for adapter scripts much easier to download without needing direct ethernet access to a router, such that anyone with a laptop can ssh the files onto a fresh BBB ubuntu installation. This will make it so that we don't have to go through that level of brainstorming and troubleshooting again and we can standardize adapter re-flashing to take a fairly predictable amount of time, if necessary.
• For the love of god turn the lights on and secure the adapters to a surface.
• Do you have a broken controller that is not worth repairing? Chop the cable off and keep it around! There is no difference between a 3rd party and 1st party controller when it comes to using the cable for adapter wiring, so there is lots of material we can work with.
• Test your adapters beforehand. At CoA this was not possible for obvious reasons, but the majority of the time it should be.

I suppose the adage "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong" rang true more than ever at CoA, but I think it's very clear what can be done to make it more streamlined and easier to troubleshoot.

 

[SheerMadness]

It's on the player. If they're relying on someone else to provide an adapter for them that's their fault.

DQ for sure.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I should also add that N64 wires are very fickle. Both first party and third party controllers use copper cable strands instead of breadboard-style wires. I usually have to chop off about 1 inch of casing, fold the exposed wire in half, and twist it so that it will even enter the breadboard ports on the board. Even then there is no way to secure it, but since you bend 2 of the wires on the LCD cape orthogonally so that the n64 wires can even fit, I just try to squish it onto the board as tightly as possible so that there's too much friction for the cables to move around, but even then that's no match for people ****ing tripping over it.

So another suggestion from is is KNOW WHERE THE CABLES GO, AND KNOW HOW TO RECOGNIZE WHICH ONE IS THE PROBLEM! If the n64 graphics are crashing that means your black cable is not in properly. If your controller is not even being recognized on the character select screen that means your white cable is not in properly. This means you will either have to turn off the adapter, take the screen out, and push the cables in further OR chop them a little shorter and twist them like I described above, and then replace the screen (hard enough to do with wires that are not secured) and turn it back on AND run all the scripts again. This is a HUGE waste of time, so PLEASE SECURE YOUR ADAPTERS TO A SURFACE!

 

[The Star King]

Also, the 2 opponents that had to wait 4-5 hours to play those matches ended up being 2 people that were actually part of our 64 group, Firo's friend Cal (aka GrizzlyBear online back in the day) and Boom's friend Liz (SpaceCasey). It was both of their first tournaments, and while the overall experience may have been fun, I can't imagine that the tournament itself was much of a positive factor.

I offered to Cal to play on controller, he said he'll wait and Pidge/bloodpeach said they might as well fix it now for later. I hope people don't think I forced him to wait to his displeasure or something, I was prepared to play on controller if he didn't want to wait so long or if it would significantly delay the tournament, neither of which was the case. Also pretty sure it was nowhere near 4-5 hours but yeah.

Also it's @SpaceC4se

 

[Nintendude]

I think in the past I've forced certain players to use N64 controllers because I was fed up with how long it was taking them to set up their adapters. At Apex, there will be even less tolerance for long setup times. Luckily though, the stations your matches will be played on will be known in advance, so there should be time to prepare.

The fact that adapters need their own power outlets is a logistical challenge. When we do venue layouts we make sure we have enough power strips for the planned setups. If there are no extra outlets for an adapter,that's not our problem. I'm going to recommend that players who need adapters carry an extension cord and power strip with them.

 

[Shears]

I agree with clubba. It is the responsibility of those using the adapters to know how to work it, set it up, configure it, etc. They have 15 minutes to get the adapter working for a match, if they can't they need to play with a 64 controller, if they don't want to then they DQ. If everything pidge said is true, then there is no need to worry about it again, but that doesn't mean the enforced rule shouldn't exist. If COA was just a freak accident, then there is no concern that a player will be DQ, but let it be known that if a freak accident happens then they either need to play on a classic controller or take the loss.

 

[Nintendude]

15 minutes is too generous. 5 minutes is reasonable. 10 minutes absolute max.

 

[Shears]

Either way, a time limit is needed.

 

[pidgezero_one]

What I think should happen is have 1 or 2 setups that are dedicated setups for adapter users. These things are not easily portable. Say you have 8 TVs in a row, if someone like Killer has to play on TV 1 one match and then TV 8 the next match, he'll have to unplug everything and move it, boot it back up, and run all the scripts again because the cords simply are not that long. I'm not saying that certain setups should only be used by adapter users, but when an adapter user needs to play a match have them do it on the same setups every time if possible. At my locals I keep my adapters set up between 2 TVs so its just a matter of moving the N64 cable plug from one console to the one beside it and not having to unplug everything and move it which is just a waste of time.

(because once again I am not going to be at apex so that's one less person who can help out with adapter stuff, I'm giving mine to YBOMBB to bring to apex, and anyone who knows YBOMBB well will understand why i am not teaching him how to set up adapters)

 

[kys]

When I saw the title of this thread it made me think about those stupid UPS logistics commercials, which then brought me down the rabbit hole to thinking about desynch and kaillera, which made me think about how I should get a new xbox controller and get back online, which made me think about how Clubba unknowingly persuaded me to spend money and pick up an old hobby, which made me think about the determinism vs. free will debates and how if we knew everything someone could have predicted this to happen.

Agree 100% with Clubba, btw

 

[Shears]

When I saw the title of this thread it made me think about those stupid UPS logistics commercials, which then brought me down the rabbit hole to thinking about desynch and kaillera, which made me think about how I should get a new xbox controller and get back online, which made me think about how Clubba unknowingly persuaded me to spend money and pick up an old hobby, which made me think about the determinism vs. free will debates and how if we knew everything someone could have predicted this to happen.

Agree 100% with Clubba, btw

You have no control. You are playing this game whether you like it or not. You are here not because you chose to be here, you are here because you have to be here. You are a ball rolling down a hill. Welcome to the Matrix.

 

[Annex]

What is the point of that philosophy

Ooh, what if when you guys argued these things you listed all the positives and negatives to the proposed change and then refuted those positives/negatives specifically and then refuted those and so on and charted the whole thing in a graph in the op

 

[Morin0]

(because once again I am not going to be at apex so that's one less person who can help out with adapter stuff

R.I.P. picture of both nears

 

[bloodpeach]

The adapters are fast and easy to use if they don't have to move. They were set up by the stream because we were told 64 would be streamed at the start of the tourney. This changed for some reason, most 64 matches ended up in a dark, table-less corner, where people where constantly stepping over them. It was a recipe for disaster.

Literally every problem with the adapters at COA could have been solved by having them at a real setup.

P.S. Killer vs SpaceC4se was intentionally delayed by the TOs (i.e. me) to mimimize the time the adapters spent unused and unguarded. It wasn't enough as in the 15 minutes I wasn't watching them someone managed to step on and break both adapters, requiring me and pidge to do surgery in the dark. Which was the cause of the delay for Cal vs StarKing.

P.P.S. The adapters WERE set up on time for the 64 bracket. Pidge and I were well aware that one needed repair, and frankly it was only a concern for a hypothetical SK vs Killer. And it was ready before the 64 setups were even put together. A lot of the accusations in here are completely unfair.

 

[Mechageo]

Sorry to sound ignorant (I am, though) but what are these adapters and why are they needed? I gathered what I could from the posts in this thread, but I'm still unclear. Are XBOX controllers tournament legal in some cases? What's going on?

 

[clubbadubba]

@ bloodpeach , I really tried not to call anyone out in this thread aside from telling adapter players themselves to be more involved in the process, but it sounds like you think I did end up calling people out. This was not meant to be an accusation or an attack, but rather a forum to discuss how to prevent these issues in the future and how to deal with them if they do somehow arise.

I was not 100% aware of the cause of all the delay, but this discussion has helped answer that, thank you pidge and bloodpeach for the information and suggestions. If any of the information in the OP is incorrect I apologize, but again thanks for clearing it all up. Bloodpeach it sounds from what you're saying that there was a miscommunication somewhere along the line between the TO's themselves or between a TO and one of us. Seems like for future events with adapters it would make sense for us to contact TO's well before the tournament and make sure they have a plan for where adapters can be set up. I think that would be a good addition to answer my 2nd question in the OP. Fortunately for Apex the TO's are already aware of these adapters and hopefully plans will be made in advance to avoid something similar to COA 6.

Sorry to sound ignorant (I am, though) but what are these adapters and why are they needed? I gathered what I could from the posts in this thread, but I'm still unclear. Are XBOX controllers tournament legal in some cases? What's going on?

There are adapters that can be used to plug in alternate controllers such as keyboards, xbox controllers, ps2/3 controllers, etc. There are very few of these as they have been completely developed and manufactured by members of this community. As far as I know, at every console tournament these controllers are legal provided that no macros (multiple button commands are called from pressing one button) are involved and the button mapping is 1 to 1 with a 64 controller (i.e. you can't map both the joystick and dpad of an xbox controller to point to the joystick of the n64 controller, and then use the dpad to di but the joystick to move). Some players in the community learned this game by playing online, and didn't use an n64 controller to do so, and so they are much better players when they get to use their primary controller.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I actually heard that bracket was delayed because Madrush was being picked up from the airport, which is why I thought i wasn't in a rush with the adapters. Guess we all had conflicting info x_x

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

(because once again I am not going to be at apex so that's one less person who can help out with adapter stuff, I'm giving mine to YBOMBB to bring to apex, and anyone who knows YBOMBB well will understand why i am not teaching him how to set up adapters)

lmfao ohhh buddio..