The Logic Behind "Brawl is easier than Melee"

[NoVaLombardia]

I think that this is just the way games are heading nowadays. As games are becoming more mainstream than they used to be, they have to compensate for the people who are only able to play for an hour or two a day. Lets use FPS games as an example. Back in the day, the main FPS competition game was the incredibly fast and technical quake 3.

Quake 2 was far more technical and an overall better game. Also had better mods :D
Only thing about Q3 i enjoy is tremulous mod.

BTW, i blow at melee and i think its > Brawl

 

[Catmunnies]

this is false


this actually does happen. people that were good at melee are generally better at brawl too


the biggest problem i have with brawl isn't that it's easier, it's that it's boring to play. you can't improvise combos anymore and playing defensive just sucks. brawl's like a peach ditto

You just don't get it.

1. Yeah, people who were good in melee are generally better in brawl, but when brawl first came out, we were all n00bs. It didn't matter if you were a pro in melee, you could still get beaten by a n00b.

2. The only reason why it may seem like the gap between pros and n00bs is smaller than it was in melee is because with the smashbros. dojo, online play, and smashboards and youtube becoming more and more popular, people are getting better in brawl faster than they did in melee.

Basically,the only n00bs who play brawl are the ones who want to be n00bs, and the ones who can't access the internet.

 

[arrowhead]

You just don't get it.

1. Yeah, people who were good in melee are generally better in brawl, but when brawl first came out, we were all n00bs. It didn't matter if you were a pro in melee, you could still get beaten by a n00b.

2. The only reason why it may seem like the gap between pros and n00bs is smaller than it was in melee is because with the smashbros. dojo, online play, and smashboards and youtube becoming more and more popular, people are getting better in brawl faster than they did in melee.

Basically,the only n00bs who play brawl are the ones who want to be n00bs, and the ones who can't access the internet.

1. lots of skills carried on from melee to brawl, such as correct spacing and ability to adapt. noobs had none of these so could not have beaten pros even on their first game

2. no, it's because there's no longer a technical requirement to be good. the game is also less complicated. the pro has less options to **** so the noob has an easier time.

 

[TheManaLord]

oops will edit inpost in a sec

I think the brawl being easier is ALL about the technical game, seriously. In melee somebody getting into the scene is overwhelmed by how many universal and necessary techniques there are. They have to be mastered and they are used ALL THE TIME. In brawl, the amount of techniques available to noobs and to competitive players are relatively close. There are a few characters specific techs in Brawl but nothing that needs to be used consistently and all the time. Nothing that difficult to work into your game.


It's the technicality of melee that makes it such a hard and deep game, which is why brawl seems shallow and easy thus far.

 

[Catmunnies]

1. lots of skills carried on from melee to brawl, such as correct spacing and ability to adapt. noobs had none of these so could not have beaten pros even on their first game

2. no, it's because there's no longer a technical requirement to be good. the game is also less complicated. the pro has less options to **** so the noob has an easier time.

You still don't get it.

You can learn correct spacing and the ablility to adapt from any game and maybe even on your own without help from competitive player, and the lack of techs in brawl doesn't matter. Skill has no limits.

Lets say you put two smashers against each other, and they both have been playing brawl for 2 months. P1 knows about spacing, DIing, doing moves out your shield, and he or she knows a decent number of ATs for every character, while P2 has been living under a rock, and knows nothing about competitive play. Now, it may not look as cool as it would in melee, but the result would be the same.

P1 would wreck P2, and P2 had no chance of winning.

There's your skill difference, right there.

And I don't care if you dissagree, because you'd still be wrong.

 

[orintemple]

If you did not have good tech skill, you did not win against someone who did unless you hd the mindgames to compensate (which has only happened once)..

When was this? What event are you referring to?

 

[Urb]

Huh. I just thought Brawl was easier because it has an "instantly win the game" button option.

 

[Yuna]

1. Yeah, people who were good in melee are generally better in brawl, but when brawl first came out, we were all n00bs. It didn't matter if you were a pro in melee, you could still get beaten by a n00b.

In general, people who were good (as in really good) at Melee had a lot of skill carried over to Brawl. They just had to adapt (which took less than a day).

Those who weren't good or had never played a Smash game before were at an obvious disadvantage since they didn't know the basics of Smash.

Brawl is not Melee 2.0. But it's not Street Fighter IV either. In general, if you put someone good at Melee against someone bad at Melee, the one who was good was more likely to win.

This is because we had the basics of Smash down + we knew what "mindgames" were and we had the competitive fighting game mindset. Likewise, I don't play Melty Blood: Act Cadenza. Yet, if you put me up against people who have the game and play it a lot (even some on a competitive level), I still stand a chance.

Why? Because I've got a competitive fighting game mindset, know what "mindgames" are, know spacing, how to block Mid-High-Low, the difference between safe and unsfe, etc.

Statistically, yes, we, the ones who were good at Melee, won the most when we started playing Brawl (despite the fact that I had to switch mains).

2. The only reason why it may seem like the gap between pros and n00bs is smaller than it was in melee is because with the smashbros. dojo, online play, and smashboards and youtube becoming more and more popular, people are getting better in brawl faster than they did in melee.

This is this and that is that. If someone who was good at Melee does not invest the time to get good at Brawl, of course he'll be beaten by someone who does. It's simple logic.

But if you put someone who was good at Melee in front of a TV and someone who wasn't in front of the same TV and neither had ever played Brawl before, chances are, in the majority of cases, the "old pro" would beat the "old n00b".

Skill gap, schmill gap. The better player, the one with superior knowledge of the game and mindgames will almost always still win. You can fantasize about n00bs beating competitive gamers all day, that will not chance significantly just because the skill gap has been lessened. Yes, the lower tiers of competitive players might lose to the upper tiers of casual players or some high-ranked competitively player might screw up in one game and lose to someone he shouldn't lose to but it's not going to be an everyday occurence.

If someone has invested a lot of time into becoming good at Brawl, chances are, in 99% of the cases, he'll win against someone obviously worse of a player than him (unless he's fighting a reaaaally ****ty matchup).

Basically,the only n00bs who play brawl are the ones who want to be n00bs, and the ones who can't access the internet.

Or the ones who are scrubs. And that's the point. N00bs still exist at Brawl. If they're n00bs, they won't beat "pros".

Being a Melee Pro =/= Automatically being a Brawl Pro.
however
Melee Pro =/= Skill carries over into Brawl + competitive mindset

 

[drshorty]

Ok, I've got to point a few things out here and not to piss people off or anything like that, but when it comes down the point where you're practicing the technical aspects of a game, you're no longer good at actual intended gameplay as you are at manipulating it.

I remember going to one tourney(only one) for melee and everybody could wavedash, and L-cancel, and I hadn't read about them until a week before on this forum. However, even without practicing(didn't care to learn them with such little time) I managed to win against 3 people of the 5(with the delays I didn't have time to complete it, I would have gone further surely but I didn't expect a tourney to last over 6 hours--and I was by no means the best I'm not bragging here) but they all knew the tricks, and they were used to normal timing(going from lightning to normal isn't easy) I jumped and did a lot of aerial, I pulled tricks that would get you killed(one would think), but when it comes to straight up fighting, the mind tricks didn't work, the tech tricks didn't work. Simply put, if you're complaining it's too easy for somebody who doesn't know the tricks, then you're complaining about not knowing how to get over the fact you don't have that advantage. I think I did better than what I expected, because people haven't seen somebody who is good without those advantages, I just happened to be one person who knew my character well enough to handle those situations and get by without the tricks. Did I feel proud of that fact? Absolutely. I could not get the timing on a wavedash at all, I didn't ever l-cancel because it wasn't second nature to me, and I still held my own.

You're complaining because you can't manipulate the game the way you could Melee, and it's a new type of game that's too easy for n00bs to win. Absolutely not true. It's not too easy for n00bs, you just had pro tricks that made you pro. Once you lost those tricks, you're back to being a n00b. That's all you really have to complain about. You just haven't adjusted to all the aspects of Brawl that were taken out of Melee which gave you the advantage. I still don't have l-cancel down to second nature(although I doubt I'll enter another tourney or use it out of necessity ever) and I never cared to figure out wavedash, but if you're going to complain about Brawl because it's too easy for n00bs, decide to leave it, and come back to play people who have figured out the pro tricks, you'll probably still be complaining about how it's definitely too easy for n00bs because YOU find it harder to win. You might say there's nothing to it, nothing to practice, but there is. There's other ways of being good besides the ways of being good at Melee.

So, basically that's my rant against those "PRO" smash bros players who feel their deficiency is actually Brawl's deficiency. It may be different, you may not like how it's different, and you could say that any n00b can pick up Brawl and be good , but if you say that it limits how much better you can be than the next guy, remember you haven't taken the time to excel at the game as it was intended, technically most people never got good at Melee the way it was intended.. Even when I didn't know the little tricks with the engine in Melee, I still fared what I would consider pretty decent(not great) but for knowing I was disadvantaged and still doing OK I think is a testament to concept that there are really so many variances to how you can play that there shouldn't really be any complaints about how "easy" it is. In that regard it just makes it so much harder to stand out, but wouldn't that be something to be proud of if you stood out? I'd say yes, especially if you kick *** hands down all the time when it's designed to balance skill level.

I'm sure Melee players still kick *** at brawl mostly even with the differences, and I'm sure they wish there were more to it, but that in no way is an indication of deficiency with the game or its mechanics. In fact, I feel it's the opposite. Just my opinion, but with more restrictions on the gameplay, being good just means being good at playing, not at handling the controller better or knowing the tricks. And everybody complains it's slower, well, play lightning. I complained that Melee was slow when I did standard matches.

Here, I'll apologize, I'm sorry you got so good at Melee playing in a way that wasn't intended, because now that the developer rid of that issue, it's only natural you wouldn't like Brawl, or Melee even if it were remade without the quirks.

 

[Yuna]

Ok, I've got to point a few things out here and not to piss people off or anything like that, but when it comes down the point where you're practicing the technical aspects of a game, you're no longer good at actual intended gameplay as you are at manipulating it.

Not this **** again *facepalm* (no, really, I'm sick and tired of this).

I remember going to one tourney(only one) for melee and everybody could wavedash, and L-cancel, and I hadn't read about them until a week before on this forum. However, even without practicing(didn't care to learn them with such little time) I managed to win against 3 people of the 5(with the delays I didn't have time to complete it, I would have gone further surely but I didn't expect a tourney to last over 6 hours--and I was by no means the best I'm not bragging here) but they all knew the tricks, and they were used to normal timing(going from lightning to normal isn't easy) I jumped and did a lot of aerial, I pulled tricks that would get you killed(one would think), but when it comes to straight up fighting, the mind tricks didn't work, the tech tricks didn't work.

Simply practicing the technical aspects at the game won't make you good. You need mindgames, strategies and also experience in how the game works.

At any given moment, you need to know what will works best or at least just work at all. You need to know how to best recover, how to avoid edgeguarding, how to edgeguard, how to combo, DI-chase, tech-chase, bait, etc., etc., etc.

Most techniques in Melee allowed you to mindgame more. However, if you had no clue how to use the techs sufficiently, all you were doing would be spamming techs. Anyone who could out-smart you could still beat you senseless.

I'm not the most technical of Peaches. Heck, I miss L-canceling a lot. But I still win... a lot. Because of superior mindgames.

Simply put, if you're complaining it's too easy for somebody who doesn't know the tricks, then you're complaining about not knowing how to get over the fact you don't have that advantage. I think I did better than what I expected, because people haven't seen somebody who is good without those advantages, I just happened to be one person who knew my character well enough to handle those situations and get by without the tricks. Did I feel proud of that fact? Absolutely. I could not get the timing on a wavedash at all, I didn't ever l-cancel because it wasn't second nature to me, and I still held my own.

We're complaining about the lack of options. Melee had tons of options. Some were easy, others were hard. I could care less how hard it would be to do them in Brawl as long as they were there at all. Now, we're playing a watered down version of Melee. Less options overall.

We're sluggish, we have no way to make ourselves faster, we have very few options when approaching, comboing and "mindgaming". Hell, the game itself is programmed in such a way the optimal way of playing is to camp and wait for your opponent to screw up instead of trying to approach yourself! Shieldcamping is ridiculous because of the new powershield, shielddrop and almost no shieldstun, you can't combo people and a lot of moves are unsafe on connect because there's almost zero hitstun.

So even if you manage to hit your opponent, you won't be able to do much. Edgeguarding has been nerfed into infinity with the new floatiness, DI-abilities, airdodge and moves to cancel momentum and auto-sweetspot + boosted recoveries for pretty much all characters in the game + broken ones for the new ones.

You're complaining because you can't manipulate the game the way you could Melee, and it's a new type of game that's too easy for n00bs to win. Absolutely not true. It's not too easy for n00bs, you just had pro tricks that made you pro. Once you lost those tricks, you're back to being a n00b. That's all you really have to complain about. You just haven't adjusted to all the aspects of Brawl that were taken out of Melee which gave you the advantage. I still don't have l-cancel down to second nature(although I doubt I'll enter another tourney or use it out of necessity ever) and I never cared to figure out wavedash, but if you're going to complain about Brawl because it's too easy for n00bs, decide to leave it, and come back to play people who have figured out the pro tricks, you'll probably still be complaining about how it's definitely too easy for n00bs because YOU find it harder to win. You might say there's nothing to it, nothing to practice, but there is. There's other ways of being good besides the ways of being good at Melee.

Those are the stupid players who don't know what they're talking about. The game is bad because it's limited. Even at the highest level of play, there's very little we can do. It's no longer fun. You'll camp and outcamp or get outcamped.

There are no "pro-tricks" to be figured out. Sakurai deliberately "dumbed the game down". Save for glitches, we won't be finding many new "pro-tricks" in the future.

*Stuff*

Here, I'll apologize, I'm sorry you got so good at Melee playing in a way that wasn't intended, because now that the developer rid of that issue, it's only natural you wouldn't like Brawl, or Melee even if it were remade without the quirks.

What the developer intended has no bearing on what we do with the game. If we are to play Brawl the way Sakurai wants us to, we should have all items on, all stages on, etc. But we won't. Because from a competitive viewpoint, that would be stupid.

Tons of games are played in games the developer never intended for them to be played.

We're talking about competitive smash here, tournament smash. If you don't want to be a part of that scene, why are you whining about how we're shaping it? It won't affect you in any way.

 

[Empy]

Ok, I've got to point a few things out here and not to piss people off or anything like that, but when it comes down the point where you're practicing the technical aspects of a game, you're no longer good at actual intended gameplay as you are at manipulating it.

Any Melee pro will own any Brawl n00b at "intended gameplay".

I remember going to one tourney(only one) for melee and everybody could wavedash, and L-cancel, and I hadn't read about them until a week before on this forum. However, even without practicing(didn't care to learn them with such little time) I managed to win against 3 people of the 5(with the delays I didn't have time to complete it, I would have gone further surely but I didn't expect a tourney to last over 6 hours-.

Yeah I remember playing against Abraham Lincoln, he was great, he could glide in Melee and everything, I still 4-stocked him and you know Abry, he just gets pissed and stalls the entire 8 minutes, so I shot him.

 

[Paingel]

the logic is full of win, but why do u need to post flame bait, you know its just a matter of time before T3h 1337 Br4wL3r5 flame you for being a melee lover, the community would be better of without this post, since those who care concur, and noticed already, and those that don't are loud and whiny....

I beg to differ. I found the post to be insightful.

Thinking back, it actually was a lot of fun to practice "tech-skill" related moves over and over until I was able to "master" them. Gave me something to do in my spare time... Something that the game designers didn't really intentionally put in.

And now that I think about other games, I remember being enjoying the ability to come up with my own useful combos on the spot, and having to actually spend time training myself to perfect the timing of these combos. And they would require near-perfect timing, too.

But now Brawl is more heavy on the thinking-aspect and less heavy on what the OP called the physical-aspect. It's more like a turn-based game, such as chess.

 

[Yuna]

I beg to differ. I found the post to be insightful.

Thinking back, it actually was a lot of fun to practice "tech-skill" related moves over and over until I was able to "master" them. Gave me something to do in my spare time... Something that the game designers didn't really intentionally put in.

And now that I think about other games, I remember being enjoying the ability to come up with my own useful combos on the spot, and having to actually spend time training myself to perfect the timing of these combos. And they would require near-perfect timing, too.

But now Brawl is more heavy on the thinking-aspect and less heavy on what the OP called the physical-aspect. It's more like a turn-based game, such as chess.

Since when is getting frame-precise timing down not technical skill? The problem is that even with timing in Brawl, you won't be comboing people.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Since when is getting frame-precise timing down not technical skill? The problem is that even with timing in Brawl, you won't be comboing people.

So? Any frame advantage is a good thing. Combos are not the end-all be-all of fighting games; you have friends who are in other fighting game scenes, you should know this by now. Jesus dude, you're grasping for straws now; it's painful to watch. Methinks someone should follow their own signature advice.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Hitstun makes combos, not advanced techs. "Pros" from what I see have gotten over the lack of adv. techs for the lack of histun.

Would Melee be the same without adv. techs? It would be similar, but slower.
Would Melee be the same without the hitstun? No. Compleel different in a watered down, negative, non-competitive way.

Can we move on from the adv. tech argument now?

 

[Yuna]

So? Any frame advantage is a good thing.

What does this have to do with what I said? The problem with Brawl is that even perfectly timed strings of attacks aren't necessarily frame-advantages. Because of the lack of hitstun and shieldstun... even if you're only using your fastest and most lagless attacks (because you still suffer from shieldhitstun).

Combos are not the end-all be-all of fighting games; you have friends who are in other fighting game scenes, you should know this by now. Jesus dude, you're grasping for straws now; it's painful to watch. Methinks someone should follow their own signature advice.

Combos are quite important in a game that promotes camping and turtling. Smash lacks a High-Mid-Low-system. Because of this, you can only hope to either get a clean hit off or to shieldstab your opponent. In traditional fighting games, with a High-Mid-Low system, you can utilize different kinds of attacks and try to trick your opponent into blocking it wrong (by mixing it up). This way, you can chip away at their lifebar. But you can't do that in Brawl, not even on hit. You can't combo because of the new game mechanics and then you're back to trying to get an opening without a mixup system.

But it's pretty hard since you can't really shieldpressure anymore so it's not like it's easy to wear down peoples' shields. It takes time and effort to actually get a hit in. And even when you do, you can't combo them, especially not into a finisher (which is why people live 'til 200% and die from relatively weak attacks most of the time).

Heck, Smash doesn't even have an Oki-zeme system since on knockdown, you have tons of options to prevent shield-pressure and mixups (which do not exist... you only have "attacks" and "grabs&quot.

Because of this, combos are pretty important, especially combos into moves that hit you far (KO). But that's out of the question. So now we'll have to try to find openings by poking (because tons of stuff is unsafe now) again and again and then when we break through, do a 2-3-hit combo. And then rinse and repeat. And then once they've reached a certain damage, we start trying to nail them with KO moves, which for the most part are either slow or unsafe or both.

Meanwhile, camping is really effective as well. So here we have a game where camping and turtling are not only promoted and encouraged but among the best tactics in the game. Which makes it boring for many competitive gamers (ask anyone... would they play a game where turtling and camping were encouraged by the game engine itself and pretty hard to get around?).

 

[Jimbo_G]

Wow, DRSHORTY, you're my hero. That is EXACTLY what 's going through my head as well. In my opinion, it was the advanced Tech Skills that RUINED the game, straying it so far from its original design that it was no longer anything like it was intended to be. People got so obsessed with wave-dashing that I've seen some not even use running or rolling in the game anymore. It was almost pathetic how dependent they were on the exploits in the game. All those "advanced techs" and moves are not skill-based aspects of the game, they're GLITCHES. They're nothing but EXPLOITS of the game mechanics and physics, and I am SO GLAD that they were done away with in Brawl.

 

[arrowhead]

You still don't get it.

You can learn correct spacing and the ablility to adapt from any game and maybe even on your own without help from competitive player, and the lack of techs in brawl doesn't matter. Skill has no limits.

Lets say you put two smashers against each other, and they both have been playing brawl for 2 months. P1 knows about spacing, DIing, doing moves out your shield, and he or she knows a decent number of ATs for every character, while P2 has been living under a rock, and knows nothing about competitive play. Now, it may not look as cool as it would in melee, but the result would be the same.

P1 would wreck P2, and P2 had no chance of winning.

There's your skill difference, right there.

And I don't care if you dissagree, because you'd still be wrong.

this doesn't counter anything in my post. some of it doesn't even make sense

Wow, DRSHORTY, you're my hero. That is EXACTLY what 's going through my head as well. In my opinion, it was the advanced Tech Skills that RUINED the game, straying it so far from its original design that it was no longer anything like it was intended to be. People got so obsessed with wave-dashing that I've seen some not even use running or rolling in the game anymore. It was almost pathetic how dependent they were on the exploits in the game. All those "advanced techs" and moves are not skill-based aspects of the game, they're GLITCHES. They're nothing but EXPLOITS of the game mechanics and physics, and I am SO GLAD that they were done away with in Brawl.

because anything the developers didn't intend to put in a game can only make it worse . by the way, wavedashing isn't a glitch

 

[Jimbo_G]

because anything the developers didn't intend to put in a game can only make it worse . by the way, wavedashing isn't a glitch

Actually, wavedashing is a glitch. It's a break in the physics engine that allows the character to slide according to their friction rating without any lag or recovery, allowing them to perform attacks or maneuvers that would otherwise be impossible under normal circumstances. Just because the developers were aware of it during the development of the game does not mean they intended it to be used, and the fact that they eliminated it from Brawl shows that they acknowledged leaving it in the game as a bad decision.

And yes, usually any sort of glitch or exploit in a game that the developers did not intend to exist harms gameplay because it provides unfair advantages and/or loopholes to the normal rules and physics of the game, completely nullifying the original intent or gameplay of a game.

 

[arrowhead]

Actually, wavedashing is a glitch. It's a break in the physics engine that allows the character to slide according to their friction rating without any lag or recovery, allowing them to perform attacks or maneuvers that would otherwise be impossible under normal circumstances. Just because the developers were aware of it during the development of the game does not mean they intended it to be used, and the fact that they eliminated it from Brawl shows that they acknowledged leaving it in the game as a bad decision.

And yes, usually any sort of glitch or exploit in a game that the developers did not intend to exist harms gameplay because it provides unfair advantages and/or loopholes to the normal rules and physics of the game, completely nullifying the original intent or gameplay of a game.

wavedashing uses airdodging, an intended technique, to create momentum, an intended game mechanic. they also noticed it during development of the game and didn't want to take it out. where's the glitch part? by the way, there's 10 frames of lag.

"Just because the developers were aware of it during the development of the game does not mean they intended it to be used." this is just ridiculous. why would they keep something in a game if they didn't want it to be used?

the developers took out WD because they were set on taking the competitiveness away from the game. they thought it was a good advanced technique that deepened gameplay so they got rid of it. gunpowder was discovered by asians trying to create an immortality consumable. i guess our uses for it aren't good ideas because it's not how it was intended to be used, huh? go tell me that after you've had a nice meal

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Actually, wavedashing is a glitch. It's a break in the physics engine that allows the character to slide according to their friction rating without any lag or recovery, allowing them to perform attacks or maneuvers that would otherwise be impossible under normal circumstances. Just because the developers were aware of it during the development of the game does not mean they intended it to be used, and the fact that they eliminated it from Brawl shows that they acknowledged leaving it in the game as a bad decision.

And yes, usually any sort of glitch or exploit in a game that the developers did not intend to exist harms gameplay because it provides unfair advantages and/or loopholes to the normal rules and physics of the game, completely nullifying the original intent or gameplay of a game.

Um.

Yeah.

And you are a mind-reader? Hot daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. If so, I wanna pull a Venom on your *** and start feasting on your medulla oblongata. Srsly.

At any rate, it is impossible to determine whether such a statement is true or not. You can vociferously proclaim these things, but unless you are Sakurai or one of the many members of his development team then you don't know.

The fact of the matter is simple: They have an idea. They act upon said idea. They create a game based around said ideas. Then they release it. From there on, it is OUT OF THEIR HANDS. Sakurai, on the bloody Dojo, even said it himself: You can play Brawl any way you want to. The fact of the matter is, well, that's how ALL video games are meant to be played. There is no such thing as a "right" or a "wrong" way to play (unless the game forces you into linear paths at some point, which is unavoidable in some games). That much we do know and that much we act upon.

Say what you will about wavedashing or any of the other ATs in Melee, but consider this: They didn't make the game freeze, they do not create an insurmountable advantage because they can be easily learned, and they make things interesting. What's so wrong about that? **** talking like this could be inversed on items; I mean, God, since they spawn randomly and have the potential to do wiggy and wonky **** to the basic physics of the core engine, then I guess that makes them broken and thus invalid. Right?

No. Of course not. That would be utterly absurd and narrow-minded of me. I'm not telling you to play with ATs or condemning you for playing with items or anything; I'm just saying. In fact, I think that's what everybody else is trying to tell you. It's all part of the game engine (for Melee). The reason why we ban certain things when it comes to tourneys is because we competitive players have a different mindset from the conventional player; we want to set aside factors that are mitigating and unfair when money is on the line.

I could go on and reiterate just about every single argument on the board for ATs, but I think I'll just sit back and allow everybody else to go on.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Phauxe]

I've never understood why people are always so deep set against wavedashing, and the ATs in general when it comes to Melee. I watch almost any video on youtube of a Melee match, and I'll always see comments along the lines of "They're really good, but it's a shame that they have to do things like wavedash..." That's probably as polite as those people get about Wavedashing. I usually see much worse flames than that.

That being said, I don't think that the exclusion of ATs in Brawl was to make the game more or less competitive, nor was it to level out the playing field or do anything of that sort. I think Sakurai just wanted to make a game. When he had a concept for what Brawl would ultimately become, his vision didn't include wavedashing (especially because of the altered air dodge mechanic, which makes it impossible to include wavedashing again). I'm not going to sit here and try to point fingers at Sakurai, or the competitive community, because that does not get us anywhere with making Brawl tournament viable, or with reinstating Melee as the tournament staple.

There's a difference between discussion and flaming, and I'm seeing less and less of the former, and way too much of the latter. If you love Smash Bros. that much as a series, then please come together and try to discuss this civilly.

What does this entail? If you didn't play Melee competitively, please try to understand and respect the opinions of those who did play Melee competitively. They've played it harder and longer than you, and most likely know more about it than you do. Notice I didn't say you had to agree with their opinions? For those of us who did play Melee competitively, please try to understand that those who hadn't played Melee competitively aren't going to immediately get what you're saying. Watching high level play, and talking about high level play are entirely different from experiencing it firsthand and actually playing games at that level. They might not ever get what it was like, but we owe it to everybody here to be civil.

As for people who complain about the inclusions of ATs, please don't bring it into this thread. It's called "The Logic Behind 'Brawl is easier than Melee.'" Of course we're going to talk about ATs, they were used in tournament play in Melee. Regardless whether you think 'smashing buttons quickly' is a skill or not, you can't deny that if you have to consistently do more inputs to yield the same result in comparison to another game, that's obviously another factor in determining the difficulty of a game.

That's the wonderful thing about all 3 installments of this game. There was never a set way to play if you were playing for fun. The variety of items, stages, characters, and with Brawl having the stage creator allows you to do whatever the **** you want to do with this game. If you're not planning on playing competitively, why bother getting into a discussion about this? Why bother flaming about the ATs in Melee. We're trying to have a discussion here, and trolls don't belong in discussions.

 

[Jimbo_G]

wavedashing uses airdodging, an intended technique, to create momentum, an intended game mechanic. they also noticed it during development of the game and didn't want to take it out. where's the glitch part? by the way, there's 10 frames of lag.

"Just because the developers were aware of it during the development of the game does not mean they intended it to be used." this is just ridiculous. why would they keep something in a game if they didn't want it to be used?

the developers took out WD because they were set on taking the competitiveness away from the game. they thought it was a good advanced technique that deepened gameplay so they got rid of it. gunpowder was discovered by asians trying to create an immortality consumable. i guess our uses for it aren't good ideas because it's not how it was intended to be used, huh? go tell me that after you've had a nice meal

Sakurai himself stated in his interview that wavedashing was unintentional; "we noticed that you could do that during the development period." He left it in the game due to time constraints and the thought that it would not come back around to alter the way the game was played in such a drastic way. It is a GLITCH, causing a break in the physics that gives an unfair, unintended advantage to the user, allowing him to use moves or combos in such a way that would otherwise be impossible. Stating that airdodging and momentum are intended aspects of the game doesn't have anything to do with wavedashing. It's the USE of those two aspects in an unusual way that causes the wavedash, which is the BREAK (A.K.A. glitch) in the physics that gives you the UNINTENDED ADVANTAGE, and thus, an EXPLOIT in the game.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...EXPLOIT in the game.

See the underlined text.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Lookee here, chillun! The crux of the argument.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TiersAreReal]

Sakurai is basically subscribing to the Nintendo philosophy of everybody wins and there are no losers. I look at Melee and see an incredibly deep game. I look at Brawl and see Mario Kart Wii, a game that nerfed MK:DS's snaking to the point where it's nearly useless and not as good as wheelies on bikes. Snaking allowed the better player to win through advanced techniques and skill, while matches in which no one snakes are highly dependent upon items, luck, and a rubberband AI that speeds up characters that are losing. Sound familiar? It's what happened to wavedashing. I'm not saying we need ATs to have a deep, competitive game, but Nintendo's (and Sakurai's) mindset does not have us or deep gameplay in mind at all. I only see this getting worse in the future.

Brawl has mindgames, but they're a different sort than what Melee had. I'm not going to call them more deep (I don't think they are), but at the moment they appear to be more shallow. The game is overly defensive, so it hinges more on approaching at a disadvantage or camping. Neither are really favorable or conducive to a fun competitive scene. You might have to think more (but that is certainly arguable) about approaches, but your options being so limited reduces mindgames in a sense.

Melee reminds me of one of those old kung fu films where two fighters are furiously exchanging and blocking attacks for a period of time. Brawl is like an old samurai film in which two swordsmen clash swords, back off, clash again, back off, and over and over again. Melee is about localized conflict and Brawl is about individual clashes over and over. I much prefer the former to the latter, but Brawl tends to be "easier" to a degree due to the fact that you're less likely to be punished as severely for an action or mistake than in Melee.

 

[arrowhead]

Sakurai himself stated in his interview that wavedashing was unintentional; "we noticed that you could do that during the development period." He left it in the game due to time constraints and the thought that it would not come back around to alter the way the game was played in such a drastic way. It is a GLITCH, causing a break in the physics that gives an unfair, unintended advantage to the user, allowing him to use moves or combos in such a way that would otherwise be impossible. Stating that airdodging and momentum are intended aspects of the game doesn't have anything to do with wavedashing. It's the USE of those two aspects in an unusual way that causes the wavedash, which is the BREAK (A.K.A. glitch) in the physics that gives you the UNINTENDED ADVANTAGE, and thus, an EXPLOIT in the game.

you didn't even read my post, did you? there was no break in physics and you just made it up when you said there wasn't enough time to take out wavedashing. not the way to debate

and it should be obvious why the intended way to do something isn't always the best way

 

[RomeDogg]

I only skimmed through but anyway even without learning Advanced Techs in Melee it was still a harder game than Brawl. You had to work harder to get any and all move timing down really well. In Brawl it seems after 30 seconds with any character you have a feel for their move timing completely. Spikes seem simple as helll to land in brawl because of the new physics and slow pace. Plus even without advanced techs in Melee multiple hit combos were still very possible you just had to learn to connect moves together depending on the stun time. In Melee tether recoveries had to be timed to hit the closest ledge. In brawl you just hit one simple button close enough to the ledge. In brawl you can grab the edge from a mile away and in Melee you had to be right on top of the edge. Also it is harder to break out of combos in melee than in brawl, because combos and stun time dont really exist in brawl and because DI is alot easier. Also in brawl you can attack or jump out of an air-dodge, allowing ppl to do it excessively instead of using it wisely like in melee because in melee you only have one per airtime and you cant waste it because you could get punished for that. In melee you had to sweet-spot your up-b so you wouldnt get punished, now in brawl you dont have to time it at all cause there is that auto ledge grab bullshiit. In Melee if you did your up-b in the wrong direction you died, but in brawl your character will actually turn around and grab the edge anyway.


I think i gave enough points but I rambled alot.........BRAWL CAN SUCK MY SCROTUM.....

 

[Killress]

I agree. I kinda miss tech skill though Oh well. I have a feeling in a few years, tech skill will be more importaint, as more techniques are invented.

 

[Mario77]

There is combo potential in this game, it just has to be done in extremely rapid succession using a lot of c-stick tricks and stuff. There's an inescapable combo with Ganondorf I've seen Boss do that does around 80% damage. Any Lucario, Metaknight, and R.O.B. player will tell you that they can combo like a beast once there is an opening.

So yeah, combos exist, they're just much, much, much more difficult and situational.



Actually, combos MUST be improvised for there be effective comboing. In Melee, there were a few things you can do that were pretty much guaranteed, none of that exists in Brawl.

VID OF GANONDORF COMBO PLEASE.