The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Warlock*G]

I'm willing to bet that most people saying they're "fine" with Ganondorf's present moveset would jump for joy if a sword-using Ganondorf was officially announced.

 

[Folt]

Ganondorf is already using his sword.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganondorf is already using his sword.

Can't use it in a neutral setting however. Subverted.

 

[DMTroop]

Why do people act like you can't keep both?

If you replaced Falcondorf with Deathborn from F-Zero then Deathborn would already fit in and be in canonical point of reference.

Or Black Shadow, as both of them make more sense to have that moveset (bonus points for giving F-Zero some much needed representation) and give ol' Ganon a moveset that's actually faithful from the games he is from. This way those who like Falcondorf aren't alienated while those who want a new moveset get what they've been asking for since like melee.

 

[Folt]

I don't want to play as Black Shadow in Smash. Or Deathborn for that matter.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't want to play as Black Shadow in Smash. Or Deathborn for that matter.

Yeah well I want to play as Ganondorf but oh well. What you see is what you get.

 

[Folt]

And we got our wish. We get to play as Ganondorf, and he's been on the roster for 4 games now. And he has some of the most satisfying moves to land in the game, which is even better.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And we got our wish. We get to play as Ganondorf, and he's been on the roster for 4 games now. And he has some of the most satisfying moves to land in the game, which is even better.

3 games kiddo. Smash 4 may be spread across 2 platforms but in my eyes they are the same game. And all of em as Falcondorf so technically no games. The only Dorf qualities is damage, appearance, and vague references to his OoT and TP one off actions in a few cutscenes and in boss fights. Until I see a hovering Dorf throwing balls of magic at fools and with a decent I'm not old catching my breath run animation he will be Ganondorf in name and appearance only.

If Bowser can get props so can Ganon. Grumpity grump grump.

 

[DMTroop]

I don't want to play as Black Shadow in Smash. Or Deathborn for that matter.

But you essentially do play as that character when playing as the current Gannondorf... The current Ganon has nothing to do with the Zelda character of the same name other than appearance, he currently plays like what Deathborn or Black Shadow would play like. Why are you so opposed to others getting what they want w/out losing anything? Giving his current moveset to an F-Zero villian while giving Ganon his own moveset that actually represents what he does would literally affect nothing about how you play currently.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Folt probably feels that Falcondorf is what is and what always shall be and that those who don't agree with it should move on and give up on hoping Ganondorf will change the next go around. Which is pretty lame honestly.

 

[DMTroop]

Folt probably feels that Falcondorf is what is and what always shall be and that those who don't agree with it should move on and give up on hoping Ganondorf will change the next go around. Which is pretty lame honestly.

That's a pretty myopic view (referring to Folt). I can completely understand losing a unique moveset, but that's not what's being suggested. I don't think its fair to actual Zelda fans that the current Ganon has zero connection to the game he's from. Deathborn and Black Shadow are relatively similar to Ganon anyways, so its not like his moveset wouldn't be given to a fitting character. Would someone explain how this wouldn't be fair?

 

[MagiusNecros]

That's a pretty myopic view (referring to Folt). I can completely understand losing a unique moveset, but that's not what's being suggested. I don't think its fair to actual Zelda fans that the current Ganon has zero connection to the game he's from. Deathborn and Black Shadow are relatively similar to Ganon anyways, so its not like his moveset wouldn't be given to a fitting character. Would someone explain how this wouldn't be fair?

People will always argue Ganondorf's current moveset has vague connections to one off actions he does in basically 2 Zelda games. So basically he has 3% representation. As for unfairness I think it's completely fair to give Ganon's current set to a F-Zero character because as I stated other then powerful single hit attacks(which is really the only thing going for Ganondorf) there is little reason to play as him other then that aesthetic appearance. I do main Ganon and love using him on the notion that this is the Ganondorf of this game but that doesn't mean I don't want him to change.

 

[Folt]

I've never seen any of the characters in the Smash games as being the characters from the games in their franchise. They take the traits and abilities they need from the original games, and the rest are altered: sometimes very little and sometimes a lot, but always in a manner that makes the character fit in. If I'm playing as Mario in Smash, I'm playing as Mario in Smash and not Mario as he is in his home series. Ganondorf being made a Cpt. Falcon clone in Melee surprised me, but it allowed me to play as someone I like using a variation that I really like, and over time I've grown to pretty much see this as how Ganondorf plays as in Smash. As I got older, I also began to understand why he was a clone in Melee and why he was evolved along that path in the subsequent Smash games, and these evolutions also made him closer to Ganondorf of the games too.

He also fills a niché of being a slow, strong brawler with attacks that are hard but very satisfying to land. King Dedede and Ike are weapon users, Robin kinda fits but is a projectile user with a satisfying projectile move to land instead, and Bowser doesn't quite have the power that Ganondorf has, which is part of what makes them so satisfying to land, but has become faster in subsequent games in comparison. While it may sound like I don't want Ganondorf to change, I do... but in a way that lets him keep that niché.

Also, F-Zero is adequately represented as-is, and I speak as a moderate fan of the series.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I would just like Ganondorf to have a high place in the roster but unfortunately 4/5 of the roster will always have an advantage over him. Like Bowser, Ganondorf will have to constantly fight 2 battles at the same time. Get to thing and hitting the thing. Which is a sad thing for me because the only characters I really enjoy to play as are Ganondorf, Dedede, Bowser. Dedede at least has the Gordo in some situations which in turn can become it's own Deadman's Volley Ganon fans have been asking for, for many years. And Dedede is the one who ends up getting it.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I would just like Ganondorf to have a high place in the roster but unfortunately 4/5 of the roster will always have an advantage over him. Like Bowser, Ganondorf will have to constantly fight 2 battles at the same time. Get to thing and hitting the thing. Which is a sad thing for me because the only characters I really enjoy to play as are Ganondorf, Dedede, Bowser. Dedede at least has the Gordo in some situations which in turn can become it's own Deadman's Volley Ganon fans have been asking for, for many years. And Dedede is the one who ends up getting it.

Ganon didnt get anything new in smash 4, very lazy port from Brawl. All we got is a custom move with a sword disguised as a weaker but longer Warlock Punch... There is really NO excuse why so many characters (new and old) get new and beneficial changes while Ganon gets none!

~Ganon with Sword + magic (some Hand to hand) (focus on just the single sword) -

The play style he has through out all the smash games is still here just with more magic and a sword, anyone that likes how Ganon plays now will not feel like they "lost" it as the punish game is still present and you still have to approach but you got more range to work with.

~Ganon with magic + fists -

With this he plays virtually the same just with more unique animation a new neutral B (PM gave him) and new smashes and uptilt, at the very least this should be done to Ganon in the main series since these changes a lot but yet keeps it very familiar. (small idea: since brawl modding is limited and projectiles can not be given to characters with no projectile articles in their file. Ganon can have a similar N-B as PM but the difference would be the he can only use his cape if projectiles are in range and when there is no projectiles in range he charges/shoots the DMV).

 

[Folt]

The Project M sword moveset makes Ganondorf a bit too similiar to Ike (and just looks clunky in general). The Neutral B and U-Tilt are the moves Ganondorf possess that are the most satisfying to land as well, the former being such a radically changed version that it's a completely different move altogether, and the customs he got for the latter in the 3DS and Wii U games are all pretty coolio as well. Good on the PM team for keeping the stomp though.

 

[Kenith]

I think what would be the best solution now is if they gave Ganondorf (as well as other characters) multiple movesets.
One of them is the default, the other is like the movesets shown above.

Similarly they could give Mario an entirely FLUDD based moveset, Lucina a rushdown moveset, Rosalina with no Luma, etc.

 

[Folt]

I don't think that will happen. Ever.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not as long as Sakurai spearheads Smash development no.

 

[Kenith]

I don't think that will happen. Ever.

Not with that attitude.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

The Project M sword moveset makes Ganondorf a bit too similiar to Ike (and just looks clunky in general). The Neutral B and U-Tilt are the moves Ganondorf possess that are the most satisfying to land as well, the former being such a radically changed version that it's a completely different move altogether, and the customs he got for the latter in the 3DS and Wii U games are all pretty coolio as well. Good on the PM team for keeping the stomp though.

He plays completly different than Ike with the sword move set. The only thing similar is that they both have a sword... On the sword moveset he also has magic and his up B is a teleport. And clunky? Really? It plays very smoothly but it's still a mod it wasn't worked in till perfection especially since it's constantly updated.

On the magic+fist moveset he plays virtually the same. The stomp is on down smash and it works 10X better than the smash 4 stomp. And WP is garbage the float/reflect (with DMV projectile in actual game) would be sooooooo much better.

But seriously, he plays nothing like Ike. It's the same Ganon were all used to just with some sword and or magic moves. The defensive playstyle is still intact with slow but powerful punishes. And just because there are other sword characters doesn't mean Ganon shouldnt have his and stay a clone forever. I think it's hilarious that the first place we can actually play as Ganondorf in smash (and not Falcondorf) is in a modded moveset for a mod of Brawl.

 

[Folt]

He plays completly different than Ike with the sword move set. The only thing similar is that they both have a sword... On the sword moveset he also has magic and his up B is a teleport. And clunky? Really? It plays very smoothly but it's still a mod it wasn't worked in till perfection especially since it's constantly updated.

On the magic+fist moveset he plays virtually the same. The stomp is on down smash and it works 10X better than the smash 4 stomp. And WP is garbage the float/reflect (with DMV projectile in actual game) would be sooooooo much better.

But seriously, he plays nothing like Ike. It's the same Ganon were all used to just with some sword and or magic moves. The defensive playstyle is still intact with slow but powerful punishes. And just because there are other sword characters doesn't mean Ganon shouldnt have his and stay a clone forever. I think it's hilarious that the first place we can actually play as Ganondorf in smash (and not Falcondorf) is in a modded moveset for a mod of Brawl.

I'm looking and I am not seeing anything that backs your claim that he's playing differently from Ike. And yes, I said and meant clunky, but I know this is a work-in-progress so I'm willing to wait until you're completely done with it before properly judging it.

Regarding your second paragraph, I'm talking about the dair stomp AKA the spike stomp. Not the Volcano Kick (aka the U-Tilt).

Also, the bolded line is why I see Ike in your modded Ganondorf: The playstyle of the two, being slow but powerful punishers, overlap with each other, and animation-wise they also favor being powerful and brutal over grace and finesse (which contrasts Marth and Zelda respectively), but Ike gets disjointed hitboxes and reach through having a sword while not being anywhere close to the sheer power that Ganondorf has.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I'm looking and I am not seeing anything that backs your claim that he's playing differently from Ike. And yes, I said and meant clunky, but I know this is a work-in-progress so I'm willing to wait until you're completely done with it before properly judging it.

Regarding your second paragraph, I'm talking about the dair stomp AKA the spike stomp. Not the Volcano Kick (aka the U-Tilt).

Also, the bolded line is why I see Ike in your modded Ganondorf: The playstyle of the two, being slow but powerful punishers, overlap with each other, and animation-wise they also favor being powerful and brutal over grace and finesse (which contrasts Marth and Zelda respectively), but Ike gets disjointed hitboxes and reach through having a sword while not being anywhere close to the sheer power that Ganondorf has.

I understand what you are saying but they do play differently. Also this isn't my mod I just play test it.

And also just because Ike has disjoint doesn't mean Ganon shouldn't. Be it magic or sword.
And animation wise, the side smas looks more like Toon Link's (PM) and Upsmash looks more like D3's.
Fair is like the fist one just with more range in front while less over head. And it's weaker.
Up air works similarly to Zelda's.
B is wholly unique with super armor and a charge while running to make the attack stronger the more distance you travel.
Really use the mod, you'll see how much different Ike and Sword Ganon are.

 

[Folt]

I understand what you are saying but they do play differently. Also this isn't my mod I just play test it.

And also just because Ike has disjoint doesn't mean Ganon shouldn't. Be it magic or sword.
And animation wise, the side smas looks more like Toon Link's (PM) and Upsmash looks more like D3's.
Fair is like the fist one just with more range in front while less over head. And it's weaker.
Up air works similarly to Zelda's.
B is wholly unique with super armor and a charge while running to make the attack stronger the more distance you travel.
Really use the mod, you'll see how much different Ike and Sword Ganon are.

It's also easy to see how different Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are by just playing them for a while, but eh, whatever.

To put it bluntly: I understand and get where you're coming from, but I can't agree to make drastical changes to his current moveset as-is. I'd rather see Ganondorf evolve on what he currently has instead of just throwing all that work away.

When Bowser was given an overhaul in Smash 4, he and his moveset was mostly changed animation-wise, with dash attack, forward smash, nair and bair, b-throw and ledge attack being new moves, and the rest of the moves are essentially the same but reworked to be faster and improved overall. His old animations and moves also still exist in the form of his Final Smash. If Ganondorf was given the same overhaul, he'd most likely still punch and kick because that's his schtick in Smash now.

To put it bluntly, I could see Ganondorf get an overhaul in the same vein as Bowser, or even Luigi: changing some animations and functions, but keeping the connection to his old moveset (and like how Luigi keeps some ties to Mario's moveset, Ganondorf would still keep ties to Captain Falcon's moveset, he'd just become less of a semi-clone). I doubt they'd change his u-tilt or Warlock Punch because of that because those have a connection to Captain Falcon, yet is so iconic of the Ganondorf in Smash simply because they're different in function (u-tilt) or animation (Warlock Punch, while having similiar functions to Falcon Punch, is distinctly Ganondorf animation-wise, having him brutally scream and backhand the opponent in contrast to Captain Falcon's flashier, more superhero-style way of doing it). In addition, the custom specials of the two in Smash 4 are pretty different from each other.

 

[Brango]

What about in the next smash, Ganon will obviously have a new costume from the most recent zelda game at that time. And that will be his default costume like Wario's default is his Wario Ware costume. In his default, he will have the new moveset. But his secondary costumes (Ocarina/Twilight), he will have his original moveset. I feel like he might be but as separate character slots but to save slots, they can have that each costume can have a different moveset. Or just switch moveset before you select your character. Only works for certain characters who has been clones and need a new moveset. Gives the community an option to stick to the old or adapt to the new.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Because that happened for Link and Zelda right whose recent game being Skyward Sword obviously factored their new designs in.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Honestly, after playing Ganondorf for a while, the way they did his character is really, really odd. They actually did try to make him more like he is in Zelda from Smash 4 and Brawl while still making him a physical fighter, which is honestly kinda weird. He's got the downward punch from OOT, he's got the Sparta kick, and he's kinda the windwaker ***** slap as a ledge move, and he flamed choked in twilight princess. So they did try and make him more like Ganon, but it's still so ****ing weird that they did this. It's still stupid because a character shouldn't be represented in a fighting game by isolated instances in cutscenes where he uses a physical move.

So, yeah, they were meticulous in making sure Ganondorf was the most fitting physical fighter he could be, but that doesn't justify making a physical fighter. Why didn't that just add some extra Magic/Sword moves instead of digging through Zelda games searching for miniscule instances where Ganondorf uses a physical move.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

The Project M sword moveset makes Ganondorf a bit too similiar to Ike (and just looks clunky in general). The Neutral B and U-Tilt are the moves Ganondorf possess that are the most satisfying to land as well, the former being such a radically changed version that it's a completely different move altogether, and the customs he got for the latter in the 3DS and Wii U games are all pretty coolio as well. Good on the PM team for keeping the stomp though.

Lol, he's top similar to Ike? Well, if you hadn't noticed, he's a ****ing clone of Captain Falcon. I think think similarity too other characters shouldn't really be a problem when you want a character to remain a clone.

 

[Folt]

Lol, he's top similar to Ike? Well, if you hadn't noticed, he's a ****ing clone of Captain Falcon. I think think similarity too other characters shouldn't really be a problem when you want a character to remain a clone.

Semi-clone since Brawl, actually. Also, as of Melee he's our only choice for a slow heavyweight brawler who isn't an animal or a monster.

Also, by now, there's lots of playable characters in Smash who covers the kind of nichés that Ganondorf would have had if he got a sword and/or his magic.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Semi-clone since Brawl, actually. Also, as of Melee he's our only choice for a slow heavyweight brawler who isn't an animal or a monster.

Also, by now, there's lots of playable characters in Smash who covers the kind of nichés that Ganondorf would have had if he got a sword and/or his magic.

You are missing the point man...

It's not because of a "niche" or even a certain play style, its about being able to play as actual/cannon Ganondorf in smash. Not the butchered "clone/semi-clone" we have right now.

Also you must remember;
Ganondorf would NOT be a "only sword fighter" like the FE characters. He would be more like a cross between Link and Zelda. Some Sword moves, some Magic, a projectile (or 2), some physical attacks (Sparta kick, flame choke, down tilt etc.). His move set would be quite unique and varied. The play style he currently has with the "punish/react game" can stay intact (just look at the mod I posted in this thread to witness that).

Also him being the only humanoid heavy weight brawler isn't not a good reason for him being a clone, that role can be given to a character that is 'actually' a heavy brawler in his game (or to Black Shadow, Death Born etc. who would fit for that role as the heavy C. Falcon).

 

[Folt]

You are missing the point man...

It's not because of a "niche" or even a certain play style, its about being able to play as actual/cannon Ganondorf in smash. Not the butchered "clone/semi-clone" we have right now.

Also you must remember;
Ganondorf would NOT be a "only sword fighter" like the FE characters. He would be more like a cross between Link and Zelda. Some Sword moves, some Magic, a projectile (or 2), some physical attacks (Sparta kick, flame choke, down tilt etc.). His move set would be quite unique and varied. The play style he currently has with the "punish/react game" can stay intact (just look at the mod I posted in this thread to witness that).

Also him being the only humanoid heavy weight brawler isn't not a good reason for him being a clone, that role can be given to a character that is 'actually' a heavy brawler in his game (or to Black Shadow, Death Born etc. who would fit for that role as the heavy C. Falcon).

F-Zero already has enough playable characters. Black Shadow and Deathborn also shouldn't get in as playable over F-Zero characters like Samurai Goroh either. (And the only reason I've seen people mention wanting them in at all is because they believe it frees up Ganondorf for a new moveset.)

Also, we have fighters like that that aren't "only" swordmen (or "only" weapon users in general). Link already has some moves where he doesn't use his sword, as do Ike and Shulk. Pit (and Dark Pit by extension) are in the same boat as Link, and then we have Robin who basically is a cross between Link and Zelda, getting some sword moves, some magic moves, and even 3 projectiles.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

F-Zero already has enough playable characters. Black Shadow and Deathborn also shouldn't get in as playable over F-Zero characters like Samurai Goroh either. (And the only reason I've seen people mention wanting them in at all is because they believe it frees up Ganondorf for a new moveset.)

Also, we have fighters like that that aren't "only" swordmen (or "only" weapon users in general). Link already has some moves where he doesn't use his sword, as do Ike and Shulk. Pit (and Dark Pit by extension) are in the same boat as Link, and then we have Robin who basically is a cross between Link and Zelda, getting some sword moves, some magic moves, and even 3 projectiles.

Ok, first enough F-Zero characters according to who?... Also there is only 1 I think it deserves another. Also Ike and other FE characters have 1 -3 body/hand to hand moves at most.

Also it still doesn't matter. Ganondorf should have always been unique and had his own move set. It should never matter if his play style be similar to another character. Cause right now it still similar and has almost identical moves on top of that!

Also play/watch the mod I posted. he plays nothing like Ike or anyone in Smash 4 what so ever. His punish/react play style is completely intact in the modded moveset. And I'm sure if he/they (Sakurai/Dev team) they can make Ganondorf with a cannon move set be the the most unique player on the roster. Open you mind a bit brother... don't limit you imagination of what a character can or cant be by what the current roster shows you. There is always room for more uniqueness and Ganondorf is (and has been for a long time) a prime candidate for it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Until I see Ganon hover, Reflect Jab, Energy balls, and Puppet Ganon hand slaps I won't be satisfied with Dorf.

And Falcon isn't even really based on Falcon. Same goes for his personality. In Smash he's a showoff but in the games he is always no nonsense serious.

 

[Folt]

Ok, first enough F-Zero characters according to who?... Also there is only 1 I think it deserves another. Also Ike and other FE characters have 1 -3 body/hand to hand moves at most.

Also it still doesn't matter. Ganondorf should have always been unique and had his own move set. It should never matter if his play style be similar to another character. Cause right now it still similar and has almost identical moves on top of that!

Also play/watch the mod I posted. he plays nothing like Ike or anyone in Smash 4 what so ever. His punish/react play style is completely intact in the modded moveset. And I'm sure if he/they (Sakurai/Dev team) they can make Ganondorf with a cannon move set be the the most unique player on the roster. Open you mind a bit brother... don't limit you imagination of what a character can or cant be by what the current roster shows you. There is always room for more uniqueness and Ganondorf is (and has been for a long time) a prime candidate for it.

F-Zero as a series is rather unimportant on the whole to really have more characters other than Captain Falcon rep it (and I've already said that I think Samurai Goroh is a better choice over Black Shadow and Deathborn if we do end up getting a second F-Zero character), especially a there hasn't been a new F-Zero game in a while. Also, that's still body/hand-to-hand moves on a sword character, and you haven't really addressed Robin.

Also, it doesn't matter if Ganondorf has a moveset that semi-clones Captain Falcon. He's still doing his own thing with it, and that makes him plenty unique already. Ganondorf as he currently is is Ganondorf as he is in Smash. That's how he was adapted since his appearance as a clone and that's all there is to it.

And I've watched your mod. I don't mind you doing it or having it brought into existence, but as I see it, the way Ganondorf swings the sword(s) is clunky and weird, especially if you're dual-wielding. (Though as you've made it quite clear that you're still working on it, I am willing to wait and see how it ultimately turns out. There's no point in me giving a final judgement if what you have isn't even the final product.)

That said, I think my final words will be that your mod, while rather good (or maybe not; we'll see), is ultimately more for the people who care about it rather than something that needs to be done for future Smash games.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The way Ganondorf uses the Sage Sword in Smash 4 is clunky and weird honestly. Regardless if I think it's great they gave Ganondorf Marth's Shieldbreaker as an attack.

Still outside of Flame Choke I tend to use Ganondorf's standard attacks more then any of his specials for attacking purposes. A Wizkick is rarely integrated and Dark Dive only used for recovery and the occasional stage bounce. If they made Dark Fists the new standard Up special I would be loving every moment of it. But it isn't sadly. And Dark Dive as an attack option is just terrible if you land a lucky hit.

Flame Choke is really the best addition on this iteration of Dorf since SSBB. It's just that good when you implement it.

 

[e105beta]

I find it funny that the current moveset is "perfect" for some when ExDeath's moveset from FF:Dissidia almost fits Canondorf better:

Sure, it ain't perfect, but it's pretty darn good considering the moveset was not designed with Ganondorf in mind at all.

 

[Banette]

I think I have by now come to terms with Ganondorf's future as a primarily physical fighter in Super Smash Bros; still I'm hoping for at least some alterations to his moveset to at least make Ganondorf more... consistent? What I mean is that as of now we see an old man in heavy armor that is clearly exhausted after running the shortest of distances, making backflips in the air as if it's nothing!

I get that Ganondorf could not keep doing his intimidating run animation from Melee now that he needs to watch his blood pressure, but then shouldn't doing mid-air back flips and raising your foot over your head turn out to be minor issues as well?

 

[the king of murder]

Your discussions remind me of that video in youtube.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Eh. I like HW Fabudorf too much.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Your discussions remind me of that video in youtube.

This is exactly what I was afraid of when I saw this video. These are incredibly weak arguments, but people accept them as definitive proof that Ganondorf has a good moveset simply because it comes from a good youtuber.