Katy Parry
The Only Zelda in Indiana
Agreed. Being able cancel dash into anything kind of makes wavedashing obsolete when u think about it.
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Pre-Release The future of wave dashing/wave landing.
- Thread starter Atem
- Start date
Agreed. Being able cancel dash into anything kind of makes wavedashing obsolete when u think about it.
DakotaBonez
The Depraved Optimist
The only other use for wavedashing (in my opinion) was quick ledge-grabs, but ledge-trumping discourages the edge-guarding playstyle.
If you want to do a quick ledge grab, you can just run off the stage and air-dodge into the ledge.
This works because characters can grab the ledge from behind now.
I only ever used wavelanding to quickly land on platforms, but I've seen a lot of players that are upset that you can't slide off platforms with wavelanding anymore. I still think there might be a sweetspot on the platforms but we'll have to wait and see more footage, and let more players get there hands on the game.
I wish Smash4 had more time to develop it's meta before Ultimate came out, who knows what mysteries still hide in that game? So many discoveries that really upped the games intensity; Perfect Pivot tilt attacks, Footstools canceling into specials, Jab locks, the insane Bayonetta and Cloud setups.
We barely scraped the surface.
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Quillion
Smash Hero
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- Sep 17, 2014
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- 5,937
IMO, I think they're going to tone down the "anything out of dash" thing and reduce it to just Smashes out of dash. At least, it feels like only doing Smashes out of dash is what was actually intended in the E3 trailer.
iankobe
Smash Lord
Do we have any footage of actual Wavedashing in Smash U??
SmashBro99
Smash Champion
People still think it isn't a glitch? Yikes
It'd be cool to see some advanced techs that are intentional, but Sakurai wants it to be easily accessible to everyone so, cross your fingers on them making a beautiful mistake again...but that'll get patched
ferioku
Smash Ace
Sigh, i'm guessing you believe L-cancelling and Dash dancing is also a glitch?People still think it isn't a glitch? Yikes
It'd be cool to see some advanced techs that are intentional, but Sakurai wants it to be easily accessible to everyone so, cross your fingers on them making a beautiful mistake again...but that'll get patched
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
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Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Wave landing definitely exist, and should be improved upon in my opinion.
I’m not really that keen on wavedashing, however.
This game will be perfectly fine without wavedashing. Adding wavedashing would absolutely hinder the growth of the competitive scene and it isn't what Sakurai wants. If Sakurai truly wanted wavedashing, we would have it. There are several reasons now that we don't have/shouldn't have wavedashing at all.
And the biggest two points:
We already have a better and simpler wavedash. We can do anything out of dash. Why waste time arguing about this when a better solution in every way possible is right there? I don't know how anyone advocating for wavedashing got news of it DAD returning because they mustn't have watched the Direct. What Sakurai and team has done is simplify previous techs, we can short hop much easier now. It would go against the game's design to add wavedashing back. Why would Smash 4 players run the risk of getting stomped by an exploit that was only in one game? It'd be more divisive than it is unifying. Sakurai and team has not and should not add wavedashing.
- It's only been on Melee. While the same could be said for DAD, wavedashing wasn't intended at all for it. Only competitive Melee players will have this tech down.
- Everyone who hasn't played Melee competitively could already be at a severe disadvantage. New players and Smash 4 players don't have the time and adaptation for a new tech. Sakurai and Nintendo are clearly trying to get everyone in one game. Smash 4 players and especially new players might be turned off by having to learn it.
And the biggest two points:
We already have a better and simpler wavedash. We can do anything out of dash. Why waste time arguing about this when a better solution in every way possible is right there? I don't know how anyone advocating for wavedashing got news of it DAD returning because they mustn't have watched the Direct. What Sakurai and team has done is simplify previous techs, we can short hop much easier now. It would go against the game's design to add wavedashing back. Why would Smash 4 players run the risk of getting stomped by an exploit that was only in one game? It'd be more divisive than it is unifying. Sakurai and team has not and should not add wavedashing.
LilTurel
Smash Cadet
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- Jun 15, 2018
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- 26
I agree 100% tbh I think this whole we want wave dashing is a melee bias
Now don't take this the wrong way there is nothing wrong with being excited about a game but I can see why dahuter isn't happy.
If enough people don't see anything wrong with the game or don't think it's lacking in any way Nintendo will not think anything is wrong with the game. There are a lot more people that are willing to accept anything for a new Smash Brothers. And as long as that's the case Nintendo is not going to see a problem. Which is why we keep seeing the game get worse and worse with tech being removed (especially character specific Tech) no wavedashing,no L canceling or an auto cancel on aerials that actually let you safely pressure, a decent amount of hit stun and knock back, etc. All these things are needed in the latest Smash Brothers game if we want to finally merge the melee community with the community that will accept anything for a smash game. Now please don't go replying to me saying that you don't need these things to make the game good because even if they were there all you have to do is not use them and just play the game the way you like to while still giving that extra Skil margin with all this stuff for the melee players. But again I repeat this will never happen as long as there are more people that will accept anything like Smash 4 for a good Smash Brothers game
If enough people don't see anything wrong with the game or don't think it's lacking in any way Nintendo will not think anything is wrong with the game. There are a lot more people that are willing to accept anything for a new Smash Brothers. And as long as that's the case Nintendo is not going to see a problem. Which is why we keep seeing the game get worse and worse with tech being removed (especially character specific Tech) no wavedashing,no L canceling or an auto cancel on aerials that actually let you safely pressure, a decent amount of hit stun and knock back, etc. All these things are needed in the latest Smash Brothers game if we want to finally merge the melee community with the community that will accept anything for a smash game. Now please don't go replying to me saying that you don't need these things to make the game good because even if they were there all you have to do is not use them and just play the game the way you like to while still giving that extra Skil margin with all this stuff for the melee players. But again I repeat this will never happen as long as there are more people that will accept anything like Smash 4 for a good Smash Brothers game
The reason that I believe that wave dashing will return is because directional air dodging has returned which was a melee exclusive. I see that the problem that wave dashing could leave some 4 smash players alienated but I believe that this would be exactly like learning to perfect pivot (a new tech only in smash 4). In my opinion it will actually bring in more players since most melee players know/can perform a wave dash. This could bring in more players since it will make the game more competitive.
If wave dashing is in it will only be used for grabbing the ledge or repositioning grabs and specials. Dash attack cancel smash attack will probably take the place of wave dashing in certain situations. Also very many players say it is a lot weaker and since the nerfs to rolls it will be interested how this technique is used. But for the most part I know where you are coming from.
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dahuterschuter
Smash Journeyman
100% correct, thank you for your support.
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Could Wavedashing be in in the final product? Maybe.
Is it right now? No. Wavelanding is, and a weakened version of that.
Let's keep the facts separate from the speculation. I know some want Wavedashing back, and that's fine. But let's not pretend it's been confirmed either.
Is it right now? No. Wavelanding is, and a weakened version of that.
Let's keep the facts separate from the speculation. I know some want Wavedashing back, and that's fine. But let's not pretend it's been confirmed either.
Perfect pivot didn't return either.
I was saying that it was a new technique that people had to learn since it was new to smash 4. I am just so speculating that since directional air dodging has returned so wave dashing could return (from reports very weak).
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Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Given that a huge benefit of wave dashing provided the player with multiple options out of a neutral position, and with the games current dash cancel mechanic fulfilling a good portion of that, i wouldn’t be too bothered if wavedashing didn’t come back. We have dash dancing so neutral is is pretty solid.
if characters can waveland off of the edge of a platform then that will open up a whole world of mobility options and open up greater opportunities to tech chase on platforms.
Game looks like it’s gonna be fun.
if characters can waveland off of the edge of a platform then that will open up a whole world of mobility options and open up greater opportunities to tech chase on platforms.
Game looks like it’s gonna be fun.
It looks like we have plenty of great grounded options in neutral now, enough that would make the grounded Wavedash obsolete.
But the mechanic had another benefit that a lot of people forget, which was platform Wavelanding, something that you can't really replace with other options. Platform Wavelanding gave platforms much more of a purpose than they had in the subsequent titles, as actual, effective surfaces you can use in neutral, instead of just combos extenders.
But the mechanic had another benefit that a lot of people forget, which was platform Wavelanding, something that you can't really replace with other options. Platform Wavelanding gave platforms much more of a purpose than they had in the subsequent titles, as actual, effective surfaces you can use in neutral, instead of just combos extenders.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
I prefer to mostly just lurk Smashboards now but the whole cancel dash in anything makes wavedash obsolete is a bit misguided and it irks me a lil bit.
The thing about that new mechanic is that, most likely, not every character is gonna have a good dash and therefor not make good use of it. Wavedash would actually help out with this.
Furthermore as a project m player where i can already canel dash into anything due to pivot mechanic, wavedash is still super important to the game. One doesn't invalidate the other.
Now personally I would like to see wavedash back solely cause its a really fun mechanic that is also super simple and easy to learn and if it were to be in Ultimate, based on recent trends, it would probably get made even easier to preform then melee or pm.
However its not the end of the world for me as I got what I really wanted back. Better form of dash dancing, maybe not melee or pm level but way bettee then brawl or 4. But I will also fully admit that only having this can put certain characters in a worse spot.
Ultimately though I just take issues with the mindset that since dash cancel is here it makes wavedash obsolete cause that is flat out wrong, and I can actially quote project m as an example cause it has both mechanics in it. The other opinion stuff is subjective though so w/e.
The thing about that new mechanic is that, most likely, not every character is gonna have a good dash and therefor not make good use of it. Wavedash would actually help out with this.
Furthermore as a project m player where i can already canel dash into anything due to pivot mechanic, wavedash is still super important to the game. One doesn't invalidate the other.
Now personally I would like to see wavedash back solely cause its a really fun mechanic that is also super simple and easy to learn and if it were to be in Ultimate, based on recent trends, it would probably get made even easier to preform then melee or pm.
However its not the end of the world for me as I got what I really wanted back. Better form of dash dancing, maybe not melee or pm level but way bettee then brawl or 4. But I will also fully admit that only having this can put certain characters in a worse spot.
Ultimately though I just take issues with the mindset that since dash cancel is here it makes wavedash obsolete cause that is flat out wrong, and I can actially quote project m as an example cause it has both mechanics in it. The other opinion stuff is subjective though so w/e.
Dr. James Rustles
Daxinator
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People who think the dash tech replaces Wavedashing have never tried to do anything out of shield.
Dash canceling has only been confirmed for smash attacks (edit: you can do anything my bad) but it will be very powerful tool. But wave dashing/wave landing will be an effective tool for the ledge game and repositioning other moves. I think both will go hand in hand in the new game and I can’t wait to see what the technique will become.
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Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
This shows you can at least pivot cancel into anything.
https://twitter.com/maxketchum_/status/1007337878030991361?s=21
The question remains whether or not a foward dash can be cancelled into anything.
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Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
You can actually do anything out of it. It was seen in grand finals of the invitational where Zero was doing uptilts with Mario out of dash. But like you said I also look forward to a lot of the stuff. I’m already mentally labbing.
And yeah there is no way that this dash cancel surpasses wavedashing in utility. I’m just trying to find solace in the fact that it may never be as solid as Melee neutral, but it’s a step in the right direction. This is coming from a person who loves to play Falco on Yoshi’s, doing ledge drop fire bird to ledge drop shine wave land on platform shenanigans lol.
At the very least, I would love to slide off ledges with wavelanding. I need to stunt lol
MacDaddyNook
Smash Lord
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I couldn't agree more. Being able to switch to any move out of dash provides players will all the benefits of what wavedashing provided without the unnecessary inputs that bog it down. Much like the removal of manual lag cancelling, it opens the door to more players who wont be forced to mash random buttons just to get an edge. The process is becoming more streamlined, and at the end, the players with the quickest reflexes and best coordination will still come out on top so it's not like the good players will somehow get dragged down by lack of an obsolete tech.
Dr. James Rustles
Daxinator
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Starcutter
Resident Beedrill
All you people are drastically overstating how important wavedashing would be to this game, whether you're against it or for it.
The actual usefulness of wavedashing is more limited than ever, especially now that you can do anything out of a pivot. Wavelanding would be much more useful in this game, and it is in already.
That being said, I hope they implement wavedashing as it will attract more melee and PM players to the new game at little cost to the actual competitive scene.
The actual usefulness of wavedashing is more limited than ever, especially now that you can do anything out of a pivot. Wavelanding would be much more useful in this game, and it is in already.
That being said, I hope they implement wavedashing as it will attract more melee and PM players to the new game at little cost to the actual competitive scene.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
This sounds like more of a personal issue with input compacity, not how intuitive the inputs actually are.
While you do get a great deal of benefits from this tech, such as the option to initiate any move out of dash, there are issues that make it not as useful. Dashes usually have a good amount of start up before you can do anything besides instant dash attack. This trot animation is a predetermined amount of frames before you can end the animation into another action like: A: trot again, B: Shield. If I was a character like Marty, who covered a great deal of range with my initial dash, and I wanted to run towards my opponent and down tilt I have two options. Dash and crouch cancel D-tilt, or wave dash forward and D-tilt, the latter being more effective than the former because a dash is a commitment that forces you out of a neutral position, where as if I were to wave dash I still retain that forward momentum while being in true neutral position and I’m able to act out of it much earlier.
The method for executing this tech required you to dash, release the stick to neutral, then input, or dash, turn around, release, then input. It sounds easy, but it there are several instances where you have to give up control for inputs. A wave dash is inputted simply as jumping and diagonally air dodging towards the ground. All of your fingers have a designated position; your left thumb remaining on the joystick, your right thumb on the jump button, and either your left or right index finger on the shield buttons. This gives you the ability to maintain full control of your character during and after the animation, so to me, that sounds much more intuitive than this dash cancel, even though the dash cancel is definitely more intuitive than a perfect pivot as far as leniency is concerned.
I don’t think it’s fair that you bear so much hostility towards players who practice these mechanics. Sure, they aren’t perfect, but it’s the same as learning integrated mechanics in traditional fighting games, like Street Fighter 4’s Focus Attack Dash Cancel (FADC) or even Hayate Canceling with Makoto in Street Fighter 3, Third Strike, or even Tiger Knee inputs. These are inputs that require much more precision to gain a frame advantage, versus an L-cancel, where you just have to lightly tap L or R to get it. That’s it. No full press. A gentle tap. I’m serious lol
Like I said before, this is a decent substitute for wavedashing, but it does not make it obsolete. Maybe you should redirect your aggression towards practicing how to execute a wave dash or any preferred method of movement in the game of your choice instead of jumping the gun. I’ve played every smash game for extensive periods, and the wavedash still feels fine to me, personally.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
That looks pretty clean. I'm happy with that.
I know how to wavedash in SSBM, but it's not something I've ever cared about. I prefer features to feel intuitive.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I’m gonna have to call bs on what you said; “smash 4 players and new players don’t have the time to learn new tech”? Do these players have a disproportionate amount of time to do things because they are playing these games? I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. If most of them have the time to learn perfect pivoting then they can learn this tech. Isn’t MKLeo one of the best players on the world who STARTED playing competitive smash from Smash 4? But that don’t have the time. Ok.
If you’re dedicated enough to your craft you will learn it and exceed in it exponentially enspite of time limitations or any other external circumstances.
LilTurel
Smash Cadet
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Hey guys what do you think of this Q&A from Armada. In it he basically says that you can wave dash but it's trash. BUT he also says the he and the other players are being given the chance to talk it out and send the dev team feedback.
https://youtu.be/vPgPtlFjeSs
https://youtu.be/vPgPtlFjeSs
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
The question is whether or not it's worth learning it given the execution barrier. To a lot of people, if they have to jump hurdles to do something fundamental, it's not worth their time.
MacDaddyNook
Smash Lord
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I must not be communicating well if anything I say implies hostility or aggression. It's ok, everything is chill on this front and anything I say is not an attack.
My view is that it seems much more efficient, and user friendly, to have the input be "run, stop running, attack" versus "jump, dodge at an angle, attack." I understand that you disagree, and you do bring up a good point about the start-up lag for running. Obsolete probably isn't the most accurate word to, but I do feel like this is a step in the right direction to make competitive more accessible while giving tools for higher-skilled players to use.
People are super lazy. It's gonna be a gigantic turnoff for newer players who want to get in competitively. While it would be a fundamental tech to learn, they're, no doubt, gonna hear about the hand problems that come from long periods of time from doing it and would rather skip out on learning wavedashing and maybe even Smash Ult in general.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Well if they’re too lazy then they can take their asses home.
If you want to compete, you have to put in the work.
Playing games take time
Learning how to execute a specific technique in a video game for the purpose of gaining a competitive edge takes time.
Going to a video game tournament to implement your practices techniques and skills for the sake of winning and gaining skill and recognition, takes time.
Going on a forum to talk about a specific technique in a dedicated video game takes time.
I’ve seen players learn character specific combo/foot stool set ups at outrageous percentages for most characters in the game. If you can learn these things then you can learn a universal mechanic.
If these players are being lazy then these techniques are not for them. I just believe that using time as an argument given the subject of the discussion sounds ludicrous. The belief that the players who dedicated time to improve should be punished because others have not spent their time adequately isn’t going to help anyone, and it’s a logical step backwards. It’s the same mentality that made Brawl what it was.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Melee in general is known to have developed carpal tunnel in longtime players. It's caused some to retire from Melee outright. Wavedashing isn't the sole culprit but rather the high APM (actions per minute) of high level Melee play.
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Dr. James Rustles
Daxinator
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Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (as with a pinched nerve in the wrist) associated with playing Melee is real but overblown. You can get Carpal tunnel from any repetitive and intense task that uses your wrists. Wavedashing is probably the weakest contributor, however. The motion for Fox's short hop double laser, for example, requires quick use of the wrist and is way more of a strain on the hand than wavedashing, which requires only the use of your digits.
Mew2King is an example of a famous player with CTS. The armchair physicians up here at Smashboards are quick to make him the poster child of Melee-induced CTS, even though M2K has likely played more Super Smash Bros. than any person alive - let alone Melee - and more than that he has poor companion health habits, which makes him the worst example you can provide.
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