The Future of Robin

[Pegasus Knight]

Don't get jabbed in the middle of the stage then. Maybe try getting jabbed by the ledge so it's not as many.

I'm sorry, did you just tell us to just... cede control of most of the stage to Fox and stay over the by the edge, just so we can't get 0-deathed? I understand that might be a smart thing to do, but doesn't "you give up about 80% of the stage to him just so you can stand something resembling a chance" sound like a major failure in balance? Doesn't that sound like a really, really good reason to switch to another character for that matchup? EDIT: Because it means I can't really edgeguard him, for fear if he gets back on I'll eat the 0-infinite from one edge to another. Which has happened to me before.

I'm gonna point something out to all of you. Dath and I are the best Robin players not named Nairo, and we are telling you this **** is doable.

And the best Robin player actually named Nairo seems to have bailed on the character. I can't say I blame him.

I respect all the information you've shared about Robin; it has helped my play immensely. I respect that you're a good player. I am not convinced Robin has the tools to truly win at this point, and in light of so many problems ("can be hit by the infinite combo", "jab broken over the last few patches", "gets out-shot by most shooting characters and out-melee by most close range characters, some of whom have better infinite-use aerials than the Levin Sword limited use aerials are", etc)...

...I'm going to have to see genuine results at a major before I go "I was wrong and you were so very right."

Because right now when I switch to Ryu or Peach or Ness or pretty much half of the rest of the roster I get far better results than I do with Robin. And it's not because I'm going "hurr durr I want to rush in for an 180 hit combo and teabag the opponent afterward (destroying my Gamecube controller in the process from showing off tons of 'Advanced Techs') like I'm playing Fox." I know you have to play smart and patient with Robin. Even with that in mind, I truly think you're overrating the character. EDIT: Yes, I am saying evaluating Robin as 'mid tier' is overrating the character.

I wish you the best of luck at Evo, but am honestly expecting that your character choice will hold you back. I hope you prove me wrong and post in our social thread in point 36 font, blinking red text, "Ahahahaha Pegasus Knight I TOLD YOU SO AHAHAHAHAHA" when you do, but I'm not confident it will happen.

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

Because right now when I switch to Ryu or Peach or Ness or pretty much half of the rest of the roster I get far better results than I do with Robin.

Every stop and think that maybe Robin doesn't suit your playstyle?

 

[Nah]

You're going to have to explain to me how the Shiek matchup is not pretty bad for Robin

And I mean it as a genuine question. I'm well aware that I do not qualify as a good Robin or a good Smasher in general and that my losses are entirely my fault (or sometimes partly due to lag). And despite any frustrated grumblings I may occasionally have with Robin, I'll main her till the end. I just have a hard time seeing how the Shiek matchup is only -1.

"jab broken over the last few patches"

Pretty sure that jab is overall better since 1.0.6 than before 1.0.6......

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Every stop and think that maybe Robin doesn't suit your playstyle?

Ever stop and think that maybe that's not a very helpful reply? Ever stop and read the point where I acknowledged Robin is not a "180 hit combo and teabag the opponent after your leet advanced techs" character? I say this in full sarcasm: Thank you for insulting remarks; I needed those.

@ Nah : You can be hit out of the jab now in many cases. Jab 1 works fine, but the transition to jab 2 or either finisher can often be interrupted. This was not previously the case. I'd gladly have the old jab back at this rate even if the new wind jab helps against Fox and Sheik.

 

[C0rvus]

Ehhh I'm just going to do everyone a favor and stop ******** about this character. I like him, I'll play him. We'll see what happens. It's not like the matches I've been losing would go much better if I played a high tier character. I think the lesson I'm starting to learn is that no matter who you play, you generally still lose to people who are better than you. Since I have nowhere to go but up, I may as well do it with a character I'm attached to. Wario kinda suits my playstyle and is inarguably a better character, but i don't even like looking at him.

If anything, Robin is an excellent learning tool. No cheese, no broken stuff, just an honest, challenging character who pushes the limits of the player's understanding of the game. I also like that about Bowser, who I have been training with. The game isn't fun if you don't like your characters. (Or when your opponent is playing Sheik, but I digress.) I think it's time the scales were tipped, no?

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

Ever stop and think that maybe that's not a very helpful reply? Ever stop and read the point where I acknowledged Robin is not a "180 hit combo and teabag the opponent after your leet advanced techs" character? I say this in full sarcasm: Thank you for insulting remarks; I needed those.

@ Nah : You can be hit out of the jab now in many cases. Jab 1 works fine, but the transition to jab 2 or either finisher can often be interrupted. This was not previously the case. I'd gladly have the old jab back at this rate even if the new wind jab helps against Fox and Sheik.

Ok, dude? You're being way too aggressive.
I wasn't meaning to be insulting. I was asking a genuine question. If the character doesn't click with how you play, you might not use them to the greatest efficiency.
Again, not being insulting here. So cool your jets.

 

[Tricky Al]

Ehhh I'm just going to do everyone a favor and stop ******** about this character. I like him, I'll play him. We'll see what happens. It's not like the matches I've been losing would go much better if I played a high tier character. I think the lesson I'm starting to learn is that no matter who you play, you generally still lose to people who are better than you. Since I have nowhere to go but up, I may as well do it with a character I'm attached to. Wario kinda suits my playstyle and is inarguably a better character, but i don't even like looking at him.

If anything, Robin is an excellent learning tool. No cheese, no broken stuff, just an honest, challenging character who pushes the limits of the player's understanding of the game. I also like that about Bowser, who I have been training with. The game isn't fun if you don't like your characters. (Or when your opponent is playing Sheik, but I digress.) I think it's time the scales were tipped, no?

If you ever wanna do dittos I'm down: TrickyAl

I'm ususally on late though.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Ok, dude? You're being way too aggressive.
I wasn't meaning to be insulting. I was asking a genuine question. If the character doesn't click with how you play, you might not use them to the greatest efficiency.
Again, not being insulting here. So cool your jets.

My apologies. The wording did seem hostile.

I understand Robin just fine, in any case.

 

[Zareidriel]

I feel like we've gotten somewhat off-topic, lol.

I'm gonna point something out to all of you. Dath and I are the best Robin players not named Nairo, and we are telling you this **** is doable.

For that honor, I think I would personally nominate Trela or Skorpio. And sure, beating anyone with any character is "doable", but how much better than them do you have to be to win? Against a fox of equal skill, it's not going to be easy by any means. Having such a dominating tool against us, with a reflector like that one, is pretty bleak. Doable? Certainly. But bleak.

And I'm not sure about Fox, but I'd say Sheik is certainly a bad enough matchup to consider using a different character against her. Trust me, I'm all for keeping the faith with Robin, trying to fight tricky matchups, and experimenting with different tactics to face adversaries that may hold an advantage. But that doesn't mean we should demonize having a secondary or even a tertiary for some of those trickier matchups, as long as those characters are fun to play for you and you think they're significantly more effective.

For example, a lot of the matchups I don't enjoy with Robin seem to be countered very effectively with Roy (Olimar, Ness, etc). Except Sheik, for whom I'm currently looking for a tertiary to fight her specifically. Possibly Rosa, Lucario, or the devil herself.

 

[Meneil]

I guess it depends on how one defines 'doable.' No one in here is arguing that Robin has an advantage against high tiers, most going with a disadvantage and some closer to even. 40-60 matchups in my opinion are doable. (Maybe it's because I mained a low tier in Brawl.) The difference between a 30-70 matchup is real though. I wouldn't deem it impossible, but it would be enough to make me switch to another character.

If Robin's -1 matchups are enough to switch off in tournament - the player will likely choose a high tier to counter the 'bad' matchups. But if that's the case, it's easy to fall into the common low/mid tier dilemma... when should I pick Robin over my high tier secondary? Looking strictly at math, the secondary is always going to be a better option. Nairo gets this, and plays to win, and there's nothing wrong with that. Pit/Dark Pit still have their situational uses for him, but ZSS just offers more.

I don't really think Robin's matchups are down to a science yet though - which is likely why everyone has a wide range of opinions when it comes to matchups. This includes not only Robins, but other players as well - since Robin is so underutilized, not many know how to fully exploit Robin's weaknesses.

Regardless of where Robin falls into the tier list, or what constitutes a 'doable' match, having a clear goal for Smash is a good idea. Feeling frustrated at Robin's faults, or overwhelmed by certain matchups, is a pretty good indicator to at least try a secondary - if not find a new main.

 

[Dathx]

Oh boy

The only time it'd be 100% your fault is if you are better then your opponent skill wise and still lose. If people are of even skill or your opponent is better then anything below a +0 MU isn't going to go well for Robin on average. .

Just to clarify, are you saying that if your opponent has more skill than you it is not 100% your fault that you lost?

I'm not sure I'm willing to accept "vulnerable to this character's infinite" as "oh that match isn't so bad, no reason to change characters at least."

Being able to be 0-to-deathed off a jab sounds like about as good a reason as I'll ever get to not use Robin against Fox.

First off, a lot of characters get "0-deathed" off of Fox jab. Also, I have yet to get hit by a fox's "jab infinite". Yes, I have gotten jabbed 3-4 times into dsmash, but that happens to a lot of characters. You cannot be mad that Fox has a few kill confirms off 2-3 quick moves considering he does not have a kill-throw. Next, the fox MU is pretty simple. You get ~20% off wind jab and edge-guarding fox is either throw a thunder spell off stage or arcfire the ledge to force him to fire fox, then just trade LSDair into his fire fox.

You're going to have to explain to me how the Shiek matchup is not pretty bad for Robin

And I mean it as a genuine question. I'm well aware that I do not qualify as a good Robin or a good Smasher in general and that my losses are entirely my fault (or sometimes partly due to lag). And despite any frustrated grumblings I may occasionally have with Robin, I'll main her till the end. I just have a hard time seeing how the Shiek matchup is only -1.

I spent a good amount of time working on this MU to try and learn it. I had previously given up hope as well, but now I understand a few things that help tremendously. So much that I currently think the MU is 45-55 in Sheik's favor. Here's a few general tips:

-NEVER Arcfire in Neutral, and rarely otherwise. The only "OK" time is when Sheik is below the stage, where you can Arcfire the ledge.
-LSFair, LSUair, and Jab are your best friends. They are huge, disjointed, do good damage, kill, and have almost no end-lag. Hit about 4 times with jab or a simple 2 hit combo and then you can kill sheik. Sheik needs to hit you like 20+ times.
-This is the one MU where you charge Arcthunder and then pretend you are a rush-down character aka Marth (I actually find it pretty funny that someone mentioned somewhere that Robin is unable to rush someone down, but this MU's success is based purely on the fact that you CAN).
-NEVER Airdodge, DI and mash jump out of throws unless you KNOW they have to go for uair/fair, and even then don't always airdodge.
-You can trade with needles with elthunder or arcthunder depending on the distance, Sheik actually has lot of end-lag on fully charged needles.
-Something that I'm working on is using LSDair to catch Sheik's 2-frame ledge-grab. If I could master this, this MU would be in Robin's favor.
-This MU definitely takes practice. I spent about 2-3 hours grinding it out to learn everything, and then probably another 5 hours of playing different good Sheiks before I was confident.
-I think I posted a video example and some other tips earlier on in this thread, you should check it out.

Just as an aside, NEVER use a bronze sword aerial if you can Levin sword.

I guess it depends on how one defines 'doable.' No one in here is arguing that Robin has an advantage against high tiers, most going with a disadvantage and some closer to even. 40-60 matchups in my opinion are doable. (Maybe it's because I mained a low tier in Brawl.) The difference between a 30-70 matchup is real though. I wouldn't deem it impossible, but it would be enough to make me switch to another character.

I don't really think Robin's matchups are down to a science yet though - which is likely why everyone has a wide range of opinions when it comes to matchups. This includes not only Robins, but other players as well - since Robin is so underutilized, not many know how to fully exploit Robin's weaknesses.

Regardless of where Robin falls into the tier list, or what constitutes a 'doable' match, having a clear goal for Smash is a good idea. Feeling frustrated at Robin's faults, or overwhelmed by certain matchups, is a pretty good indicator to at least try a secondary - if not find a new main.

I am arguing that Robin has good MUs against high tiers though. In fact, the high tiers I think Robin does well against are (as in I would recommend someone switch to Robin if they were comfortable with him/her if they have trouble with these MUs):

-Falcon
-Ness
-Luigi
-Sheik (relatively to the rest of the cast)
-Yoshi

Those that I did not list are either even, or slight disadvantage. As an example, I think Robin's worst MUs are:

-Pikachu
-Brawler (probably the worst, but hopefully no more customs)
-ROB
-Lucario
-Diddy Kong (yes post patch)

These "bad" MUs could also just be my inexperience though. If I was able to practice these and learn them, they might be pretty good. I feel like Robin has the perfect kit for being able to adjust to any MU. Which is actually why I started an excel sheet that has notes and MU statistics for every character.

There are other things I want to say, but I'll leave it for another time.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

However, I have been hit by it and that has a very chilling effect on my opinion of the matchup. I'll be delighted if you or Raziek prove me wrong at Evo, but I do not hold high hopes it will happen. Robin seems very underwhelming now that people have figured out how she fights and matchup unfamiliarity isn't handing us easy wins.

 

[xStarLordx]

The only thing i want is that Robin has at least 100 on weight..i mean ¿95 and she's slower?come on...

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

Oh boy



-Falcon
-Ness
-Luigi
-Sheik (relatively to the rest of the cast)
-Yoshi

Those that I did not list are either even, or slight disadvantage. As an example, I think Robin's worst MUs are:

-Pikachu
-Brawler (probably the worst, but hopefully no more customs)
-ROB
-Lucario
-Diddy Kong (yes post patch)

These "bad" MUs could also just be my inexperience though. If I was able to practice these and learn them, they might be pretty good. I feel like Robin has the perfect kit for being able to adjust to any MU. Which is actually why I started an excel sheet that has notes and MU statistics for every character.

There are other things I want to say, but I'll leave it for another time.

With Falcon, I'd say it's about even. He has the grab combos at his disposal, but he's pretty predictable. Any time he runs towards you, he'll be going to fast to block most projectiles at close-mid range.

 

[Silverfox117]

Oh boy



Just to clarify, are you saying that if your opponent has more skill than you it is not 100% your fault that you lost?



First off, a lot of characters get "0-deathed" off of Fox jab. Also, I have yet to get hit by a fox's "jab infinite". Yes, I have gotten jabbed 3-4 times into dsmash, but that happens to a lot of characters. You cannot be mad that Fox has a few kill confirms off 2-3 quick moves considering he does not have a kill-throw. Next, the fox MU is pretty simple. You get ~20% off wind jab and edge-guarding fox is either throw a thunder spell off stage or arcfire the ledge to force him to fire fox, then just trade LSDair into his fire fox.



I spent a good amount of time working on this MU to try and learn it. I had previously given up hope as well, but now I understand a few things that help tremendously. So much that I currently think the MU is 45-55 in Sheik's favor. Here's a few general tips:

-NEVER Arcfire in Neutral, and rarely otherwise. The only "OK" time is when Sheik is below the stage, where you can Arcfire the ledge.
-LSFair, LSUair, and Jab are your best friends. They are huge, disjointed, do good damage, kill, and have almost no end-lag. Hit about 4 times with jab or a simple 2 hit combo and then you can kill sheik. Sheik needs to hit you like 20+ times.
-This is the one MU where you charge Arcthunder and then pretend you are a rush-down character aka Marth (I actually find it pretty funny that someone mentioned somewhere that Robin is unable to rush someone down, but this MU's success is based purely on the fact that you CAN).
-NEVER Airdodge, DI and mash jump out of throws unless you KNOW they have to go for uair/fair, and even then don't always airdodge.
-You can trade with needles with elthunder or arcthunder depending on the distance, Sheik actually has lot of end-lag on fully charged needles.
-Something that I'm working on is using LSDair to catch Sheik's 2-frame ledge-grab. If I could master this, this MU would be in Robin's favor.
-This MU definitely takes practice. I spent about 2-3 hours grinding it out to learn everything, and then probably another 5 hours of playing different good Sheiks before I was confident.
-I think I posted a video example and some other tips earlier on in this thread, you should check it out.

Just as an aside, NEVER use a bronze sword aerial if you can Levin sword.


I am arguing that Robin has good MUs against high tiers though. In fact, the high tiers I think Robin does well against are (as in I would recommend someone switch to Robin if they were comfortable with him/her if they have trouble with these MUs):

-Falcon
-Ness
-Luigi
-Sheik (relatively to the rest of the cast)
-Yoshi

Those that I did not list are either even, or slight disadvantage. As an example, I think Robin's worst MUs are:

-Pikachu
-Brawler (probably the worst, but hopefully no more customs)
-ROB
-Lucario
-Diddy Kong (yes post patch)

These "bad" MUs could also just be my inexperience though. If I was able to practice these and learn them, they might be pretty good. I feel like Robin has the perfect kit for being able to adjust to any MU. Which is actually why I started an excel sheet that has notes and MU statistics for every character.

There are other things I want to say, but I'll leave it for another time.

Dude I agree with you completely with what you are saying. After training with Gohan's luigi and falcon for a few months now I can safely say we definitely win those MU hands down, but can you explain to me how Mii Brawler is a bad MU, because albeit I don't have much tournament experience of brawler at all, but I think if we treat that Match up like how you treat Luigi we do fairly well. I don't know tho I haven't really played a brawler of notable talents yet.

Also I haven't yet played you or Raziek yet I would love to do that sometime everyone needs to get there arse kicked in after a while XD.

 

[shane3x]

Just to clarify, are you saying that if your opponent has more skill than you it is not 100% your fault that you lost?

Thats not even what I said.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Well... at this point most or all of the Robins in Evo have been eliminated, right? Seems like a good time to discuss the future of Robin. Sure, Custom Specials helped Robin a bit in this outing but the character does not become radically different with them off so I think we can still glean some general info here.

At least one Robin made it out of their pools (which on its own doesn't prove all THAT much)... and then proceeded to get a meaningful win in Quarter-Finals (which DOES prove a few things). Unfortunately I wasn't able to catch much of the events on day 1 due to work stuff, but... am I right in believing that this is a better showing than several other characters had? Were there some who just outright failed to get out of any pools, or if they did get through were immediately defeated in quarter-finals?

It would suggest Robin isn't at least completely hopeless. Certainly not the worst in the game (which only a few people were saying to begin with, but I pounce on that extreme position for the sake of illustrating a topic here). Maybe still very troubled, but apparently better off than some characters at this rate, right?

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

I'm starting to think that Robin isn't really thought to be bad, but rather has been slept on to hell and back,

 

[BballLuke13]

These "bad" MUs could also just be my inexperience though. If I was able to practice these and learn them, they might be pretty good. I feel like Robin has the perfect kit for being able to adjust to any MU. Which is actually why I started an excel sheet that has notes and MU statistics for every character.

I would really like to see that Excel sheet.

Anyway, every mock tier list I've looked at has listed Robin around low-mid tier, which is a bit low, in my opinion, but not too far off. She (or he) is at the spot where she's not getting much attention; not low-tier, but not high-tier. I think people just need to spend more time on her, she has a lot of variation with the Bronze and Levin Swords which could possibly be used for some combo setups or something. I know there are some good setups off of discarded tomes. And even if nothing new is discovered and we don't get a patch, Robin is still capable of winning. I think part of these MU problems (not all of it, of course) are just people's playstyles not working against certain characters; every MU is possible with the right adaptations.

 

[Meneil]

I just want to add. Robin is currently a very under-repped character. Even at large tournaments like EVO, the amount of Robins active in their community that entered is low... very low... like I only know of two/three that entered, and one of those is Japanese. Tournament results are not going to be all that accurate of an indicator, due simply to sample size.

Regardless of where Robin falls exactly in the tier list, I also don't feel like tiers are as pronounced as they are in other games. Like in Brawl, there were literally 'impossible' matchups (0-death chaingrabs that required little tech) or many that were 30-70 for low tiers, even mid-tiers. Even if Robin is 'worse' compared to other characters, I don't think it's going to be by much. Is it really horrible to think we might have 5% less average MU advantage than other characters? I'd love to compile a list of community %s for all Robin matchups, someday...

 

[xStarLordx]

I just want to add. Robin is currently a very under-repped character. Even at large tournaments like EVO, the amount of Robins active in their community that entered is low... very low... like I only know of two/three that entered, and one of those is Japanese. Tournament results are not going to be all that accurate of an indicator, due simply to sample size.

Regardless of where Robin falls exactly in the tier list, I also don't feel like tiers are as pronounced as they are in other games. Like in Brawl, there were literally 'impossible' matchups (0-death chaingrabs that required little tech) or many that were 30-70 for low tiers, even mid-tiers. Even if Robin is 'worse' compared to other characters, I don't think it's going to be by much. Is it really horrible to think we might have 5% less average MU advantage than other characters? I'd love to compile a list of community %s for all Robin matchups, someday...

Wow..¿that low? well,more reasons to main her,then!

 

[_Shinta_]

Im new to the competitive scene so take what I say with a grain of salt, but most matches I've lost has been due to a better more experienced player, matchup inexperience of character, or loss of focus (this I've personally been struggling with).

As I play more and learn about matchups via threads or videos, I feel like Robin is definitely within the Top 20 of the cast. I feel like (s)he goes just about even or 60/40s with all top tiers and 50/50s or advantages with everyone else. Robin can camp, be aggressive, bait, punish hard, and literally switch play styles mid game.

Just my personal opinion but a truly optimize Robin player may be a mix of Nairo's aggression, with Dath's / Razieks great Defensive game combined with Mr II (from japan) item play.

If Robin was faster then the character will break the games balance. Less lag on Arc Fire and better grab range would help for sure. Maybe better mobility in the air. But the character is fine as is.

With all that said, I suck. But made it to Gold 3 on smash ladder. yay.

Keep it up Robin mains

 

[Zareidriel]

I don't see you in Gold for Robin, the only others besides myself are Pitzer and Nevrast. Do you play a different ladder or maybe 3DS?

Honestly I can agree Robin is 10-20th place. Though in Sm4sh it's very hard to tell. She's an extremely powerful character with a smorgasbord of fluctuating options. And beautiful setups that can go even farther than "3 steps ahead".

I believe we're not even close to seeing a true Robin God-player among us. He or she might not even fully develop and appear for another year or two. I think it will be exciting when it happens though, it would be nice to have some really technical and impressive Robin to watch, like is available for many other characters.

 

[_Shinta_]

I don't see you in Gold for Robin, the only others besides myself are Pitzer and Nevrast. Do you play a different ladder or maybe 3DS?

I play on the 3ds because I only have a 3ds at the moment. So playing at locals with an actual controller is sorta strange haha. My name is Shinta7 on smash ladder and as of this post am number 2. I assume the Wii u smash ladder is tougher? Locals in my region SoCal is really fun and tough so I know I have a long way to go to get better.

Do you know of any other Ladders / places I can do to play competitively / improve.

Honestly I can agree Robin is 10-20th place. Though in Sm4sh it's very hard to tell. She's an extremely powerful character with a smorgasbord of fluctuating options. And beautiful setups that can go even farther than "3 steps ahead".

I believe we're not even close to seeing a true Robin God-player among us. He or she might not even fully develop and appear for another year or two. I think it will be exciting when it happens though, it would be nice to have some really technical and impressive Robin to watch, like is available for many other characters.

You're talking about the future me

Also Btw I had read your entire guide. Great stuff. Despite what others may say I enjoy your use of COLORS

 

[Meneil]

I personally have no idea if 3DS is harder than Wii U, since I've only laddered on Wii U. But the population is certainly larger for Wii U. There are other places to ladder but Anther's is prob your best shot.

Glad to hear you've found a great community offline! I've heard good things about SoCal. Honestly if you enjoy the game, that is probably your best bet, both in terms of community and improving your game.

 

[Glory Blaze]

I play on the 3ds because I only have a 3ds at the moment. So playing at locals with an actual controller is sorta strange haha. My name is Shinta7 on smash ladder and as of this post am number 2. I assume the Wii u smash ladder is tougher? Locals in my region SoCal is really fun and tough so I know I have a long way to go to get better.

Do you know of any other Ladders / places I can do to play competitively / improve.



You're talking about the future me

Also Btw I had read your entire guide. Great stuff. Despite what others may say I enjoy your use of COLORS

Hey, another SoCal Robin! Nice! Although you're probably much better than me since I only do well at super-local tournaments that have < 30 people, none of whom are known xD

 

[Zareidriel]

I play on the 3ds because I only have a 3ds at the moment. So playing at locals with an actual controller is sorta strange haha. My name is Shinta7 on smash ladder and as of this post am number 2. I assume the Wii u smash ladder is tougher? Locals in my region SoCal is really fun and tough so I know I have a long way to go to get better.

Do you know of any other Ladders / places I can do to play competitively / improve

You're talking about the future me

Also Btw I had read your entire guide. Great stuff. Despite what others may say I enjoy your use of COLORS

Ah I see I see. Congratulations on being #2 Robin! I'm sure it took a lot of work. I couldn't say for sure but I bet Wii is a bit tougher. Since it's like "the scene" I bet the folks there take it a little more seriously. Honestly the best thing you could do for your game is to get the Wii U. Whether it means mowing lawns or whatever. Since the only way to get good at tournaments is by going to tournaments, and you'll always be at a disadvantage using the 3DS as a controller. And honestly there really IS nowhere else to go besides Smashladder.

What a coincidence, I'm actually hoping it's gonna be yours truly though it's taking a lot of work to catch up to all the former Brawl players. Only time will tell! And thanks! I've actually been working on ver. 2.0 in class lately, it's gonna have a lot of higher-level content you might be interested in.

Colors just aren't appreciated anymore these days.

 

[_Shinta_]

Ah I see I see. Congratulations...
What a coincidence, I'm actually hoping it's gonna be yours truly though it's taking a lot of work to catch up to all the former Brawl players. Only time will tell! And thanks! I've actually been working on ver. 2.0 in class lately, it's gonna have a lot of higher-level content you might be interested in.

Colors just aren't appreciated anymore these days.

Haha yea all these people who have years of experience. Oh well just makes us the surprise underdogs. Will certainly check out the updates on the guide.

 

[_Shinta_]

Hey, another SoCal Robin! Nice! Although you're probably much better than me since I only do well at super-local tournaments that have < 30 people, none of whom are known xD

Hmm do you go to F&D or MSM? They are the only two I've been to at the moment. I've also been to the Indigo Plateau and SSS regional that has occurred recently. Perhaps we saw each other. Hint, I look nothing like this profile pic

 

[Glory Blaze]

Hmm do you go to F&D or MSM? They are the only two I've been to at the moment. I've also been to the Indigo Plateau and SSS regional that has occurred recently. Perhaps we saw each other. Hint, I look nothing like this profile pic

Haha I wish. I go to a local in Simi Valley that has like 0 notable or even seminotable players. I was at Paragon, tho (met Dath and got his autograph like a nerd lol), you might have seen me there if you went. (I also obviously look nothing like my profile pic, mainly because I am a dude)

 

[PK Gaming]

I believe we're not even close to seeing a true Robin God-player among us. He or she might not even fully develop and appear for another year or two. I think it will be exciting when it happens though, it would be nice to have some really technical and impressive Robin to watch, like is available for many other characters.

No, that's wrong

1) Expecting a God player for a character like Robin is pointless because there are factors beyond player skill that determine whether a God player emergess for a given character.

2) You're seriously underselling Robin players like Dath and NickRiddle (the latter whom pockets Robin) who display extremely competent, high level play and are most definitely impressive to watch. You're also underselling people like Raziek who put serious work into developing the character.

3) This "Robin has unlimited potential" narrative is bull****. Robin is a character with clear definable limitations. It's the people who are putting work into Robin NOW that will take him/her to the next level, not some mystical God player that will come out from nowhere.

 

[Zareidriel]

1) What sort of factors, besides skill? I was referring, mostly, to tournament results. (Placing high at nationals, winning regionals, etc)

2) I am not underselling or insulting any of our wonderful Tacticians. I made no such statement. I do believe the title of "GOD" should not be given out so easily.

3) This last statement seems to contradict itself? I can agree wholeheartedly with "It's the people who are putting work into Robin NOW that will take him/her to the next level". I'm not referring to some mystical and mysterious player.

The God-like Robin player I'm referring to is simply the one, whether it be one of us here, someone you mentioned, or whomever else, begins to perform extremely well at tournaments in such a large way that it brings doubt to peoples' current ideas of the "tier lists" and represents our character at the highest levels of play alongside the likes of ESAM, Nairo, Ally, and all the rest. I don't count Nairo or NickRiddle because they don't achieve the bulk of their tournament victories with Robin, instead relying on other characters. If one uses Robin for most matchups but pulls out a secondary for tougher ones, that's fine, but the aforementioned players do things the other way around, and pull out Robin only on occasion.

I think you have assigned some sort of narrative to ME, because you seemed to have drawn a lot of conclusions from words I did not say.

 

[PK Gaming]

Think about what those "God players" you listed have in common; those players have that kind of dominance because their mains facilitate their success. To put it another way, we would definitely have "God tier" Robin main if Robin was a stronger character. Hell, NickRiddle has explicitly said he would main Robin if he was a stronger character. Nairo would most likely main Robin if he was a stronger character. Dath would be doing far better if Robin was a stronger character.

Now keep in mind, i'm not saying Robin is a bad character (far from it, I think he's pretty damn solid now) but only a fool would ignore how important character choice is. That's why your assertion rubs me the wrong way, because it's predicated on the idea that none of our Robin's have gotten "there yet." Our Robin's are at that level. Dath is beast of a player who has taken games of strong opponents. NickRiddle is easily one of the best Robin's out there, and I don't think like the idea of shortchanging him because he doesn't main the character.

We'll probably never see a "God Robin player" dominate on the level that Nairo, Ally, Zero, etc do. But at the same time, guys like Dath and NickRiddle will continue to push the character to his limit and do well with them. And who knows, if Robin were to be sufficiently buffed, we might actually see someone like Dath or NickRiddle regularly get top 8 (or higher) with Robin.

Sorry for being aggressive, but I just couldn't abide by your logic.

 

[_Shinta_]

I wanna just take a quick moment and say good luck to @Raziek with his match against Zero tomorrow at TBH! Give him hell! Out trade that sheik! Don't get Banana'd grabbed! You got this!

 

[Deoxippus]

I think the best thing for the future of Robin would be a rather severe nerf to ZSS... and maybe another to Pit/Dark Pit while we are at it.

Honestly I just wish they would make both halves of Elwind count as a total of one use. I can plan for her throwing that book away and avoid getting thrown off for 6 seconds, but those close games where you die because you only got half way back are just soul crushing. Honestly, I think they should do something to make her recovery a touch stronger. Her recovery runs out. Shouldn't it be stronger to make up for it?

Anyway, anyone know where I can see that Raziek vs. Zero game? I'm new here. 1st post and 1st smash game.

 

[The_Cardinal]

I think the best thing for the future of Robin would be a rather severe nerf to ZSS... and maybe another to Pit/Dark Pit while we are at it.

Honestly I just wish they would make both halves of Elwind count as a total of one use. I can plan for her throwing that book away and avoid getting thrown off for 6 seconds, but those close games where you die because you only got half way back are just soul crushing. Honestly, I think they should do something to make her recovery a touch stronger. Her recovery runs out. Shouldn't it be stronger to make up for it?

Anyway, anyone know where I can see that Raziek vs. Zero game? I'm new here. 1st post and 1st smash game.

First off, welcome to the boards. I hope you enjoy your time here.

In regards to your question, the Raziek vs ZeRo game, it unfortunately took place off-stream earlier today. Raziek loss but he took a game off of ZeRo's Sheik, which is a feat in it of itself.