The Falchions Match-Up Discussion (Week 1: Sheik)

[Locuan]

Image Credit: Quas-Quas​

Welcome to the new Match-Up Discussion format. We will start this week with the Shiek Match-Up Discussion. Main Thread.

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only || ?
Default + Custom || ?
Difference || ?

Discussion will include match-ups in both the custom and no custom environment. Let's begin!

 

[Xisin]

I want to post something meaningful but I can't really. I'll talk I guess though.

As we know sheik fairs quite a bit, our moves actually beat it out, it comes down to being super super precise though, but that's this match in a nutshell, sheik gets to jump around all willy-nilly and you have to pick your hits accordingly.

short db seems to beat out bouncing fish for me the easiest, it's to be understood though we can knock her out of BF with anything as long as we time it properly, you can just fsmash her out of the park, if you time it well enough.

Sheik's major weakness becomes our crutch in this mu, she cannot kill - what this means is as long as you do not panic air dodge and jump away from her throws you'll be ok until roughly 170%. a 120%+ marth is terrifying due to a good hit being able to kill her at 50 or so. That being said if sheik ****s up hard when you are raging knock her out, ftilt does wonders if you dont want a huge commitment.

Bouncing fish cannot be countered however if the shiek spaces the kick properly, it simply will not happen, you'll merely whiff the blade hit as she kicks away.

up throw starts to kill sheik at around 120 in rage, abuse this, love this, this is of course not on battlefield but platforms can make it easier also.

up-bing out of shield is fairly potent, but at low percents if you do it, you may just end up in another combo string.

red dbs on shiek til 35%~ then swap to blues, after 90% just use the first two hits unless you really feel you'll hit with the 4th red, then by all means, ko her.

with customs on crescent is tricky to hit on shiek due to her light weight, that being said she dies super early on stages with shallow blast zones, such as delfino, i.e grab shiek at 40% closeish to ledge, drop the crescent then observe the salt flow.

Dash assault works ok in the mu but I'll always prefer my standard breaker at this point, it kills her pretty easy and isn't impossible to hit on short hop.

if sheik throw a nade you can punish as she's throwing this is for both popular versions of the nade to, don't panic and dash to db her, or dash attack or something of that nature.

Overall this match up... needs more research i don't think it's insanely terrible anymore since bair isn't killing you, rather she relies on up airs and bouncing fishes, the BF isn't an issue just don't air dodge next to her, the up air, i saw vinnie connecting with it this weekend fairly accurately so others may be doing it incorrectly but in my experience you can just burn your DJ and get away from her after the throw, way better than dying to the up air.

-1 for both lords. Honestly, they both perform about on par, lucinas fsmash is not to be overlooked on reliability.

 

[Locuan]

@ Xisin , I recommend checking out the main thread so you have an idea of how match-up scoring will be handled from now on. Regardless I'll quote it here as well:

1. The scoring system will also be different. It will not involve match-up ratios. When indicating match-up scoring one will state if you feel the match-up is even, a small advantage, small disadvantage etc. It is best if you saw how it would work as indicated below:
   • +3 = large advantage
     +2 = moderate advantage
     +1 = small advantage
     ±0 = even
     -1 = small disadvantage
     -2 = moderate disadvantage
     -3 = large disadvantage

 

[Dagon97]

The Marth/Lucina matchup on the Sheik side is honestly very unfavorable for M/L.
Fist let me start off with what is favorable for M/L:
-Even though Sheik has a greater air speed of 1.1 than M/L's 1.02 it is not much in favor of Sheik so M/L can punish an attempted BF recovery.
-Ftilt out-ranges a lot of Sheik's aeiral zoning.
-Single hit db and grab release are devastating to a sheik's momentum.

Outside of that Sheik can almost always Up-B to the ledge for free similarly to Mewtwo.
Sheik just has to wait for M/L to commit to anything and sheik can punish and that is only if the M/L inhumanely persice.

 

[Macchiato]

First off @ Locuan omg your an admin. No longer a RED TYRANT. Congratulations.

Back to Lucina vs Sheik. I'll go with -1.

We have to approach like usually because she has a projectile.

Sheik's Advantages
+ Mobility
+ Frame Data
+ Recovery
+ Has a Projectile
+ Combo Ability

Lucina's Advantage
+ Range
+ Kill Power
+ Weight

In Neutral, we have to space extra precisely. She can very easily punish us due to her veryveryvery fast fair which is veryveryvery safe. Try to not shield too much because she gains much more than us from a grab. If she shields we can throw a shield breaker for pressure. Correct me if I'm wrong but our Ftilt covers all of her ground moves and our fair covers all of her aerial moves. As long as we space we'll be fine. The only way we can edgeguard is the one frame thing. Sheik on the other hand can easilh gimp us. Killing well, she's Sheik. If you can DI expect to live at 150% and above. Marth can kill her at like 40% and Lucina can at like 75%

I give the MU a -1 to both Lucina and Marth

Customs change a lot. Penetrating needles help her diminish our shield and is even better a forcing and approach. Gravity Grenade helps her net kills a bit easier due to it comboing to Usmash. It's still hard to hit with. Dashing Assualt gives us a safe approach and a fast punish tool. Crescent slash gives us 50% true kill combos at the ledge. It also gives us combos at most percents from a grab or attack. Iai counter, prevents some edgeguards and let us reverse Bouncing fish to get like 10% kills if she uses bouncing fish offstage.

I'd say that with customs, it's a +1 to us.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is never +1.

Even with customs. Sheik doesn't have to move. Ever. Vs a Sheik that is willing to play her to her full potential and simply wait, Marcina MUST act and you are always on the losing end of things in terms of data. Grab reward? Sure. Good luck getting the grab.

Also Dashing Assault is not safe. Not even remotely close to it.

Sheik controls space more safely, better more consistent reward on hit, far better trap game, better at getting out of disadvantage.

Just..better.

 

[Pugwest]

70-30 Sheik advantage.

This is our top 3 worst Mu's

Only thing worst is Custom Luigi and Pikachu.

 

[Freelance Spy]

70-30 Sheik advantage.

This is our top 3 worst Mu's

Only thing worst is Custom Luigi and Pikachu.

You think luigi and pikachu are bad? Weird... C falcon is worse than them. We get true comboed into a knee now.


Anywho, as far as the MU goes we are losing because Marth has so much lag everywhere and shiek is literally the epitome of a good perfect punish character. Anything we do BETTER hit or else. We get comboed, we get out ranged, hell we can't even space properly due to shiek's ease of getting in our faces. Without customs is a nightmare as you don't have any sort of quasi approach options that shiek can't deal with. Even with customs on you only get two decent choices in crescent slash and iai counter.

I'd say in this mu iai counter might be less useful due to it's movement, shiek can hit it, be safe from the counter, and then punish your lag on some moves, if the shiek is aware of this you may as well have brought easy counter (lol) because your counter is practically useless for anything unless shiek gets combo greedy. (and since we are talking about played to the best of their abilities here...) So you have to know what moves can actually be countered. That said, shiek's trouble killing makes getting early offstage iai counter KOs more viable. This is an optional custom and I'm not really sure if it changes the score or not. The thing that can be said is this one can kill due to it's angle, and the default will have trouble because shiek doesn't hit hard anyways.

Crescent Slash helps with it's ability to combo and people are saying there is a truedeath combo with it on shiek? The only reason I say it's better is that it forces shiek to respect you while you are in range of her needles. You might think it's better to have dolphin slash to edgegaurd deeper, but in this MU shiek will rarely be low from anything you hit her with so gimping horizontally is a better option. The only thing that I like about the default is going low for a stage spike, but you can still do that (albeit at more precise timing, and less often) with CS. Then again, best to the character's potential here so teching a stagespike isn't that hard when you see your opponent go offstage for it and you have shiek's options at your disposal. Bring CS, you'll need the extra kill option and all the chances you get to hit shiek.

I'd avoid any other customs... Heavy DB needs testing, the windbox stab sucks, dash assault is a trap (seems good until you realize it's unsafe, does minimal damage, doesn't kill etc.) Don't get me started on how BS it is to have something called "easy" moves that do less everything and add MORE lag. **** the guy who thought marth/lucina needed those.


Without customs it's a really bad MU if we are using the character's full potential. definitely a -3. This IS Marth's worst MU.
With is still bad, but now you have options you didn't before and that helps a ton. -1 or -2 here. I'm undecided because I haven't seen the MU enough. You'd think there would be more shiek mains... (I'll make an educated guess and say it's most likely -2, shiek is that good.) I'm laughing at the other ratings I've seen. This is a bad one and you guys are sugar coating a bit.

Oh this is a Luci discussion as well? I think she does slightly better than Marth actually. Because Marth wants to hit perfectly as much as possible, it can be easy for shiek to avoid our zone. Also it does require extra frames to get in the correct position to hit a tipper a lot of times. Luci doesn't have this problem (she has problems, but I don't think they are your biggest worries here). Because Luci is a threat up close, shiek has to be extra respectful in her own range. I think that is pretty useful in the MU. Still a -3 without customs, but with them Luci is closer to a -1 where Marth is at a dubious -1 or -2. One of the ONLY MUs where Lucina seems like a better option than Marth. The other one I know for sure is Shulk, but only because I have quite a bit of testing there, I'm not as sure about this one, but it does feel better...

Mostly, know that if you DO go into this MU with Marth, you are at the disadvantage the entire match. This is one of the MUs that made me pick up other characters. It's bad.

 

[Trunks159]

You think luigi and pikachu are bad? Weird... C falcon is worse than them. We get true comboed into a knee now.


Anywho, as far as the MU goes we are losing because Marth has so much lag everywhere and shiek is literally the epitome of a good perfect punish character. Anything we do BETTER hit or else. We get comboed, we get out ranged, hell we can't even space properly due to shiek's ease of getting in our faces. Without customs is a nightmare as you don't have any sort of quasi approach options that shiek can't deal with. Even with customs on you only get two decent choices in crescent slash and iai counter.

I'd say in this mu iai counter might be less useful due to it's movement, shiek can hit it, be safe from the counter, and then punish your lag on some moves, if the shiek is aware of this you may as well have brought easy counter (lol) because your counter is practically useless for anything unless shiek gets combo greedy. (and since we are talking about played to the best of their abilities here...) So you have to know what moves can actually be countered. That said, shiek's trouble killing makes getting early offstage iai counter KOs more viable. This is an optional custom and I'm not really sure if it changes the score or not. The thing that can be said is this one can kill due to it's angle, and the default will have trouble because shiek doesn't hit hard anyways.

Crescent Slash helps with it's ability to combo and people are saying there is a truedeath combo with it on shiek? The only reason I say it's better is that it forces shiek to respect you while you are in range of her needles. You might think it's better to have dolphin slash to edgegaurd deeper, but in this MU shiek will rarely be low from anything you hit her with so gimping horizontally is a better option. The only thing that I like about the default is going low for a stage spike, but you can still do that (albeit at more precise timing, and less often) with CS. Then again, best to the character's potential here so teching a stagespike isn't that hard when you see your opponent go offstage for it and you have shiek's options at your disposal. Bring CS, you'll need the extra kill option and all the chances you get to hit shiek.

I'd avoid any other customs... Heavy DB needs testing, the windbox stab sucks, dash assault is a trap (seems good until you realize it's unsafe, does minimal damage, doesn't kill etc.) Don't get me started on how BS it is to have something called "easy" moves that do less everything and add MORE lag. **** the guy who thought marth/lucina needed those.


Without customs it's a really bad MU if we are using the character's full potential. definitely a -3. This IS Marth's worst MU.
With is still bad, but now you have options you didn't before and that helps a ton. -1 or -2 here. I'm undecided because I haven't seen the MU enough. You'd think there would be more shiek mains... (I'll make an educated guess and say it's most likely -2, shiek is that good.) I'm laughing at the other ratings I've seen. This is a bad one and you guys are sugar coating a bit.

Oh this is a Luci discussion as well? I think she does slightly better than Marth actually. Because Marth wants to hit perfectly as much as possible, it can be easy for shiek to avoid our zone. Also it does require extra frames to get in the correct position to hit a tipper a lot of times. Luci doesn't have this problem (she has problems, but I don't think they are your biggest worries here). Because Luci is a threat up close, shiek has to be extra respectful in her own range. I think that is pretty useful in the MU. Still a -3 without customs, but with them Luci is closer to a -1 where Marth is at a dubious -1 or -2. One of the ONLY MUs where Lucina seems like a better option than Marth. The other one I know for sure is Shulk, but only because I have quite a bit of testing there, I'm not as sure about this one, but it does feel better...

Mostly, know that if you DO go into this MU with Marth, you are at the disadvantage the entire match. This is one of the MUs that made me pick up other characters. It's bad.

Shiek sadly does this to a lot of characters. Who can actually go even with Shiek?

 

[Admiral_Dante]

You think luigi and pikachu are bad? Weird... C falcon is worse than them. We get true comboed into a knee now.


Anywho, as far as the MU goes we are losing because Marth has so much lag everywhere and shiek is literally the epitome of a good perfect punish character. Anything we do BETTER hit or else. We get comboed, we get out ranged, hell we can't even space properly due to shiek's ease of getting in our faces. Without customs is a nightmare as you don't have any sort of quasi approach options that shiek can't deal with. Even with customs on you only get two decent choices in crescent slash and iai counter.

I'd say in this mu iai counter might be less useful due to it's movement, shiek can hit it, be safe from the counter, and then punish your lag on some moves, if the shiek is aware of this you may as well have brought easy counter (lol) because your counter is practically useless for anything unless shiek gets combo greedy. (and since we are talking about played to the best of their abilities here...) So you have to know what moves can actually be countered. That said, shiek's trouble killing makes getting early offstage iai counter KOs more viable. This is an optional custom and I'm not really sure if it changes the score or not. The thing that can be said is this one can kill due to it's angle, and the default will have trouble because shiek doesn't hit hard anyways.

Crescent Slash helps with it's ability to combo and people are saying there is a truedeath combo with it on shiek? The only reason I say it's better is that it forces shiek to respect you while you are in range of her needles. You might think it's better to have dolphin slash to edgegaurd deeper, but in this MU shiek will rarely be low from anything you hit her with so gimping horizontally is a better option. The only thing that I like about the default is going low for a stage spike, but you can still do that (albeit at more precise timing, and less often) with CS. Then again, best to the character's potential here so teching a stagespike isn't that hard when you see your opponent go offstage for it and you have shiek's options at your disposal. Bring CS, you'll need the extra kill option and all the chances you get to hit shiek.

I'd avoid any other customs... Heavy DB needs testing, the windbox stab sucks, dash assault is a trap (seems good until you realize it's unsafe, does minimal damage, doesn't kill etc.) Don't get me started on how BS it is to have something called "easy" moves that do less everything and add MORE lag. **** the guy who thought marth/lucina needed those.


Without customs it's a really bad MU if we are using the character's full potential. definitely a -3. This IS Marth's worst MU.
With is still bad, but now you have options you didn't before and that helps a ton. -1 or -2 here. I'm undecided because I haven't seen the MU enough. You'd think there would be more shiek mains... (I'll make an educated guess and say it's most likely -2, shiek is that good.) I'm laughing at the other ratings I've seen. This is a bad one and you guys are sugar coating a bit.

Oh this is a Luci discussion as well? I think she does slightly better than Marth actually. Because Marth wants to hit perfectly as much as possible, it can be easy for shiek to avoid our zone. Also it does require extra frames to get in the correct position to hit a tipper a lot of times. Luci doesn't have this problem (she has problems, but I don't think they are your biggest worries here). Because Luci is a threat up close, shiek has to be extra respectful in her own range. I think that is pretty useful in the MU. Still a -3 without customs, but with them Luci is closer to a -1 where Marth is at a dubious -1 or -2. One of the ONLY MUs where Lucina seems like a better option than Marth. The other one I know for sure is Shulk, but only because I have quite a bit of testing there, I'm not as sure about this one, but it does feel better...

Mostly, know that if you DO go into this MU with Marth, you are at the disadvantage the entire match. This is one of the MUs that made me pick up other characters. It's bad.

Yeah, this matchup is not fun. Honestly playing this matchup feels like you have to be in the sheik's head to get hits, You have to swing at where they will be, and not where the sheik is... Like a Jedi or something... <_<

I've had limited success with getting to high percents and hoping to kill sheik with rage... I mean, it's not like you'll stay at low percents long anyway... It seems I mostly die to uairs before I can get to 150%+, especially after I got decent at shielding/dodging/stuffing yolo BFs on reaction. Otherwise, I just dtilt and space as safely as I can to slowly get their perecent up and go for a lot of DS OOS punishes if they're SH happy. Then i look for a DB up kill on a roll punish, or an upthrow kill on a shield read/punish. Hopefully, you'll have a little bit of a pattern download by then to set up situation that will lead to the kill... Basically, I play this matchup like a patient, crafty old man, with young blood reactions.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Iai counter stuffs Bf... Also if you can grab shiek in a way that her feet are in the air you can get a garunteed grab release into crescent.

 

[Freelance Spy]

First off @ Locuan
Dashing Assualt gives us a safe approach and a fast punish tool.

DA is not safe. Especially against shiek. It's lag and startup are easily punished with needles or worse. (I would love to show video proving this, but I can't right now ...)

Iai counter works on some things and fails on anything below us. I'd definitely bring it to dissuade edgegaurds.

Crescent slash makes our recovery easy to gimp. Shiek is good at gimping. I like kill confirms on edge but to be perfectly honest, shiek will never get herself in that position. If she was a short character air releases would be much easier to pull off, but she keeps her feet on the ground during a grab so it's not any better than the situational jab lock we used to have.

Also I have changed my mind about Luci doing better than Marth in this matchup. Due to recent discovery of key moves being one frame longer than being safe on shield, including her new jab, I can't see any real advantage luci might have had anymore. Sure marth will do less damage overall, but one lucky tipper will make up for that. Especially if you have a perfectly safe mixup setup move to get it off with (Cough jab). Like I just said, Luci's jab isn't safe as Marth's so even the buffs she got can't really help.

Customs change nothing in this MU and it's a bit worse than -1... Like, pick up a secondary worse.

 

[Macchiato]

DA is not safe. Especially against shiek. It's lag and startup are easily punished with needles or worse. (I would love to show video proving this, but I can't right now ...)

Iai counter works on some things and fails on anything below us. I'd definitely bring it to dissuade edgegaurds.

Crescent slash makes our recovery easy to gimp. Shiek is good at gimping. I like kill confirms on edge but to be perfectly honest, shiek will never get herself in that position. If she was a short character air releases would be much easier to pull off, but she keeps her feet on the ground during a grab so it's not any better than the situational jab lock we used to have.

Also I have changed my mind about Luci doing better than Marth in this matchup. Due to recent discovery of key moves being one frame longer than being safe on shield, including her new jab, I can't see any real advantage luci might have had anymore. Sure marth will do less damage overall, but one lucky tipper will make up for that. Especially if you have a perfectly safe mixup setup move to get it off with (Cough jab). Like I just said, Luci's jab isn't safe as Marth's so even the buffs she got can't really help.

Customs change nothing in this MU and it's a bit worse than -1... Like, pick up a secondary worse.

fthrow --> Crescent Slash... You don't need a grab release. Yes, but what if you don't get the kill with Marth? You'll probably be killing at 100% while you'll kill Sheik at 80% with Lucina. IMO there's no different in MU score between both characters.

 

[Akira213]

-3
Marth simply has no reliable way to approach Sheik. Winning this MU requires either a Sheik player making significant mistakes or landing a hard read f-smash/d-air/shield breaker. Between needles and the safety of Sheik's aerials there is no reason a Sheik should be losing barring bad play on the part of the individual.

I don't think any of Marth's customs are relevant, so I will say -3 for that MU as well.

Edit: Is spreading out MU discussion once per week really a good idea? We're talking a minimum of a year here.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Good point, even though I personally only want to talk about 20 or so of the characters.

 

[Freelance Spy]

fthrow --> Crescent Slash... You don't need a grab release. Yes, but what if you don't get the kill with Marth? You'll probably be killing at 100% while you'll kill Sheik at 80% with Lucina. IMO there's no different in MU score between both characters.

Lol fthrow to crescent slash can't kill because you can escape with pretty much any DI at mid to high percentage. Or airdode, or jump...

Lucina does not kill earlier than Marth! Are you insane? As hard as it is to space properly in the MU, tipper anything kills early.

The real reason Luci does abysmally worse in this MU is because she gets punished more often than Marth. Her frame data is objectively worse than Marth when it comes to hitting shields. I have already said this. If Marth is -2 then Lucina is -3 due to SHIEK doing more damage and getting more follow ups because of shield hitlag. Shiek has plenty of kill setups out of grabs. Lucina gets grabbed more often than Marth. Hitting someone with your hilt for more damage? Well you're in grab range. Congratulations, your "advantage" has gotten you in a bad position.

Lucina is definitely worse. Customs only help make shiek respect you offstage if you aren't in a combo.

MU is -2 Marth, -3 Lucina. Marth survives longer and isn't -3 due to lucky or situational early kills that can turn the match around. Plus he can safely deal shield damage and hopefully get a shiek break.

With customs on I would give Marth -1 if Shiek does not use her customs. Luci -2 if the same thing happens. But Shiek's customs are as much of an advantage as ours do.

If M2K and zero decided to play these characters to demonstrate the MU, whichever one who uses Shiek would win. Huge disadvantage for Marth, practically unwinnable to Lucina.

 

[CommanderRin]

Quick question, how much does our new jab help us in this match-up? The distance jab-1 sends opponents is pretty much perfect for us right? And I assume Jab can safely space in the match-up... Admittedly I only have experience with a bunch of Fox and Ness

 

[Freelance Spy]

Quick question, how much does our new jab help us in this match-up? The distance jab-1 sends opponents is pretty much perfect for us right? And I assume Jab can safely space in the match-up... Admittedly I only have experience with a bunch of Fox and Ness

Helps all our MUs, but the main problem with this one is not the reliability of a move or damage. It's the fact shiek controls the map so easy. Shiek can do anything she wants and if we want to do something, odds are we'll get punished for it.

 

[H-O-G]

I dnt understand why ppl believe marth iz useless or cant do anything without a tipper; that belief iz just blasphemy. I play my marth from the inside out. Non tippers actually put u in favorable positions for tips or lead into tips. Yes he relies heavily on spacing but that's only if ur trying 2 maximize on damage. Rely 2 much on spacing and u jus end up being defensive and campy. I play aggro so i use my non tippers 2 the fullest.

In this match up i rely on up throw for kills, i jus try 2 damage and keep her off me as much as possible. That fact iz spacing iz difficult 2 do against the top tier class, so I have forsaken it a long time ago and it has been rather successful.

-2 marth and Lucy
shiek iz jus so solid

 

[A_Kae]

I dnt understand why ppl believe marth iz useless or cant do anything without a tipper; that belief iz just blasphemy. I play my marth from the inside out. Non tippers actually put u in favorable positions for tips or lead into tips. Yes he relies heavily on spacing but that's only if ur trying 2 maximize on damage. Rely 2 much on spacing and u jus end up being defensive and campy. I play aggro so i use my non tippers 2 the fullest.

In this match up i rely on up throw for kills, i jus try 2 damage and keep her off me as much as possible. That fact iz spacing iz difficult 2 do against the top tier class, so I have forsaken it a long time ago and it has been rather successful.

-2 marth and Lucy
shiek iz jus so solid

While Marth isn't useless without tippers, he also shouldn't be played focusing on not tipping. While it is true that not-tipped attacks can lead to followups (and that's 'followups' not 'combos') at low-mid percents, you shouldn't be only going for non-tipped attacks. And when you do, you should still be spacing as far away as you can from the target for safety reasons.

Spacing, I agree, can be very hard against the top tiers because of their mobility, but you definitely shouldn't stop spacing. It's always important for every character.

Also, Marth and Lucina are defensive characters.

 

[H-O-G]

While Marth isn't useless without tippers, he also shouldn't be played focusing on not tipping. While it is true that not-tipped attacks can lead to followups (and that's 'followups' not 'combos') at low-mid percents, you shouldn't be only going for non-tipped attacks. And when you do, you should still be spacing as far away as you can from the target for safety reasons.

Spacing, I agree, can be very hard against the top tiers because of their mobility, but you definitely shouldn't stop spacing. It's always important for every character.

Also, Marth and Lucina are defensive characters.

I'm not saying that I dnt space but I try not to rely heavily on it especially wen it iz not needed or useless in certain matchups. And them being defensive iz an opinion. U play them 2 wat Eva style fits u. But I also understand were ur coming frm.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I'm not saying that I dnt space but I try not to rely heavily on it especially wen it iz not needed or useless in certain matchups. And them being defensive iz an opinion. U play them 2 wat Eva style fits u. But I also understand were ur coming frm.

I'd argue that playing aggro Marth takes more spacing skill than defensive Marth. His frame data in this version is pretty bad compared to his former incarnations, so it's vital to space and time moves correctly to not be punished. And if you're going in more and more you can't just throw out moves whenever and wherever, that's just more opportunities to be punished. Sure you can use a lot of empty jump grabs, but your opponent will eventually catch on to that (if they're any good) and force you to find other ways to catch them...

I'm sure you loved the nair buff though, i sure did.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm not sure, I'll test this out myself soon. I'm pretty sure jabs beat sheik's approach when time correctly, and

Jab is great at stopping approaches, and that includes sheik. The problem is that sheik doesn't have to approach, and marth does.

 

[Solutionme]

It is a losing MU, we all know this, but lets keep in mind that one of our tools got an immensely stupid upgrade and u-tilt is a lot safer to throw out.

So to put it bluntly, if Sheik moves by the air, don't sit in your shield, you either want to jab or u-tilt, which at that point leaves three options to Sheik, 1 of which is bad along with it being 2 if it is a jab. That would be the air dodge btw.
1. Air dodge
2. Jump and Down air(less common)
3. Jump(Most common)
4. Up B for mix-ups(good but imo not commonly used due to the endlag and startup.)
5. Fair(which if she is too close, just roll away, but considering the better range and how safe it is to just jab, f-tilt, and u-tilt, should not be too much of an issue)

So where does that leave us? Sheik combos us a lot better and it is hard to land a kill on her. She has to bait us to move to her via her needles and force you to get conditioned in her combos to keep racking up the damage. However due to the increased difficulty she has in approaching us if we don't sit on shield, she has to run along the ground. So now we basically go against a character who does the Captain Falcon tactic, except she can force us to come with her needles. She can't really kill with her needles unless we are offstage, and approaching with bouncing fish can leave her open.

So if she has to approach us on the ground to get the kill, that means we can start to condition her with jab, d-tilt, and f-tilt. Of course this is where she can start jumping because we leave ourselves open. Assuming the Sheik starts to approach more with her shield, this becomes the perfect opportunity to get a shield broken. Alternatively, at higher percents such as 110% for her, d-tilt starts to knock her down at an angle that is hard to tech. You can follow it up with an up smash and get the free kill,which looking at the percentage is not too bad. So now we have our main way of trying to get a good kill, along with the optional shield break. Do we have any other reliable ways of killing her?

Sadly, no other way is reliable other than using jab for a mindgame, but she is quick so it is hard from my experience. I do want to keep this in mind though, her fairs can't combo into each other at mid percents or with good DI, so the opportunity to throw out a move is there, counter is good just don't use it too much, up-air is good for keeping her above you which is what you want, and fair pushes her away.

This is what I have to say so far. It is not as hard as we think it is, it's just that she forces us to move in if we want to hurt her, which is the opposite of what we want, but we do have ways of dealing with her. Just keep in mind to keep her above you and if she goes on the ground, treat her like Captain Falcon who has a fox blaster. Also try to chase her when she is in the air since has bad options to land with.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Jab is great at stopping approaches, and that includes sheik. The problem is that sheik doesn't have to approach, and marth does.

Yeah, I never meant to post that, somehow it stayed leftover on my computer. Edited out. But since it was there, the rest of the post was "and maybe I can see how practical it is in a real match. Although, a good sheik would have marth do the approaching, so I'm not sure how useful it would be if it works anyway..."

So yeah, decided to not even bother posting it in the end.

 

[Solutionme]

Yeah, that's why i never meant to post that, somehow it stayed leftover on my computer. But, the rest of the post was "and maybe I can see how practical it is in a real match. Although, a good sheik would have marth do the approaching, so I'm not sure how useful it would be if it works anyway..."

Just remember that Sheik can't kill with her needles, unless it is customs. So if we camp her out on a stage like Battlefield or Smashville, the MU is a little easier, perhaps maybe almost even? The platforms probably help her extend combos even more.

 

[A_Kae]

Just remember that Sheik can't kill with her needles, unless it is customs. So if we camp her out on a stage like Battlefield or Smashville, the MU is a little easier, perhaps maybe almost even? The platforms probably help her extend combos even more.

How can sheik kill with custom needles? I'm not very familiar with sheik's customs, but I can't imagine that she would get a killing projectile.

 

[Solutionme]

How can sheik kill with custom needles? I'm not very familiar with sheik's customs, but I can't imagine that she would get a killing projectile.

Well the one needle I know that actually kills doesn't kill in the conventional way, it just breaks shields. Which means that she punishes you for doing what most people are forced to do to not be be stuck in her combo. Forgot what her third one is, probably another good one too.

 

[A_Kae]

Well the one needle I know that actually kills doesn't kill in the conventional way, it just breaks shields. Which means that she punishes you for doing what most people are forced to do to not be be stuck in her combo. Forgot what her third one is, probably another good one too.

Does it break a full shield with a full charge?

I checked the other custom, and it's a single paralyzing needle, sort of like ZSS's neutral special.

Either one of those could potentially lead to a kill, but the range loss on the shield breaker, and the lag on the paralyzer makes me think that default needles are best. With that said, I don't use sheik, so I don't know.

Edit: Shield Breaker needles don't break a full shield, but they leave it severely depleted. They do almost as much damage as marth's uncharged shield breaker. And these are a projectile. And take about half as long to charge as default.

Changing my previous statement, shield breaking needles are best needles. Platforms are absolutely vital against these.

 

[Freelance Spy]

It is a losing MU, we all know this, but lets keep in mind that one of our tools got an immensely stupid upgrade and u-tilt is a lot safer to throw out.

So to put it bluntly, if Sheik moves by the air, don't sit in your shield, you either want to jab or u-tilt, which at that point leaves three options to Sheik, 1 of which is bad along with it being 2 if it is a jab. That would be the air dodge btw.
1. Air dodge
2. Jump and Down air(less common)
3. Jump(Most common)
4. Up B for mix-ups(good but imo not commonly used due to the endlag and startup.)
5. Fair(which if she is too close, just roll away, but considering the better range and how safe it is to just jab, f-tilt, and u-tilt, should not be too much of an issue)

So where does that leave us? Sheik combos us a lot better and it is hard to land a kill on her. She has to bait us to move to her via her needles and force you to get conditioned in her combos to keep racking up the damage. However due to the increased difficulty she has in approaching us if we don't sit on shield, she has to run along the ground. So now we basically go against a character who does the Captain Falcon tactic, except she can force us to come with her needles. She can't really kill with her needles unless we are offstage, and approaching with bouncing fish can leave her open.

So if she has to approach us on the ground to get the kill, that means we can start to condition her with jab, d-tilt, and f-tilt. Of course this is where she can start jumping because we leave ourselves open. Assuming the Sheik starts to approach more with her shield, this becomes the perfect opportunity to get a shield broken. Alternatively, at higher percents such as 110% for her, d-tilt starts to knock her down at an angle that is hard to tech. You can follow it up with an up smash and get the free kill,which looking at the percentage is too bad. So now we have our main way of trying to get a good kill, along with the optional shield break. Do we have any other reliable ways of killing her?

Sadly, no other way is reliable other than using jab for a mindgame, but she is quick so it is hard from my experience. I do want to keep this in mind though, her fairs can't combo into each other at mid percents or with good DI, so the opportunity to throw out a move is there, counter is good just don't use it too much, up-air is good for keeping her above you which is what you want, and fair pushes her away.

This is what I have to say so far. It is not as hard as we think it is, it's just that she forces us to move in if we want to hurt her, which is the opposite of what we want, but we do have ways of dealing with her. Just keep in mind to keep her above you and if she goes on the ground, treat her like Captain Falcon who has a fox blaster. Also try to chase her when she is in the air since has bad options to land with.

I really appreciate this post, it is very well thought out.

Definitely taking Shiek to anti needle stages helps tremendously. I'd say lylatt is our best bet due to tilting and platforms. I'd take it to halberd if I wasn't so scared of Shiek's upwards kill options.

We should probably discuss stages for this MU. I'll take any slight advantage I can get, Marth, sadly, is my best character vs Shiek.

Unless I go fox, which for me is at least 3 SDs a match.

 

[CommanderRin]

do we avoid needles while crouching?

 

[Solutionme]

do we avoid needles while crouching?

Sadly no. Most crouches in the game are garbage anyways.
In the background I can hear all the people who want crouch cancels back.
Also to sum up how I feel the MU goes, same as as before, just that our prominent anti-air moves are safer, making it a easier MU.

 

[CommanderRin]

Sadly no. Most crouches in the game are garbage anyways.
In the background I can hear all the people who want crouch cancels back.
Also to sum up how I feel the MU goes, same as as before, just that our prominent anti-air moves are safer, making it a easier MU.

Damn, I was going to start preaching the crouch meta if our crouch did avoid needles for us.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Damn, I was going to start preaching the crouch meta if our crouch did avoid needles for us.

They do on certain stages at certain times. Lylatt, kongo, halbard, castle siege, pokemon stadium 2, delfino, and skyloft all have parts of the stage you can crouch under needles on. At least one theoretically. I'm going to test out the Shorter walls/slopes to make sure.

I seriously never considered stages in any of my MU analyses, if Shiek doesn't ban a LOT then we gave a bit of extra safety possibly.

I'd ban SV, TnC, FD, BF,DH, and any other normal stage I could.

 

[CommanderRin]

They do on certain stages at certain times. Lylatt, kongo, halbard, castle siege, pokemon stadium 2, delfino, and skyloft all have parts of the stage you can crouch under needles on. At least one theoretically. I'm going to test out the Shorter walls/slopes to make sure.

I seriously never considered stages in any of my MU analyses, if Shiek doesn't ban a LOT then we gave a bit of extra safety possibly.

I'd ban SV, TnC, FD, BF,DH, and any other normal stage I could.

I agree with SV and DH, but if our main strategy is to carefully rack up Shiek's percent, I could see low ceiling stages helping us in regard to our Up-throw.

I don't really think Shiek's U-air is too scary and her Up-smash is only a serious threat if we let her sweet spot it.

the question is which stages will be neutral enough for us, which probably isn't that many.

Keep in mind that I'm just theorizing and if there are any Shiek facts you could enlighten me on I'd appreciate it.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I agree with SV and DH, but if our main strategy is to carefully rack up Shiek's percent, I could see low ceiling stages helping us in regard to our Up-throw.

I don't really think Shiek's U-air is too scary and her Up-smash is only a serious threat if we let her sweet spot it.

the question is which stages will be neutral enough for us, which probably isn't that many.

Keep in mind that I'm just theorizing and if there are any Shiek facts you could enlighten me on I'd appreciate it.

Shiek fact number one: those options you just blew off will kill you a lot easier than you think. Sweet spot usmash for Shiek mains isn't too hard to get. And the up air is worse. It kills later than most, but if you are fighting Shiek she will get you to that percentage faster than we get her to our normal kill times.

Add to the fact shiek can easily evade our kill options (which is a pro for Lucina actually) by staying out of tipper range and there is little we can do except wait for Shiek to get greedy and hope we react perfectly. It's a common mistake to think Shiek has trouble getting kills. Non professional Shiek's struggle to get kills, pros don't.

When you fight a real Shiek then try telling me you aren't scared of upair.

 

[CommanderRin]

Shiek fact number one: those options you just blew off will kill you a lot easier than you think. Sweet spot usmash for Shiek mains isn't too hard to get. And the up air is worse. It kills later than most, but if you are fighting Shiek she will get you to that percentage faster than we get her to our normal kill times.

Add to the fact shiek can easily evade our kill options (which is a pro for Lucina actually) by staying out of tipper range and there is little we can do except wait for Shiek to get greedy and hope we react perfectly. It's a common mistake to think Shiek has trouble getting kills. Non professional Shiek's struggle to get kills, pros don't.

When you fight a real Shiek then try telling me you aren't scared of upair.

I see, well I hope I can attend another tournament sometime soon and find a Shiek in action. I've seen Shiek play before (watch lotsa ZeRo) but I've yet to personally fight a good one.

 

[Solutionme]

Zero is only one Sheik, and tbh he mostly only does the gimps and carrying fairs off the stage, I've gone against FG Sheiks who frame trap you at low percents and combo all the way up to 60% on a few right reads. The only thing stopping Sheik form being another meta knight is the fact that she takes much longer to kill, which keep in mind remember her bair and uair throughout all the patches got nerfed. Had she not had her down b changed to a convenient recovery and killmove, she wouldn't be too overpowered. Not sound like i'm bashing Zero anyways, but his real main is diddy kong and he got nerfed to hell. Btw keep in mind she can still plank pretty easily despite the ledge mechanic changes due to her hitbox at the end of her up special, which was a dumb idea to even introduce honestly. The reason behind why she planks so well comes from her ability to wall cling and jump, the needles, bouncing fish, and what i just mentioned earlier, the hitbox at the end of her recovery. Besides approaching sheik off the stage is a dumb idea, good invincibility on her recovery and she will gimp you pretty quick. Even as Marth it is a bit risky especially since counter is ineffective against Sheik.