The end of Casual vs. Competitive Debates (Request Sticky)

[Papapaint]

These topics are getting out of hand. As a competitive smasher who plays casually just as much, I feel as though I'm constantly under fire from both sides.

In one of the many debate threads, Lauf linked this article: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Some summaries:

"Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games...those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it."

"The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win...The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing."

"The scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub...the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary."

"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun"...the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it."

"If an expert does anything he can to win, then does he exploit bugs in the game? The answer is a resounding yes...but not all bugs. There is a large class of bugs in video games that players don't even view as bugs... Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the one player side of the game."

"I've been talking down to the scrub a lot in this article. I'd like to say for the record that I'm not calling the scrub stupid. I'm not saying he can never improve. I am saying that he's naive and that he'll be trapped in scrubdom, whether he realizes it or not, as long as he chooses to live in the mental construct of rules he himself constructed. Is it harsh to call scrubs naive?...I really have no trouble saying that since we're talking about esoteric, experience-driven knowledge here. I also know that 99.9% of the world (including me) doesn't know how the citric acid cycle and cellular respiration create 38 ATP molecules per cycle. It's an esoteric thing of which I am unaware, just as many are unaware of competitive games."

 

[Sideem Slingh]

The masses will not listen to just one person. How many threads have I seen like this? Inappropriate title

 

[OrlanduEX]

This thread SO deserves a sticky. But it probably wont get one, and the pointless casual vs competitive debates will continue.

The question that really needs to be asked here is why do casuals care so much that competitive players play the way they do?

 

[Papapaint]

The masses will not listen to just one person. How many threads have I seen like this? Inappropriate title

Most of the threads revolve around arguing whether or not the techniques are glitches. The point of this thread remains the same regardless.

 

[Sideem Slingh]

I'm not worried about what they're arguing about as much as that they will not stop. And maybe it's best that they should keep arguing; it creates tension, and tension is the ideal condition for change. The casuals are angry at the pros for being too serious, and the pros are angry at the casuals for being too stubborn (or so it seems to me). Opinions that basic take a lot more than a forum to change.

Besides, this game is here so everyone can play their way. If two people have conflicting views of how it's to be played, it's only natural, and the two will just go back to their groups and think that they're right.

One more thing, and it's a quote:

The sad irony is that those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all.

If 'scrubs', as demeaning as it sounds, read this and don't believe him, then that'll only increase the tension between pros and casuals.

 

[Nuvia]

The tension has already gotten way out of hand. The only thing that can quell this is decisive action. (i.e. locking threads that provoke either side)

 

[Zek]

This article is incredibly old, you're nuts if you think this is going to be the end of anything. It's also incredibly biased. Different people play games for different reasons. They shouldn't attack eachother over it, which is exactly what this guy does to "scrubs."

 

[NES n00b]

This article is incredibly old, you're nuts if you think this is going to be the end of anything. It's also incredibly biased. Different people play games for different reasons. They shouldn't attack eachother over it, which is exactly what this guy does to "scrubs."

Does he really? 1. He says a majority are scrubs. 2. The biggest reason for their scrubbiness is the lack of understanding of esoteric knowledge. 3. He tells you how to get better at tourney play so that maybe you can win money or whatever, it has nothing to do with what you do at home.

 

[NES n00b]

I will now use this accidental double post to do something productive.

To say how awesome I am, aren't I awesome? I thought so.

 

[Phyvo]

I'm not worried about what they're arguing about as much as that they will not stop. And maybe it's best that they should keep arguing; it creates tension, and tension is the ideal condition for change. The casuals are angry at the pros for being too serious, and the pros are angry at the casuals for being too stubborn (or so it seems to me). Opinions that basic take a lot more than a forum to change.

I think most pros have accepted by now that the casuals won't listen to them. If you notice most of the most respected pros on this board, the posters with various colored names, post MORE in other topics. They've already been dealing with this since melee. By now they've realized they can't convince every casual that pros aren't cheating. So they're just tired and want to be left alone to play the game for what they deem is fun.

It's the newer pro-sympathetic posters (who may or may not be pros themselves) who argue and get frustrated with the casuals.

This isn't going to change until things settle down after Brawl comes out, at least. There are a million casuals, but only a few pros, and it's quite possible that after Brawl comes out the problem will only become worse as a new wave of naive casuals and naive pro-sympathizers pour in to strangle each other's throats.

Besides, this game is here so everyone can play their way. If two people have conflicting views of how it's to be played, it's only natural, and the two will just go back to their groups and think that they're right.

True, that's why the OLDER posters on this board, the respected members, stay out of the argument entirely. Because you know what two people arguing and not understanding each other is? A waste of time. And when that waste of time ends up being a waste of space and affects everyone else, the whole board suffers.

 

[Mailman]

Besides, this game is here so everyone can play their way. If two people have conflicting views of how it's to be played, it's only natural, and the two will just go back to their groups and think that they're right.

True, that's why the OLDER posters on this board, the respected members, stay out of the argument entirely. Because you know what two people arguing and not understanding each other is? A waste of time. And when that waste of time ends up being a waste of space and affects everyone else, the whole board suffers.

I definately agree, I don't mind that people have their own way to play, my problem is something that will probably never be resolved: Agreement and acceptance of how diffrently people play this game. Also, I think this kind of discussion isn't only limited to Super Smash Bros.

Also, I read the original article, and it seems biased against "scrubs." I'm not bad at Smash Bros. and I play for fun sometimes, too. My question for the original article is this: Does doing that make me a "scrub" too?

 

[M.K]

You're post failed when it mentioned us as "scrubs"

I, being the more competitive casual player, take great offensive to that blow.

 

[Megavitamins]

How many more topics are there gonna be like this? The world may never know.

 

[Mailman]

I used "scrubs" because the guy who posted the article said "scrubs." I only used it for that reason, that, and I couldn't think of another word. I hate words like n00b, scrub, newbie, etc.

I'm sorry if I hurt you.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, I read the original article, and it seems biased against "scrubs." I'm not bad at Smash Bros. and I play for fun sometimes, too. My question for the original article is this: Does doing that make me a "scrub" too?

That doesn't make you a scrub.

However, I cannot say the same for someone who thinks Brawl won't be competitive because they can't cancel their aerials.

 

[sn][p3r]

I think what most people forget is, its a game. I don't care for casual players and I don't care for pros, I care for players. If you take the time to label yourself one of the above and take sides (in a game that doesn't support online play :O) then you deserve to fail. No one cares how "pro" you are or how good you would be if those "pros" stopped using the "glitches." I for one don't care, and I doubt the next person above me, or does the person above him. Just play the god**** game and save this site some bandwidth.

 

[Takeshi245]

This won't be the end. They'll keep coming and coming. It's become the norm anyways.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Why does this thread deserve to be stickied and not the over 9000 other threads before it.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Isn't a scrub just someone who is at a lower skill level and tries to play at higher level?

 

[OrlanduEX]

You're post failed when it mentioned us as "scrubs"

I, being the more competitive casual player, take great offensive to that blow.

Way to disregard the meaning behind the argument.
He accurately defines the term and goes on to say that the majority of players are scrubs. So being a scrub is not a rare thing. It's actually the norm.

And what is a competitive casual player?
If you play by some honor code that dictates which aspects of the game you can or can't use and restrict your own ability to improve, then you are simply another scrub.
Do you fall under that definition?

 

[Mailman]

That doesn't make you a scrub.

However, I cannot say the same for someone who thinks Brawl won't be competitive because they can't cancel their aerials.

Is that why people are saying it won't be competitve? Wow, a little much, don't you think?

 

[Deleted member]

Is that why people are saying it won't be competitve? Wow, a little much, don't you think?

Well, yeah. That's why this argument is so ridiculous.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Isn't a scrub just someone who is at a lower skill level and tries to play at higher level?

The term describes mentally immature people. Players with less skill can also not be scrubs and players at higher skill levels can be scrubs, but those usually don't happen. Freeing your mind from a scrub mentality will make you better.

 

[Mailman]

Well, yeah. That's why this argument is so ridiculous.

I think I get it now. The reason these arguments begin is because there's someone who believes to an extreme amount about one side or the other, writes their thoughts, and it blows up into these long-winded debates. The question is how to solve it...

 

[Deleted member]

I think I get it now. The reason these arguments begin is because there's someone who believes to an extreme amount about one side or the other, writes their thoughts, and it blows up into these long-winded debates. The question is how to solve it...

There's no real way to solve it, it's more about simply making certain people realize that:

a) Brawl is not Melee

b) It's been out for only two weeks

c) There have been a substantial amount of techniques discovered in that time for people who wish to try and find competitive usage

d) Brawl is not Melee

e) Even if they don't find more advanced techniques, it shouldn't matter at all, for playing Brawl competitively will be different than playing Melee competitively, because:

f) Brawl is not Melee

 

[DeuceBlade]

There's no real way to solve it, it's more about simply making certain people realize that:

a) Brawl is not Melee

b) It's been out for only two weeks

c) There have been a substantial amount of techniques discovered in that time for people who wish to try and find competitive usage

d) Brawl is not Melee

e) Even if they don't find more advanced techniques, it shouldn't matter at all, for playing Brawl competitively will be different than playing Melee competitively, because:

f) Brawl is not Melee

Odds are people still won't realize Brawl is not melee lol

 

[Kio Iranez]

e) Even if they don't find more advanced techniques, it shouldn't matter at all, for playing Brawl competitively will be different than playing Melee competitively, because:

f) Brawl is not Melee

Very true. When I played Brawl last week, I had to change my playstyle to actually win. Then, when I played Melee again, I had to do the same. Playing Brawl made me worse at Melee. Neither of them, I think, is worse. They are just different. =)

 

[Mailman]

There's no real way to solve it, it's more about simply making certain people realize that:

a) Brawl is not Melee

b) It's been out for only two weeks

c) There have been a substantial amount of techniques discovered in that time for people who wish to try and find competitive usage

d) Brawl is not Melee

e) Even if they don't find more advanced techniques, it shouldn't matter at all, for playing Brawl competitively will be different than playing Melee competitively, because:

f) Brawl is not Melee

Yes, and I think this is a good way to end it. People just sometimes don't see this, such is life.

 

[Deleted member]

Odds are people still won't realize Brawl is not melee lol

Then take pride in knowing you aren't an idiot

 

[RedMage8BT]

The term describes mentally immature people. Players with less skill can also not be scrubs and players at higher skill levels can be scrubs, but those usually don't happen. Freeing your mind from a scrub mentality will make you better.

I thought that was a n00b...

 

[zeldamaster2006]

if you are good at casual, you can be good at competitive now that glitches such as wavedashing and l-cancelling have been removed.

 

[Kio Iranez]

I thought that was a n00b...

I guess they can be synonymous.

 

[Losnar]

I'm a semi-competitive gamer, but I prefer honor over victory. I try not to edge hog people and I destroy them with my fists instead. Winning isn't everything, especially if there's no prize. Tournaments are a different story.

 

[ShortAssassin]

if you are good at casual, you can be good at competitive now that glitches such as wavedashing and l-cancelling have been removed.

False. If you think wavedashing and l-canceling are the only things that set casual players apart from competitive players you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Spellman]

The article is true, but this doesn't end or prove anything other then there are people who like to play the game a certain way, and other people who like to play it another way. He's right, even though it seems harsh to call people "scrubs". Seriously, it sounds like you're calling someone dirty or something.

Truth is, a lot people don't like to be labeled because it automatically pulls them into any debate by association. If someone said that: "All uncompetitive players are unskilled.", and I don't go to tournaments, then I and anyone else will probably be offended and have to defend themselves and the rest of their group.

People take offense on both sides when there is criticism about each other, but with self control, the presence of the argument will be minimal. This goes for every tired and stale debate. Turning the other cheek when someone makes a dumb comment that belittles your play style is best ignored, the thread will die, and everybody wins.

Except the people who want to fight it out. In which case, type your heart out.

 

[Deleted member]

if you are good at casual, you can be good at competitive now that glitches such as wavedashing and l-cancelling have been removed.

The better player will still always win. Remember, wavedashing and l-canceling were a thing of Melee. Brawl seems to be a lot more about being smarter, taking time to think, better spacing, etc.

It's like a game of chess...chess in itself might not take technical skill to play (all you do is lift pieces), but you gotta be pretty **** smart with it to play it competitively.

 

[Mailman]

I thought that was a n00b...

Either name, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if you're having fun. Playstyles won't make you a n00b, that's all that matters.

 

[Mailman]

The better player will still always win. Remember, wavedashing and l-canceling were a thing of Melee. Brawl seems to be a lot more about being smarter, taking time to think, better spacing, etc.

It's like a game of chess...chess in itself might not take technical skill to play (all you do is lift pieces), but you gotta be pretty **** smart with it to play it competitively.

Taking skill to a diffent level.

 

[SinisterLizard]

I just have one question: WHO CARES??

Just play how you want to play. Get over it.

 

[Takeshi245]

if you are good at casual, you can be good at competitive now that glitches such as wavedashing and l-cancelling have been removed.

Not exactly. Most casuals aren't actually good at Melee, so they won't be as good as the people that have the competitive mindset, the experience, and the skill that came with it once Brawl comes out. Oh, and saying wavedashing and l-cancelling are glitches shows your ignorance. L-cancelling was meant to be in the game. It was intended just like Z-cancelling was in SSB. Wavedashing isn't a glitch. A glitch is a violation of the way the software should run. In other words, if the software isn't working right because of what you did, it's a glitch. Wavedashing's an exploit, which is a manuever in which you jump, air dodge to the ground, and slide due to the traction and force of the air dodge when you land. However, the software is working fine since jumping, air dodging, sliding, and traction are what the software is supposed to run on. However, this combination wasn't intended by the creators. At the same time, the software's doing just fine. That's is why it's an exploit. It's a violation of the creator's intent, but not the software. A glitch violates both the creator's intent and the way the software ought to be running. In a sense, all glitches are exploits but not all exploits are glitches.