The Direction of the Zelda Boards

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, let me just start by saying this, Zelda is a bad character, this is not an attempt to say otherwise.


That said, the direction of the board is too far in the negative end, and I think this trend of "ignore singles, concentrate on teams/low tier" has taken it above and beyond the natural negativity that a low tier board should have (namely the "yes, we're bad, we gotta accept our weaknesses so stop saying we're top tier noob"). The board never misses an opportunity to comment about Zelda being bad, and creates them when none are present. We've taken on a trend of ignoring the main metagame in favor of regulating Zelda to counterpick, low tiers, and doubles.

Now, don't get me wrong, all those things are good and useful information for a character board to have, but when we're doing it cause "omg zelda sux too much, it's not worth playing her", well then we've hit the point of negativity that dwarfs even the Ganondorf boards.


Why's this a bad thing?


1. It creates a very negative culture, this makes people not wanna hang out here and makes prospective Zelda mains not wanna play zelda. Sure, full disclosure is good, but when the culture is so negative, it goes beyond the character being an uphill battle and into the boards being a big depression-fest. When you're already playing a low-tier, who needs that?


2. It makes it difficult to advance the metagame because it's perceived that Zelda will never improve, and Zelda will steadily drop below what she deserves.


3. When you accept defeat it makes it very difficult to organize around any goal, which causes among other things, board apathy and lack of tournament attendance.



So what should we do?




Well there are a couple of options.


1. A can-do attitude: "Yeah, Zelda sucks, but that just means I need to be a lot better then my opponent to win, sure it's hard, but I can do it!".


2. Sideline it: Basically, we all know that zelda sucks, but keep the board culture based around something else and don't really talk about it except when needed to be acknowledged in the interests of disclosure (ex. line 1 of the guide: ZELDA IS A BAD CHARACTER, SO STOP POSTING "omg Zelda is top tire lolz!").



To be fair, it doesn't have to be one or the other (ex. both Ganon and falcon board seem to use a combination of sidelining it with epicness and manliness and a general "can-do" attitude), and there are probably other options.



The point is that we're basically killing the board at the moment, we gotta get off the constant negativity somehow. Yea, sure, Zelda is bad, but that doesn't mean that we should hammer that in every second. We already know this, now that's go about the business of making the most with what we've got.

 

[zeldspazz]

2. It makes it difficult to advance the metagame because it's perceived that Zelda will never improve, and Zelda will steadily drop below what she deserves.

^^^^^^^^Thank you for saying this.


And also hes right. When I hear you guys saying to "stop using Zelda in singles" and blah blah, it makes me, a newcomer into the tourney scene soon, be discouraged from using her >_> One reason that Zeldas hit bottom 5 in peoples minds is because nobody uses her at a high level, and then we say stuff like this and expect people to start?

Hes right. Its been said before but we all do need to stop, cus I do it too.

 

[Kataefi]

I really really want to spam this thread right now with so many parodies lmao... but red name and all

Otherwise a fun read to me from an observation standpoint - It's like an echo of my thread I made awhile back. Brings up some interesting points! What made you want to write this deus?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

do/can Zeldas even have a can do attitude anymore when we pick the girl? we all seem to main/secondary something else better than her anyway that its like "why be can-do with this hoe, when i can just go Xcharacter in the next round if she flunks it?"

 

[#HBC | Scary]

do/can Zeldas even have a can do attitude anymore when we pick the girl? we all seem to main/secondary something else better than her anyway that its like "why be can-do with this hoe, when i can just go Xcharacter in the next round if she flunks it?"

I certainly still do. I absolutely depend on my Zelda to get the job done in MUs I know I cannot do with Sheik; just like vice versa with MUs I cannot do with Zelda.

I'm at the stubborn point where it's "I've put far too much work into Zelda/Sheik to give up on them." I won't be changing characters or adding a secondary anytime soon.

I'm gonna go all Zelda on the 31st and hopefully place well in singles only.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I certainly still do. I absolutely depend on my Zelda to get the job done in MUs I know I cannot do with Sheik; just like vice versa with MUs I cannot do with Zelda.

I'm at the stubborn point where it's "I've put far too much work into Zelda/Sheik to give up on them." I won't be changing characters or adding a secondary anytime soon.

I'm gonna go all Zelda on the 31st and hopefully place well in singles only.

this is a zelda we should all <3

 

[Icyo]

There's been enough of these types of threads.

 

[GodAtHand]

When I enter singles its still 100% Zelda. Unfortunately right now I can't afford singles... I'll get back into the fray in a month or so!

I felt the attitude has been less "She sucks!" (Except from the few who it is to be expected from routinely) and more "Lets focus on the positives!" which for Zelda is teams and low tiers. I don't really see a problem there (unless I am missing something which could be the case since I don't pay much attention to the negatives tbh).

Edit: After re-reading my post I realized I didn't really say anything lol. So... <3

 

[Bandit]

I know I speak personally when I say that I try to stay positive and answer questions people have. I know her game very well, and I have faced a lot of good competition. I know Zelda is not good in singles, but when you play her exclusively like I have for the past 1.5 years, you push people hard in singles. I will probably never win a tournament, but I wouldn't win a tournament with MK either. I play the game for fun, and she is the most fun I have with the game.

Now, when I come on here and try to have a conversation about her, I get a bunch of crap thrown my way about people who don't know arguing with me that I must be wrong. I get a lot of crap for saying stuff like:

- Love jumping is stupid
- NL momentum canceling is stupid
- FW edge canceling tricks are stupid and risky

Why do I say stuff like that? It is because, on a competitive level, they are useless tactics. FW edge canceling is very flashy and can be a great setup for a spike like I have seen Ninjalink do several times. What you are failing to realize is when people see you UpB when they grab the ledge, they will expect you to do that and simply get out of harms way. Plus, if you misjudged your distance, you're dead. It's a useless risk.

Naryu's Love momentum canceling was already talked about in the weakness thread about how it is no better at canceling momentum than Bair + Jump. It has terrible wind down and you sink down without being able to do anything limiting your recovery options.

Love jumping would be useful if you didn't have to be in tumble. If you are in tumble, and you have to love jump to make it back, you probably screwed up way before that to be in that position. Plus, you shouldn't be in tumble to begin with. (see above paragraph)

All the animosity I receive for helping out I will either pass off as trolling or as someone who hasn't faced high level competition. In high levels, you play safe. The point of Zelda is to be as efficient with your damage and moves as possible because she has a limited move set. People should be practicing bairs out of shield, rising bairs, rising fairs, dtilt combos, FW angles on all stages, etc. People should not be concerning themselves with unnecessary AT's that almost never come up in a real match.

Regardless of what people say, Zelda is capable of doing well in tournaments if she is played correctly. I will say that you probably should have a nice counterpick character to go with her if you run into things like a G&W, Marth, or Olimar. She does well enough against MK that she could get past him.

And yes, I truly believe that last sentence.

I have faced some good MK's and they absolutely hated playing my Zelda because I will play very defensively. Dtilt ruins his dash approaches, Usmash ruins his glide approaches, and proper shielding/timing of fsmash can beat tornado. Zelda forces MK to use unorthodox approaches to get in on her defense. If you stick to safe, quick moves and pick your spots to get the kills, then you can beat MK. You might write that off as predictable, but Zelda is predictable.

I will repeat that: Zelda is predictable.

Predictable is not a condemning aspect since there are several other good characters (DDD, MK, Snake, etc) who are predictable but still do fantastic. Again, play safe and stick to punishing the opponent. Do not get aggressive just because you feel the momentum.

-----

At this point of this post, I just want to end it because I could type forever about Zelda.

I don't care if you read this post, but just remember this:

If you say something or ask for help or start a discussion, when the players start backfiring against you collectively there is a reason for it. I'm not talking about the trolls (MrEh) or the "take everything personally" (AL), but the people who care about this character (Kataefi, KayLo, GreyFox, Riot, Me, etc). Listen to the veterans. We are not always right, but we are talking with good intentions.

-----

I think I'm done now.

Good night Zeldas.

:bandit:

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Honestly not going to listen to a **** thing you say when you start off with Zelda is a bad character.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Honestly not going to listen to a **** thing you say when you start off with Zelda is a bad character.

lol depends on what it's about

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol depends on what it's about

Na even think he good possible say is just written off the instant he opens with that.

 

[AzNfinesse]

it's like what i said before.

everyone just needs to stop being so negative about her. ok she's not a good character. we all know, realize, and accept this. we're still playing her for some reason right? maybe it's because we like the character, we love the zelda games, or we just think she's a hottie. whatever the reason may be, we still play her. so we might as well make the best of it and have fun playing her instead of walking around being emo tellin people you play a bad character.

be proud that u play zelda.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

@AL: That is a problem. Even if the chat starts off with something like that, you can't merely write off everything Bandit or anyone for that matter says. Just take it in stride like everyone else does. Bandit may say Zelda is a bad character but since he's still playing her and still contributes to her, so he's in it just like the rest of us. Just sayin'

@Bandit: It may seem like a joke, but I've found a use for the "Love Jump"! I mentioned it in the research thread but it just got passed up lol. If a move hits Zelda's shield with pushback, she can do the Love Jump OOS, and still have her DJ to move around. I find it practical but I don't know how practical it is. Maybe it can help her just a tad.

The momentum cancel is mega useful and I'd advise everyone to learn it. Not just to live longer in general, but now you don't have to just shoot for the ledge, you can make it to the stage.

Ledgewarping can be nifty but not necessary. I do it because it fits my style but it's up to everyone else. If you know you messed up in distance, don't go. Save a life, that's all there is to it.

Another thing I mentioned in the research thread is Platform canceling. It's stage dependent but it can make Zelda a monster and I'm trying to apply it now to my game. If you want more details about it, ask TommyG since he taught me about it. It could be nifty but again....not practical.

Alot of my rant about situational ATs don't belong in this thread and I just wanted to say a few things about each one. The fact is, we need to get out of this funk that this character board is in. We may not be Ganondorf or Captain Falcon and simply fall back on MANLINESS, but I am adamant on the belief that we are NOT bottom 5.

I think the goal of this community should be to go out and show we are not bottom 5. That's why those "silly rankings" are made, so we can have some friendly competition amongst ourselves but especially to get out to more tourneys.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AL: That is a problem. Even if the chat starts off with something like that, you can't merely write off everything Bandit or anyone for that matter says. Just take it in stride like everyone else does. Bandit may say Zelda is a bad character but since he's still playing her and still contributes to her, so he's in it just like the rest of us. Just sayin'

If he wants his opinion to be taken seriously maybe he should come correct. I'm tired of opening a thread and seeing Ima start off with Zelda is a crap character or a bad character she sucks blah blah blah. It's old it's tired and it's not needed. So everything after that becomes pointless and there's nothing he can say that I'd want to hear.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

If he wants his opinion to be taken seriously maybe he should come correct. I'm tired of opening a thread and seeing Ima start off with Zelda is a crap character or a bad character she sucks blah blah blah. It's old it's tired and it's not needed. So everything after that becomes pointless and there's nothing he can say that I'd want to hear.

Ok, I can agree to this to an extent. There's still no need to create pointless arguments that go nowhere and take away from the positives of this board. Optimism is wonderful but too much is still a bad thing. Try not to let your optimism blind you and start arguments. That's all I can really say about it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok, I can agree to this to an extent. There's still no need to create pointless arguments that go nowhere and take away from the positives of this board. Optimism is wonderful but too much is still a bad thing. Try not to let your optimism blind you and start arguments. That's all I can really say about it.

Alright I got you.

 

[KayLo!]

Um. So I'm just gonna throw my (long) 2 cents in here.

For one, when I say people should use Zelda for what she's good for (doubles/low tiers/wifi), that's me speaking to people who actually want to win and excel at this game. It's just me being honest. You're not gonna place well (read: in the money) in a singles tournament full of pro/semi-pro-level top tiers with Zelda. Bobby is the only exception, but a) he still CPs sometimes, and b) he lives in an extremely isolated bubble of players. I'm not trying to take away from his skill at all, because he's a great player, but it does affect things.

Imo, part of being a smart, successful Smash player is knowing how and when to use all the characters you play. This is the Zelda board, but most of us don't play Zelda exclusively..... and I really think Zelda as a character would see more success if people stopped trying to force her into top tier play and focused on her strong points.

Then again, I don't main her or have this burning desire to play Zelda and only Zelda, so. *shrug*

That being said, I never stomp on good discussion that actually has the potential to move Zelda's metagame forward. I recognize that some people aren't driven by winning.... and I know there are people who will use Zelda no matter what. I never tell people "Oh, just CP MK" or whatever. But I applaud people who've decided to stop limiting themselves as players with a crap character.

For two, I really really really hate seeing useless discussions that won't do jack **** for her metagame. Or topics about things that're ridiculously simple to figure out. Ex: "Let's talk about how to recover better." *facepalmfacepalmfacepalm*

Listen, Zelda's a simple character. She doesn't have many options in most situations, and she only has a handful of moves that're actually useful outside of situational moments. It's not that hard to play her. You space well, don't run into ****, and accept the many scenarios where there isn't a **** thing you can do. MrEh says it all the time: you just play smart.

Trying to improve things that can't be improved is stupid and accomplishes nothing. Instead, we should focus more on helping each other a) make smarter choices, and b) avoid those situations where we're severely limited.

Using my example from before, instead of asking "How can we recover better?" (because recovering with Zelda is dumb easy -- just not very effective, and there's nothing we can do about that), we should ask, "How can we avoid situations where we're forced to recover?"

For three, I think a lot of you get butthurt too easily. Zelda's crap, and people are always gonna say she's crap, so get used to it. Ganon, Link, Jiggs, and Falcon are all crap too. Crapcrapcrap. Stop crying about it.​

 

[adumbrodeus]

I really really want to spam this thread right now with so many parodies lmao... but red name and all

Otherwise a fun read to me from an observation standpoint - It's like an echo of my thread I made awhile back. Brings up some interesting points! What made you want to write this deus?

Looking back at your thread I see, but that was more about personalities as opposed to this which is more about the board's culture, and this has been building for a while.

do/can Zeldas even have a can do attitude anymore when we pick the girl? we all seem to main/secondary something else better than her anyway that its like "why be can-do with this hoe, when i can just go Xcharacter in the next round if she flunks it?"

Have a "can-do" attitude for what we use her for, and don't discourage people who wanna use her for that.

If he wants his opinion to be taken seriously maybe he should come correct. I'm tired of opening a thread and seeing Ima start off with Zelda is a crap character or a bad character she sucks blah blah blah. It's old it's tired and it's not needed. So everything after that becomes pointless and there's nothing he can say that I'd want to hear.

Come on AL, you know what this thread would be perceived as if I didn't open with that.

It would be taken as a "zelda is actually good and you guys are all poopyheads for thinking she sucks!" thread.


Yes, considering the theme of the thread it might be consider hypocritical but again, I didn't really have a choice.

For one, when I say people should use Zelda for what she's good for (doubles/low tiers/wifi), that's me speaking to people who actually want to win and excel at this game. It's just me being honest. You're not gonna place well (read: in the money) in a singles tournament full of pro/semi-pro-level top tiers with Zelda. Bobby is the only exception, but a) he still CPs sometimes, and b) he lives in an extremely isolated bubble of players. I'm not trying to take away from his skill at all, because he's a great player, but it does affect things.

Imo, part of being a smart, successful Smash player is knowing how and when to use all the characters you play. This is the Zelda board, but most of us don't play Zelda exclusively..... and I really think Zelda as a character would see more success if people stopped trying to force her into top tier play and focused on her strong points.

Then again, I don't main her or have this burning desire to play Zelda and only Zelda, so. *shrug*

That being said, I never stomp on good discussion that actually has the potential to move Zelda's metagame forward. I recognize that some people aren't driven by winning.... and I know there are people who will use Zelda no matter what. I never tell people "Oh, just CP MK" or whatever. But I applaud people who've decided to stop limiting themselves as players with a crap character.​

​

We're a character board on a competitive site for a competitive game, it should be assumed that we all wanna excel. If excelling means we gotta get to DM's level, then that should be our objective.

You might say that it's unrealistic, but what's the point of competitive gaming then? Then objective is to improve to a level where you're literally the best in the game, and I think this "you can't win" talk makes it so that it's really impossible. Honestly, who knows, the next truly great player might be in our midst right now, but without encouragement he/she will never realize their potential and be regulated to being yet another wifi scrub.

If you wanna make it easier on you, it's ok, but you know what, most people don't place in a tournament full of pro players anyway. The way to change that first and foremost is to GET BETTER, and accepting that you're fated to lose isn't gonna help that.


Also, understand I'm not saying anyone is stomping on that sort of thing on purpose, it's just the overall board culture is contributing towards competitive apathy which is causing problems in every area I mentioned.

For two, I really really really hate seeing useful discussions that won't do jack **** for her metagame. Or topics about things that're ridiculously simple to figure out. Ex: "Let's talk about how to recover better." *facepalmfacepalmfacepalm*

Listen, Zelda's a simple character. She doesn't have many options in most situations, and she only has a handful of moves that're actually useful outside of situational moments. It's not that hard to play her. You space well, don't run into ****, and accept the many scenarios where there isn't a **** thing you can do. MrEh says it all the time: you just play smart.

Trying to improve things that can't be improved is stupid and accomplishes nothing. Instead, we should focus more on helping each other a) make smarter choices, and b) avoid those situations where we're severely limited.

Using my example from before, instead of asking "How can we recover better?" (because recovering with Zelda is dumb easy -- just not very effective, and there's nothing we can do about that), we should ask, "How can we avoid situations where we're forced to recover?"​

Prioritizing avoiding the circumstances is a good mentality, however we need to discuss the flip side too, and who knows, we might discover something useless that makes the situation less of a crapshoot.

For three, I think a lot of you get butthurt too easily. Zelda's crap, and people are always gonna say she's crap, so get used to it. Ganon, Link, Jiggs, and Falcon are all crap too. Crapcrapcrap. Stop crying about it.​

Not getting butthurt here at all. I'm addressing this from a sociological standpoint, and this isn't anyone in particular's fault either really.


We should acknowledge Zelda is a bad character, but when it becomes this omni-present on the boards, it develops a culture that's hurtful towards competitively improving for the people who are board regulars.


The zelda boards should be doing their absolute best to encourage people to play competitively with zelda as well as possible, even if she is crap, cause if we won't support them, who will?


Again, Ganon is crap, but the boards have this great "can-do" attitude and put their all into being the best that they can, to the point where we have people like Ray Kalm placing 7th in a tournament full of pro and semi-pro Canadian players.


That's what Zelda boards should be trying to do (except placing first obviously).​

 

[Mocha]

I, too, would like to see a little more optimism from the Zelda boards. Not until the point where it gives a ‘blind’ perspective to Zelda users, but enough so that Zelda isn’t constantly discouraging us. Now I don’t generally post here, or on SWF at all for that matter, because I find this place a bit intimidating – especially to new members such as myself.

But I want to become a better player, and by contributing more to the boards, I hope this can help a little. That being said, I’m still a newbie to Brawl, and have much to learn. I have not been to a tournament yet, and a part of that reason is because I don’t feel that I’m even remotely ready to face one. My main problem is match up experience in general. Which is why I constantly lurk the Zelda matchup discussion threads and try to learn something useful. Often I do, but I still see a lot of that negativity regarding Zelda’s potential as a character.

Now here’s another concern of mine. Most of us have secondary mains or ‘back-ups’ for Zelda, yes? Or some of us don’t even main Zelda but use her as an alternate. Pikachu is (or was, I can’t decide) my secondary main for Zelda. Although sometimes I wonder if I should be focusing entirely on Zelda, or putting effort into focusing on the secondary mains as well. It feels like (to me anyway) whenever I focus on a secondary main for too long, and I pick her up again, she feels almost foreign to me. I’ve seen people here who can have, five mains, and I don’t understand how they can focus on so many characters at once and still play them well. Or NinjaLink, who plays on random and can use anyone =) Honestly, how do you all do it?

Back to the point though, I’m all for trying to prevent bashing on Zelda all the time. Once in awhile, it’s fine, but it gets to the point where it does get a bit old and tedious. I’m a bit of a hypocrite myself in that regard, because I often complain to my bf about how much Zelda sucks, but I’m hoping to change that. Anyway… I’ll stop ranting now. xD

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Shine sparkle dazzle. Zelda pwns.

Also kaylo just out of curiosity when was the last time a pikachu placed in the money in our region?

 

[Kataefi]

AL edit your post in 5 minutes and if you don't...
_

edit: Thanks

 

[Bandit]

Shine sparkle dazzle. Zelda pwns.

Also kaylo just out of curiosity when was the last time a pikachu placed in the money in our region?

Whenever the last time Anther visited.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Whenever the last time Anther visited.

He finished 7th Apex IDK if that was in the money or the last time he was here but my point still remains pikachu is about as viable in this region as Zelda.

 

[Bandit]

He finished 7th Apex IDK if that was in the money or the last time he was here but my point still remains pikachu is about as viable in this region as Zelda.

Your logic is completely wrong.

Just because there isn't a top player using Pikachu in this region (I'm MD/VA so I know NY/NJ well) doesn't mean Pikachu is not viable. It simply means the better players of the region don't use him. There is no connection between usage and viability.

Popularity trends towards viability, but it is not an indicator of viability. People want to use the best characters because they want to win the tournaments in the easiest and most efficient fashions. This is why the best characters are the most popular.

At Pound, the top 10 was something this: Diddy, MK/Snake, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar, MK, MK/Lucario...

According to the logic you are using, the only characters you should play are MK, Diddy and Olimar because the Snake and Lucario players had to use MK at some point to advance in the tournament. The Olimar and Diddy players were the only ones capable of playing with MK's by themselves. Olimar and Diddy are both niche characters with glaring recovery weaknesses, so not many people can play them well. In the end, just play MK.

Region Popularity =/= Viability

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Your logic is completely wrong.

Just because there isn't a top player using Pikachu in this region (I'm MD/VA so I know NY/NJ well) doesn't mean Pikachu is not viable. It simply means the better players of the region don't use him. There is no connection between usage and viability.

Popularity trends towards viability, but it is not an indicator of viability. People want to use the best characters because they want to win the tournaments in the easiest and most efficient fashions. This is why the best characters are the most popular.

At Pound, the top 10 was something this: Diddy, MK/Snake, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar, MK, MK/Lucario...

According to the logic you are using, the only characters you should play are MK, Diddy and Olimar because the Snake and Lucario players had to use MK at some point to advance in the tournament. The Olimar and Diddy players were the only ones capable of playing with MK's by themselves. Olimar and Diddy are both niche characters with glaring recovery weaknesses, so not many people can play them well. In the end, just play MK.

Region Popularity =/= Viability

Those results tell me that if your character can't go at least even with MK then he's not viable last I checked pika got ***** something fierce by MK. MK diddy Olimar all bad match ups for pika. Snake is another bad match up for pika i know about his CG doesn't matter it's not enough to swing the match up in pikas favor nor is it enough for pika to win. Pikachu isn't viable in NJ/NY just like a whole list of other characters. But my point is it's asinine on her part to try to belittle Zelda when in her own region there isn't a pikachu doing anything to give her this much confidence in her character. Hell outside of Anther I don't see pikas do too much of anything maybe pikapika or esam every once and a while but yeah Pika isn't as great of a character as kaylor makes her our to be.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why are we being dismal about PIKACHU now? We're zelda boards, we're supposed to be talking about how horrible ZELDA is! Seriously.


But seriously, complaining about how bad other characters are only makes the atmosphere MORE negative, and we really don't need that.

Spoiler

Anyway, we all know that MK is basically the only viable character, with snake, diddy, and wario barely sneaking in (falco too with planking banned).

Also, AlMoStLeGeNdArY, you didn't see my response to you?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why are we being dismal about PIKACHU now? We're zelda boards, we're supposed to be talking about how horrible ZELDA is! Seriously.


But seriously, complaining about how bad other characters are only makes the atmosphere MORE negative, and we really don't need that.

Spoiler

Anyway, we all know that MK is basically the only viable character, with snake, diddy, and wario barely sneaking in (falco too with planking banned).

Also, AlMoStLeGeNdArY, you didn't see my response to you?

I saw it, it made me go back and read your oP now I feel like an ***.

 

[Bandit]

You are far less experienced than a lot of people and reading tournament results doesn't mean you know anything.

After reading your post, I know you didn't get anything that I told you. I will say it again.

How good a character is does not show in its popularity. Olimar is not a popular character. Diddy is not a popular character. They are obviously good characters. Pikachu is an under represented character. It doesn't mean he's a bad character; it means he is not a popular character. Sonic is a crazy popular character but he is one of the worst in the game.

Seriously, I'm very close to putting you on my ignore list because nothing you ever say seems positive or helpful.

 

[KayLo!]

@AL: I really don't want to get too far into the Pikachu thing, but since you started it.....

Like Bandit said, Pikachu is horribly underrepresented. However, he is more than viable in tournament.... Anther, Z, PikaPika!, and ESAM place extremely well with him (read: top 3, having won multiple times) within their regions all the time. (Well, PP! likes to take random hiatuses....) Now that M2K has moved to Ohio, he plays Anther whenever they show up at a midwest tournament together, and Anther has come very close to beating him in tournament.

They all live in fairly strong regions, too.... Anther in MI, Z in Vegas, PikaPika! in WNY, and ESAM in FL.

Now find me a Zelda that's taken sets off of pros and placed in money. I'll wait. Inb4Bobby, because I already explained why his situation is out of the norm.

The fact that I'm the best Pika in PA/NJ just means that PA/NJ doesn't have very good Pika rep, lol. I never say Pikachu's this ridiculously great character (in fact, I think he should go down a bit on the tier list and was very overhyped for a while), and I acknowledge that I'm a pretty mediocre player. I've never said otherwise. But you can't use our one region (where there's no great Zelda either, and I've never seen you at a single tournament......) to prove your point.

When I tell people to pick up Pikachu, that's just main pride. He's ****ing adorable.... everybody should use him. Also, he desperately needs more players.

But anyone with any common sense can tell that Zelda is a much, much, much less viable character than Pikachu. If a Pikachu is better than his opponent and knows the MU, he'll probably win the match. If a Zelda is better than her opponent and knows the MU, there's a very good chance she might still lose because of her character limitations.

That's just how it is. She sucks. Get over it, use her for doubles and low tiers, and move the **** on.

I don't even know why you brought up Pika, but since you did, there's my answer.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@AL: I really don't want to get too far into the Pikachu thing, but since you started it.....

Like Bandit said, Pikachu is horribly underrepresented. However, he is more than viable in tournament.... Anther, Z, PikaPika!, and ESAM place extremely well with him (read: top 3, having won multiple times) within their regions all the time. (Well, PP! likes to take random hiatuses....) Now that M2K has moved to Ohio, he plays Anther whenever they show up at a midwest tournament together, and Anther has come very close to beating him in tournament.

They all live in fairly strong regions, too.... Anther in MI, Z in Vegas, PikaPika! in WNY, and ESAM in FL.

Now find me a Zelda that's taken sets off of pros and placed in money. I'll wait. Inb4Bobby, because I already explained why his situation is out of the norm.

The fact that I'm the best Pika in PA/NJ just means that PA/NJ doesn't have very good Pika rep, lol. I never say Pikachu's this ridiculously great character (in fact, I think he should go down a bit on the tier list and was very overhyped for a while), and I acknowledge that I'm a pretty mediocre player. I've never said otherwise. But you can't use our one region (where there's no great Zelda either, and I've never seen you at a single tournament......) to prove your point.

When I tell people to pick up Pikachu, that's just main pride. He's ****ing adorable.... everybody should use him. Also, he desperately needs more players.

But anyone with any common sense can tell that Zelda is a much, much, much less viable character than Pikachu. If a Pikachu is better than his opponent and knows the MU, he'll probably win the match. If a Zelda is better than her opponent and knows the MU, there's a very good chance she might still lose because of her character limitations.

That's just how it is. She sucks. Get over it, use her for doubles and low tiers, and move the **** on.

I don't even know why you brought up Pika, but since you did, there's my answer.

Why are you letting AL bait you Kaylo?



Regardless, I appreciate responses to my points, again, it's not even that you're technically wrong, it's that this negative board culture is just too much.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You are far less experienced than a lot of people and reading tournament results doesn't mean you know anything.

After reading your post, I know you didn't get anything that I told you. I will say it again.

How good a character is does not show in its popularity. Olimar is not a popular character. Diddy is not a popular character. They are obviously good characters. Pikachu is an under represented character. It doesn't mean he's a bad character; it means he is not a popular character. Sonic is a crazy popular character but he is one of the worst in the game.

Seriously, I'm very close to putting you on my ignore list because nothing you ever say seems positive or helpful.

Yawn my character is underrepresented john. Blah blah blah pika sucks he gets no rep because he is balls. LoL thats funny bandit cuz I was thinking of putting you on ignore also. I also feel it quite hilarious that a Brawl + player continuously comments on Zelda's brawl metagame what a joke.

@AL: I really don't want to get too far into the Pikachu thing, but since you started it.....

Like Bandit said, Pikachu is horribly underrepresented. However, he is more than viable in tournament.... Anther, Z, PikaPika!, and ESAM place extremely well with him (read: top 3, having won multiple times) within their regions all the time. (Well, PP! likes to take random hiatuses....) Now that M2K has moved to Ohio, he plays Anther whenever they show up at a midwest tournament together, and Anther has come very close to beating him in tournament.

They all live in fairly strong regions, too.... Anther in MI, Z in Vegas, PikaPika! in WNY, and ESAM in FL.

Now find me a Zelda that's taken sets off of pros and placed in money. I'll wait. Inb4Bobby, because I already explained why his situation is out of the norm.

The fact that I'm the best Pika in PA/NJ just means that PA/NJ doesn't have very good Pika rep, lol. I never say Pikachu's this ridiculously great character (in fact, I think he should go down a bit on the tier list and was very overhyped for a while), and I acknowledge that I'm a pretty mediocre player. I've never said otherwise. But you can't use our one region (where there's no great Zelda either, and I've never seen you at a single tournament......) to prove your point.

When I tell people to pick up Pikachu, that's just main pride. He's ****ing adorable.... everybody should use him. Also, he desperately needs more players.

But anyone with any common sense can tell that Zelda is a much, much, much less viable character than Pikachu. If a Pikachu is better than his opponent and knows the MU, he'll probably win the match. If a Zelda is better than her opponent and knows the MU, there's a very good chance she might still lose because of her character limitations.

That's just how it is. She sucks. Get over it, use her for doubles and low tiers, and move the **** on.

I don't even know why you brought up Pika, but since you did, there's my answer.

Give me one Zelda that plays anywhere close to the level of anther and I think you'll have your answer. Wahh Wahh wahh my character is underrepresented yeah i'm sure. Your character is represented just fine it just doesn't measure up to other characters in high levels of play. I believe snakee has played in the money with Zelda before. But whatever I guess.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Snakee uses Zelda occasionally, but for the most part he uses ZSS, because she's considerably more viable... You aren't seriously implying that Pikachu is as non-viable as Zelda, are you? KayLo! covered it pretty well, so I'll make my contribution short.

Anyone who thinks that Pikachu is comparable to Zelda in terms of non-viability is a ******. End of.

 

[GodAtHand]

Snakee uses Zelda occasionally, but for the most part he uses ZSS, because she's considerably more viable... You aren't seriously implying that Pikachu is as non-viable as Zelda, are you? KayLo! covered it pretty well, so I'll make my contribution short.

Anyone who thinks that Pikachu is comparable to Zelda in terms of non-viability is a ******. End of.

Snakee has now officially switched to Metaknight, I talked to his brother this weekend. (NY/NJ showed up to one of our tournaments).

Now about the attitude of the Zelda boards.... was that last sentence really necessary?

 

[Kataefi]

Enough of the pika talk now.

Bandit/Kaylo do not respond to AL's post, and AL no more pressing on pikachu's viability. Make a thread on the pika boards if it concerns you so much. This applies to everyone. I'll hand out warnings if arguments (specifically) launch this thread to off-topic heaven.

Back to zelda

 

[Icyo]

Zelda and Pikachu might as well be the same things. They're equally viable.

 

[KayLo!]

Why are you letting AL bait you Kaylo?

Regardless, I appreciate responses to my points, again, it's not even that you're technically wrong, it's that this negative board culture is just too much.

I dunno if you're being sarcastic, because I didn't respond to you yet. =X

As for AL, I just wanted to get my point out there once so that his ignorance wouldn't affect the less experienced who might be lurking and reading this topic. Now that I've said my piece, though, I'm done with him. =D

We're a character board on a competitive site for a competitive game, it should be assumed that we all wanna excel. If excelling means we gotta get to DM's level, then that should be our objective.

Like I said before: Bobby is an amazing player, and I'm not the expert on how Hawaii's metagame compares with ours, but his case is unique in that he plays within a bubble. Everybody there knows each other's playstyles, which changes things. You can't use him as an example for Zelda players as a whole.

He also CPs sometimes (which is what everybody should be doing..... which is my entire point), so you can't take his placings at face value either.

I think this "you can't win" talk makes it so that it's really impossible. Honestly, who knows, the next truly great player might be in our midst right now, but without encouragement he/she will never realize their potential and be regulated to being yet another wifi scrub.

If they really want to be the next great Smash player using Zelda, they'll do so regardless of how negative the boards are. Most of the best players don't even read the character boards, lol. They **** sure don't listen to people who probably aren't as good as them anyway.

People who go to that level have a trend of reading the boards for the basics of how to play the character, then improve the rest of the way based on experience and innovation. I think you (and some others) are taking this whole "culture of negativity" thing a bit too seriously.

The only person who's really even that negative is MrEh, but he provides plenty of good information alongside that. (He just typically says it in 1-2 sentences, which is usually all you need when it comes to Zelda. She's common sense personified.) I guess I would come in second place, but I also do my part around here. Who are the other people you're talking about who're contributing to this negative trend? Everyone else seems to talk neutrally or about sparkles....................

If you wanna make it easier on you, it's ok, but you know what, most people don't place in a tournament full of pro players anyway. The way to change that first and foremost is to GET BETTER, and accepting that you're fated to lose isn't gonna help that.

I've never told anybody that they're fated to lose, ever. I encourage everyone to play their best, get experience, improve, and if they want to use Zelda, I always say: you better be **** sure you're playing a helluva lot better than the other guy.

I don't think anybody (besides maybe MrEh) has ever told anyone that they're inevitably gonna lose, just that you have to be RIDICULOUSLY more skilled than your opponent. Or rely on Zelda's lack of rep and pray to god they don't have adequate MU experience.

Also, understand I'm not saying anyone is stomping on that sort of thing on purpose, it's just the overall board culture is contributing towards competitive apathy which is causing problems in every area I mentioned.

Most Zeldas don't go to tournaments anyway, so there's your competitive apathy. The ones who do continue to attend tournaments as much as they always have.

Prioritizing avoiding the circumstances is a good mentality, however we need to discuss the flip side too, and who knows, we might discover something useless that makes the situation less of a crapshoot.

I disagree with that, but. *shrug*

Discussing the many angles of recovering with FW is beating a dead horse. Some things are really that simple and take two brain cells to figure out.

MrEh summarized her recovery in two sentences. That's how basic a lot of things about Zelda are, but people want to waste time talking about them anyway, and I find it hilariously stupid.

The zelda boards should be doing their absolute best to encourage people to play competitively with zelda as well as possible, even if she is crap, cause if we won't support them, who will?

Again, Ganon is crap, but the boards have this great "can-do" attitude and put their all into being the best that they can, to the point where we have people like Ray Kalm placing 7th in a tournament full of pro and semi-pro Canadian players.

That's what Zelda boards should be trying to do (except placing first obviously).

Oh well, we're not the Ganons. You're also implying that Ray Kalm placed that high because of a morale boost from his character board, but in reality, I'm sure his skill and experience had everything to do with it.

Let's do a trial run of positivity and see if Riot suddenly places 10th or higher at a national. Then I might believe you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I dunno if you're being sarcastic, because I didn't respond to you yet. =X

As for AL, I just wanted to get my point out there once so that his ignorance wouldn't affect the less experienced who might be lurking and reading this topic. Now that I've said my piece, though, I'm done with him. =D

Where does your arrogance and elitist attitude come it's very perplexing to me.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Snakee has now officially switched to Metaknight, I talked to his brother this weekend. (NY/NJ showed up to one of our tournaments).

Now about the attitude of the Zelda boards.... was that last sentence really necessary?

Well that sucks. More ZSS mains are needed to show her potential, not less...

And no, that last sentence wasn't really necessary. It just adds emphasis.

 

[DeTa]

I'd really like to see Zelda's metagame progress. We all know Zelda won't be top tier, but if people begin considering your skill with her, you'll be a respected smasher. The goal of competitive play, imo, is to have fun being competitive and showing off what you can do with your mains. The community won't nag at you for losing with her. It's perfectly understandable that Zelda wouldn't be able to beat top MKs or Snakes or any of those top tiers at high competitive play. Just play as Zelda and have fun. If you're looking to win at game tournaments with characters you like, which happen to be low tier, maybe Brawl isn't the game for you.