Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Ray_Kalm]

If any of you want a better feel for the MU, I'd be down for some 3DS or Wii U matches. FC: 2664-2129-3777 NNID: Regralht

I'm down for the Wii U. Is it fine if we do this in a set format, and I record & upload the matches?

 

[Regralht]

I'm down for the Wii U. Is it fine if we do this in a set format, and I record & upload the matches?

Sure thing. I'll be busy tomorrow, but I'll be free for the weekend at any time. Do you have a time in mind?

 

[Z-Bone]

Represent us well, Regralht. Remember: Don't get hit.

 

[Scraptor]

Last night on the line was for some reason Yoshi night I didn't know about. I played 2 people on Nintendo Dojo that used him and 2 more on FG. I really struggled with them spamming their Bairs. I think I Ftilted one once but wasn't sure if that was dumb luck or something that can counter it. I tried my best to not get grabbed but it is tough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find it absolutely hilarious watching @ Ray_Kalm so readily go for the challenges.

I wouldn't have him any other way.

 

[WarioWaft]

Last night on the line was for some reason Yoshi night I didn't know about. I played 2 people on Nintendo Dojo that used him and 2 more on FG. I really struggled with them spamming their Bairs. I think I Ftilted one once but wasn't sure if that was dumb luck or something that can counter it. I tried my best to not get grabbed but it is tough.

The simple solution I have found for avoiding prolonged grabs (Link's Hook, Samus Chains, Zero Suit Whip, Yoshi tongue) is to jump up. You have way more time to punish them than waiting for the delay from a spot dodge or risk rolling around them or farther back. You jump up barely and the line will actually go near your feet if not over your feet near your knees and you won't get grabbed.

The biggest problem I have no is Captain Falcon's sliding grab. No matter how much I try to jab or ftilt it as he's running at me it doesn't work. And spot dodging his grab is moot as well online.

 

[KenMeister]

The simple solution I have found for avoiding prolonged grabs (Link's Hook, Samus Chains, Zero Suit Whip, Yoshi tongue) is to jump up. You have way more time to punish them than waiting for the delay from a spot dodge or risk rolling around them or farther back. You jump up barely and the line will actually go near your feet if not over your feet near your knees and you won't get grabbed.

The biggest problem I have no is Captain Falcon's sliding grab. No matter how much I try to jab or ftilt it as he's running at me it doesn't work. And spot dodging his grab is moot as well online.

Don't quote me on this, but if you can read it, try short hop nair, bair or fair (I recommend RAR'd bairs personally). Grab doesn't have armor like previous games, so you should be able to beat it out.

 

[WarioWaft]

Don't quote me on this, but if you can read it, try short hop nair, bair or fair (I recommend RAR'd bairs personally). Grab doesn't have armor like previous games, so you should be able to beat it out.

Thanks. I tend to prefer ftilt or neutral jab if Cap is going for shoulder charge but for grabs because he slides like 5 feet into it it's difficult to read. I'll toy around with the short hop nair.

 

[KenMeister]

Thanks. I tend to prefer ftilt or neutral jab if Cap is going for shoulder charge but for grabs because he slides like 5 feet into it it's difficult to read. I'll toy around with the short hop nair.

Yeah, I tend to feel like not enough people take advantage of dash grab, and the occassional moments they use they're hard to predict, I've done that plenty of people as a mix up option if they whiff something. That being said though, I've had at least 2 people I fought spot dodge it before despite the mix-up, and man I was I pissed. lol

 

[WarioWaft]

Yeah, I tend to feel like not enough people take advantage of dash grab, and the occassional moments they use they're hard to predict, I've done that plenty of people as a mix up option if they whiff something. That being said though, I've had at least 2 people I fought spot dodge it before despite the mix-up, and man I was I pissed. lol

I've done it, it's just like 1/10 even if I time it right. It's like a black hole sucking me in even though he's far away.

 

[Regralht]

I'm afraid our match didn't really reveal much. I got outplayed hard. @_@

That said, I'm curious as to what stages you guys would ban against Yoshi. FD seems to be his best stage in general.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sure thing. I'll be busy tomorrow, but I'll be free for the weekend at any time. Do you have a time in mind?

We played, and the scores ended up 5-1. I lost once on Final Destination (johns on suicide). I didn't record anything because I didn't think it was worth recording.

What I've learned, the best stages to go are Smashville and Battlefield. Play very defensively, and be as campy as Yoshi is.

Trade hits, hit him and then retreat, not very awarding trying to follow up against Yoshi. Use FThrows more than Dthrows. And be careful, Yoshi could appear in front of you due to his massive airspeed.

Be careful for egg lays off stage, mash your jump and attack buttons as fast as you can to recover.

 

[WarioWaft]

I'm afraid our match didn't really reveal much. I got outplayed hard. @_@

That said, I'm curious as to what stages you guys would ban against Yoshi. FD seems to be his best stage in general.

Ohhh can I play you? Going against a good Yoshi is probably my favorite match up tbh.

 

[Regralht]

Ohhh can I play you? Going against a good Yoshi is probably my favorite match up tbh.

Yeah sure. PM me your NNID.

I saved one match against Ray_Kalm if any of you want to see it. Here it is

 

[WarioWaft]

Yeah sure. PM me your NNID.

I saved one match against Ray_Kalm if any of you want to see it. I'll edit this post once I have it up.

Don't know who to send a PM on this site, but my NNID should be MasturJeff.

When are you getting on?

 

[Xinc]

I understand the best stage Ganon has against Yoshi would be BF, especially the platforms giving Ganondorf pseudo protection against Yoshi's eggs and mitigating some of the chaos Yoshi can do to Ganon by limiting his movement. Ganon can take advantage of that and bring the match to a close quarters.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

I know a very solid Yoshi, but I guess he can't come play you guys, so I'll have to play him more and post some meaningful information after this weekend.

 

[Xinc]

I know a very solid Yoshi, but I guess he can't come play you guys, so I'll have to play him more and post some meaningful information after this weekend.

Very well.

Thanks for all the wonderful information, folks. I'll do my best to update before 1/20 is over.

 

[_Magus_]

You guys already know I'm about to rep battlefield hard, but I have to. Since grounded choke pops Yoshi up on the lower platform, it's an especially good choice vs. him, as we get so many more and more effective followups, even if he techs.
If eggs give you any trouble at all, you can use the platforms for cover, etc. My guide is in my sig if you want to read up on it more.

I'd ban FD at all costs against Yoshi. Ganondorf just doesn't do as well there, and Yoshi is able to more easily exploit his tricksies.

 

[KieRanaRan]

There's a little cafe place nearby that hosts Smash and other tabletop/card games that me and some buds go to every week. One of the guys there plays a real good Yoshi. If I can get a match with him on Tuesday then I can hopefully add my 2 cents.

 

[Xinc]

There's a little cafe place nearby that hosts Smash and other tabletop/card games that me and some buds go to every week. One of the guys there plays a real good Yoshi. If I can get a match with him on Tuesday then I can hopefully add my 2 cents.

Represent us well, then.
I'm fairly certain the matchup is dependent on whichever stage is chosen, but in neutral, Yoshi has an easier time not only approaching but preventing Ganon from approaching with his eggs, which is essential to the matchup. Also, Yoshi's double jump properties and his ability to act out of it makes it extremely difficult to land a successful gimp, especially down air (though I hear footstools are lovely this time of year). Yoshi's down air is also a powerful damage racker and can potentially get all the hits in due to Ganondorf's height and size. All in all, Yoshi has an easier time with mobility and damage racking, though I believe the situation can be somewhat remedied by the punishable WizKick, a good option to close distance, though it would be best to use it sparingly.

However, Yoshis can't just recklessly go in, or he'll eat big damage. Any mistake Yoshi makes can be capitalized by Ganon, especially if the stage is BF, in which the platforms offer some protection against eggs and the smaller stage allows for Ganondorf to close in more easily.

Yoshi can't act out of choke, outside of tech, and is vulnerable to ftilt, jab, and down tilt, which is an advantageous thing Ganon has and can be a game decider in high percents.

If Ganondorf actually gets in, his down throw offers many followups dependent on DI such as up air, dash attack, and wizard's foot (low percents only). The only difficulty in this scenario is staying in and closing the stock.

Regretfully, Ganondorf suffers a bit in this matchup, but it's not the end of the world. It's probably 60-40.

EDIT: Due to a situation with the classes and work I have, I won't be able to update until tonight.

 

[jmanup85]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, is this even being kept up with?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, is this even being kept up with?

Slowly is always better. No need to rush anything, the game is still just introducing itself to us.

 

[Xinc]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, is this even being kept up with?

Slowly is always better. No need to rush anything, the game is still just introducing itself to us.

Sorry, life has been piling up so I've been updating this. The main reason why it's so slow is so I can carefully compile all the right data.

 

[JmacAttack]

I know this discussion has come and gone, but I really don't think the Luigi matchup is 55:45, I think it's dead even. The fireballs are REALLY overstated. Decent damage, but a poor camping/kiting tool due to slow speed and limited trajectory. The only great thing about them is that they can potentially set up grab combos, but Luigi has to read you getting hit AND attempting to shield in place afterward for that to work, because if you shield it and he runs in, jab or ftilt OOS answers it, and if it hits you, the hitstun is not enough to stop you from rolling, jabbing, or dodging. Luigi has deadly grab combos against Ganon, but none of them are kill combos, while Ganon kills Luigi extremely early with aerials/tilts, and Luigi's kill moves are severely limited. Even his down-smash won't kill until extreme percents nearing 200%, and as long as you don't over-commit, he'll have difficulty landing his fsmash and usmash (used bair, got shielded, didn't autocancel, still couldn't Fsmash me before my shield went up). Sweetspot up-B is an early kill option, but requires a hard read or an extreme over-extension from Ganon, as it is EXTREMELY laggy on shield or miss.

Luigi can't really edgeguard Ganon unless he punishes a whiffed Ganoncide attempt, but Ganon can easily edgeguard Luigi, as Luigi's airspeed is sluggish and floaty, and while his Tornado protects him, it has a wide open spot at the end where he can't do anything, which can be exploited. His floatiness also makes it rather easy to Ganoncide him, as Fireballs might cover it head-on, but those aren't dangerous off the stage, and you CAN grab him from under the fireballs, but this takes precise aim, and you're likely to grab the ledge instead unless he's poking off of it like an idiot.

Luigi's fireball is worse than Mario's for making aerial approaches. It flies straight forward, so if he jumps towards you, you can cover any of those aerials with usmash, which works for both damage and killing, while having very little lag of its own. Tornado is a good option, but if the last hit doesn't connect because of DI, it can be immediately punished. If it gets shielded, even landing completely on the other side of the stage is not enough distance to keep Ganon from landing a Dash Attack punish. Luigi's aerials are all unsafe on shield against Ganon, even bair, as good timing will let you grab him before his hurtbox retreats again. Many of Ganon's stronger aerials are safe on shield against Luigi, even short hop Dair, because Luigi slides away on shield. This is a big reason why I think the Fireballs aren't as big a deal as stated, as his sliding traction makes jumping over his fireballs for an aerial a much safer option than it would normally be. His sliding works both for him and against him, as it does prevent us from getting at him on shield, but he basically cannot shieldgrab any of Ganon's attacks other than Jab or Dash Attack, and his grab is far worse for us than his fireballs.

One thing that helps Ganon hugely in the matchup is that Flame Choke has guaranteed followups. Missed tech is covered by dtilt, Tech behind is covered by pivot ftilt, tech away is covered by another flame choke or Dash Attack, and tech in place is no gain over missed tech. Those are almost all kill combos out of a command grab. Can't be used at will because of fireballs, but very easy to use as a punish on shield or whiff, and Luigi does possess several severely laggy attacks.

I know it's been done for quite a long time, but I felt like adding my two cents, especially since I've been getting a lot more Luigi experience lately.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing about Luigi's fireball is because Ganondorf is really tall, he also has the option of doing SH Fireballs to really limit how you approach.

Also, if he times his Fireball trap correctly, you cannot Jab out of shield to stop him from grabbing you.

Mario has to commit harder than Luigi to create trap situations from his fireball, and when you see this commitment, you can N-air it on reaction and outprioritize both the fireball and whatever aerial Mario is doing behind it. Luigi has a window where he can be further away from his fireball before dashing up and following behind it with a grab, which is much harder to space against.

He can also confirm KOs out of D-throw with D-throw -> Cyclone.

I have a 30 minute long video of Gungnir playing a lot of matches vs a good Luigi. I recommend watching it. It's winnable for Ganon, but clearly uphill.

 

[JmacAttack]

The thing about Luigi's fireball is because Ganondorf is really tall, he also has the option of doing SH Fireballs to really limit how you approach.

Also, if he times his Fireball trap correctly, you cannot Jab out of shield to stop him from grabbing you.

Mario has to commit harder than Luigi to create trap situations from his fireball, and when you see this commitment, you can N-air it on reaction and outprioritize both the fireball and whatever aerial Mario is doing behind it. Luigi has a window where he can be further away from his fireball before dashing up and following behind it with a grab, which is much harder to space against.

He can also confirm KOs out of D-throw with D-throw -> Cyclone.

I have a 30 minute long video of Gungnir playing a lot of matches vs a good Luigi. I recommend watching it. It's winnable for Ganon, but clearly uphill.

I do love watching Gungnir play. We should invite him to Apex one of these days.

I still contend that it really didn't look like a slanted matchup. Maybe Gungnir just makes it look even because he's so damn good, but it was clear that even though fireballs did make approaches rather annoying, Gungnir could still do it even though they only ever played on Final Destination. If the JP meta had anything other than FD in it, the fireball's effectiveness diminishes significantly. It was clear that Ganondorf can tank percents against Luigi very effectively, while being capable of clean killing Luigi below 100 even without his smash attacks. Even though downthrow to tornado does kill like you said, it still requires the same extreme percents required from downsmash. I saw him get hit by that full combo at 150 several times and survive. I saw him DI out of several others. It often wouldn't kill him until he hit 170%. Even for Ganondorf's tank-like weight, that's pretty damn good.

He also demonstrated exactly what I was saying with short hop fair/dair. He used those several times, knowing he was safe on shield because of Luigi's traction. This improves Ganon's approach options against fireballs, as fair and dair are usually hard read options onstage. He also demonstrated that Ganon also has combos out of downthrow against Luigi, one of which is a kill at ~90%.

Overall, even though Luigi did have the potential for insane 90% combos, Ganondorf could get similarly deadly combos on Luigi, and Ganon's edgeguard superiority was clear. Luigi's 90% combo can also only be done in very specific circumstances where the beginning of the combo has to start at near 0%, and Ganon's DI has to be incorrect. Any higher than 10%, or any rage on Luigi, any good DI from Ganon, and Ganon can escape it partway through and potentially spike punish. Momentum appears extremely important in this matchup, though, as whoever gets the lead first appears to keep it, because both characters can easily kill confirm once the percent is tacked on. For this reason, though, Ganoncide becomes a valuable tool, giving Ganondorf comeback potential on even stock last stock, while Luigi would have to not get hit at all and make a dozen hard reads to come back from a big deficit, as the rage granted to him by high percents make his combos less effective.

 

[JmacAttack]

Represent us well, then.
I'm fairly certain the matchup is dependent on whichever stage is chosen, but in neutral, Yoshi has an easier time not only approaching but preventing Ganon from approaching with his eggs, which is essential to the matchup. Also, Yoshi's double jump properties and his ability to act out of it makes it extremely difficult to land a successful gimp, especially down air (though I hear footstools are lovely this time of year). Yoshi's down air is also a powerful damage racker and can potentially get all the hits in due to Ganondorf's height and size. All in all, Yoshi has an easier time with mobility and damage racking, though I believe the situation can be somewhat remedied by the punishable WizKick, a good option to close distance, though it would be best to use it sparingly.

However, Yoshis can't just recklessly go in, or he'll eat big damage. Any mistake Yoshi makes can be capitalized by Ganon, especially if the stage is BF, in which the platforms offer some protection against eggs and the smaller stage allows for Ganondorf to close in more easily.

Yoshi can't act out of choke, outside of tech, and is vulnerable to ftilt, jab, and down tilt, which is an advantageous thing Ganon has and can be a game decider in high percents.

If Ganondorf actually gets in, his down throw offers many followups dependent on DI such as up air, dash attack, and wizard's foot (low percents only). The only difficulty in this scenario is staying in and closing the stock.

Regretfully, Ganondorf suffers a bit in this matchup, but it's not the end of the world. It's probably 60-40.

EDIT: Due to a situation with the classes and work I have, I won't be able to update until tonight.

I really disagree that Yoshi's eggs are that big of a problem, and I know I do this a lot, but I contend that this matchup is even, not even anywhere near 60:40. I've said in the past that the eggs are easy as hell to powershield, and on Sunday I went to a tournament and faced a Yoshi in friendlies, and again today I went online and fought a decent Yoshi and confirmed that yes, it is extremely easy to powershield the eggs even with online lag. Probably the easiest thing to powershield in the entire game. Yoshi's down-air is overstated, as even though it does lots of damage on hit, and lots of shield damage, it can be fully shielded and punished successfully. Shields regenerate so fast that the shield damage isn't even that significant. Many people see down-air eating their shield away, panic, and go for a poorly timed roll or grab. Keep a cool head and shield it till he lands, and you get a downthrow combo. Yoshi's grab and throw options on Ganon are weak, as Ganon can DI out of any followups at any percent. His down-air does hurt if he gets you with it, but it's also easy to see it coming and shield it accordingly.

Yoshi's frame 3 jab is good, but not that scary. You can grab him out of the second hit on shield if you're quick. You do have to watch out for his downsmash, because it has weird knockback and lingers quite a bit, as well as his down-b, as it is a shield destroyer at the center.

And as for gimping his second jump, I've actually done it from 0% with ftilt -> falling nair, so it's entirely possible.

 

[Xinc]

I really disagree that Yoshi's eggs are that big of a problem, and I know I do this a lot, but I contend that this matchup is even, not even anywhere near 60:40. I've said in the past that the eggs are easy as hell to powershield, and on Sunday I went to a tournament and faced a Yoshi in friendlies, and again today I went online and fought a decent Yoshi and confirmed that yes, it is extremely easy to powershield the eggs even with online lag. Probably the easiest thing to powershield in the entire game. Yoshi's down-air is overstated, as even though it does lots of damage on hit, and lots of shield damage, it can be fully shielded and punished successfully. Shields regenerate so fast that the shield damage isn't even that significant. Many people see down-air eating their shield away, panic, and go for a poorly timed roll or grab. Keep a cool head and shield it till he lands, and you get a downthrow combo. Yoshi's grab and throw options on Ganon are weak, as Ganon can DI out of any followups at any percent. His down-air does hurt if he gets you with it, but it's also easy to see it coming and shield it accordingly.

Yoshi's frame 3 jab is good, but not that scary. You can grab him out of the second hit on shield if you're quick. You do have to watch out for his downsmash, because it has weird knockback and lingers quite a bit, as well as his down-b, as it is a shield destroyer at the center.

And as for gimping his second jump, I've actually done it from 0% with ftilt -> falling nair, so it's entirely possible.

Thank you for reopening the topic.

I understand that power shielding Yoshi's Egg Toss is a great option on the ground, but I meant more or less on the air, where Ganon can be juggled and forced to take a defensive option, which Yoshi can capitalize on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi's Eggs aren't a problem in neutral. The main problem we have in neutral is it can occasionally be hard to react to Yoshi when he gets in range to Jab, and we have to respect that and Egg Lay. It really just comes down to how he has a few small things that are harder to punish in neutral, and when he does get the advantage, he's able to capitalize really hard with his amazing mobility, damage, and projectile.

That being said, I've argued it's 55/45 his favor. Nothing huge, it's not a seriously unfair matchup for Ganon as far as I've seen. We also do a good job of capitalizing on him when we successfully hold our ground. Mostly, it's a matchup where stuff dies really fast.

 

[JmacAttack]

Yoshi's Eggs aren't a problem in neutral. The main problem we have in neutral is it can occasionally be hard to react to Yoshi when he gets in range to Jab, and we have to respect that and Egg Lay. It really just comes down to how he has a few small things that are harder to punish in neutral, and when he does get the advantage, he's able to capitalize really hard with his amazing mobility, damage, and projectile.

That being said, I've argued it's 55/45 his favor. Nothing huge, it's not a seriously unfair matchup for Ganon as far as I've seen. We also do a good job of capitalizing on him when we successfully hold our ground. Mostly, it's a matchup where stuff dies really fast.

Having faced a very good Yoshi on Ladder tonight, I now agree it's 55/45. Yoshi can indeed capitalize on things like missed techs with frightening effectiveness. Battlefield was my safe haven, but he knew it, and after my first win there, he would always ban it immediately. Definitely felt like an uphill battle, but we always reached last stock.

 

[Drexel]

As a Ganon player myself, here's my verdict on Yoshi.

Honestly, I think Yoshi is one of the stronger characters in the game and when Ganon faces a good Yoshi player, it's pretty rough since Yoshi has plenty of ways to rack damage quickly as well as being adaptable to go to camping with the eggs, as well as his high mobility which allows him to pressure very well. However, Yoshi still has one weakness, If you can gain stage control via patience/reads you need to take away Yoshi's second jump while edgeguarding him at or below stage level, (FTilt makes a great setup for this). If you can get Yoshi far enough from the edge in this situation he's a goner. Plus Ganon doesn't really need to land to many attacks to rack up that damage so by fighting careful and eliminating punishable opportunities for Yoshi, it is doable With that said however, I think the overall consensus is right with 55/45 to Yoshi.

 

[Chaostothemax]

I play Ganon mainly, and one of my best friends/closest Smash rivals is a Yoshi main. While he's definitely a better player than me, we've played one another so often that I have a pretty good idea of the matchup. Here's what I've learned:

1. Yoshi's aerials are a pain in the butt. If you try to fight him in the air, you will lose almost every time; his moves are faster than most of yours, and his weird jump gives him great air mobility and makes him harder to read. Many times I've prepared to deal with a Nair, only to get a Bair to the face. On a similar note, unless you know you can meteor smash him, it's not usually a good idea to take him on off-stage.

2. While it doesn't seem that strong, Yoshi's Up-B is surprisingly dangerous. A good Yoshi will use it to protect his recovery, or to open combos. If you shield, he'll dash-grab you; if you let it hit you, he'll follow up with a regular dash attack; if you roll, he'll continue the barrage. It's surprisingly hard for Ganon to beak through.

3. Ganon's core strength, his absurd power, is his best bet against Yoshi. Punish, punish, punish; if he leaves himself open, hit him. Yoshi's heavier than he was previously, but not enough to give Ganon that hard a time.

Those are the three main things I've learned from Ganon vs. Yoshi. Keep in mind that I haven't fought a variety of Yoshi players; this is based on my experience with my friend over the course of the months since Smash was released. Overall, I'd agree with the 55/45 that's been given above, or even a 60/40; it's a very typical matchup you want to use for Ganon, but Yoshi can deal with it better than many characters.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm actually pretty confident that Yoshi is lighter than he was previously.

 

[_Magus_]

I already mentioned picking Battlefield for Flame Choke Platform followups, but I also wanted to mention that Yoshi is very susceptible to combos. Down throw > Dash Attack, Down Throw > Down B, down throw > uair at higher percents, dash attack > uair, and so on. We also have TONS of flame choke followups on him normally, and this is multiplied if we pop him up on a battlefield platform. Yoshi is one of those characters that is fun to play against bc we have so many punishment options vs. him.

 

[JmacAttack]

I already mentioned picking Battlefield for Flame Choke Platform followups, but I also wanted to mention that Yoshi is very susceptible to combos. Down throw > Dash Attack, Down Throw > Down B, down throw > uair at higher percents, dash attack > uair, and so on. We also have TONS of flame choke followups on him normally, and this is multiplied if we pop him up on a battlefield platform. Yoshi is one of those characters that is fun to play against bc we have so many punishment options vs. him.

Exactly why I consider it 55:45 and not 60:40.

 

[Xinc]

I already mentioned picking Battlefield for Flame Choke Platform followups, but I also wanted to mention that Yoshi is very susceptible to combos. Down throw > Dash Attack, Down Throw > Down B, down throw > uair at higher percents, dash attack > uair, and so on. We also have TONS of flame choke followups on him normally, and this is multiplied if we pop him up on a battlefield platform. Yoshi is one of those characters that is fun to play against bc we have so many punishment options vs. him.

Honestly, I feel this is one of those match ups that heavily relies on the stage choice. Ganon can do so much to Yoshi and Yoshi's options are far more severely limited. But I will do my best to continue writing in the neutral.

 

[_Magus_]

Ganon can do so much to Yoshi and Yoshi's options are far more severely limited.

Do you mean on Battlefield?

 

[Xinc]

Do you mean on Battlefield?

Yeah. As opposed to other stages where he needs to work a lot harder.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On stages, Smashville is incredibly boring to play Yoshi against if he abuses the moving platform to camp.

Not really worth a ban imo, but just one of the less preferred stages for this matchup.