Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Xinc]

I have been maining the Dorf since Melee, and consider myself mid-high tier at best in level of play. I would love to see this thread get revitalized due to the pain that I have with Ness and Sonic players. Ness projectile spammers give Ganon's a harder time than others due to the different ways they move, and it feels that Sonic's main combo that every player uses really hurts Ganon as the combo starter is not easily hit by us and can get away in time if it doesn't hit us. The Little Mac and Bowser MU feels like a joke, but that may be just the players themselves, as I have beaten both characters easily online.

Ah, these are more troublesome matchups, according to my knowledge, especially on FD stages. Ness is easier than Sonic, as he is very gimpable. His non projectile attacks get shut down by your ftilt and dtilt, but if you add projectiles into the mix, you'll be wishing for platforms. But overall, I'm of the opinion Ganon beats Ness in the neutral, or at least it's in the even.

Sonics just really hard to approach.

Little Mac and Bowser, I feel, have a disadvantageous matchup. But a player can win through a lot of fakeouts. Mac is definitely one of those. Overall, just do your normal Ganon things and you should be fine.

Like my predecessors before me, I, too, will be rereading all the posts and compiling them. I also will be going in order by character. Which means after Peach would be the aforementioned King Koopa.

@ Vermanubis @ Ray_Kalm I humbly request power to edit the OP. I plan by tomorrow night, I will be posting in a concise but detailed synopsis of the Ganon vs Peach matchup, as well as opening the conversation for the matchup of our fellow villain, King Koopa.

 

[Vermanubis]

Done, fair knight.

 

[Xinc]

Done, fair knight.

Excellent. A blessing upon you and a thousand curses upon our enemies.

 

[Grass]

Ah, these are more troublesome matchups, according to my knowledge, especially on FD stages. Ness is easier than Sonic, as he is very gimpable. His non projectile attacks get shut down by your ftilt and dtilt, but if you add projectiles into the mix, you'll be wishing for platforms. But overall, I'm of the opinion Ganon beats Ness in the neutral, or at least it's in the even.

Sonics just really hard to approach.

Little Mac and Bowser, I feel, have a disadvantageous matchup. But a player can win through a lot of fakeouts. Mac is definitely one of those. Overall, just do your normal Ganon things and you should be fine.

Ness isn't hard to deal with. He has air superiority but not nearly as much as sonic. Just play defensive.
Sonic is not hard to deal with, just be defensive and use those BAirs. Sonic is only a light-weight and thus suffers from getting their ass beat from big power.

Mac is annoying vs. Ganon unless the Mac player is a moron and just spams charge attacks. Since Mac has the power of Ganon and the speed of Sonic. Which makes him extremely annoying to deal with. However, this is once again a good time to mention BE DEFENSIVE. Mac has huge limitations, take advantage of that.

Bowser is by far the easiest of the characters named in this post to deal with. He may be faster and stronger, so play a little defense and offense. Ganon is a great character, and I really love him. But, even with speed buffs, Ganon is still more or less limited in the series.

 

[adom4]

Any tips against Robin?
I just can't get pass his levin aerials, they kill me super early & they're disjointed so i can't trade that much with him.

 

[Grass]

Any tips against Robin?
I just can't get pass his levin aerials, they kill me super early & they're disjointed so i can't trade that much with him.

pfft Robin's easy to get over. Robin may be a heavy but she's stupid easy to get over. If they're trying to spam Levin, stay on the ground and force them to short hop. Roll around a lot to keep yourself from getting Thunder'd. Aside from that just use the same combos you used in melee.

 

[adom4]

pfft Robin's easy to get over. Robin may be a heavy but she's stupid easy to get over. If they're trying to spam Levin, stay on the ground and force them to short hop. Roll around a lot to keep yourself from getting Thunder'd. Aside from that just use the same combos you used in melee.

The one i faced was really good though, did some crazy combos with arcthunder.

 

[Grass]

The one i faced was really good though, did some crazy combos with arcthunder.

arc thunder and arc fire both have amazing frame traps that can lead to combos or just trap you long enough for a good smash attack. Both of these are extremely dangerous (in general). All I can say is dodge these and roll around. That's literally it. lol Ganon doesn't exactly have a lot of options against range.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Robin vs Ganon is pretty much a dodge it all guessing game. Robin should hit you more with chain traps, but he will have a hard time setting up a true kill. Robin plays a lot like Ganon. Baits for the opponent to put up shield and make a mistake, but they do this during your approach, while Ganon does this while approaching.

Figure out and understand how Robin tries to set you up and play patient, and do NOT stay in your shield too much as this is what all Robin players want. Do not sidestep in this match-up at all, it's better to avoid something using another available method. Sidestep will make you lose frame advantage and give Robin a momentum advantage. Use more rolls and predictions instead while approaching. When you're above him in the air, try to recover to the ground as safe as possible. Remember, Ganon does twice as much damage per hit than Robin, so be patient. Get the kills with predictions too, and once he's off stage remember to edgegaurd and kill him as soon as possible. Off stage is where you want him dead, tipman or spike off stage, edgehogging to bair when he grabs to ledge, or if he knows what you're up to and tries avoiding go for reverse ftilt. Scare him when he's offstage so that when he gets back on stage you will make him lose his momentum.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Any thoughts on the Charizard matchup? I feel that Ganon has the edge because he's one of very few characters Zard doesn't want to trade hits with and Ganon can punish Zard's lag really well.(though Zard can do this back to Ganon as well)

 

[Grass]

Any thoughts on the Charizard matchup? I feel that Ganon has the edge because he's one of very few characters Zard doesn't want to trade hits with and Ganon can punish Zard's lag really well.(though Zard can do this back to Ganon as well)

Thanks for answering your own question.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I was playing @san. a lot this week. He told me that Miis are not able to tech Ganon's side B.

This is quite huge. Miis do good against a lot of characters, and if they are not able to tech Ganon's side B, those are very easy damage percentages and kills for Ganon.

 

[Grass]

I was playing @san. a lot this week. He told me that Miis are not able to tech Ganon's side B.

This is quite huge. Miis do good against a lot of characters, and if they are not able to tech Ganon's side B, those are very easy damage percentages and kills for Ganon.

Hahaha wow this just made my night, thanks dude. Thanks lol.

 

[SwineofWar]

Where's the peach resolution and the start of week Bowser?

Been waiting for a while.

 

[Xinc]

It's been too long since we last posted our victim.



WEEK 3: PRINCESS PEACH


Character Description: Princess Peach (Japanese ピーチ姫 Pichi-hime) is a character in Nintendo's Mario franchise. Originally created by game designer Shigeru Miyamoto, Princess Peach is portrayed as the princess of the fictional Mushroom Kingdom, which is constantly under attack by Bowser. She often plays the role of damsel in distress role within the series.


Gerudo Follow Ups (If not Teched): For a full chart of gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Peach dies pretty early from the Flame Choke to DTilt "combo."


How to Deal with Projectiles: Peach's projectiles are turnips, which have been nerfed from Brawl. The pulling time of the turnip takes significantly longer, which makes it more unsafe to pull a turnip when Ganondorf is close enough to punish her. Hence, Ganondorf should do all he can to remain close to Peach.

In the scenario Peach DOES get a turnip out, she can jump cancel throws or jump high and pelt them at you to stop your ground approaches. With a turnip, she could also simply Z-drop the turnip or do other mixups that gives you grief.

Most of your aerials sans Dair can swat away turnips, which helps mitigate this issue.

Understanding the Match-up: Peach is the only character that has great access to mobility through floating, which allows her to be very agile and unpredictable. She can use Quick Float Release, which allows her to pseudo-wavedash and increase her movement options.

Peach has a good air and ground game, which when combined with float, gives Ganondorf trouble in landing a clean hit on her. Her down-throw can lead to combos on Ganondorf, leading up to an forward tilt, and can trap into an up tilt afterward. Peach has superior ground game to yours, and when she is armed with a turnip, things can go south very quickly for Ganondorf. It's best to be passive aggressive; stay close, but not close enough to be hit by any of her moves. Ganondorf is a slow character and lacks movement options, so it is safer to not swing recklessly, which leaves him wide open for a counterattack. Peach can autocancel her moves while floating, such as her fair, which has good knockback and damage, which allows her attacks to be safer.

Peach has a good shield pressure on Ganondorf and can easily frame trap him. If you are stuck in that situation, do what you can to get to safer ground, but not too far away for her to start pulling out turnips, which will make the battle another uphill one.

What Ganondorf can do against Peach is play patiently. Like many other matchups, spacing is crucial. What Ganondorf wants to do is be right outside Peach's Nair range when Peach is grounded, which is her blind spot, and he has several tools just for that, thanks to his long body limbs.

A move that outspaces Peach's nair is Ganon's nair. The double kick from Ganondorf's legs outranges Peach's arms, hitting her while keeping yourself safe. Overall, Nair and Uair are Ganondorf's best tools to fight against Peach.

When Peach is in the air, Ganondorf can give her a hard time with up air, the attack that can safely challenge most of Peach's aerials in the air, outside a perfectly spaced fair. Peach usually goes for the air if she feels you are grounded. Getting Peach up into the air is a powerful method for Ganondorf to rack up damage.

The key to this matchup is to deliver mixups and use your good spacing moves. Moves such as Nair, f-tilt, U-air, D-tilt (on grounded Peach), and Gerudo Flame Choke are great moves to throw Peach off her game and start to gain momentum. Once you have momentum, you can more easily start throwing moves at her. This is especially easy if she doesn't respect your moves. Ganondorf has great long-reaching moves that can spell a disaster for Peach if she doesn't give Ganondorf respect.

Once you have Peach off the stage, be prepared for her to recover from down low. The reason for this is if she recovers high, Ganondorf gets a free up air for her troubles. Bear in mind, Peach's parasol stops your Wizard's Foot and Dair, which makes edgeguarding Peach from recovering from below extremely difficult.


Summary of the Matchup: Peach's excellent air and ground game gives Ganondorf trouble of actually getting in and hitting her, but she is a light character, meaning she dies earlier to most of Ganondorf's stronger attacks at mid-percents, and even earlier when rage effect is taken into consideration.

The problem with Ganondorf blasting Peach into oblivion comes with Peach's float cancel, which gives Peach a lot more mobility than Ganon. She can deliver high shield pressure and good frame traps to Ganon, and with a turnip, she can zone out Ganondorf easily.

She also has a blind spot, which is right outside her nair range, that Ganon can exploit. Peach cannot do anything except to get away, or bait out an attack. A smart Peach has to respect your moves, just as you have to respect her when she's dealing shield damage or zoning you out. Ganondorf has the tools to take care of Peach, but needs to play cautiously.

CM Ratio of the Match-up: 45:55 - SMALL DISADVANTAGE

Ratio of the Match-up: 45-55 - SMALL DISADVANTAGE


Credits: @TTTTTsd @Dark.Pch @ Vermanubis @ Xinc

Thanks for all your input!

For next week, Week 4, we shall analyze Bowser.

 

[_Magus_]

BOWSER TIME!!!!!

My absolute favorite matchup in this game. We have so many followups on like everything. Side b especially.

Let's start with him:

For his zoning, he can try to zone us out with his f tilt and fire breath, but I find wizkick is a good punish, as both have just enough ending lag for me to get there from outside his range. Also, our d tilt can get around f tilt i believe. Need to check that tho.

For his kill options, his f smash is laggy beyond belief, as are his up smash and Bowser Bomb. Down smash comes out faster, but has much less range. I find out of all of these up smash give me the most trouble, though it's quite small. The reason for this is the invincibility on the shell, though if you're careful around him, none of these will give you trouble. I've learned to respect the upsmash when in the air cuz the invincibility beats out wizkick when trying to get down. If you're having trouble with it, a well-placed airdodge should get you down just fine. U smash is too laggy for him to punish an airdodge effectively.
I find it hard for him to kill until higher percents with his faster tilts.

All his tilts are fast. U tilt will juggle you for some solid %, but you have to be right above him or breathing down his neck for him to start a juggle. D tilt comes out fast, but doesn't have as much range as f tilt. F tilt comes out fast and has longer range, but has a fair amount of ending lag, as mentioned earlier.

For aerials, he has three ones with pretty intense landing lag. Fair and uair have less, but the lag is still there. Just be careful about his fair approaches. Typically you can shield a fair and then punish, tho if he spaces them, it can be more dangerous. This is one thing that's hard for us to answer, but baiting and punishing should solve it pretty well.

You can't chase him in the air, as he has two powerful get-down options in his down b and dair. However, you can bait and punish these to your heart's content.

On another note, it's more difficult for him to edgeguard us, with our Ganocide and long ranged get up attack as options.
He can still do a few things that give us trouble, but he's not too big of a threat. Mix up your get-ups and you should be fine.

We have a potent suicide k.o. option, while he does not. He dies first. If he ever side b's you by accident, you're controlling it, and you are at least tied for stocks, STEER HIM TO THE LEDGE!!!! He will die first, just like a Ganocide. The only time you should steer away is if he has a stock lead, in which case you will most often be in control. His suicide option is rarely ever online.

Now for us:

Our main damage racking tool in this MU is side b. He's got a lot of lag for us to hit him with one, and we have several guaranteed followups. If you get one, take it as far as it'll go. Chainchoking is great, hard reads are great. Jab is good for quick damage and mixing up your followups. D tilt is a solid kill option at higher percents. If for some reason you're having trouble getting a smash off, that can clinch the stock pretty easily.

Baiting is the key here. He has a lot of lag, but so do we, so we have to be careful Even though we have the better character, our character still can't play rushdown and be all aggro. Bait, and punish accordingly like you always do.

Our smashes are pretty awesome. Up smash can be used to bait or read a jump, side smash can read a get up from side b, and d smash is d smash. Still almost worthless

For tilts, I believe our d tilt outranges him completely except for fire breath, which isn't safe in that scenario. I'd need to test this tho. F tilt is also good for quick punishes. U tilt can be used to edgegaurd pretty well, as always.

Be careful if he ever has you in the air. His upsmash is invincible on the shell, as mentioned earlier. It beats out down b every time, so just be patient and time an airdodge.

Our aerials and offstage game destroy him. If we ever get him offstage, we're more than well equipped to keep him there. All five of our aerials wreck him. If you can get him off and keep him off, it's almost always a stock. He'll start freaking out, burn his jump, and then eventually not be able to make it. Bair, dair, and fair work quite well if you want to put him out of his misery.

In the end, I find this matchup at least 60:40 in our favor. We can kill him pretty easily with our aerials, smashes, and hard reads from side b. We can also rack up damage EXTREMELY well against him. He doesn't have very much that we don't have an answer for. I'd hate to be bowser in this MU.

EDIT: Whew, that was a LOT. TL;DR Bowser can't really deal with us. Side b ftw. 60:40

 

[Toxicroaker]

As a Bowser secondary, I don't fully agree with that, but I don't have time right now to say why. You can expect a post from me in the near future tho.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just gonna say that Bowser's body is large enough to still get choked if we make a mistake when predicting his rolls after gerudo.

And at low %, choke> jab leaves him close enough for pretty much any follow up you desire

 

[_Magus_]

As a Bowser secondary, I don't fully agree with that, but I don't have time right now to say why. You can expect a post from me in the near future tho.

Of course not. I made a lot of general statements and probably forgot a thing or two. I look forward to seeing what you have to say.

 

[Vermanubis]

Just a preliminary analysis, but I do wanna say that I think Bowser definitely wins over us. We have pretty similar tools, but Bowser can weave far better than we can, he's a lot more mobile, and he can kill us easier than we can him. Of course, we do have things like side-b, juggles that he doesn't have and his massive size so he can't access our blindspots, but his superior mobility and kill power push things in his favor.

 

[Sykkamorre]

The shockwave from Bowser's dair has enough range to prevent grounded punishes if you aren't aware of its strange hitbox.

On the other hand, I think our uair beats all of his options while he's above us.

 

[Vermanubis]

It does for the most part.

Just to show what I mean by superior mobility, here's a match from about two months ago:

Spoiler

I had a really difficult time getting near him. In general, Bowser beats us in neutral, and we subsist off of making the most of his mistakes, and against good Bowsers, the need for us to make ballsy reads far exceeds Bowser's.

 

[Shogger]

I think our best advantage over Bowser is combo potential from his sheer weight, and the way his slowness naturally amplifies any punishes we land. It's easy to land Fsmash on a careless Bowser player. Haven't gone up against any great Bowsers yet though, so my perspective is limited.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The shockwave from Bowser's dair has enough range to prevent grounded punishes if you aren't aware of its strange hitbox.

On the other hand, I think our uair beats all of his options while he's above us.

Ganon's Uair beats Bomb and Dair?

 

[JmacAttack]

Ganon's Uair beats Bomb and Dair?

I know up-smash beats dair for sure, but the timing's tricky. I imagine up-air would beat dair at the very least, if not bomb as well, because Ganon's up-air has a disjointed hitbox.

In any case, bomb and dair are extremely laggy moves, so Bowser won't use them carelessly. He's wide open on the ground unless you're in hitstun when he lands.

I sincerely doubt Bowser has an advantage over Ganon. He has movement speed, but his moves are still very laggy, and because of his large size and weight, Ganon has easy combos on him even at mid to high percent. Wizard's Foot answers Fire Breath cleanly, and none of Ganon's options are off the table against Bowser. Bowser's size makes him especially vulnerable to Flame Choke, even poorly timed ones. His offstage game is also much worse, as his vertical recovery is awful, so he can't safely challenge you if you decide to edgeguard him, which Ganon excels at. He can edgeguard you if you recover high, but if you decide to recover low, there's nothing Bowser can do without self-destructing, and you always have the option to Ganoncide if he gets too greedy. I still think this is an advantageous matchup for Ganon.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's looking advantageous. I'm not sure Bowser can tech Flame Choke. If he can then my Bowser is too slow. But I guess it's all about reading the player's mind.

 

[JmacAttack]

It's looking advantageous. I'm not sure Bowser can tech Flame Choke. If he can then my Bowser is too slow. But I guess it's all about reading the player's mind.

Even if Bowser techs the Flame Choke by rolling away or rolling towards, his tech roll is so short and his body is so massive that he's still not safe. Roll-toward can be blocked by charging an f-smash, which is death for Bowser if it lands. His large size also makes it easy to land f-smashes even if he ends up slightly behind you. This means a flame choke cornering him near the edge is a virtually guaranteed kill. If he uses getup attack, you can follow up with dair or aerial wizard's foot, either of which is death past 125%. Bowser has such a large physical footprint out of tech roll that aerial wizard's foot can be spaced to cover several options at once, as well, moving it out of hard read territory.

UPDATE: I just played against a Bowser that knew how to tech properly, and Bowser can indeed tech the flame choke. Fortunately for us, I also discovered that this doesn't seem to stop a down-tilt follow up from working. He was a cut above the typical Bowser players, but it still reinforced my opinion that Bowser is a good matchup for Ganon. It's not a hard counter matchup by any means, though, so I'd say it's 55:45 in Ganon's favor. Maybe even 60:40 because of all the Flame Choke shenanigans.

 

[Zigsta]

Matt Hazard (dunno if he has a Smashboards account) played a TON on 3DS--haven't had a chance yet on Wii U. Right now I think it's slightly in Ganon's favor, largely because of Flame Choke and Ganon's offstage game. I might not be the best judge of the MU though since even in Brawl I preferred running and Firebreathing so that Ganon wouldn't combo the stuffing out of me.

Also, hello fellow Glendale Smasher!

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser has better footsies, while Ganon has a better punish game. Both characters hit about as hard as each other, but Ganon's moves seem to "flow" into each other more effectively, and Ganon is better at capitalizing on the opponent's disadvantaged state thanks to his superior juggles, edgeguards, and Flame Choke. I'm not super high-level, but I think right now Ganon probably has a slight advantage, though a Bowser that's really good at staying safe could make it even. It's pretty close either way, because even in Ganon's more favorable matchups it's entirely possible to beat him by playing smart and patiently, it's just hard because you have very little margin for error and can't afford to get read.

 

[Z1GMA]

Like with Little Mac, Bowser can only avoid Dtilt after Gerudo by teching towards us.

Also, like in Brawl, if he doesn't tech the choke, a SH Stomp in place covers:
Inroll
Outroll
Rise up
GUA
and if he's just chillin' there,
meaning outroll is his only option.

Landing successful Gerudos on a Bowser means damage, and damage... and damage.

Bowser is one of the easiest characters for us to juggle and combo at lower %'s, and PS > Ftilt will get us kills as well as edgeguard-setups.

However, we have to respect Bowser's strenghts in the MU.
His exellent grab can give us a lot of trouble, and smart usage of Fire Breath can rack up safe damage on us.
Ganon is a big target himself, and he doesn't want to suffer max damage from Bowser's Nair.
If we get hit by his Dtilt at high %, we're pretty much done for.

50:50

 

[JmacAttack]

Like with Little Mac, Bowser can only avoid Dtilt after Gerudo by teching towards us.

Also, like in Brawl, if he doesn't tech the choke, a SH Stomp in place covers:
Inroll
Outroll
Rise up
GUA
and if he's just chillin' there,
meaning outroll is his only option.

Landing successful Gerudos on a Bowser means damage, and damage... and damage.

Bowser is one of the easiest characters for us to juggle and combo at lower %'s, and PS > Ftilt will get us kills as well as edgeguard-setups.

However, we have to respect Bowser's strenghts in the MU.
His exellent grab can give us a lot of trouble, and smart usage of Fire Breath can rack up safe damage on us.
Ganon is a big target himself, and he doesn't want to suffer max damage from Bowser's Nair.
If we get hit by his Dtilt at high %, we're pretty much done for.

50:50

Bowser does have a very damaging command grab, but Ganon rarely needs to put himself in a position where Bowser would land it. Ganon plays a defensive spacing game by default on the ground, which means Bowser leaves himself wide open to jabs and tilts if he tries to use it on the ground. It does give him an aerial approach option, but Ganon's nair covers it. Ganon has greater range on all tilts and aerials, and even though Bowser's tilts kill us at high percent, our tilts have very slightly longer range, and kill him at high percents too. F-tilt that doesn't completely kill Bowser off the side can set up an edgeguard situation, which is advantageous for Ganon, and may result in a kill anyway.

Bowser's Nair has extremely short range. To get hit by all the hits, Ganon would need to be inside Bowser, which has never happened to me, and shouldn't happen in the matchup. Ganon's nair is even stronger than Bowser's if all hits connect, and for Bowser to put himself in a position to land all the hits of his nair, Ganon would be in a similar position to land both of his, and more easily at that. It's hard for Bowser to set this up against Ganon safely, especially since Bowser jumping into the air against Ganon is an invitation to an aerial Wizard Foot, which is a potential kill at mid to high percents. Wizard Foot is such a strong option against Bowser when Bowser is in the air below Ganon that it gives Ganon air superiority even if he's the one getting launched. This forces Bowser to rely on ground based reads in order to juggle Ganon, which Ganon can cover with Flame Choke before even hitting the ground, or fastfall into shield if this is unsafe. Bowser's only answer to Wizard Foot while both are in the air is to read it with an airdodge, quickly fastfall, and do something before the landing lag is over.

Admittedly, aerial Wizard Foot is a ridiculously stupid option if Bowser is grounded, as he can answer with a deadly smash attack (which are slow, but kill Ganon at ~60%), and it is not an option while both are offstage unless you are very high above the stage, but this is one matchup where our normally crappy up-B actually has a use against Bowser's offstage game, as it latches on from a great distance away, farther than any of Bowser's aerials can hit from. This completely shuts down Bowser's edgeguard game and gives us more distance to recover from if he attempts one.

The fact that Bowser does still have powerful options in this matchup means it's not a hard counter by any means, but since Ganon is not restricted from using any of his options, even gaining new ones he doesn't normally have, while Bowser IS restricted from using several of his options, and must be more cautious when choosing his approach, it's advantage Ganon.

55:45

 

[JmacAttack]

Matt Hazard (dunno if he has a Smashboards account) played a TON on 3DS--haven't had a chance yet on Wii U. Right now I think it's slightly in Ganon's favor, largely because of Flame Choke and Ganon's offstage game. I might not be the best judge of the MU though since even in Brawl I preferred running and Firebreathing so that Ganon wouldn't combo the stuffing out of me.

Also, hello fellow Glendale Smasher!

Eyyy!

In Smash4, running and fire-breathing sets you up to eat a grounded Wizard Foot because of fire breath's significant endlag, and Wizard Foot's priority over fire breath. This doesn't have combo options because of Wizard Foot's own endlag, and it is less damaging than eating a tilt, but it can knock you slightly offstage and set up an edgeguard situation at mid percent, which is not a good position for Bowser. I've seen Bowsers try to cover my edgeguard game by using Up-B into me and onto the stage, but if the final, launching hit doesn't land, Bowser's in danger of eating a forward smash when he lands due to Whirling Fortress' significant landing lag.

 

[Z1GMA]

In case you thought I was talking about Bowser's side+B, I wasn't.
It's his normal grab that is dangerous for Ganon.

 

[JmacAttack]

In case you thought I was talking about Bowser's side+B, I wasn't.
It's his normal grab that is dangerous for Ganon.

Is it? Can you explain?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is it? Can you explain?

Probably because when Bowser Dash Grabs he will lunge forward and the fact his Pivot Grab range is ridiculous.

 

[Z1GMA]

What Magius said, and spacing aerials at his sheild is not as safe as VS many other characters.
He can also run in under us and shieldgrab us effectively with that speed and range.
Not to speak about him powershielding>grabbing us in many scenarios.
Ganon has a good couple ways to get around this, but when he doesn't, Bowser punish us harder than many characters.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I was going to give you guys a large-ish post, but I wasn't able to get together with a friend of mine that plays Bowser, and I can't play anyone else because I don't have good internet where I'm at.
However, one thing you are forgetting (or just weren't aware of) is that bowser can short hop auto cancel bair. It has a lot of range, and a lot of power. If spaced right, it should be a bit tough to punish. It will also cover above and below the lower platforms of battlefield. It may not be a game changer, but it's something to think about.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well same goes for Ganondorf since a short hop Bair or Uair can fake an opponent out and set them up for a Flame Choke. And probably make them say "Really now?"

 

[B!squick]

I doubt Wiz Kick is fast enough to capitalize on a properly spaced Firebreath (could be wrong though) which is probably a great way to deter Flame Chokes. I'm not sure how tight the timing is, but I'm fairly sure it will take a good read to respond in time. It's a moot point either way as I'll elaborate on with my third point below.

Here's what I do know for sure:
- Bowser's arms are invincible during attacks that use them. Jab specifically is the fastest of these and will probably be the one you'll need to watch out for.
- USmash is amazing for reasons that have already been stated. It has a landing hitbox, so don't assume you're safe if you AD into him. Be airborne around Bowser at your own risk.
- Fortress OoS beats just about anything. Except SideB obviously which is answered by NeutralB which is answered by DownB which is answered by UpB OoS. The neutral game of his match-up is about as Rock-Paper-Seizors as you can get.
- Bowser's pivot grab is disgusting and something to keep in mind when you try ADing those USmashes.
- Grounded SideB hits on frame 17 but frame 8 if done in the air and has no additional lag upon landing.

That's about it for Bowser's positives in this match-up, at least as far as things that haven't been said or were important enough to repeat.

But Bowser has a fairly specific weakness. Beyond the obvious that is (Flame Choke, off stage, Klaw's microscopic hitbox). And that's his face. His arms may be intangible during Jabs and Tilts, but he leans pretty far into them.

It's a pretty even match-up all things considered. It's one of those 'whoever screws up first loses' match-ups. Kinda wanna say Ganon has the edge slightly, but if Vermanubis says it's in Bowser's favor, who am I to disagree?

 

[JmacAttack]

I fought a decent Bowser for two hours straight before making all my claims. I found that unless I waited until he stopped using Fire Breath at all before I even began to use Wizard Foot, he would not have enough time to shield it, even if I'm in range of it and being hit (but not locked in Hitstun).