Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Scraptor]

Now that customs are legal should we go back and evaluate how some of the customs change that match up if at all? I ask only because I am just now getting into even worrying about them from I need to know who does what perspective.

 

[Z1GMA]

I haven't faced that many good Bowser Juniors, so I should probably sit this one out, but I feel it's even or a bit in Ganon's favour.
50 - 50 or up to 58 - 42

 

[BJN39]

Hello Ganons! The Zelda boards have started on discussion of the Ganon MU, and we'd love to get input from y'all! Please consider dropping by and not kidnapping us giving some input. ^^

Click Zelda to teleport right to our MU thread!

 

[Xinc]

Now that customs are legal should we go back and evaluate how some of the customs change that match up if at all? I ask only because I am just now getting into even worrying about them from I need to know who does what perspective.

Indeed. There are two ways we can do this: Continue with what we're currently doing and add the earlier characters afterwards, or during (though that'll be a bit more messy)

Hello Ganons! The Zelda boards have started on discussion of the Ganon MU, and we'd love to get input from y'all! Please consider dropping by and not kidnapping us giving some input. ^^

Click Zelda to teleport right to our MU thread!

I'll drop by in a bit and explain how come Ganondorf should be able to kidnap the Princess for her Triforce of Wisdom.

 

[Opana]

I haven't faced any either but I'd probably agree on even. I usually have a hard time getting in, largely due to lag, although a full hop air dodge can successfully grab a MechaKoopa off the ground while dodging the canon. They can be a bit tricky to edge guard due to how flexible their recovery is but I think with more experience I could guard them pretty easy. They have a pretty great offstage game in all their aerials except maybe uair, and safer options in the MK and Canon. From what I see we have a better ground game and grab game, more reliable kill moves, and better edge guarding. They have a better recovery, better approach as the MK can travel ahead of their dash, and can camp us somewhat effectively. Camping isn't new to most and it's not the best so we should be able to overcome that, and in all honesty I don't think a skilled Jr would approach us. They have a quick poke in ftilt but I think our dtilt out ranges and potentially out speeds them.

Also something interesting to note, I pressed back to let go of the ledge when a MechaKoopa approached then used an instant throw(Air dodge to grab it cancelled immediately with a throw.). I think this could see use vs. ROB too.

 

[Blobface]

Now that customs are legal should we go back and evaluate how some of the customs change that match up if at all? I ask only because I am just now getting into even worrying about them from I need to know who does what perspective.

Most shouldn't change too much, except for Rosalina who might be as good as 50:50 due to Dark Fists countering her aerials and Dropkick making him very difficult to gimp.

 

[adom4]

Most shouldn't change too much, except for Rosalina who might be as good as 50:50 due to Dark Fists countering her aerials and Dropkick making him very difficult to gimp.

Dropkick & Dark fists are amazing against Luigi, Dropkick is the most reliable way to get past his fireballs\iceballs because it goes through them & Dark fists is deadly if he mispaces one aerial due to his bad range.

 

[JmacAttack]

Most shouldn't change too much, except for Rosalina who might be as good as 50:50 due to Dark Fists countering her aerials and Dropkick making him very difficult to gimp.

That and Flame Chain not being f***ing useless in the matchup the way Choke is.

 

[Xinc]

Good thing I didn't submit it yet. Thanks for the addition, guys!

 

[_Magus_]

I'd say Jr. is a 55:45 for us. Both the cannon and the MK are very leggy, and easily dealt with. Just like with ROB and Diddy, your item play is important in this matchup. One tidbit I picked up from the Bowser Jr. boards was that the MK timer is actually reset upon the MK being grabbed.

Mundane fact #2: The timer on the mechakoopa will reset upon being grabbed

This is an important thing to remember. Don't be afraid to pick up that ticking time bomb and throw it back. Also, since Jr. can't put out another mechakoopa while one is already out, it's a good idea to hang onto that Mechakoopa for as long as possible and then throw it back, as this limits his stage control, which is one of his biggest assets.

Also, Jr. is a big target. Not only do we have d tilt out of choke on him, we also have f tilt and jab. I love jab and f tilt as damage rackers out of choke bc they keep d tilt fresh if I need it to kill with in a pinch. Also, he's a heavier target, which means he has to sit in our d throw combos for longer.

One thing to watch out for against a good Jr. is the hit canceled Dair. If Jr. gets the last hit of his dair to connect with a hurt box, he suffers no lag upon landing, giving him some good combo options. However, the Dair is a huge commitment, as a missed hit cancel will mean he suffers a fair amount of lag. So rolling out of the Dair's way as it's coming is not a bad idea. Play the Matador and bait the dair to set up punishes for yourself.

Overall, his range is lacking compared to ours. We also outdo him in kill power, but don't think he's incapable of killing you.

On the edge, he's very vulnerable. Once his invincibility goes away, he's vulnerable to edge pokes like our D tilt as his head pokes over the top of the edge. Also, once the hitbox on his ledge getup attack hits the ground, the hitbox immediately goes away. Several times as Jiggs I have been able to run up, shield his get up attack, and then jump OOS > rest with no trouble. The same principle applies to his D smash. Once the wrecking balls hit the floor, it's go time. Get in there and do some damage.

One area we could have trouble is in gimping him. Bc of his hammer during his up b, we have to be more cautious offstage against him. However, we can still find ways to work in some gimps. It's just more difficult, so be careful.

Anyway, that's about the extent of my knowledge on this MU. Hopefully we can play more competitive Jr.s and gather more info.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I seem to be the only person here who thinks the Jr. matchup is slightly out of Ganon's favor...then again @V1cegrip is better than me.

If any of you know why Sonic is a difficult matchup, it's really not that much different. Yeah, he's a bit easier to edgeguard, and his grab game isn't as strong as Sonic's. However he's still pretty difficult to space against given Kart lets him close the gap pretty easily, and if he backs it with a Mechakoopa and mixes up jump cancels in between, he has a lot of options to force you on the defensive.

Also his combo game is really good. U-air juggles do pretty massive damage, and he can combo Kart -> Up-B Hammer at KO percents. Not to mention if he hits you with a Mechakoopa offstage, you probably aren't coming back either.

 

[JmacAttack]

I seem to be the only person here who thinks the Jr. matchup is slightly out of Ganon's favor...then again @V1cegrip is better than me.

If any of you know why Sonic is a difficult matchup, it's really not that much different. Yeah, he's a bit easier to edgeguard, and his grab game isn't as strong as Sonic's. However he's still pretty difficult to space against given Kart lets him close the gap pretty easily, and if he backs it with a Mechakoopa and mixes up jump cancels in between, he has a lot of options to force you on the defensive.

Also his combo game is really good. U-air juggles do pretty massive damage, and he can combo Kart -> Up-B Hammer at KO percents. Not to mention if he hits you with a Mechakoopa offstage, you probably aren't coming back either.

This looks like how I used to view the matchup before I realized Kart isn't nearly as bad as it looks.

Kart can take some getting used to, for sure, but he can't afford to use it the way Sonic does, or he'll get torn apart in this matchup by someone who knows its weaknesses. Kart is a good mixup tool, but it is a very, very bad approach if someone sees it coming. The reason for this is, jumping up and using down-air in place covers all his options that don't involve a last minute jump-in aerial, and angled-up Fsmash covers every Kart option he has except for a last second spin-out. Plus, if you shield it, Junior can't just slip away without consequence because he is big and slow. He might up-B when he sees it hit your shield, but the answer to this is to just keep holding shield.

You know about the Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer. This already puts you in a good position, because you know he's going to charge straight at you, not spin-out, and not jump. F-smash him in the face. This works even if he opts to jump right before instead of running into you. He better not be at kill percent either (which is like 70 for us), or he dies.

Mechakoopas have a limit to how far they can travel, only one can be out at a time, and they can be picked up. You can use this to your advantage if he tries to cover his kart approach with them. Once he uses the Kart, he has committed, and the point where you see it is where you must have an answer ready, and if you don't, let it hit your shield and see if he has a favorite pattern with it. Patience is key in this matchup, even moreso than it usually is, because his wall of options is difficult to breach, but once you get in, Ganon has good combos on him too, and when he gets pushed on the defensive, his options for getting out can backfire and extend our combo.

 

[Blobface]

http://smashboards.com/threads/bows...e-you-to-learn-side-b-2.377021/#post-18915277
This is likely going to be important for this matchup. I personally don't know much about Jr., so I can't say anything at present.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My experience against ViceGrip is that while picking up the Mechakoopa helps establish some stage control, I typically have to make a hard read to punish him for switching between spacing with his disjointed aerials (which linger, meaning I can't power through them with N-air conventionally), or baiting with the leanback on Kart. Keeping in mind that Jr's DPS is one of the highest in the game overall, so when he does land the Kart, the reward is really massive.

Kart cancel baits force Ganon to shield or preeemtively throw out a move in midrange. While you can consistently punish this with Wizkick (which sails over the Mechakoopa), this requires you to have about a third of FD's length available to be viable, and furthermore hinges on him actually committing to Kart at that specific distance. Basically, Ganon does not have a clear answer to punish this when in contrast Jr does this just outside of DA range, and this gets harder to defend against when he has a Mechakoopa up at this spacing where picking up the Mechakoopa gets punished, which means you are forced to shield and guess which side Jr ends up on. This mixup is especially strong if you are near the ledge where you have to deal with the Mechakoopa approaching past your shield twice.

The Kart mixups while Jr recovers also make him deceptively hard to juggle, and also give him the option to do under stage recoveries, meaning you want to pick Omega stages with walls against him.

Another thing that really can't be understated is Jr's massive reward. He has some of the best ledge trap options in the game between the zoning potential from Mechakoopa and his lingering U-smash which beats ledge getup options in his sleep. His disjointed edgeguards with aerials and Mechakoopa are also really dangerous against Ganon's recovery, which he can't simply defend against with U-air like he can in several other matchups.

I just get the general impression that Ganondorf is forced to respect and guess against more things from Jr than the other way around, and Jr ultimately closes out stocks more easily than Ganon does.

 

[Blobface]

Could Dark Fists be used off a read if you know he's going to do an aerial?

 

[mgleed]

I don't know if there's a better place for this, as I didn't think it deserved its own thread--but here's something I discovered today playing vs. Mewtwo, which I think most will want to be aware of for that matchup:

 

[Blobface]

I don't know if there's a better place for this, as I didn't think it deserved its own thread--but here's something I discovered today playing vs. Mewtwo, which I think most will want to be aware of for that matchup:

You used a D-tilt just as he used confusion, so it's likely he hit your leg.

 

[mgleed]

You used a D-tilt just as he used confusion, so it's likely he hit your leg.

For sure, I just wanted to point out that the confusion hitbox can pick you up at long range from even the first couple frames of d-tilt. Thus it seems that confusion is a good move to limit typical spacing options a bit (e.g. f-tilt, d-tilt, etc.)

 

[Xinc]

Could Dark Fists be used off a read if you know he's going to do an aerial?

I believe so. I don't think Jr's aerials can interrupt Dark Fist's super armor and he isn't heavy enough not to get caught from the first hit that leads to the second. Kapow.

Edit: I really, really apologize this is taking so long. Though the fact we're coming up with more stuff for B Jr helps alleviate this. I'll do everything in my power to have this in by Friday night.

 

[Z1GMA]

I've played a bit more B.Jr now, and I feel Ganon has more tools that can wreck B.Jr than vice versa.
55 : 45

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree with Z1GMA.

In a short summary; Jr's moves are predictable and can be dealt with. Hitting Jr's body deals more damage than hitting the cart, and hitting the cart deals less than normal. The cart damage null isn't too bad for Ganon as Ganon's already heavy input makes up for it. Hitting Jr. allows massive damage, couple that with his already big size, makes it better.

 

[Xinc]

Thank you for continuing the discussion. I think what we've got is invaluable information!

 

[Xinc]

Thoughts about custom matchup? I'm viewing it 60-40 Ganon. His tools seem more relevant to use that Jr's. Thoughts?

 

[JmacAttack]

After seeing all the koopa drift tech he might have, I'd say it might be 55-45 rather than 60-40, but I have no idea. It might even be 50-50. Any edge he might gain from the custom cannons or mechakoopas is negligible because of dropkick, but koopa drift is a wild card. It allows for mixups on his approach and combo game, which is something he didn't have in this matchup before.

Still, I have no idea how it actually affects the matchup. I've never faced a Junior who used customs. If he opts to use all defaults, which is very common, then absolutely 60-40. Otherwise, I can't say. For all I know, it might get straight beaten out by Flame Choke and I'm assuming the worst for nothing.

I am referring to this, by the way:

http://smashboards.com/threads/bows...e-you-to-learn-side-b-2.377021/#post-18915277
This is likely going to be important for this matchup. I personally don't know much about Jr., so I can't say anything at present.

 

[Sucumbio]

First I want to thank those who submitted strategies on Bowser Jr. Has helped me a great deal.

2nd did we already discuss jiggs? I've seen some mention off hand but nothing terribly formidable. I only ask bc I find myself struggling hard with this mu. Like 80:20 jp, and that's gotta be me just not doing what needs to be done. Offstage seems to be the hardest place against jp, but then again anything that combos into rest seems to be easier pull off on ganondorf, but again my experience against jp isn't great, or rather is totally misinformed resulting in always being at least a stock behind.

 

[A2ZOMG]

First I want to thank those who submitted strategies on Bowser Jr. Has helped me a great deal.

2nd did we already discuss jiggs? I've seen some mention off hand but nothing terribly formidable. I only ask bc I find myself struggling hard with this mu. Like 80:20 jp, and that's gotta be me just not doing what needs to be done. Offstage seems to be the hardest place against jp, but then again anything that combos into rest seems to be easier pull off on ganondorf, but again my experience against jp isn't great, or rather is totally misinformed resulting in always being at least a stock behind.

*snip from how to beat characters that Ganondorf clearly outranges that also can't projectile zone him effectively*

N-air and D-tilt a lot. It will make your life a lot easier. Eventually she will try to start running in to shieldgrab, which you can punish either with U-smash or Flame Choke.

This matchup is even mostly because Jigglypuff has good edgeguards on Ganon, but neutral is in Ganon's favor as long as you know the correct responses. I see a lot of Ganon players struggle in this matchup a lot more than they should when Ganon's N-air covers so many options in this matchup and lets you wall Jiggs aerials without leaving yourself noticeably vulnerable to her ground game.

 

[JmacAttack]

*snip from how to beat characters that Ganondorf clearly outranges that also can't projectile zone him effectively*

N-air and D-tilt a lot. It will make your life a lot easier. Eventually she will try to start running in to shieldgrab, which you can punish either with U-smash or Flame Choke.

This matchup is even mostly because Jigglypuff has good edgeguards on Ganon, but neutral is in Ganon's favor as long as you know the correct responses. I see a lot of Ganon players struggle in this matchup a lot more than they should when Ganon's N-air covers so many options in this matchup and lets you wall Jiggs aerials without leaving yourself noticeably vulnerable to her ground game.

I noticed this too, and I did manage to shut up some fools at a tournament who said the Jiggs matchup is really bad for Ganon by doing this. With customs, it's easily in Ganon's favor, especially since Ganon gains protections against Jiggs' easy gimp potential, and Jiggs' customs are all laughably bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

People might believe the Jiggs matchup is hard partly because it actually was really awful in Brawl, but the engine changes drastically balance the matchup. In Brawl, Ganondorf had virtually no punish to Jiggs fastfall airdodging to the ground due to her brokenly small size while landing. N-air hit slightly higher and did less damage and had more landing lag. Furthermore it was even easier for Jigglypuff to kill Ganondorf when edgehogging was a thing and aidodging offstage was much worse, and stale moves also neutered a lot of Ganon's kill potential in Brawl without Rage to compensate.

Jiggs has one potentially good custom in Leaping Rest which she can combo into for KO confirms, but yeah. Not getting gimped by running Dark Fists and WDK I believe swings the matchup to about 6/4 Ganon. Ganon doesn't really use Wizkick much to zone against Jiggs, so the recovery boost from WDK costs virtually nothing.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Puff just doesn't feel like a problem. I know gimps and Rest are scary enough to force me to always play respectfully, but other than that I feel like Puff is so frail and you outrange her, so really just playing patiently and spacing well is generally enough to win. It's not that Puff isn't dangerous, it's just that you've got all the tools you need to beat her and there isn't much you need to do against her that isn't standard for opponents who can't outcamp or outprioritize you. Customs definitely shift things into Ganon's favor, as, like G&W, Puff dies to a stiff wind and can't really keep up if she can't gimp you.

 

[Xinc]

Alright, apologies for taking so long. Had a lot of thesis project research but was chipping in smash along the way.

Will update tomorrow before my flight.

 

[Xinc]

Character Description: Bowser Jr., or simply "Jr." as he was only referred to originally in his debut appearance, is Bowser's son, the Koopa King's heir to the throne, and as such he is the secondary antagonist in the Mario series. Bowser Jr. first appeared in Super Mario Sunshine, and has since then helped his father to kidnap Princess Peach and battle Mario and Luigi in many subsequent games. Bowser Jr. wants nothing more than to do his father's evil will, and Bowser's rarely seen emotional side is often brought out by his interactions with his son.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Bowser Jr is a character with a wide hitbox. The choke, if untouched, will lead to jab, down tilt, and forward tilt. He is fairly heavy and has a fair horizontal recovery with his bike, so down tilt at higher percents will seal the stock.

He's also a fairly large character, which means he takes a longer time to hit the ground. The larger frame allows for a bigger opportunity to follow up upon reaction. Tech back roll could lead to another choke or down air, while tech away could be punished by Wizard's Foot or run forward Flame Choke. Overall, Bowser Jr. has bad options out of choke.


How to Deal with Projectiles: Cannonball and MechaKoopa are extremely slow projectiles that can be easily avoided. Ganon can shield, roll past, and dodge. With customs on, Wizard's Dropkick also goes above both projectiles. These projectiles are not safe to use against Ganon, as they do not hinder him.

Cannonball can be easily dodged due to its slow movement. Also, if Ganon grabs MechaKoopa, he establishes stage control. Not only can Jr not spawn another MechKoopa, but the timer resets upon picking it up. This will limit Jr's stage control, something he is prominent at due to MechaKoopas.



Understanding the Matchup:

First, Bowser Jr. (now henceforth referred to as Jr.) has a large body frame, making it easier for Ganon to hit. But he is also quite heavy, meaning that it will take some effort to kill him off the top. It's important to note that hitting Jr. (not the car) deals more damage than hitting the car itself. Despite Jr's projectiles, up close, Ganon has the advantage due to wider hitboxes that Jr. lacks. Instead, his long range moves have a lot of lag, making it far easier for Ganon to punish.

However, Ganon needs to respect Jr's disjointed hitboxes. Dash attack has a large disjointed hitbox, but can be punished with a forward tilt or grab. Jr's up smash has a lot of range as well. However, shielding the attack will push Ganon back, but enough to safely use a down tilt while Jr is doing the handstand animation. Jr's down smash is the same. It has a lot of range, but if Ganon shields it, he can safely counter with an Out of Shield Forward Smash. Jr's Forward Smash, however, is a multi-hit move that has a small amount of range in front of him. The last hit deals the most damage and knock back, meaning Ganon should respect it. Jr also has a fair with a lot of range and is long lasting, so Ganon should take caution and not approach recklessly. Jr's car also acts as a projectile. If Ganon hits Jr's car, the damage will be slightly reduced. In addition, Jr's Up-B car projectile is a powerful projectile with good range and damage.

As with most match ups, Ganon's Flame Choke is amongst his best moves against Jr. Not only does Jr have a large mass, which allows follow ups of down tilt, jab, and forward tilt, but Ganon also has options that he can execute upon reaction on Jr's tech rolls. Examples of these are Wizard's Kick to tech away, down tilt to tech in place, and down air to tech in place, regular get up attack, and tech behind. The sheer number of moves Jr is vulnerable to after Flame Choke allows Ganon to be creative and not have to worry about a stale down tilt.

On the edge, Jr. is very vulnerable, especially to down tilt. His head pokes a little above the ledge, meaning down tilt will be able to poke Jr. In addition, once his ledge get up attack is finished, the hitbox is immediately over. It does not linger like other characters' meaning that Jr. can get grabbed or hit immediately if Ganon shields his ledge get up attack.

If Ganon anticipates and respect Jr's possible moves, then it shouldn't be difficult to avoid being killed, since Jr's kill moves are often telegraphed (Up-B/ Up-B to fair/Side smash). However, Ganondorf should be wary of Jr in the air since he has good control, especially with the Kart. In addition, Jr can cancel all aerial lag if he can land the last hit of his down air.

This doesn't mean Ganon can just simply walk over Jr. Jr has a fairly good recovery game, which makes it difficult to gimp. Jr. is able to swing his hammer after his Up-B, meaning he can intercept Ganon's attack. In addition, the Kart offers good horizontal recovery, especially the second side b custom, Koopa Drift, which offers him more horizontal recovery. Furthermore, Jr can do under the stage recoveries, ensuring some safety. Picking a stage with walls such as an Omega stage may prove beneficial. It also offers him a lot of aerial mobility, which can be very problematic for Ganon if he tries to approach.

Jr. also has good Kart options, such as Kart canceling, which can force Ganon to dodge or shield it, but be punished. Kart mixups when Jr's recovering make it also quite difficult to juggle Jr. Jr can also do Kart>Up-B>Hammer, but that can also be very obvious since he is charging at Ganon. However, when the Kart is grounded, it is susceptible to attacks, such as Ganon's Forward Smash.

If offstage, be careful of Jr's options. Jr. has good ledge trap options. Up Smash lasts for a long period of time, which can punishes when they are recovering from the ledge. Combined with the MechaKoopa projectile, Ganondorf should be cautious and search for any mistakes Jr. may make. Jr. also has disjointed attack in his aerial moves, which combined with his projectile game, forces Ganon to be a bit more cautious with his approach against Jr.



Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards , and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it mitigates Ganondorf's below average recovery. Second off, it can protect Ganondorf from juggles. It is also fairly decent at interrupting Wario's aerial game. But it is 4 frame slower than regular Wizard's Foot and is weaker. The aerial variant also does not provide the meteor smash the aerial Wizard's Foot provides. Hence, Ganondorf loses an offensive option, but becomes less susceptible to projectiles (especially the projectiles BJJ is close to). But it leaps over Jr's projectiles, making it a reliable rushdown move.



Short Summary of Matchup:

Overall, Ganon has a slight advantage over Jr due to larger range and easier kill moves. Jr's kill moves are extremely telegraphed, so it is far easier to avoid. Flame Choke, Ganon's best move, opens a lot of options that can keep the infamous Choke to down tilt combo fresh. On the stage, Ganon has to close in the distance by avoiding Jr's projectiles and Kart shenanigans. Once Ganon gets in, Jr receives a lot of pressure. However, Jr has very good recovery, so it will be difficult for Ganon to kill Jr that early.

Jr. and Ganon are both heavyweights (though Jr is lighter), which means barring gimps, both shouldn't die that early. Jr has a special mechanic in which hitting the kart deals less damage, while hitting Jr deals more damage. This is important if one needs to decide his possible options when faced against Jr. Jr has a lot of flexibility in the air as well, with access to the Kart, which can lead to many shenanigans that give Ganon some trouble if he juggles Ganon into the air. However, on the ground, Ganon tends to have more of an edge, as BJJ's projectiles are easy to avoid, thus he can avoid them and can get close. Ganondorf can also attack Jr with more moves at a farther due to his large range.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: 60-40


Ratio of the Matchup: 55-45



Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @ JmacAttack @TriTails @ Blobface @ Opana @ Z1GMA @ Ray_Kalm @ Sucumbio @ HeavyLobster @ _Magus_



FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING DONKEY KONG

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think vs DK is basically even on default settings. Both have decent early combos on each other and get great reward for juggling and edgeguarding in this matchup.

Some matchup specific things:

His Down-B and SideB eat shields, however both of these are easily countered by N-airing. Just in general N-air is amazing in this matchup due to how tall DK is and due to the air control it gives you.

DK's safest way of recovery in several matchups is baiting out edgeguard attempts from a long distance and then Up-Bing to reach the ledge. Be ready to predict this and intercept him with U-air as appropriate. Given his vertical recovery is not so strong, you can easily cover many of his options offstage with both U-air and N-air. If DK only has one recovery option due to being F-tilted offstage, then of course feel free to spike/F-air him.

DK leans back a bit when doing Giant Punch. Be careful of this when you try to zone him.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Although I've only played a few matches against decent DK's, I can safely say that ftilt and nair are godlike in this MU.

Nair as A2 so rightly pointed out helps us dominate the air, whilst ftilt is probably the go-to KO move. Even if it doesn't kill, the horizontal knockback leaves DK with few options for recovery, letting us go to town on him offstage.

 

[Opana]

I'd say 60:40 us, his recovery can be easily daird, nair beats him out in the air, choke while not having a guaranteed follow up(?) can be used pretty well imo due to his large frame, and from my experience DK has poor landing options which we can exploit rather easily.

 

[adom4]

I'd say 60:40 us, his recovery can be easily daird, nair beats him out in the air, choke while not having a guaranteed follow up(?) can be used pretty well imo due to his large frame, and from my experience DK has poor landing options which we can exploit rather easily.

There's a Jab follow up after an unteched choke.
EDIT: Also we need to figure out how to deal with Kong cyclone, flame choke seems to be a bit to slow to grab him midair & it can go bad quickly with that ridiculous windbox.

 

[Blobface]

I have a fairly good idea about what Kong Cyclone's limits are, but I have yet to fight a DK using Kong Cyclone, so I won't say anything about what Ganon can do against yet. @ Vermanubis has fought a DK using Kong Cyclone in a tournament before, so we'll see what he has to say about it.

 

[Sucumbio]

I agree choke - > dtilt/ftilt is excellent at low percent. Nair is boss, not sure why ppl insist it's a weak option (according to non ganon users) but that's our ace in the hole.

 

[Big O]

I feel like DK vs Ganon is pretty even, but DK has a slight advantage overall. I'd say it's a 55:45 in DK's favor (Customs off).

What it really boils down to when I play the MU as DK is that I rely on beating you through footsies and try to extend the neutral game as long as possible. I feel that when you stick to the footsie game, DK just outshines Ganon.

DK has better reach and mobility than Ganon, so he has the tools necessary for attempting a footsie based game. DK can beat any SH approach cleanly with Ftilt/Utilt and can outspace Ganon's ground game with Down B and Giant Punch. Ganon's size makes Bair even better as a spacing tool as well.

DK has an easier time approaching than Ganon. Ganon has two command grabs for breaking down defenses. DK's Down B beats all grounded defensive options, his Up B beats dodges (and shield pokes damaged shields), and his Side B breaks damaged shields. DK's Down B, Punch, spaced Dtilt/Jab, and spaced Bair are safe on block. Ganon has Usmash, spaced Dtilt, spaced Nair/Bair, and crossup Dash Attack are safe on block. While their unique options are pretty well matched as far as approaching, DK's better mobility and non T-rex grabs give him an edge on both defending and approaching.

What Ganon has going for him is that he is one of the few characters that DK doesn't want to trade with. Ganon's aerials are all really good air-to-air and will trade favorably with DK's aerials. DK's size also makes Ganon's Bair a pretty good spacing tool.

As far as edgeguarding goes, they are both very capable of destroying each other with well timed spikes. Depending on DI, Ganon might get gimped by random stray hits. DK pretty much never gets gimped offstage unless he gets spiked or footstooled. Ganon's recovery is more exploitable in general, but DK's is easier to spike.

Unteched Flame Choke only guarantees a jab, which helps a lot at mitigating DK's poor disadvantaged state. DK's Cargo Utoss > Uair is pretty brutal for Ganon, while Ganon's Dthrow stops comboing pretty early. Ganon has WF as medium risk high reward anti-juggle tool. DK doesn't really have anything, but he has way better aerial mobility so he can drift/jump away much more effectively and reset to the ledge.

 

[Vermanubis]

I have a fairly good idea about what Kong Cyclone's limits are, but I have yet to fight a DK using Kong Cyclone, so I won't say anything about what Ganon can do against yet. @ Vermanubis has fought a DK using Kong Cyclone in a tournament before, so we'll see what he has to say about it.

Cyclone Kong is just horrible. Even if DK spams it full-frontal, it's exceedingly difficult to punish, especially with platforms around. You can spotdodge at just the right time as DK's about to come in contact with you to avoid it, but even then, its horizontal speed makes it a tough punish. My advice would be to avoid all places with platforms like the plague.

Also, I wanna apologize for not contributing much to this thread recently. I just don't feel I've had anything worth saying about the past few MUs. If I don't have a lot of explicit knowledge that I've tested against an upper eschalon user of that given character, I avoid making too many claims about the MU, mostly because how someone plays can dramatically alter my opinion on the MU.

Rosa's a good example with customs. I thought WDK might make the MU much more tolerable, and it was against a number of Rosas, but having played iCraq a bunch recently, who knows the MU pretty intimately, my opinion shifted to where I don't think WDK makes that big a difference.

 

[Blobface]

@ Xinc I was going to ask some of the Donkey Kong's for some matches so I can get some impressions of the matchup + Kong Cyclone. Would it be ok if I brought them to this thread as well?