The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[didds]

got some video up on the match thread, id love some critique. please and thanks ahead of time

 

[Kaysick]

got some video up on the match thread, id love some critique. please and thanks ahead of time

I critiqued it. If anyone else wants me to do it on their video as well, just ask.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Basing in Tampa Bay, An event called "The Sweet Spot" is starting as a Bi-Weekly event. We had 11 entrants in our P:M bracket (a wooping prize of $11 to first place) And in the end, my Yoshi came out on top. http://imgur.com/a/IWEM4
Matchups:

vs Falco
Tech in ways the Falco won't expect. Always try to tech from his d-airs, Falco thrives on punishing missed techs. Grabs,d-tilt, n-air out of shield and b-air are omni-important in this one. If you can get a grab, it's a guaranteed d-smash at anything above 15% . if you can get a d-tilt off and get them off the ledge, d-tilt beats an up-b recovery and n-air beats everything else.

vs Captain Falcon
Grabs and tech chases help get the damage in, but a solid ledge game keeps Falcon on the edge. simple d-tilts and n-air out of shield guards are solid enough. (n-air comes out faster than the knee so if you read a knee will be thrown out, n-air is a good option for catching it in its early animations.)

vs Snake
I am currently learning snake (because of Professor Pro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpwIEkbkIfU) and all you need to do is keep track of when and where snake puts down mines and when he has a grenade in his hand.

vs Link
This is a relatively difficult matchup for Yoshi, mainly because every projectile cancels an eggroll approach. My method was to approach with a short hop right after boomerang comes out so I could punish the ending animation of that, If I missed the n-air, then it's an L-cancel Jab Jab d-tilt or grab.

vs DK
Easy matchup, Yoshi out-spaces DK with everything and DK is beefy enough that he takes every hit from b-air and d-air. Just get a d-throw to any aerial you desire.

vs Lucas (Grand Finals)
Yoshi has less options with Lucas, but if you out-space him and get your grabs, every d-throw is a free up-smash at early percentages. if Lucas approaches with his side-b, n-air and f-air beat both of those out (n-air with some frames left over for Lucas). Yoshi (among most of the cast) can get combo'd hard by Lucas, but what the difference is, is that Yoshi can avoid Lucas's kill moves. During the one of the matches, the Lucas bounced me and threw out a (full b-charged) up-smash that was guaranteed to hit, and in the last second I double jumped. The armor in the early frames of DJ was enough to tank the full amount of knock-back and I didn't move an inch. This factor comes into play with Lucas's gimps as well, his b-air and d-air can't do anything to super-armor early. Basically, the matchup is tricky, but Yoshi has the advantage of a stronger ledge game and survives much longer. (try to avoid getting grabbed at anything above 115% though, on most stages an up-throw will mean death.)

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

I figure i'd make my first post in the yoshi forums here. I think that yoshi is an incredibly fun character with incredible strengths, and fun-to-play-around-but-still-glaring-weaknesses. He really rounds out my main 4 complement of characters very nicely.

I've noticed a whole bunch of things and would to share some and would like clarification on a few. None of them really demand a thread on its own, so feel free to attack er… discuss anything I post. Some are pretty simple questions.

How much damage does a full down air do?

Is it possible to fair and fastball the hitbox to spike an opponent who is sweetspotting his recovery? (i.e. fastfall d-air like marth?)

Parrying: I've read a couple threads and posts scattered here and there, but Im wondering if theres a concise input and function that parrying plays.

From what i've understood, you apply shield just before being attacked (like perfect shielding?) and act OOS (jump or grab). This will "tank" the incoming hit with no knock back or damage and even prevent a grab? Applications would include blocking any predictable incoming attack thats not multi hit… correct?

If there's a really good source on It i'd appreciate a link or redirection to the thread, thx.

B-sticking/b-reversals/wavebouncing (the technique where you input B, then immediately press back on control stick and characters turn around and reverse their momentum):

So after picking him up and observing how good his neutral B is as a command grab that applies in the air, on ground, and has decent "meatiness." I essentially do what I do with most characters and try to break them as much as I can to see their potential before getting too far into basics.
My current, very scientific, preliminary findings are that yoshi's neutral B's weakness are due to lack of mobility and safeness because if you use it grounded or airborne its pretty punishable after use. However, upon B-reversing or wave bouncing (I'm still not sure which is which, I just do them) Yoshi can receive considerable amount of momentum reverse and additionally starts his neutral B in the air, resulting in "less" end lag while on the ground. Similarily, when yoshi runs toward his opponent and neutral b wave bounces backward, he is able to throw out the neutral b while remaining very safe. Overall I was wondering how much, if at all, you guys have tried or currently use yoshi's unreal neutral B. I swear, with its range and ridiculousness, with mastery of b-sticking, it will be a very safe and reliable option for the small openings it provides. I am still unsure as to how to follow up most effectively. If possible I usually use Usmash for damage.

Pivot Grabbing: Is his pivot grab as ridiculous as its ridiculousness suggests? What a crazy wonky best pivot grab ever. Why would you standing grab? I try to abuse this as much as possible. It seems to often grab opponents who dash toward you and commit with an aerial expecting it to land On shield, you dash back, stick out the massive tongue box, and grab opponent with or without damage. This is pretty core to my game.

Egg Roll. Im trying to figure this out, but I swear I've been able to short hop and do something where yoshi starts the egg on the ground essentially at full speed. Every time I see that I've "done" it, I wasn't paying enough attention to notice what I did. Maybe Im high or whatever, but has anyone else done this? Anyway, if this is the case, it seems pretty suprising how fast you could be rushing someone down after appearing to reset the neutral game by jumping away.

Anyhow thats enough for now. I think I'll add more later to this thread.

 

[didds]

I also think neutral B is secret God Grab

 

[TensenROB]

snip

- Full d-air deals 52% maximum if you include the landing hitbox
- I've done that kind of ledge spike with f-air, the hitbox goes below the ground so it may be possible to f-air sweetspotted recoveries
- Parrying currently doesn't fully work, grabs can be parried but I think Yoshi still receives hitlag on parried attacks, correct me if I'm wrong. The parry window is the first 6 frames of Yoshi's shield, during Yoshi cannot be grabbed. Yoshi can jump out of the parry window in a full press shield but not light press shield.
- Pivot grab is Yoshi's best grab by far, see here

I like b-reverse egg lay from platforms but egg lay from a shorthop defends only against aerial approaches while leaving Yoshi vulnerable from ground approaches. If it's a late egglay that you're doing from far away then that'd be fine I think. Retreating b-turnaround egg lay is very similar but has less room for execution error.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Pivot grab is the fastest one by far, but I don't know that it's the best. Dash grab certainly has it's uses, and I tend to use it a lot more often.

 

[Kaysick]

Pivot grab is the fastest one by far, but I don't know that it's the best. Dash grab certainly has it's uses, and I tend to use it a lot more often.

I personally think Yoshi's dash grab is the best. Far range and its 1 frame longer than the rest of the grabs (doesn't seem like much but it really is). Honestly I think I've only gotten one pivot grab in my entire time playing with Yoshi.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I personally think Yoshi's dash grab is the best. Far range and its 1 frame longer than the rest of the grabs (doesn't seem like much but it really is). Honestly I think I've only gotten one pivot grab in my entire time playing with Yoshi.

His pivot is amazing. Dash has its uses, but Pivot is godlike for any sort of read or techchase. Its a simple dashdance back and pivot grab to stunt anyone SHFFLing at you.
Side Note:
My capture card was out of commission for a while, but it's now back in working order, so more videos are coming

 

[#HBC | Joker]

His pivot is amazing. Dash has its uses, but Pivot is godlike for any sort of read or techchase. Its a simple dashdance back and pivot grab to stunt anyone SHFFLing at you.
Side Note:
My capture card was out of commission for a while, but it's now back in working order, so more videos are coming

Dash grab still reaches further, and covers a larger area because he lunges forward. Pivot grab certainly has it's uses, and I'm aware of what they are, but I suggest you give Dash grab a chance.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Dash grab still reaches further, and covers a larger area because he lunges forward. Pivot grab certainly has it's uses, and I'm aware of what they are, but I suggest you give Dash grab a chance.

It's not that I choose pivot over dash. That would make no sense. I use dash grab more than anything else, but I believe that Yoshi has the best Pivot grab in the game, hands down.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He certainly sees the results of doing a pivot grab more than anyone else.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Now I have some good matches recorded, the question is this, Should I upload all the matches along with a combo video? or just the combo video?

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

^^My selfish answer is both please!

I find I learn faster by copying, and combo videos and high-level matches are great ways to do that.

i know what you guys mean about dash vs pivot. Pivot is a fantastic grab overall, but you obviously forward grab is for grabbing a roll away. I do however prefer to dash away, pivot grab over standing grab.

I also noticed I really see dashing-crouch-downsmash as a very good tech chase finisher or roll punish. I do notice that if the opponent decides to jump often dash attack is preferred as it will hit an aerial opponent better, but of course dsmash has the power and angle for seriously low% KO's.

Lastly, I went briefly into the application of b-reversal/waveboucning, whatever its called, in my previous post. I've kind of ironed out what I think a pretty good mixup is for hits that send an opponent grounded just ahead of yoshi. If you knock them down (nair, jab2, dash attack) and they're about 3 Yoshi wave-dash units (its an SI unit ok?) ahead... you can dash, jump and start your input for wave bouncing and decide if you want to fastball fair/nair L-cancel-->jab1/2, or wave bounce a neutral B. if they see you approaching from the air, they will often do a getup attack, and this will result in a egg lay if the wave bounce is done correctly.
If the opponent doesn't do a getup attack, they risk eating a fair/nair while grounded, and if they are rolling to avoid the incoming attack, the jab1-2 may catch them in front or behind if pivoted.

Its not flawless but I've been able to set it up fairly reliably and it can condition your opponent quite nicely.

My ending question is: What is the most effective followup to egg lay on fastfallers, mediumfallers, and floaties?

Upsmash on fastfallers seems to result in eating an egg-break fastfall nair.

Double jab or Dsmash, d-tilt are good for low end lag, but not great for damage.

What do you guys do to followup an egg lay?

 

[didds]

egg lay: I'll usually just get a bair in for damage and then just try to stay near by to bait an attack as they come out, which I'll then try to punish.

 

[TomBoComBo]

^^My selfish answer is both please!

I find I learn faster by copying, and combo videos and high-level matches are great ways to do that.

i know what you guys mean about dash vs pivot. Pivot is a fantastic grab overall, but you obviously forward grab is for grabbing a roll away. I do however prefer to dash away, pivot grab over standing grab.

I also noticed I really see dashing-crouch-downsmash as a very good tech chase finisher or roll punish. I do notice that if the opponent decides to jump often dash attack is preferred as it will hit an aerial opponent better, but of course dsmash has the power and angle for seriously low% KO's.

Lastly, I went briefly into the application of b-reversal/waveboucning, whatever its called, in my previous post. I've kind of ironed out what I think a pretty good mixup is for hits that send an opponent grounded just ahead of yoshi. If you knock them down (nair, jab2, dash attack) and they're about 3 Yoshi wave-dash units (its an SI unit ok?) ahead... you can dash, jump and start your input for wave bouncing and decide if you want to fastball fair/nair L-cancel-->jab1/2, or wave bounce a neutral B. if they see you approaching from the air, they will often do a getup attack, and this will result in a egg lay if the wave bounce is done correctly.
If the opponent doesn't do a getup attack, they risk eating a fair/nair while grounded, and if they are rolling to avoid the incoming attack, the jab1-2 may catch them in front or behind if pivoted.

Its not flawless but I've been able to set it up fairly reliably and it can condition your opponent quite nicely.

My ending question is: What is the most effective followup to egg lay on fastfallers, mediumfallers, and floaties?

Upsmash on fastfallers seems to result in eating an egg-break fastfall nair.

Double jab or Dsmash, d-tilt are good for low end lag, but not great for damage.

What do you guys do to followup an egg lay?

For your ending question, I follow up my rare use of egglay with d-airs usually. But I like to read when they come out (since popping out causes you to rise) and u-air them at the apex of that hop.
And with the b-reversal/wavebouncing, that situation you described is a pretty over complicated way to deal with the situation. In that particular situation, I shorthop over them to force a get-up-attack, then mid-air eggroll in the direction I just came to avoid the get-up-attack, then upon hitting the ground, change the direction of eggroll towards them, punishing the get-up and popping them up for whatever followup I feel like.

And yeah, I'm cutting up all of the matches individually. A combo video will be made after the matches are up

 

[Kaysick]

Expect to see more Yellow dino out of me, I'm picking him back up.

His pivot grab is stupid good.

 

[didds]

I just finally got my pivot grabbing down. I didn't realize how easy it actually was.
I've just been grabbing early the whole time -_-

 

[TomBoComBo]

Expect to see more Yellow dino out of me, I'm picking him back up.

His pivot grab is stupid good.

So I've said

 

[Kaysick]

So I've said

I didn't belieeeeeeeeeve

"What is a God to a non believer?"

 

[Scatz]

Welcome to our world again. I was wondering when you guys would realize how good pivot grab really is.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Welcome to our world again. I was wondering when you guys would realize how good pivot grab really is.

Oh, I knew. I know that very very well. Running grab is very useful, but Yoshi has the best pivot grab in P:M

 

[Kaysick]

Want to know one thing I love about this board? Everyone is pretty active and open to help out. The Samus boards are pure cancer and hate... glad I'm out of there.

One thing I've been pulling off recently is sweet spotting Yoshi's Nair on edge to meteor your opponent's recoveries. Its been working wonders.

EDIT: Not sure if I mentioned it before, but I'm sticking with Yoshi and Kirby for now on. They're my two staples in my region and they're my best characters. I just need to learn to play Yoshi with a less risky play style, which has been working wonders so far.

 

[Damp]

I've been maining Yoshi since he came out, and feel like I'm pretty decent with him at a competitive level. That said, I see a lot of you mentioning that you use his Egg Roll pretty often. I only use it off stage for recovery. How can I go about incorporating more Egg Rolls into my gameplay? Right now my game consists of mostly DJC nairs, short-hop dairs, uptilts, eggs. and downsmashes. Anything else I should be trying to do that I may be overlooking?

 

[Kaysick]

I've been maining Yoshi since he came out, and feel like I'm pretty decent with him at a competitive level. That said, I see a lot of you mentioning that you use his Egg Roll pretty often. I only use it off stage for recovery. How can I go about incorporating more Egg Rolls into my gameplay? Right now my game consists of mostly DJC nairs, short-hop dairs, uptilts, eggs. and downsmashes. Anything else I should be trying to do that I may be overlooking?

You can easily tech chase with egg roll and you can use egg roll > utilt x3 at low %s.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've been maining Yoshi since he came out, and feel like I'm pretty decent with him at a competitive level. That said, I see a lot of you mentioning that you use his Egg Roll pretty often. I only use it off stage for recovery. How can I go about incorporating more Egg Rolls into my gameplay? Right now my game consists of mostly DJC nairs, short-hop dairs, uptilts, eggs. and downsmashes. Anything else I should be trying to do that I may be overlooking?

Eggroll is a pivotal part of my game. It clangs with almost everything and is amazing for augmenting your movement. Here are some of my examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U013VI2j_Vw (ignore my mediocre snake in first match)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEQajyRtX4M (image breaks up for about 30 seconds in second match but comes back)

http://www.twitch.tv/taerknet/c/4135853

 

[Damp]

I'll try to get some videos of matches up here so you guys can critique them. I'm gonna try to use eggroll more.

 

[Deviljho]

Hey @ Damp , I'll be putting up a video of advanced techs (Melee ones) soon, at the end I'll also put up a match of P:M. If you want I can get a vid of me Playing P:M Yoshi as well. I use egg roll for combos a lot, so you could see how it's used.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey @ Damp , I'll be putting up a video of advanced techs (Melee ones) soon, at the end I'll also put up a match of P:M. If you want I can get a vid of me Playing P:M Yoshi as well. I use egg roll for combos a lot, so you could see how it's used.

my vids work for that as well.

 

[Deviljho]

my vids work for that as well.

I was just suggesting. It'll be half melee and half PM so yours may be better. I'll get to recording some more PM soon, I just got a capture card so it'll be awesome.

 

[CaterpillarCake]

Hey, I've been playing Yoshi for awhile in PM and melee. One thing I think I've realized is that Yoshi's fastfall speed in PM has been wrecked. Am I just crazy or is it significantly slower in PM?

 

[Deviljho]

I don't see much of a difference. Maybe it's a tad slower but I am not really affected.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

That's not Yoshi's fault; it's the 1 frame physics delay at it again.

In other news, I've been examining Dthrow's frame data again and your frame advantage greatly fluctuates on the character's weight. For example, Against Bowser with only 0% before the throw, the frame advantage is +14. However, when you do the same to lighter characters such as Diddy, the advantage can grow quite a bit. Against Diddy in the same conditions the frame advantage is +21.

It appears that Bowser's frame disadvantage only goes up by a little. When you dthrow him at 24%, Yoshi's frame advantage is just +15. At 48%, it's just +16. At 72%, it's just +18, and at 96,% it's just +19.....

Diddy's frame disadvantage goes up in a similar fashion. At 24% when throw by Yoshi, Yoshi's frame Advantage is +22; when at 48%, it's +24, etc.

I think we can use dthrow to confirm Egg Lay on lighter characters if their DI is specific....

 

[TomBoComBo]

YO ALL YOSHI MAINS NEED THIS SHIRT, LETS GET THIS PASSED
http://www.teespring.com/amsa#pid=2&cid=563

 

[TensenROB]

YO ALL YOSHI MAINS NEED THIS SHIRT, LETS GET THIS PASSED
http://www.teespring.com/amsa#pid=2&cid=563

I PRAY TO WIN

 

[TomBoComBo]

BRO that Akuma Yoshi Tho

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What do people think of Egg Roll as a possible edgeguarding tool? When you start a roll onstage, and then roll out over the ledge, you can still cancel the roll and you'll still have your DJ. You'd be able to roll off the ledge at a nice low angle, which puts you in a good position to hit people recovering low, but doesn't come with the risk of getting smacked out of your DJ.

It's just a theory, so I guess the question is what kind of angle would the eggroll send someone at if you hit them that way? I expect it's super light knockback, and it may very well actually knock them up, which would make it kind of a waste of time. Just a thought I had, curious how it'd work out.

 

[TensenROB]

edit: was wrong, egg roll is weird

 

[TensenROB]

What do you guys do out of jab reset? I usually just go jab->dsmash, but I saw aMSa doing jab->DJC uair against Fox at Apex in Melee. This post explains jab resets in Melee which I assume holds true for PM. For example Fox has 13 frames of DownDamage and 29 frames of DownStand, so if Yoshi jab resets Fox he gets 27 frames to do anything. You can land any of your tilts or smash attacks, you can grab, and you can even egg lay. But you can attack too quick because they still get their intangibility frames while standing up.

Most characters have the same DownDamage and DownStand frame counts so the only difference between them is when their intangibility ends.

 

[Deviljho]

What do people think of Egg Roll as a possible edgeguarding tool? When you start a roll onstage, and then roll out over the ledge, you can still cancel the roll and you'll still have your DJ. You'd be able to roll off the ledge at a nice low angle, which puts you in a good position to hit people recovering low, but doesn't come with the risk of getting smacked out of your DJ.

It's just a theory, so I guess the question is what kind of angle would the eggroll send someone at if you hit them that way? I expect it's super light knockback, and it may very well actually knock them up, which would make it kind of a waste of time. Just a thought I had, curious how it'd work out.

You shouldn't eggroll for edge guarding. As useful as it is, It's a terrible idea. If you're hit out of it and fall off the ledge, there goes your stock.

YO ALL YOSHI MAINS NEED THIS SHIRT, LETS GET THIS PASSED
http://www.teespring.com/amsa#pid=2&cid=563

I'm definitely getting one.