The Counter Game III: READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING. Join the fun!

[Terywj [태리]]

Cradily Tickles on switch-in, Close Combat brings Cradily down to 19% health before Sitrus Berry restores to 44%. With -2 Defense from Tickle and Close Combat Seed Bomb deals 98.5% maximum damage which kills you (including Life Orb recoil).

Two consecutive Ice Punches fail to 2HKO after being Tickled on the switch-in and Seed Bomb provides a KO with your Life Orb recoil.

Counter fail. Unless I did something wrong.

 

[IceArrow]

****, how do you check these stuff.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Smogon's Damage Calculator.

 

[PowerBomb]

Change it to Muscle Band and you can 2HKO (barely, I think).

 

[kirbyraeg]

Cradily Tickles on switch-in, Close Combat brings Cradily down to 19% health before Sitrus Berry restores to 44%. With -2 Defense from Tickle and Close Combat Seed Bomb deals 98.5% maximum damage which kills you (including Life Orb recoil).

Two consecutive Ice Punches fail to 2HKO after being Tickled on the switch-in and Seed Bomb provides a KO with your Life Orb recoil.

Counter fail. Unless I did something wrong.

You can just switch the order of Ice Punch and Close Combat in your first example, and if Cradily doesn't tickle the switch-in it dies to CC. Counter wins.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Counters have to work in any condition, where the Pokemon being countered has everyting going for it. Since Tickle on the switch-in is most beneficial, it is suggested to happen.

That's what the rules are, anyway.

 

[IceArrow]

where in Smogon is the calculator?

 

[NJzFinest]

http://www.smogon.com/calc/

 

[Circa]

@ Cradily

Mawile @ Leftovers
Adamant / Hyper Cutter
252 HP / 208 Atk / 48 Def
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Focus Punch
- Sucker Punch

You don't 2HKO and I outpace and 2HKO you (or OHKO after an SD).

 

[IceArrow]

Ice Punch to CC kill Cradily, im pretty sure.

 

[mood4food77]

yea, but if he tickles on the turn you switch in, your defense is lowered to the point in which he does >90% damage the next turn (while you fail to OHKO him)

counter fails

 

[IceArrow]

oh, now i get it.

 

[Wave⁂]

Primeape switches in, Cradily Tickles.

Primeape uses Ice Punch, Cradily uses Seed Bomb.
Cradily: 66.2% - Primeape: 15.8%

Primeape uses Close Combat.
Cradily: 0% - Primeape: 5.8%

 

[IceArrow]

ok, now I am really confused.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

His calcs seem off, but now I don't even know anymore.

 

[mood4food77]

i get it now

even if cradily tickles, for cradily to do enough damage to OHKO primeape after LO damage, primeape has to use CC, but if he uses ice punch first, craidly doesn't get the KO and then primeape can finish him off with CC, therefore winning

primeape works

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Alrighty then. Primeape is the current counter. Thanks for clearing that up, M4F.

 

[Circa]

i get it now

even if cradily tickles, for cradily to do enough damage to OHKO primeape after LO damage, primeape has to use CC, but if he uses ice punch first, craidly doesn't get the KO and then primeape can finish him off with CC, therefore winning

primeape works

Unless of course Cradily Tickles twice, in which situation Primeape is forced to CC immediately to get the 2HKO, as Ice Punch -> CC doesn't 2HKO in the situation and Cradily would then be able to OHKO on the turn of the CC.

How the **** does a counter work if the situation to win comes down to prediction?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's why there were the rules are supposed to give the most leeway to the Pokemon being countered.

 

[Circa]

Which then means the counter doesn't work, as there's a situation where the Primeape can be KO'd before it KOs. Which is, actually, in the rules.

Counter fail.

I wouldn't have protected it if I hadn't done some calc'ing earlier to figure it out. :\

 

[mood4food77]

wowwwwww

this is so confusing

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The PokeCenter hurt themselves in confusion!

Let's just stick with one of the counters and call it a day. It's just a couple points.

 

[kirbyraeg]

The rules shouldn't be that the counter must work in all situations, but merely that with a "perfect" response it can cover every possible option. In this case, Primeape responds to Tickle on the switch-in by using Ice Punch then Close Combat, and if Cradily doesn't use this most-efficient course of action, then it gets KO'ed by Close Combat on the next turn. There is no situation where if both players play perfectly that Cradily wins.

 

[mood4food77]

can we call this a failed counter as it doesn't force the cradily to switch?

 

[Circa]

The rules shouldn't be that the counter must work in all situations, but merely that with a "perfect" response it can cover every possible option. In this case, Primeape responds to Tickle on the switch-in by using Ice Punch then Close Combat, and if Cradily doesn't use this most-efficient course of action, then it gets KO'ed by Close Combat on the next turn. There is no situation where if both players play perfectly that Cradily wins.

Not if the Cradily user knows that the Primeape player knows the CC won't OHKO and the Seed Bomb he's about to use will, but also knows that if he uses Seed Bomb as the opponent uses Ice Punch (which we're assuming is the "optimal" choice) then the Cradily player loses. And this is do-or-die for each player, as that's basically the scenario we're dealing with. And in such a scenario, there's a 50-50 chance of either side winning just because each side has a 50-50 chance of choosing the right move between two specific moves.

In which case, we must assume that the player who's countering isn't the lucky one, and he chooses wrong. Considering the unlucky factor is how we deal with a lot of other stuff in areas where it should actually matter, I'd assume that's what is done here.

You have to constantly remember that we're assuming each player knows what the opposing set is.

 

[kirbyraeg]

You're generally right, but in this case the potential choices are illusory. Primeape will always choose to Ice Punch->CC because that is the best course of action after considering all potential options that the opponent could use and realizing that Close Combat cannot 1hko the opponent. There is no option that the Cradily player can take to successfully defeat Primeape if it chooses to use Ice Punch first, therefore in my opinion the rules should show that it is a successful counter. My point is that in this case, whatever choice the Cradily player makes, the Primeape player will always be able to use that same response of ice punch->cc and win.

...unless the cradily tickles twice, which forces the primeape to CC twice in order to KO it. I kinda just noticed that >_>

 

[mood4food77]

but i don't think we've ever had a case like this

this is straight up down to predictions

so i dunno if this really is a counter

 

[Circa]

You're generally right, but in this case the potential choices are illusory. Primeape will always choose to Ice Punch->CC because that is the best course of action after considering all potential options that the opponent could use and realizing that Close Combat cannot 1hko the opponent. There is no option that the Cradily player can take to successfully defeat Primeape if it chooses to use Ice Punch first, therefore in my opinion the rules should show that it is a successful counter. My point is that in this case, whatever choice the Cradily player makes, the Primeape player will always be able to use that same response of ice punch->cc and win.

...if it Tickles again instead of attacking with Seed Bomb after the first Tickle, Ice Punch -> CC doesn't work and Seed Bomb then KOs.

As I said, it's 50-50.

EDIT: Ninja'd dang it.

EDIT2: M4f, it's not a counter if it comes down to predictions. A counter should always win in the situation bar improbable hax. It's basically the rule of a counter.

 

[Wave⁂]

To-be-countered Pokémon:

Shedinja A @ Light Clay
Speed stat: 120
Sucker Punch
Shadow Sneak

Countering Pokémon:

Shedinja B @ Focus Sash
Speed stat: 150
Shadow Sneak
Toxic


Shedinja A obviously Shadow Sneaks on the switch-in, breaking B's Sash.

        A SP           A SS
B SS    A win          B win
B To    B win          A win

Who wins?

EDIT: Okay wait pretend Sucker Punch would hit before B's Shadow Sneak.

 

[mood4food77]

sheddy B wins 100% of the time

shadow sneak and sucker punch both have +1 priority so the faster sheddy wins, the only way sheddy B loses if he toxic's

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Except Shedinja B would have to assume worst scenario, as in Toxic, right?

Wow we're all getting owned by a single thread. GG

 

[mood4food77]

it's not as extreme of a case as all sheddy B has to do is Shadow Sneak

the only way sheddy A wins is if sheddy B toxics and sheddy A shadow sneaks

 

[Wave⁂]

all sheddy B has to do is Sucker Punch

Shedinja B @ Focus Sash
Speed stat: 150
Shadow Sneak
Toxic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[mood4food77]

my bad, i meant shadow sneak

 

[Wave⁂]

If B uses Shadow Sneak, A kills him first with Sucker Punch.

 

[mood4food77]

no....they have +1 priority which means, the faster poke goes first if both use a priority move

 

[Wave⁂]

pretend Sucker Punch would hit before B's Shadow Sneak.

Too lazy to post another image macro.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I'm oblivious to your cute charms.

 

[mood4food77]

well, in a hypothetical sense if sucker punch always went before any attacking move i guess the counter fails as in not every scenario is covered and there is no 100% method to get the guaranteed win and it's based solely on prediction

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Primape works. The person countering chooses what move he uses, not you. Ice Punch to CC is what counters if you use Tickle, if you don't Tickle, he still wins.

The job of the counter is to have an answer to ANYTHING that the opposing pokemon can throw at it. The opposing Pokemon doesn't have any say in that.

There is only one question when it comes to the counter game: Can the counter win under any situation that the opposing pokemon puts it into?
a) Yes = Counter Successful.
b) No = Counter Fail.

You're all seriously overthinking this. Primape is the current counter. The Counter Game has never had anything to do with prediction. Can Cradily with if this was real, and Primape failed to predict correctly? Of course. But that's not the point of this.