The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[AlphaZealot]

Why should I be interested in potential if it's not even being shown that there is any? Why should I value potential over present? Potential will not dictate fate, and I suggest you not presume it to do so.

I mean, since your interested in the present, then Brawl is just fine, there are consistent winners, meaning someone does something right more so than others and the others, for whatever reason, have no caught on.

Also, touting 3 months of tournament results is fine for determing where characters currently stand, but the amount of data here is very minimal. For example, how many people have actually even tried Mario in a tournament? Very few. What about Diddy Kong? Very few. The list goes on, a year of results would net as a pretty good idea of where players start, but, the results we have currently describe the current conditions, which is simply that all of us have had the game for 3 months and I highly doubt anyone has spent the time to really develop more than one character, besides Azen. Speaking of Azen, hes won or placed top 3 at pretty much every tournament he has gone to and he uses a different character every week. Is this really evidence of anything? No, its mainly just Azen being Azen, but it does show that in the right hands many more characters other than just Meta and Snake can compete. If Azen could beat one of the best Meta players using Lucario, I'm willing to bet the...what, probably 10-15 characters that are better than Lucario, also stand a chance. As you said though, its prediction and potential, at current Meta and Snake appear quite often, my point is simply that 3 months of data isn't enough to reach a conclusion about anything other than how the game has only been played for 3 months.

I find it quite ironic that this statement:

And... the only people moving on to brawl are the nubs who have never played competitively in their lives. Melee pros are only moving on because they realize there's a lot of money to be made off of these nubs. Most prefer melee as a competitive game, and in fact many still do play melee.

Is followed by this statement:

So yeah... don't try to claim opinion as fact, or make obviously wrong claims, especially if you don't want people to respond to you.

Cause, sorry, tons of competitive Melee players from all levels of play have moved on to Brawl. This is a fact, and their reasons are irrelevant.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Notice that 90% of the people who used SWF before the influx of Brawl idiots were competitive Smashers. SWF was the COMPETITIVE SMASH HUB of the internet. You joined late last year; how could you possibly familiarize yourself with what this entire community is about, especially with the trollish attitude you're displaying?

Your arguments suck, and you're an obvious troll. Get over yourself.

Also, people are not noticing important posts in this thread, which makes this scrub debate spin around in a hellish circle of idiocy, which is the main reason I steer clear of the Brawl Boards as much as possible now. I.E., oddly enough, Morpheus skipped right over this gem:

They don't suck, but you are so full of yourself that you don't get a thing. There are a lot of people like you on this forums that think they know a lot. You think that because I joined last year and you joined before and have 3000 posts (get a life) you can teach newcomers and talk about being Pro, competitive , trolls, etc. It is disgusting. You ruin this community. I am a very peaceful man, but your flaming posts and cocky attitude really pisses me off. You should learn more about a certain virtue called humility.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

They don't suck, but you are so full of yourself that you don't get a thing. There are a lot of people like you on this forums that think they know a lot. You think that because I joined last year and you joined before and have 3000 posts (get a life) you can teach newcomers and talk about being Pro, competitive , trolls, etc. It is disgusting. You ruin this community. I am a very peaceful man, but your flaming posts and cocky attitude really pisses me off. You should learn more about a certain virtue called humility.

Peaceful, my ***. Get off of your ****ing high horse, son.

A "peaceful" man wouldn't resort to insults if he was faced with hostilty. Rather, a "peaceful" man would take it in stride.

Don't get pissy because a handful of people have taken apart your arguments.

Smooth Criminal

 

[leafgreen386]

They don't suck, but you are so full of yourself that you don't get a thing. There are a lot of people like you on this forums that think they know a lot. You think that because I joined last year and you joined before and have 3000 posts (get a life) you can teach newcomers and talk about being Pro, competitive , trolls, etc. It is disgusting. You ruin this community. I am a very peaceful man, but your flaming posts and cocky attitude really pisses me off. You should learn more about a certain virtue called humility.

I like it when the instigator claims "oh poor me" the moment someone refutes their poor logic.

 

[battousai555]

I like it when the instigator claims "oh poor me" the moment someone refutes their poor logic.

Touché! 10 French fries

 

[popsofctown]

Something bothers me about some of the posts in this thread.

Every so often, someone compares Brawl and Melee to paintings. They'll say that Brawl is like a black and white or grayscale image, while Melee is painting with color. And they use this as an example of why Melee is better than Brawl, because color is clearly better than black and white, right?

WRONG.

If you went up to ANY good artist of ANY variety (commercial, fine arts, design, architecture, comics, illustration, you name it) and said "color is automatically better than black and white" you would be LAUGHED AT.

And yet people use this already ridiculous analogy for things like the level of hit stun or the power of shields between the two games. In using such a poorly thought out analogy, all that's realized is exactly the points that AlphaZealot made with his original post, that the games are different and that some fundamentals have been replaced by others (general approach strategies versus character-specific ones, for example).

In conclusion, if you're going to use an analogy at least try to use a good one because all that happens is that it weakens your argument.

haha. Hilariously true..... i don't think it actually weakens their arguments, since we still understand their intent. But that is indeed quite true. I imagine some pictures would be ruined if they had been done in color instead.... Like a basket of fruits and vegetables, you can make a gourd the center of the painting in black and white, but that'd be hard to do in color. since as far as i know gourds are kinda brownish.

Anyways, i don't know much about this Morpheus person, but I think everyone agrees he's way out of line. (if anyone besides Morpheus himself disagrees, say so)
I move that he silenced or at least warned, on the grounds that he told another member of the community to go to hell.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I've been lurking this thread for a bit, and MorpheusVGX is another nooblet who doesn't understand what he's talking about. Morph, my friend, do yourself a favor and stop trolling... your hypocrisy is amusing (I am a peaceful man, lol), but you're just eating space in a thread where real, knowledgable people are trying to have a discussion. It's not about the number of posts you have, it's about what you say. And when everything you say reeks of "dun't insult my fravorite game, iz so good!" and you obviously lack the knowledge and experience to compare the two games. It's time to grow up, swallow your pride, and realize that you're simply not qualified to weigh in. If you stop screaming for attention, you'll stop being insulted. It's pretty simple.

Just thought I'd throw some fuel on the stfu fire.

 

[Johnknight1]

I like it when the instigator claims "oh poor me" the moment someone refutes their poor logic.

Ya, it gets to be pretty darn pitiful. O woe is me. Woe is me. I'm the only one who ever felt pain THIS BAD in the entire world. Yet half the world will never ever see a computer. Everyone ALWAYS has to be the victim...

 

[dj_pwn1423]

even brawl supporters think Morpheus is an idiot ^_^

 

[Salaad]

i like both Melee and Brawl but Brawl needs more time to develop.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Hey AZ.....actually that guy is right about most "pro-melee" players still preferring brawl with the exception of what's his name........the camper dude. Ironically enough he sucked in Melee, due mostly to his annoyingly defensive tactics.

Also, I gotta say that if you want to play an utterly strategic game then play Go or Chess. The reason the smash series is so sweet is that via Technical Prowess, thinking on the fly and reacting appropriately progressed rapidly. What I call, dynamic strategy. With brawl, however, options have been eliminated and speed of play reduced, in no small part due to revamping of the physics and removal of various techs. The dynamic strategy that has thus far defined smash still exists of course, but to a lesser degree. In other words it feels like they took a step back, especially in terms of mobility/sheer controllability of each character.

Your statement about technical skill being a barrier is true, but the argument is utter nonsense. I would explain in-depth but I think asking you to look at any sport is enough proof.

 

[ajc3388]

logging in just to say this, but the idea that lower technical prowess (less options) promotes more entry, leading to a bigger pool of better players, is true, but at the same time, works against the OP's point in saying its more competitive.

The best example is rock paper scissors. Truly, the options are very limited, the rules are very simple, and its open for everyone in the world to play. Thus, it is played all the time in the real world. By your many of the replies' arguments it should be more competitive. But, obviously there is little room for competition, no matter how hard you think.

As well, the more complex and technical the game, the more gamers get what they want. Video games are created for a combination of flashy game play and strategy. Truly good fighting games get people excited just by watching, melee was interesting to watch. Brawl, is less so. It's like comparing Street fighter II, to 3rd Strike. 3rd strike is clearly more competitive. And SFII is to 3rd strike what brawl is to melee. And SFII surely didnt get us as excited as things like Evo Moment #37.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Hey AZ.....actually that guy is right about most "pro-melee" players still preferring brawl with the exception of what's his name........the camper dude. Ironically enough he sucked in Melee, due mostly to his annoyingly defensive tactics.

No. Most simply have not really even made a decision either way (like me) or at least know that the days of Melee are over and its time to explore a new game, off the top of my head: DSF, Forward, Azen, Chillin, G-reg, and Adrees. On your side you have...M2K and Cort and maybe a couple others, (I'd throw Yuna in there, but then I'd also throw OS for the other side, but you wanted players who were really good at Melee). And, I'm assuming when you say "prefer Brawl", you meant, "prefer Melee".

Your statement about technical skill being a barrier is true, but the argument is utter nonsense. I would explain in-depth but I think asking you to look at any sport is enough proof.

Technical skill is skill, it takes A LOT of skill to be technical, but technical skill and a game being deep do not have to be linked (see: Chess/WoW). You make the mistake of putting all your eggs in the one basket of technical skill, when it is also skillful simply to out think your opponent, may not be flashy, but it takes skill. Think back to Melee in 2005, Ken dominated people, rarely did anything flashy, even when he played more technical, flashy, Fox/Falco players. He wasn't more technically skilled, he was more mentally skilled.

logging in just to say this, but the idea that lower technical prowess (less options) promotes more entry, leading to a bigger pool of better players, is true, but at the same time, works against the OP's point in saying its more competitive.

And no, lower technical skill does not mean less options, this is a fallacy commonly perpetuated for whatever reason. I have more options with my Diddy in Brawl than I ever did with my Peach in Melee. By "options" you actually mean combos, I assume.

 

[Yuna]

Alpha, making the transition because they "know" the days of Melee are over =/= Liking Brawl over Melee.

It's one thing to switch games because the scene calls for it. It's another to actually want to/prefer to.

And no, lower technical skill does not mean less options, this is a fallacy commonly perpetuated for whatever reason. I have more options with my Diddy in Brawl than I ever did with my Peach in Melee. By "options" you actually mean combos, I assume.

Fewer options mean fewer options. Yes, Diddy has a few tricks but I'd still say he still has fewer options than he would have were this Melee.

And we're not talking about character-specific options here, we're talking about general options. I mean, look at Sheik in Melee vs. Bowser in Melee, of course Sheik had more options. Not as in "Diddy has 9 ways of approaching vs. Peach's 4"... for one thing, does Peach magically have new approaches now? Brawl Diddy vs. Melee Peach = Bad comparison since they're not even the same character. A better comparison would be Melee Peach vs. Brawl Peach.

 

[thumbswayup]

I have more options with my Diddy in Brawl than I ever did with my Peach in Melee.

That's because you play Diddy in Brawl and played Peach in Melee.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Fewer options mean fewer options. Yes, Diddy has a few tricks but I'd still say he still has fewer options than he would have were this Melee.

This isn't Melee. Fact is, Diddy in Brawl has more option than Peach in Melee. You can't reverse it and say, "Well, if we put Diddy IN Melee", because Diddy isn't in Melee, he is in Brawl, and if I want more options, I'll have to play Brawl.

I don't even understand what this "options thing is about". I think people simply mean viability to keep a combo going because of hit stun, as in, when there is no hit stun, suddenly you have no options, which is completely false.

What was removed between Melee and Brawl that decreased options? Pretty much just:
Wavedashing
Dashing dashing
L-Canceling
Hit stun
Light Shielding
Power Shielding

What was added:
Toad stool jumping
Catching items with A attack, Dash attack, and every air attack/dodging
Auto-Canceled air attacks (so, this negates L-canceling as an option going against Brawl)
RARing
Perfect Shielding (same as power shielding minus projectile reflection, but, its easier to do, meaning you have more opportunity/options to actually use this technique)
Glide tossing (if your character can do it, you have wavedashing back, sorta)
Air dodging multiple times
Less hit-stun (this is both an option decreaser and increaser, depending which character you are)
Characters that, simply put, are more complex/have more options because of their move set than any Melee character, for whatever reason (Diddy being a good example, but ROB, Snake and others also exist)

The most ironic thing I find about the Brawl Melee debate is that you can find one person who complains about the lack of technical skill, but at the same time, also complains about the lack of options and will cite things like edge hogging as an example, when edge hogging is still possible in Brawl, it simply takes MORE technical skill than in Melee.

Alpha, making the transition because they "know" the days of Melee are over =/= Liking Brawl over Melee.

It's one thing to switch games because the scene calls for it. It's another to actually want to/prefer to.

True, yet, most of the players I mentioned don't really fall into the category you mention. Its actually the players like Cort/M2K that are as you describe. Most people I think are still reserving judgment, like myself.

 

[thumbswayup]

What's RARing?

Also I can't quite get the hang of diddy's glide toss. How do you do it exactly? I've pulled it off before and completely forgot how I did it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Whaatttt....wow, glide tossing is the ****. Simply shield, then press left/right on the control stick and left/right on the C-stick at the same time. Essentially, the throw animation cancels the rolling animation but leaves the rolling momentum, it looks exactly like wavedashing but you have to be throwing an item (not a bad thing, really).

RAR: Reverse Aerial Rush: dashing in, quickly tap the opposite direction before you jump, then you can perform a B-Air while still moving forward. Its sick as hell out of a dash dance with Diddy cause you can RAR double B-Air, totally messes with people trying to shield grab the same way Marth's double F-air worked in Melee.

 

[Zankoku]

It's footstool jumping. Not toadstool jumping. You're not hopping on Peach's head. Rawr.

That's all.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Shrug? I guess I had Peach on my mind.

 

[Yuna]

So you're saying... Brawl has more options than Melee... if you play as 5 or so characters? The removal of wavedashing alone made us lose a great many options. It's not just for movement back forth, you know.

 

[thumbswayup]

Do you mean the same direction when you hit left/right on both sticks or the opposite? So, does running glide toss work the same way? Do you shield to dash cancel and then pull it off? I ask cause a really good diddy user told me one of the best thing you can do with him is run at a shielding opponent, glide toss throw the bannana, and run up and grab them if they shielded the bannana (or combo them if it didn't).

 

[Bud]

I agree with you on a few things zealot, like edgeguarding. People have been saying that the removal of "melee edge guarding" makes the game less technical, which is funny/dumb because it is much harder to perform and will help the more skilled player. Also lack of hitstun and infinite air dodge will cause those who anticipate an airdodge and move accordingly, which im starting to learn, have more combo potential and possibly wreck any opponent. Im starting to understand how to beat the airdodge and I have gotten more and more edge guards and footstools every day. Im glad the game is becoming very fluid for me and I hope all of you who were having trouble or still are can get the hang of it and see the new technical things in smash and maybe not focus so much on the negative. Though tripping is dumb and costs me stocks some times, though it has saved me a few also.

 

[OmegaXXII]

^ for a fact I have known that to work because a friend of mine is also a Diddy user and pulled something similar but instead of comboing a shielded opponent he grabbed from behind

 

[AlphaZealot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnmwYSZBi2w

I'd like to point out in this video there are instances where the opponent is trying to respond via attacking, just like Yuna points out can ALWAYS happen (and apparently with 100% success), yet, as I pointed out, the start up lag of the attack still gives the initial attacker the advantage. There aren't many instances of someone trying to air dodge out of combo's, but by the same token, you can't air dodge around Falcon's Nair (Mario's Bair to Uair, Donkeys double Bair's or UpB, if you airdodge for the first part, you will be hit by the second, and its likely the person being comboed knew this), it has multiple hit frames and lasts longer than most character air dodges, just things to keep in mind. The video creator mentions the most important thing is "mind games" or simply put, thinking.

Do you mean the same direction when you hit left/right on both sticks or the opposite? So, does running glide toss work the same way? Do you shield to dash cancel and then pull it off? I ask cause a really good diddy user told me one of the best thing you can do with him is run at a shielding opponent, glide toss throw the bannana, and run up and grab them if they shielded the bannana (or combo them if it didn't).

Doesn't matter. The direction on the control stick controls the direction of the "wavedash" and the direction on the C-stick controls the direction the banana is thrown. You could be facing right. Shield, press right on the control stick (making your character move to the right) but Left on the C-stick, making your character face left and throw left while moving right. You can also be facing right, press left on the control stick and right on the C-stick, and your character will throw/face forwards as they move backwards.

So you're saying... Brawl has more options than Melee... if you play as 5 or so characters? The removal of wavedashing alone made us lose a great many options. It's not just for movement back forth, you know.

Your right, because, you know, Ken would wavedash ALL over the place, right, thats really the main reason he was so good, because, he would wavedash, right, just like Anaki's Link? Because wavedashing really was SUPER important with every single character? Right? Right?

Wavedashing was great for movement, feints, and doing bairs while moving forward (and I guess wavelanding/platform landing, but there are similar things still in Brawl). Its removal, sure, sucks, but it really isn't that bad, there are other things to compensate, and the removal of a single thing like wavedashing doesn't diminish the options in Brawl significantly.

You addressed the characters (and agreed that 5 characters have more options than any in Melee!) but you didn't address: glide tossing, raring, autocanceling, dash canceling (or whatever people are calling it now)/other techniques in Brawl.

 

[NES n00b]

No, no, no, no. Don't bring Tha Shogun's amazingness to your arguement shennagins. I won't stand for that shiz.

Options means what you can do at any moment with some kind of viablitity (IE. each move has to serve some kind of purpose and actually have a chance of hitting the opponent, Mario's dtilt in Melee doesn't count as an option as there is always something better you can do ALWAYS).

 

[SynikaL]

That video was absolutely pointless.


-Kimo

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Yah......the game isn't like it used to be back when Ken was dominating. If Ken were to play now he'd have to seriously buckle down and technify his game further to even compete. All the platform **** that's done today and the rtimes after different patterns/series of moves would not work in favor of Ken's 2005 dominance.

M2k Marth vs Ken Marth anyone ????? M2k ***** him.


Also......wavedashing is pretty much the preferred mode of travel for all the top tier characters of the cast. Reason being is it's more versatile than any single dash and has relatively low lag/JCancelling properties.

Walk/Wavedash is the way to go.


Most all the addtions to brawl, that you mentioned, are poor equivalents of what was taken out of Melee.
So basically, footstool jumping and multi-airdodging were the only "positive" mentions.




P.S. The ULTRA-ANNOYING CAMPER = Overswarm

 

[Fletch]

Options means what you can do at any moment with some kind of viablitity (IE. each move has to serve some kind of purpose and actually have a chance of hitting the opponent, Mario's dtilt in Melee doesn't count as an option as there is always something better you can do ALWAYS).

Just reminded me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mPTB3O1Msw

 

[lethminite]

very good post, i agree completely.
i am not a competitive player, but some of the arguments people try and use to call brawl uncompetitive simply offend me as a gamer.

"we know everything about brawl after 3 months coz we rock at finding ATs, and that's all there is to depth" seems to summarize what 1/2 the anti-brawl people are saying, which makes 3 assertions, all of which are wrong.

You said just about every thing i've thought when reading those anti-brawl threads, and 100 times better then i could my self.

 

[Yuna]

Just reminded me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mPTB3O1Msw

No/bad DI on both the Dthrow or D-tilt and the Fsmash could've been teched... + the Fsmash wasn't DI:ed either. All in all, the opponent made 4 different mistakes for that to work.

 

[Shai Hulud]

What was removed between Melee and Brawl that decreased options? Pretty much just:
Wavedashing
Dashing dashing
L-Canceling
Hit stun
Light Shielding
Power Shielding

What was added:
Toad stool jumping
Catching items with A attack, Dash attack, and every air attack/dodging
Auto-Canceled air attacks (so, this negates L-canceling as an option going against Brawl)
RARing
Perfect Shielding
Glide tossing
Air dodging multiple times
Less hit-stun
Characters that, simply put, are more complex/have more options because of their move set than any Melee character, for whatever reason (Diddy being a good example, but ROB, Snake and others also exist)

The removals from Melee to Brawl were MAJOR: wavedashing, dash-dancing, L-cancelling, and hit stun in particular. None of the additions you list are anywhere close to the significance of these Melee techniques. Glide tossing a replacement for wavedashing? Are you serious?

 

[Sean²]

The removals from Melee to Brawl were MAJOR: wavedashing, dash-dancing, L-cancelling, and hit stun in particular. None of the additions you list are anywhere close to the significance of these Melee techniques. Glide tossing a replacement for wavedashing? Are you serious?

I think the competitive scene could have done just fine without wavedashing and dash dancing. Those two were just the whipped cream and sprinkles on top of something that was already sickeningly good without.

 

[choknater]

shai hulud is right.

though there are a lot of discoveries in brawl, they don't add up to the MAGNITUDE of change that WD gave to melee.

but anyways, i am neutral because i like both games xDDDD.

 

[Fletch]

No/bad DI on both the Dthrow or D-tilt and the Fsmash could've been teched... + the Fsmash wasn't DI:ed either. All in all, the opponent made 4 different mistakes for that to work.

Yuna, I didn't mean to post that seriously as advocating use for that move (I don't play Mario or know that much about him really), just reminded me of that hilarious video, because I've never seen the d-tilt do something positive before.

 

[JoyfulDoom]

If only the physics of gravity and the hitstun was similar to melee, i'd like brawl alot better. I just hate how high you jump and how long you float. It's like jumping on a small stage with Ike is suicide sometimes.

 

[Repryx]

this
debate is pointless they are different games, play both and enjoy life.


-Ciao

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Yo Chris Brown wtf you doing on the boards.....shouldn't you be singing or dancing or something like that.





































































Heh.....KIDDING, JUST KIDDING

 

[AlphaZealot]

The removals from Melee to Brawl were MAJOR: wavedashing, dash-dancing, L-cancelling, and hit stun in particular. None of the additions you list are anywhere close to the significance of these Melee techniques. Glide tossing a replacement for wavedashing? Are you serious?

Wavedashing: not that big of a deal, and yes, glide tossing does replace this with some characters, not completely, but you can mimic some of the effects.
Dash Dancing: A bigger loss than wavedashing, but again, some characters do have dash dances that are effective.
L-canceling: no loss here, L-canceling was simply replaced with auto-canceling, attacks without auto canceling properties are simply the same as attack in Melee that were still to laggy even when L-canceled.
Hit stun: check the OP, there are two sides to this coin, better defense means 1)the pseudo combos that do happen require quite a bit of prediction and 2)whats wrong with having more defensive options?

 

[RDK]

There's nothing inherently wrong with having more defensive options--it's the fact that Brawl's total offensive options are highly outnumbered by the defensive ones.