The Basics - Updated 2/11/09

[Jam Stunna]

Okay, final draft.

Control

By control, I don't simply mean being able to move your character to the desired position. Control, in the most general sense when it comes to Smash, means that you have effectively precluded the possibilities of your opponent. Movement, spacing, shielding, punishment and all other aspects of competitive Smash are avenues for you to impose your will on your opponent, or in other words, control the match.

A friend of mine said this to me years ago: "Smash is not a game of damage, it's a game of positioning." It took me a while to understand what he meant, but it's made obvious by the term gimp. We all know what a gimp kill is, but it's made possible only through superior positioning. If you're Fox and your opponent is in prime position for a shine spike, then the damage is irrelevant; they are are in a place where the course of the match is now out of their hands, and they must rely on the Fox player to make a mistake. That's where you want to be: you want your opponent to hope that you make a mistake.

Remember though, positioning not only refers to physical placement on the stage, but also the mental position you've placed your opponent in. Mix-ups and utilizing different attacks, varying approaches, de-syncs and shield tricks should be used to fluster and confuse your opponent, so that they make that mistake that will land you a grab. When you place your opponent in a position where he doesn't know what you're going to do next, his options are severely limited. He can no longer predict and act, he can only react. That puts the initiative in your hands, and allows you to control the match.

As IC mains, it's imperative that we win the positioning battle, both physical and mental. As Wobbles pointed out, you will usually be playing from behind in most circumstances, as all of the top and high tiers can eat the IC's lunch if given the opportunity. We don't have any "home run" attacks like Fox's shine or Falcon's knee (sorry Binx, couldn't help it ), so if a match turns on a dime, it will not be in your favor. Limit your opponent's options. Put him in an unfavorable position. Exert your will over him. Control the match, and control your own destiny. It's the only way to win.

 

[wisl]

good read.
just confirming that there are new people reading this stuff.

 

[Binx]

Thanks wisl, which sections have been most helpful for you?

And Sauna (Jam) you'll understand that if you read the section on control you wrote in the main guide =) we should hang out at Genesis, I think all the IC mains should meet and be like yo whats up, team meeting and stuff, lets go ****.

 

[wisl]

well, a lot of the basics I sort of know (spacing, punishing,...).
but I tend to forget when I'm actually playing, that those things are the most important. So reading this as a reminder helps, reminds me to stop slacking at stuff that should be me first priority.

And then stuff like the approach examples, a lot of that I didn't know.

 

[Binx]

Always try

If you are not in the mindset to win you can't win. Period.

If I fought M2K, I have to believe that if I tried my absolute hardest not to make any mistakes, and try my absolute hardest to take advantage of ANY spacing or move choice mistake that I would have a chance to win. If I believe it then it at least has a chance of happening.

If I don't believe I can win a match I might not play at my very best, either acting more fearful or thinking about the problem instead of the solution. The problem in this stance would be thinking general negative thoughts, he's too good for me, I'll probably only be able to kill him twice, wow he's fast, oh crap what do I do. None of these focus on the solution, he's spacing fair this way I had better try this, oh that didn't work, oh well how about this, okay lets try and bait this, ect. Try to get in their head, don't let fear or overconfidence into your game, it'll cost you a lot of matches.

 

[wisl]

a month or so ago I went to my first two tournaments, and I get so nervous when playing the good smashers, I completely stop thinking. I hope I get in the right mindset next time.

 

[wisl]

You might actually improve, lol. A few people in SoCal, myself included, more or less stopped playing Melee for a while, and when we finally came back to our senses and got back into Melee, we ended up being better than before.

well I saw you did really good at SCSA, congrats.
do you always get placements like that?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I usually do really well, although this was the first pretty big tourney at which I got top three.

 

[PB&J]

every time i fight m2k i just try to **** him like he tries to **** me..and that works..but when im playing auto pilote. and he is playing auto...i should just put the controller down..so i liearned that all icy mains should learn to be more consistent, even in friendlies...and at genesis ill see all u punks lets have a nana huddle or something..i wont be hard to find..

 

[Binx]

Focus is important, tournament experience is really valuable as well, I'd say attending one tournament (even a small one ~10 people) is probably better than playing friendlies every day for a month. Also good money matches are good, if you money match someone at your own skill level they should all be intense and will help train you. Big tournaments get you even better experience.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Thanks wisl, which sections have been most helpful for you?

And Sauna (Jam) you'll understand that if you read the section on control you wrote in the main guide =) we should hang out at Genesis, I think all the IC mains should meet and be like yo whats up, team meeting and stuff, lets go ****.

Haha, nice. I won't be at Genesis, but hopefully we'll meet up someday. Here's something I was thinking about in the shower:

Creativity

So I just watched Wobbles' utterly amazing videos. Naturally, we were all impressed by his ledge chaingrab, but more important I think was his last kill in the second match. As opposed to going for the standard dthrow => usmash, he instead had Nana charge an fsmash, and had Popo throw backwards into the fsmash.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I've never seen that before, and that vein of spontaneity and creativity is what you want to tap into as an IC main. The fact that there are two of them that can operate independently of each other opens a world of possibilities, and gives the IC main options and flexibility that doesn't exist for other players. Use it!

Everyone tries to play the ICs like how Chu Dat does or Wobbles, myself included. Well, don't. You can't be Wobbles, so don't even try. Instead, look to them for inspiration in your own creative endeavors with the Ice Climbers. Have a crazy idea or off-the-wall strategy? Go for it in the same spirit as those who blazed the trail before you. Both Chu and Wobbles have found their own ways to win by doing something we've never seen before. That can be you as well, so long as you don't try and copy, and instead try to create.

 

[wisl]

^good read, but I wouldn't call that 'basics'. no?

 

[Jam Stunna]

I think it's pretty basic to figure out how to best utilize both of your Ice Climbers.

 

[Binx]

Developing your own style is definitely important, but it happens naturally even as you try to copy someones playstyle, for example I've been trying to learn to play like Chu since I started with the ICs and its really hard, because he spaces SO well, and is SO smart, even though he doesn't really do anything technical it's just difficult to emulate his efficient style. Plus when I try to use certain moves the way he does, like our Fair, I get punished a lot, now I just plain don't know if its because I don't practice using it enough or if he just spaces it that much better than me, a bit of both I'm sure.

Then I try to learn things from Wobbles, the amount of pressure he puts on when he gets the chance to be aggressive is amazing, I don't know if there is a more feared Ice Climber player than Wobbles, even peach, who was previously difficult to combo in a grab has to worry about being too close to a platform or ledge cause Wobbles doesn't not kill you when he grabs you. I even remember reading his reasoning for why he punishes the way he does, its because he had so much trouble getting even a single grab on players like Taj and Forward that when he did grab them he HAD to kill them or he had very little chance of winning the match.

Your own style will evolve the more you play, and the more people you play. Being creative is important though, and so is not just sticking to one strategy, I know there are many times I've become overly predictable. And all I had to do was realize what I was doing in the match and switch it up now and again.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah, the first thing I thought when I saw those Wobbles vids was, "I can't wait to try that!" But realistically speaking, I'm nowhere near skilled and/or technical enough to pull that off. It's important to work within your own limitations and find something that works for you. I guess that was the point I was trying to make in a roundabout way.

 

[Binx]

I wish I could pretend I were technical enough right now to do what wobbles does =)

I have gotten much better at doing complicated things but I doubt I could pull that stuff off in a match yet. I really should practice my ledgegrabs before genesis.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I wish I were technical. I have really odd problems; for example, I can ledge CG lightweight characters fine as long as I can dthrow consistently, but I have hard time doing dthrows and often accidentally bthrow instead. It's a really bizarre problem I've never been able to fix in my year or so of going to tourneys.

 

[Binx]

Sounds like a controller issue, also I know that sometimes I angle my controller slightly without noticing it, for really serious matches I try to keep it at a consistent angle.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Whenever I chaingrab I'm really careful with my control stick because it's loose, and if I let go of it quickly it flicks back into a f-throw/b-throw. Unfortunately I'm stuck with this controller because my timing relies so much on the broken-in L-button. ;_;

I LCG heavy characters and spacies pretty well. For some reason I have a lot of trouble doing it consistently on Sheik/Marth, even though they're the only characters I practice it on...

 

[Binx]

I don't practice it enough at all, I tried it the other day and I thought I had it, it seems like the timing changes a little based on percent.

 

[NOHK]

this all helps so very much, and having spoken to alot of the IC players in this thread (Kyu, Chok, Wobbles) and all of the tips, tchniques, advice ive gotten from these threads/players has been unbelievably helpful and as a fairly new (who the **** am i kidding, im new as ****.) IC main this is an this a crazy source of all the information i need to some day become a mediocre player. and maybe with enough *** whoopings i can become alright :D so i definitely wanna thank all you guys for helping me along because again as a new IC mainer it really is appreciated.

 

[Binx]

Thanks for the feedback, the match up thread is a great place for info too, the key really is to play though, and just focus on implementing 1 thing at a time, I personally like to overuse the things I am trying to learn until I've got them down pretty well, like when I started learning platform wavelanding I basically just did constantly in matches for no reason until I could do it without being sluggish or predictable, it turned out that it really opened my game up a lot with other characters, ICs don't fall fast enough for me to use it too often.

But yeah practice with a purpose, I'm pretty sure thats a wobbles thread which was amazing to read.

 

[PB&J]

fly- it might be a controller prob..i went through so many controllers i learned that purple ones are the best then black ones...on another note i was playing today and was ****** with that ledge chain grab on this peach..it felt great...unlike other people i already knew about the chain grab when wobbles showed it to me before so i really didnt have to practice it..so nana is **** and icy's are great..im going to **** face at genesis and i mean top players too.

 

[Binx]

I'll see you there PB&J, I'm gonna win the tournament though =)

 

[PB&J]

I'll see you there PB&J, I'm gonna win the tournament though =)

u have to get through the south first and even chu has problems with some of us, but i like your spirit..i would love to see an icy main win genesis.nana would be happy

 

[Wobbles]

Hmm... I was messing around a little in training mode and I came up with some things that might be useful to think about. They mostly involve the edge.

Getting invincible wavedashes from the ledge is based on three things: how quickly you drop from the ledge, how quickly you jump after that, and how quickly you waveland. Doing it all perfectly gets you a lot of invincible distance.

A good way to practice the first step, the drop, is to go into training mode and double jump then fall to the edge. Your goal is to let go of the ledge fast enough that Nana can grab it without dying. Once you can do that, start fast falling and have her get the edge--if she's dying, you're doing it wrong.

Also, try and learn the maximum vertical distance of SoPo's up+b for grabbing the edge, as well as the distance on his air dodges. When people start edge-hogging your up+b and air dodge recoveries, you also need to learn how low you can forward+b and still recover; it's surprisingly low. Not as low as up+b, but at least you land on the level.

Oh yeah, and something to remember about up+b is that it will keep a TINY bit of your horizontal momentum. If you drop down and go backwards before doing it, you may accidentally SD because of that momentum. This shouldn't happen as long as you know how far Popo's horizontal reach is, but it's something to be aware of.

Something else to be aware of; if an opponent uses an aerial on a platform and you shield it, you'll fall off (duh). What's interesting is that if you go off backwards you will be forced to tech on the ground, but if you go off facing forwards you won't. This means you can light shield and get yourself forced off the platform, then do a b-air. It's not the kind of situation you can really create intentionally, but if you can recognize that it's coming you could react with an aerial. It especially comes in handy in doubles when you could suddenly switch targets and hit an opponent.

(On accident I've used that situation to suddenly do a double squall back into my opponent, got about 15 percent, then flew away. It was awesome and I totally pretended I did it on purpose. Yayhuzz.)

Last, pay attention to your traction; I used to SD a LOT because I'd slide off the stage and do aerials without Nana nearby. You will slide off when CC'ing, when wavedashing (even with a smash), sometimes you'll dash attack and STILL slide off, opponents have an easy time nudging you off just by being near you... it's crazy.

Umm... yep. Huzzah.

 

[PB&J]

im gonna try this out son ..right now

 

[Wobbles]

Also, anybody who wants to try and win Genesis will also have to go through me, because *I* intend--very seriously, with no hint of irony or sarcasm--to win it. That is actually why I've been posting so much--reading the boards encourages me to explore and gain more knowledge.

I'm using you all. Feel dirty.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

someone add edge gaurd

 

[Binx]

You don't need edgeguarding with ICs, all you need is grabz ^_^;;

@ Wobbles : I hope one of us wins.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah or a low tier main that would be cool and they would change the tier list again ,but go wobbles i really wish i could be there and watch the final match , you up 2 stocks and then you start wobbling out of habit and blow the whole thing (just kidding but you have a good chance)

 

[Binx]

Doubt they would change the tier list again, but if they did hopefully ICs do well enough to knock Falcon down one,

Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco
Cheap (haha)
ICs
Puff
Falcon

I think this is how it should look XD after all of us IC mains tear it up at Genesis

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i was saying if a low tier won it , but really Ice climber can't rise unless we discover a perfect antimarth stra. or something like that

 

[Binx]

IC could rise, we are working on Peach right now, seems like Wobbles has almost cracked the code, after her its just Marth, and Fox and then we would go close to even with everyone. We need an anokoku list to show all the tournament points for melee the same way they are doing in brawl, then we would know for sure how placings are.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I want to be the first to know when the code is cracked. I went to a round robin yesterday and the only people I lost to were Fox and Peach players. It's very frustrating to fight characters who have moves that seem like they were designed specifically to **** over the ICs.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

dude play as pichu and then every character feels overpowered other than bowser

 

[Circa]

Well...I've read through the entire thread and I can honestly say thank you for posting this. It helps out quite a bit. Especially for a newbie. Well...I'm not quite a newbie, but I've just started to get into the idea of hitting the competitive scene and thus have just started into using AT...so yeah. Anyway...

This guide was also very inspirational, I found. And if not for anything else, then at least Jam's small portion on creativity (which still needs to be added to the main post...as a reminder) and Binx's add-on to that about how, inevitably, every IC player has a different method of fighting than other IC users. This was inspirational to all who feel as though they'd have fun being ICs, but think they're too complicated to use effectively. Exploration of ability is a key viewpoint of using ICs. Without that, you may as well just hang up your hammer and call it a day. x_x

As far as creativity goes, I'm using my current lack of skill and lack of ability to fluidly desynch to hopefully create something called n00b tactics, in which I play some sort of messed up mindgame where I look like a complete n00b of an IC (using seemingly accidental desynchs and horrible chaingrabs) to actually destroy my opponent. As you guys are probably thinking though, this is absolutely ******** and should be an immediately scrapped tact, but I'm still going to venture into it a bit...who knows? Maybe it'll be effective. Anything really is possible with ICs, after all.

I'm planning to go to Genesis as well, so hopefully I can meet you guys there. ^.^ I'm not really going to win, as I already know that isn't going to happen, but I am hoping to at least take out a few people. That'd be quite an accomplishment for me, I think...

Oh, and...is this thread sticky-able? If so, then I think it should be. It does cover a large portion of using ICs, after all.

 

[Binx]

Thanks. As for newb tactics I would like to direct you to this professional match.

Drephen (Marth) vs Darkrain (Falcon) - 2 years ago

These kinds of tactics don't work as well anymore but if you hit with a "dangerous"(laggy) move it ceases to be dangerous, but it's solely dependent on your ability to predict your opponent, the really bad part about it though is that the higher level of skill your opponents develop the more you get punished for playing that way.

Just remember to play smart, always look at your opponent and be as dynamic as possible, think inside your opponents head and control yourself by reaction and muscle memory. After you play long enough (for most it takes about a year, don't give up) or with good enough people for a while, you really learn how to do this, it becomes second nature.

 

[Wobbles]

timssu: it's hard to pull something like that off with the ICs because if it's effective, it's effective. People will notice that you're KO'ing them, and stupid will translate into flashy.

If you *aren't* being effective then... you're losing. I mean, you can be off the wall and wacky, and there ARE some dumb looking de-syncs that actually work, like jumping forward+b out of shield and the "whoops" de-sync. Most other dumb looking tricks *are* bad ideas though and that just means you lose. I don't want to kill your fun or anything, but that's just what happens. On the other hand, there's a psychological edge you gain when it looks like you don't know what you're doing. If a newbie randomly tippered M2K you wouldn't think he had amazing spacing, you'd think he got lucky, and you'd be right. On the other hand, if somebody genuinely good gets a tipper but it appears random (i.e., Azen) you know something is up but you don't know what.

Here's some stuff that looks really stupid but works:

--Jumping forward+b
--"Accidental" b-throws into ice-blocks.
--Smashing people out of grabs when you should be CG'ing -- it ruins DI, especially against fast fallers, and can get you low percent KOs and edgeguards. Just use forward c-stick and you get a really ugly looking f-smash from the grab.
--"Whoops" de-sync: jump up to a platform like you're going to waveland but air-dodge early so you miss. If you time it right (it's hard), Nana wavelands and you just airdodge, but she remains under your control, letting you blizzard.

 

[Binx]

@ Wobbles - Wow haha, whoops desynch ^_^ nice.

Also I don't know about you guys but people crouch cancel too much now days and it really throws off random stuff you used to be able to do. I guess it means more grab opportunity though.
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Edge Guarding

Ice Climbers tend to get most of their kills on the stage from grabs or unexpected and poorly DIed smashes. However it is important to note that when the situation occurs and you have a chance at an edge guard that you should make it count and end the stock with that much less fighting.

Without further adieu some strategies

vs a Fox or Falco who uses Firefox and you are in a position to prevent a downward sweetspot with a blizzard, or they are in a bad position to sweetspot from underneath - You can​

• Spot dodge, have Nana blizzard, then forward smash them
• if they are going for a sweetspot and can't make the stage wavedash back, hog the ledge with a roll and watch gleefully as they tumble to their doom.
• time your wavedash so you will get some invincibility then ledge hop a dair poking them back off the stage forcing bad spacing on their part that you can punish with a downsmash or forward smash, different smashes have varying levels of appropriateness depending on many things such as amount of time you have to get the smash off to the proximity of you and them to the ledge, practice and use your best judgment.
• ledge hop and uair when they go above you, then bair them off the ledge. Repeat as necessary
• vs a forward b sweetspot from a spacie, you can belay edgehog if you time it well, or just time a wavedash and edgehog.
• vs all characters if they miss a sweetspot forward or downsmash depending on timing/spacing.
• vs samus you can try to disrupt her bomb recoveries with ice blocks, synched or desynched.
• the character match up thread should have the most effective edgeguard tactics vs most characters, but these basics will give you an idea of how to do it.