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The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

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CaliburChamp

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Heh, so you guys dont think Im smart just because I believe in the Bible. I believe in science too, but science has proven false at times, the Bible never misleads the people, its their Priests that do. The Bible was always proven true of its evidences of life. The Bible has Science to it as well, the historical science that has scientific evidence before our existence, like how the Earth was created, and the expanse universe. And the Bible was made so many years ago before man even knew of a universe and other planets.
As for creation, atoms had to come about before life came about because atoms are part of everything. Where did atoms come from? As for the amino acids theory, snex. Where did Amino Acids come about? And you ask how God came about? Okay then, how can one atom create the whole universe? There had to be a great mind to put all these elements together to create the universe. Hmm, whats more reasonable, a single atom creating the universe or a God creating the universe?
BTW, Master Foot, Dont underestimate my intelligence.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Originally posted by McFox
Well, Carbon comes from atoms that have six electrons swirling around it, as opposed to five electrons (Boron), four electrons (Beryllium), etc. etc. These are naturally forming atoms, they are what originally made up the Earth.
Technically, no, Carbonn is defined as having 6 protons. It on it's own will have 6 electrons, but electrons are shared and lost and gained in different situations but the protons don't change. If Carbon loses an electron, it just becomes C+. If it loses a proton, it becomes Boron.

On a different note, weren't you a Catholic, 9? Did you deconvert?

-B
 

McFox

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Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
On a different note, weren't you a Catholic, 9? Did you deconvert?[/B]
Yeah, I did. If you're wondering why, it's because everything that CaliburChamp has posted so far has made no sense to me. It doesn't seem rational to me to believe in an invisible, omnibenevolent, omniscient God would loves us and will send us to ****.

I was brought up in a Catholic home, and I haven't found the heart in me to tell my parents yet :/.

CaliburChamp
The Bible has Science to it as well, the historical science that has scientific evidence before our existence, like how the Earth was created, and the expanse universe.
Let me ask this then:

Where is the Garden of Eden?
Where is Noah's Ark?
Where are the remains of the Tower of Babel?
Where did all the dinosaurs go?
How old is the Earth? Is it only several thousands years, or millions? If millions, when did man come about?

Feel free to tackle any of these in any order you want to, or not at all.
 

salaboB

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I'm afraid that many of those don't have answers that we know...but lack of evidence is not evidence against, or evolution would be screwed as well. I can only put a few answers out. The rest, we don't know.

-Where is the Garden of Eden?
Hidden from us, we don't know how.

-Where is Noah's Ark?
Either sitting on a mountain somewhere...or, they probably dissasembled it after they were done with it, there was an awful lot of building materials in the ark (imo, that seems pretty likely)

-Where are the remains of the Tower of Babel?
Probably destroyed and scattered, although they could be buried under rubble and we just haven't found them.

-How old is the Earth? Is it only several thousands years, or millions? If millions, when did man come about?
Isn't this what the whole debate about creationism vs. evolution is? I think the best answer is that we can't seem to figure it out.



Now, you apparently have a commonly held misconception about ****. There's actually a lot of debate about the exact nature among various Christians, but a general consensus is that if people don't accept Christ (in one way or another) then it's not a matter of God wishing to send them away, but them actually opposing God, so he allows them to be where they want to be. **** is eternal seperation from God, but isn't that what you say you're choosing right now? As far as all the images of fire go, we don't know if they'll actually be present, or if they were just showing how awful it would be to live in a world without God present at all. So, to put it another way: Your choice of how to live in this life sets your path for eternity. People tend to become more and more rigid as they make decisions (Think how hard it is for an alcoholic to break free) and in this particular case, they just end up that way, voluntarily, forever. God didn't put them there or make them reject Him, they chose to do so themselves, and He loved them enough to give them the free will to do so.

If you're not allowed to suffer the consequences, is it really free will?
 

McFox

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Originally posted by salaboB
I'm afraid that many of those don't have answers that we know...but lack of evidence is not evidence against, or evolution would be screwed as well.
There is evidence for evolution. Check the other topic.

Now, you apparently have a commonly held misconception about ****. There's actually a lot of debate about the exact nature among various Christians, but a general consensus is that if people don't accept Christ (in one way or another) then it's not a matter of God wishing to send them away, but them actually opposing God, so he allows them to be where they want to be. **** is eternal seperation from God, but isn't that what you say you're choosing right now? As far as all the images of fire go, we don't know if they'll actually be present, or if they were just showing how awful it would be to live in a world without God present at all. So, to put it another way: Your choice of how to live in this life sets your path for eternity. People tend to become more and more rigid as they make decisions (Think how hard it is for an alcoholic to break free) and in this particular case, they just end up that way, voluntarily, forever. God didn't put them there or make them reject Him, they chose to do so themselves, and He loved them enough to give them the free will to do so.
That's all well and fine. That's the new interpretation of hell anyway. It's just the absence of God.

But keep in mind that in the Book of Revelation, it explains very clearly that hell is a place of fire and burning and torture and pain for all non-Christians.

Not just the Book of Revelation. The horrors of hell (and numerous references specifically to "fire") can be found all over the Bible. So are you going with the Bible's version of hell, or the modern, Catholic interpretation? Remember:

CaliburChamp
I believe in science too, but science has proven false at times, the Bible never misleads the people, its their Priests that do.
According to his logic, hell is a place of fire and burning and torture, and the priests of today are just trying to mislead you.
 

Superbus

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People need religion such as Cristianity as crutch because they cant face the reality of death, and not knowing where they are going and where they came from.
See, now this makes me mad. Religion isn't a "crutch" for the less intelligent. It is something that people, many of them highly intelligent, believe in hoping that it will make them a better person and guide them to eternal salvation. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it is for idiots.

As for McFox: As I said earlier, I think many Christians do not necessarily focus on the literal parts of the Bible. For most of us, the important part (save the Gospel), is the message. Things like The Garden of Eden and the Tower of Babel could very well just be symbolic things, not factual things. The only thing in the Bible that a Christian should accept as true is the life of Jesus. Not everything in the Gospels is necessarily true, but it is essential for a Christian to believe that Jesus the man lived. As for everything else, I believe that most of the events are ROOTED in truth, but word for word, I don't know.



EDIT:
But keep in mind that in the Book of Revelation, it explains very clearly that **** is a place of fire and burning and torture and pain for all non-Christians.
The Book of Revelations is a purely symbolic book. Besides that, it also works on two levels. The first one, the one you are missing, is that it was meant to comfort Christians of the time (who were being fed to lions and such). It is meant to show them that their enemies will eventually get what they deserve. Now, the second level is the symbolic one. The book was written by John while he was in exile and is riddled with numbers and symbols that many scholars believe was him communicating to his friends.

Also, the new interpretation of **** isn't new, its the old one. In the old testament, and in Judaism, **** is just distance from God. More later, I got to go.
 

McFox

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Originally posted by Superbus
See, now this makes me mad. Religion isn't a "crutch" for the less intelligent. It is something that people, many of them highly intelligent, believe in hoping that it will make them a better person and guide them to eternal salvation. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it is for idiots.
I agree. Some people just feel that they need to rely on their faith. I have enough faith in what I believe in, which is nothing.

As for McFox: As I said earlier, I think many Christians do not necessarily focus on the literal parts of the Bible. For most of us, the important part (save the Gospel), is the message. Things like The Garden of Eden and the Tower of Babel could very well just be symbolic things, not factual things. The only thing in the Bible that a Christian should accept as true is the life of Jesus. Not everything in the Gospels is necessarily true, but it is essential for a Christian to believe that Jesus the man lived. As for everything else, I believe that most of the events are ROOTED in truth, but word for word, I don't know.
Most of my arguments are directly against CaliburChamp, so don't take anything I say personally. He just keeping toting the Bible as Absolute Law, so I want to know what he says about that. If you don't believe it word-for-word, more power to you.
 

salaboB

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If you believe the Bible word for word, you got a real problem with Song of Songs.

As I said, I don't know what to do with all the fire references. Either they're symbols representing the horror that will be sheol, and I , or there actually will be fire and eternal pain. It's hard to say. Regardless though, as in everything, it's not too critical on the exact way sheol will be: It will be an unpleasant place, seperated from God. Heaven is described using allegories, why would sheol be any different? (I'm not 100% sure sheol is exactly ****, but I got tired of ****...and it's pretty close if it's not)
 

Nic64

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Do you guys think you'll change everyone by disproving anything bible related?
Only some people are like this. I'm content to let christians be the way they are provided that they have the same view toward me.

I see the christian's journey alot more - appealing - as in this. Christians try their hardest (or are commanded to) to go out and convert many people to their religion. They beleive by doing so - the new converts go to heaven (not **** ) (It's not that simple but - there it is in a nutshell). Aetheists on the other hand usually disreguard heaven and **** , am I right?
I'd have to disagree with the appealing part...being threatened with eternal torture isn't my idea of appealing but w/e.

But what harm have the christians done to you guys that makes you wanna bash on them? They just beleive that you are going to **** and wouldn't like to see you burn there forever because they care for you. So if heaven is not true, whynot just ignore them and let them live their christian lifes? They aren't causing any harm doing so.
Again, not all of us are like that.

However, the atheistic people who bash on religion just for the **** of it piss me off
I agree, idk if you've ever been to gamefaqs, but if you've ever been there and to the LUE board...some guy named Dark Cobra there was a perfect example of this idiocy.

do so because they believe that religon is harmful to humanity
I considered this for a brief period, but ended up deciding that religion was only used as a cover for many atrocities...they would've happened anyway, and were a result of human evil. Well, that's just one side though, others have brought up how it also slows development and such.

All other evidence aside however...how do you explain a species like humans not only being created by god, but even being favored? I don't think a being of supreme benevolence and foresight would create a species as cruel as us. Taking a look through history, current events, and the path the world seems to be on...it really seems impossible that we were created by a something that new what we would become and was benevolent.
 

Mike da King

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Actually BBT, carbon atoms must have 6 electrons AND 6 protons, since atoms are electrically neutral. A carbon "atom" with less than 6 electrons is really an ion.

Anywho,
quote:

Originally posted by Superbus
See, now this makes me mad. Religion isn't a "crutch"
for the less intelligent. It is something that people,
many of them highly intelligent, believe in hoping that it
will make them a better person and guide them to
eternal salvation. Just because you don't believe it
doesn't mean it is for idiots.




I agree. Some people just feel that they need to rely on their faith.
You just explained what is meant by "crutch," hahaha [laughs heartily].
 

CaliburChamp

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WHY DOES GOD PERMIT WICKEDNESS?

AT SOME time in your life, you may have asked: ‘If God exists, why does he permit suffering?’ or, ‘If suffering exists by God’s permission, why for such a long time?’ Questions of this nature are difficult to resolve, especially when related to the Holocaust, which perhaps more than any other single occurrence has become the ultimate symbol of human suffering. In their efforts to find an explanation, some deny the existence of God, whereas others deny the existence of evil. Are such conclusions realistic? Does a satisfying answer exist?

2 Some assert that questions of this nature should not even be asked. However, faithful prophets, such as Habakkuk, did not feel it improper to make such inquiries. Habakkuk asked God: “How long, O LORD, shall I cry out and You not listen, shall I shout to You, ‘Violence!’ and You not save? Why do You make me see iniquity why do You look upon wrong?â€â€”Habakkuk 1:2,_3.

3 Unfortunately, there are those who are unable to accept any answer, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. Cruel events and man’s brutality have impeded their capacity for impartial analysis. So the person seeking an answer must honestly evaluate his own disposition as well as the reasonableness of the explanation given.

Putting the Blame Where It Belongs

4 God is not, and never has been, a party to man’s crimes. However, certain religious teachings convey that idea, making the matter even more complicated. For instance, beliefs affirming that this world is a testing ground for a future life and that through death God “takes†loved ones, even small children, make it appear that he is personally responsible for accidents, crimes, and disasters. The same can be said concerning the doctrines of predestination and fate. There are also those who try to explain the Holocaust in terms of ‘divine punishment for the worldliness of the European Jews’ or as ‘God’s way to make the world realize the need for a Jewish State.’ Many may find such rationalizations not only unacceptable but also offensive.

5 Do not such beliefs malign God? Is it not man, rather than God, who has been responsible for all the injustices committed throughout the centuries? (Ecclesiastes 8:9) It is as historian Arnold Toynbee stated: “Human beings are unique in being able to be wicked, because they are unique in being conscious of what they are doing and in making deliberate choices.†So man’s misuse of his own free will has resulted in untold suffering. Then why did not God create him in such a way that he could not harm his fellowman?

6 Man was created in God’s “image†and with the gift of free will. (Genesis 1:26) Were that not the case, man would not be able to experience the satisfaction and joy associated with spontaneously doing good things for others. Conscience would have no meaning, and man’s existence would be similar to that of lower forms of life. Free will is a blessing for man and makes him human, rather than a robot. But free will implies freedom of choice, including a wrong or a harmful choice. However, accepting the fact that God is not responsible for evil does not answer the questions: Why does he permit it? and Why did he not put an immediate end to suffering?

How Could God Allow It?

7 Why does evil exist when there is a power capable of stopping it? The Bible’s answer to this question is found primarily in the account concerning the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. Chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis relate that they chose to disobey God by eating from “the tree of knowledge of good and bad.†Important issues were raised by their disobedience. The one who induced them to rebel (see box, page_13) did so by saying: “You are not going to die,†thus bringing into question God’s truthfulness, since God had clearly stated that disobedience would be punished by death. (Genesis 2:17; 3:4) The tempter continued by saying: “God knows that as soon as you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like divine beings who know good and bad.†(Genesis 3:5) The clear implication was that God was unjustly holding something back from them. Thus doubts were cast upon the validity of God’s laws and his way of governing. This constituted an attack on God’s sovereignty, on his very right to be the only and absolute_Ruler_of humankind.

8 Profound issues had been raised: Does man really need God’s guidance to govern himself and the entire earth successfully? If not, then perhaps God was unjust in demanding obedience from him. If man is capable of ruling himself, why should God be the one to decide what is right and wrong for man? Execution of the lawbreakers would not have provided an answer to these questions. Only with the passage of time would humans demonstrate man’s inability to govern himself effectively.


This is what proves my point.
 

snex

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those quotes prove nothing. they assume that the christian god exists and that the bible is truth. you have not proven either of these, so your post was a waste of time.
 

Zeeky H Bomb

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Im a catholic (Christian isnt it?) myself, i have only read 1 verse of the bible (Well sort of). It's stories are true and not true. The truth comes from it's teachings. The stories are not made to inflict fear or anything, but rather to use as guidelines for christians to live a good and peaceful life. Why would god instill fear in his children?
 

McFox

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Originally posted by Zeeky H Bomb
Im a catholic (Christian isnt it?) myself, i have only read 1 verse of the bible (Well sort of). It's stories are true and not true. The truth comes from it's teachings. The stories are not made to inflict fear or anything, but rather to use as guidelines for christians to live a good and peaceful life. Why would god instill fear in his children?
That's the current teachering of the church, anyway, until they decide to change their minds :rolleyes:.
 

Superbus

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You just explained what is meant by "crutch," hahaha [laughs heartily].
No, you took two things out of context (meaning the posts they were responding to). Religion is a tool for betterment for most people, but some people need it to help them through hard times. My point is that religion is not something people believe in because they are dumb and want to feel better about themselves, hence "Religion isn't a 'crutch' for the less intelligent"
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Main Entry: ion
Pronunciation: 'I-&n, 'I-"än
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek, neuter of iOn, present participle of ienai to go -- more at ISSUE
1 : an atom or group of atoms that carries a positive or negative electric charge as a result of having lost or gained one or more electrons

nope, looks like ions are a subset of atoms.

-B
 

Superbus

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See, this is where most people get confused. At the time that the new testament was written (the old testament makes little reference to eternal punishment), Christianity was a fledgling religion. Christians were a much persecuted minority. So, most references to eternal punishment are there to comfort Christians in that their enemies will get their just desserts. (Note I said most, because there is the time that Jesus tells his disciples that it is better to lose an arm than go to ****, but the main point of that parable is that you should remove what is causing you to sin.) In fact, that is the entire basis for the book of revelation. Anyways, what happened was that men have turned the **** references from comfort to fear. Church officials have used it to scare people into line. This is not the way God intended.
 

snex

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funny, dont christians say that gods intentions are known only to him? who are you to say what god intended? you dont know any more about him than i do.
 

Mediocre

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funny, dont christians say that gods intentions are known only to him? who are you to say what god intended? you dont know any more about him than i do.
'Fraid not. He cites the bible in his post, which Christians tend to accept as God's word, revealing his intentions.
 

Mike da King

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Lets see what NASA thinks:
In an atom, the number of electrons that orbit the nucleus equals the number of protons in the nucleus, thus making an atom electrically neutral. When bombarded by ultraviolet (UV) radiation or after being struck by energetic particles, atoms can lose one or more of their electrons. The positively charged remains of these atoms are called ions. The number of electrons lost determines the charge state of the particle. For example, alpha particles are helium nuclei with a double positive charge; they have two protons and two neutrons, but no electrons.
 

Peaches

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Originally posted by Mediocre
Because God is a sadist.

Duh.
maybe we're all masochists and he's just being nice.

Did you know that fear usually means respect in the Bible? Kinda interesting fact.
 

CaliburChamp

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Originally posted by snex
those quotes prove nothing. they assume that the christian god exists and that the bible is truth. you have not proven either of these, so your post was a waste of time.
I was just trying to prove something to McFox with the information I provided. Sometime this week when Im not busy, I will tell you why some scientist DO believe in God. And why ignore something as important as the Bible? Thats like saying that you dont believe in history books. Open Your Mind!

Peaches: Nice man! You hit that one right on the dot! ^_^
 

snex

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And why ignore something as important as the Bible? Thats like saying that you dont believe in history books. Open Your Mind!
actually its more like saying i dont believe in peter pan. do you believe in peter pan? the book says he exists.
 

McFox

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To Superbus:

So, are you saying we shouldn't be afraid of hell? Or that it doesn't exist? No matter who's saying it, and no matter how nice they're telling the story, eternal damnation is going to be pretty frightening.

CaliburChamp:

Like snex said, those don't prove anything. That's just a list of excuses to make when asked if God is real, and why he "does" the strange things that atheists find to be flawed.
 

Superbus

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So, are you saying we shouldn't be afraid of ****? Or that it doesn't exist? No matter who's saying it, and no matter how nice they're telling the story, eternal ****ation is going to be pretty frightening.
You're right, **** is a scary concept. My point was that God doesn't want His children's lives to be dominated by fear. He wants people to know that if you lead a good life, you have nothing to fear. He also wants His followers to know that the people that made their life hard are going to get whats coming to them. That is actually very ingenious. It's much easier to survive persecution when you believe that the person who is persecuting is going to burn forever for it. In the same token, men have warped this concept (and many others such as Papal Infallibility) and used it to strike fear. Case in point "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God".

Now, as you said, **** is still going to be frightening. While the fear aspect of it cannot be denied, it is important to keep everything in context. It is important to know that God does not wish for us to spend every second of every day cowering in fear, but rather looking excitedly forward to salvation.

*leaves pulpit*
 

snex

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He wants people to know that if you lead a good life, you have nothing to fear.
superbus, as long as you follow these arbitrary rules i set for you, you dont have to fear me sneaking into your house at night and killing you in your sleep. these are the rules:

always stand on one foot.
every morning pray to snex.
honor thy venus fly trap.
you shall not covet your neighbor's game system.

that is all.
 

CahPhoenix

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Well...what if he did follow those rules snex. You would be bound to not kill him. Same thing applies to the Christian God. He(not god) believes those are the rules God set, thus he follows them...only the reward is not a life free snex murders, but eternal salvation etc... All your statement really did was mock what many ppl believe in. Yes you can come up with rules just as every religion has rules or guidelines. So what...does that make the religious rules/guidelines untrue just because people mock or make fun of the followers or the religion itself? No, I think not.

Also, not to only reply to you but every time I see your name I must argue with you :p I don't know why. Your statement about knowing God's intentions. Many followers of Christianity pray to god. They "walk" with god so my roomate says and talk with him in a way. In this they recieve God's word and know his intentions. Of course, you would have to have faith that God exists to find out if this is or isn't true, but if you believed in the first place you can't find out otherwise. Thus creating a kind of perfect vacuum where proof of God is impossible. Anyways, my thoughts take em or leave em.
 

inkslingerMasher

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There was a man named Jesus. He didn't have long hair because ppl in israel are forced to cut it, back in those days. He was married (to Mary)just like all ppl there in Israel that were old enough. How in the **** is he able to carry that heavy cross for such a long distance? What god gave them those powers, pls. I believe there is a god, but I don't belive in Jesus.
 

snex

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cah, the point of my post is to reply to the idea that god doesnt intend to control us by fear. it doesnt matter how much he claims he loves us, as long as we are punished by not following his rules, he is using fear as a means of control.

just like if you dont want me killing you in your sleep, you should follow the rules i listed. but if you follow those rules, you have nothing to fear, right? see how i am using fear to keep you in line?
 

Superbus

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Yeah, but the difference is that I believe the Christian faith. I don't believe in the snex faith. As part of the faith, I follow God's guidelines. And my point is, that Christians should not live in fear. Does fear serve as a motivator? Yes. Does God want it to rule our lives? No. BTW, snex, I'm just going to point this out. The guy who is flooding the moderators' inboxes reporting abuses is sitting here mocking my faith.

just like if you dont want me killing you in your sleep, you should follow the rules i listed. but if you follow those rules, you have nothing to fear, right? see how i am using fear to keep you in line?
Once again, this isn't using fear because I do not believe you snex. I believe God. And if you believe in God and follow His teachings, you really should't fear. See how fear works its way out of the picture?
 

snex

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superbus that is completely illogical. you dont need to believe that i am all powerful, you just need to believe in my ability to back up my word. i have no idea why you would doubt my ability to kill you in your sleep, because it isnt that challenging.

please, stop making excuses and admit that god does indeed use fear to keep people in line. the only reason you believe him is because you fear that if you dont, you will suffer eternal ****ation.
 

Crono

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Why are most people theists? Fear of eternal damnation. Dur. Doesn't seem like any other reason to worship a tyrannical deity.

*mocks Christianity*
 

Superbus

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No, comfort, morality, meeting people, and hope for a better life have nothing to do with it.

superbus that is completely illogical. you dont need to believe that i am all powerful, you just need to believe in my ability to back up my word. i have no idea why you would doubt my ability to kill you in your sleep, because it isnt that challenging.
It isn't illogical. You won't kill me in my sleep and I know it. I'm sure you could, but you're not going to.

please, stop making excuses and admit that god does indeed use fear to keep people in line. the only reason you believe him is because you fear that if you dont, you will suffer eternal ****ation.
I already said that fear is a motivator, but I will not, nor cannot admit that it is the primary reason that people believe in God or follow Christianity. If that was the only reason, then why would there be martyrs, saints, and people that give up everything to practice Christianity? You can sure get into Heaven with a lot less effort than that. Undoubtedly, there are some people who are Christians to avoid ****, but the true heart of the religion lies in bettering yourself as a person.
 

snex

Smash Master
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No, comfort, morality, meeting people, and hope for a better life have nothing to do with it.
unfortunately, none of these things require a religion to attain. the one thing common to all religions is fear. if im wrong, then you would be just as happy as a hindu, so why dont you convert? is it because you fear that god will punish you for doing so?
 
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