The anticipated impact of Custom Special Moves on gameplay and balance (Statistics!)

[<π]

What you say is very true. That does not mean SSB4 will have an organically evolving meta. It will just take a while for the meta to become established because of the large roster plus custom moves. Without balance patches, there's a finite amount of information you can learn from SSB4. I do agree with you that it will take years for the pros to learn everything there is about SSB4.

Character popularity does not really change this much. Once you know all the moves, then you know all the counters to them. If a different move is more popular next month, you just adjust your game play to counter it. You're not learning anything new, just adapting to use a wider bade of knowledge. This hurts the players who know enough to win at the current meta and nothing else. When the popular moves change a new meta evolves and either you know the entire game and just counter the new moves with what you've learnt or you get wrekt for a while because you only learnt up the previous meta and not the entire game's moves.

You could call the above an evolving meta. For the good pros they are not learning anything now but constantly adapting their knowledge the ever changing meta. That is there is not any objectively better characters and movesets. If there is, then this goes out of the window. This is because the pro scene is not about playing who you like, it's about wining, and the pros always use the best.

I agree with you that no one will learn every move and counter anytime soon. I think will mean it'll take a while for a stable meta to occur.

I was never a pro... Maybe a -high- level melee samus, and a top level brawl sheik. I can tell you right now, not every pro player goes for the top character or top strategy. You can look at the huge level of difference between the 5 melee gods and see they play what they are comfortable with how they are comfortable with it. They make their play style good.
I've played melee for a decade I never even heard of a high level pikachu and now axe is out here nipping at the heels of some of the worlds best!

I understand how now-a-days players feel like patches need to be employed to fix every overbearing aspect (I think this is why everyone is so quick to try and ban... Well everything) but games like melee, and even brawl prove that this just isn't the case.

For years people will be finding solutions to problems different characters and play styles produce. And as one solitIon becomes the new problem people will solve it!

Or I guess they get frustrated and just aim to ban them.

 

[KingBroly]

One thing I'm interested in is what moves are in? During the Smash Direct we saw what was clearly an Ice Climbers move for Kirby. So I wonder if that move was taken out or not.

 

[<π]

One thing I'm interested in is what moves are in? During the Smash Direct we saw what was clearly an Ice Climbers move for Kirby. So I wonder if that move was taken out or not.

You mean the mallet? That is from Kirby.Kirby, like megaman, takes most of his normals from the enemy powers he absorbs in his game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You mean the mallet? That is from Kirby.Kirby, like megaman, takes most of his normals from the enemy powers he absorbs in his game.

Actually one of Kirby's custom specials involves spitting out ice just like Blizzard. I believe that's what he's referring to, although technically that's also in Kirby.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ah, guess I misremembered then. Didn't realize the max Shot Cancellation mod was +1, since I don't actually spend enough time on Uprising to know stuff like that. Still, I'd say a more apt comparison is some semi-competitive's EV-trained (but not IV-bred. Maybe bred for beneficial Nature, though) Charizard versus a properly IV-bred and EV-trained Blaziken. The first guy knows what he's doing, but still feels like using his favourites and doesn't want to sink that much time into it. It's not "stupid" so much as "non-optimized".

The treasure hunt stuff is all really that bad TBH. None of them even have negative mods and most don't even have stars maxed in either Melee or Range. I don't mean to come off as elitist or whatever, but it's clear you haven't really delt with real, competitive weapons.

You know, strangely, the first thing I thought of as a comparison when considering costume moves in professional play was not another fighting game...

...It was Pokemon. Very weird, I know. They really have absolutely nothing to do with each other. They're completely different genres, after all. But hear me out.

The biggest part of Pokemon is deciding what kind of role you want your Pokemon to play on your team and basing their moveset around that (disregarding stats spreads and held items as it's not relevant).
A huge part of any Pokemon match is figuring out what moveset your opponent has.
You can't just be "prepared for Salamence." You have to be prepared for physical-based Salamence, mixed-attacker Salamence, etc.. You enter the match knowing that your opponent is using Salamence, but, in the middle of a match while you're trying to keep your Pokemon alive, set up entry hazards, boost stats, etc., you have to figure out what moves that Salamence is running. It's an interesting element of uncertainty which doesn't make the game any less "competitive." In fact, if every Pokemon was stuck to one single moveset, I can't imagine it would be as interesting.
Is there a chance that one particular set of moves could be objectively the "best" on a particular character? Yes, and, indeed, this happens in Pokemon too. (Gen2 Snorlax comes to mind. There's a standard moveset which just about everyone uses because it's ridiculously effective.) But it's more than made up for by the variety of other Pokemon that don't have an objectively "best" set of four moves. The same could be the case for Smash. Yes, maybe Jigglypuff with neutral-special (1), side-special (3), up-special (3), and down-special (2) could clearly be the best set for Jigglypuff, but it could be much less clear which set of four specials is the "best" for Robin, Diddy Kong, Bowser, Palutena, what have you. Perhaps, at most, there are three or four movesets for these characters that players agree are all very effective. With one not necessarily being more effective than the other ones. This degree of uncertainty with, for example, which of the three "standard" set of four specials Palutena is running could make her a much more effective fighter than if she were stuck to a single default set. This degree of uncertainty is something Palutena has over other characters that have a fairly standard set of four "best" specials, like the aforementioned hypothetical Jigglypuff.
But having a clearly "best" set of four specials isn't necessarily that bad either. Not having the potential for variability is something other fighters have that Jigglypuff doesn't, but Jigglypuff can still be extremely effective without such variability like Gen2 Snorlax. (Okay, maybe not as effective as Gen2 Snorlax. That thing's just monstrous, but you get the idea.)

To summarize that point, basically, the degree of variability is just another aspect of a given fighter which they may excel at or not excel at. Just like having more or less landing lag on aerials, larger or smaller shield, faster or slower walking speed or air speed, etc..

Now, yes, I know Pokemon is a turn-based RPG and Smash is (platforming) fighter. Again, they really aren't related in any way. (Other than the presence of Pokemon representation in Smash itself, I guess), but it seems like an interesting comparison to me. At least in regards to the impact of uncertainty and variability.

I'd say it could easily apply, seeing as the logic applies to KIU. It's not as extreme obviously, being that you're in full control rather then commanding monsters.

 

[NewGuy79]

From D1:

I have a friend in Japan that confirmed custom moves are accessible via character select screen. #SUGOI #SmashBros

oh boy it's happening

 

[<π]

Actually one of Kirby's custom specials involves spitting out ice just like Blizzard. I believe that's what he's referring to, although technically that's also in Kirby.

Actually a lot of the mechanics and even attacks from smash are just transferred from kirby super star.

 

[the8thark]

Actually a lot of the mechanics and even attacks from smash are just transferred from kirby super star.

And in turn many if the Super Star/Fun Pack kirby moves are taken from earlier games. But we can say Super Star/Fun Pack is the one they used for SSB cause the earlier version of master hand is in the Kirby game. By another name but really similar thing.

 

[Niala]

@ Thinkaman First of all, excellent post. Really makes a case for move customization, which I was already in favor of anyway. The statistics bit in the beginning was very interesting to me, and something I was completely unaware of.

That said, I have a quick questions that I'm hoping you can answer, revolving predominantly around Palutena and Miis. They are unique in that their specials aren't variations of a specific move, but completely new moves altogether. This makes them exceptions to my understanding that need to be addressed.

You addressed that moves are likely to remain similar to their original counterpart, i.e., projectiles will likely remain projectiles, movement specials will likely remain movement specials. This property doesn't necessarily apply to the two characters mentioned above, and it gives them a very noticeable advantage.

Let's say, for example, that Palutena is matched up against Marth. Marth has strong approach options and good range, but no projectiles. So, you outfit Palutena's moves with projectiles, long range zoning, and escape options, (something like Warp, Auto-reticle, Counter, and Angelic Missile.) Now, let's say, her match-up is with Falco, a character with really good zoning potential but a somewhat weak close-up game. She can take options that help her bypass his zoning, and instead get her in close fast and help her fight him head-on, (something like Warp, Superspeed, Celestial Fireworks, and Explosive Shot.)

Now, granted, I'm making some assumptions about which of her moves are available on which inputs, but bear with me on that.

The point I'm trying to make is doesn't this system more greatly benefit those characters whose options differ more drastically, giving them a wider scale from which to choose their options? How would you address that question from the standpoint of match-up balance?

Please feel free to point out any flaws in my insight, I'd love to gather as much knowledge as possible with regard to these issues. Thanks!

 

[PingPongCop]

On the subject of equipment, do we have any confirmation of whether the stat mods are randomized per item, or predetermined? See Kid Icarus Uprising for an example of random equipment stats.

They are exactly like Kid Icarus Uprising. Which is why they shouldn't be allowed. No one wants to spend hours playing smash grinding for the best equipment! It would break competitive play.

 

[<π]

They are exactly like Kid Icarus Uprising. Which is why they shouldn't be allowed. No one wants to spend hours playing smash grinding for the best equipment! It would break competitive play.

There are DEFINITELY people who want to grind to get the best equipment and then make use of the advantages they've invested their time into. Look at the pokemon community, or talk to TCG pros about their rise to the top. But of course that isn't something everyone is going to be willing to do or interested in. I think for a lot of people what is appealing about fighting games is that you DON'T have to grind for items or levels that make you relevant, but instead you grind out your skill and consistency. Your ability to out think is a much more important time investment than the time hunting down rare cards or training IV or EV or whateverVs in a traditional fighter.
But, I personally like the idea of custom character tournaments. I'd love to use my insanely defensive hard hitting samus against someones light speed light weight sonic. That's fun to me and definitely something I could poor hours into; working for that one piece of equipment I need, tweaking my character so they are just right.

EDIT:
Sometimes I think English is my second language. Fixed some things so this makes a little sense...

 

[shapular]

Does this mean D1's changed his opinions on whether these moves will be banned or is he just relaying some information for us?

I don't know what he thought about them before, but he was on Xzax's stream a few days ago hyping up custom moves in competitive play. IIRC he got pretty in-depth and even convinced Xzax that they were a good idea. You can find it here around 35:10 if you're interested: http://www.twitch.tv/enemy_smash/c/5061086

 

[DairunCates]

@ Thinkaman First of all, excellent post. Really makes a case for move customization, which I was already in favor of anyway. The statistics bit in the beginning was very interesting to me, and something I was completely unaware of.

That said, I have a quick questions that I'm hoping you can answer, revolving predominantly around Palutena and Miis. They are unique in that their specials aren't variations of a specific move, but completely new moves altogether. This makes them exceptions to my understanding that need to be addressed.

You addressed that moves are likely to remain similar to their original counterpart, i.e., projectiles will likely remain projectiles, movement specials will likely remain movement specials. This property doesn't necessarily apply to the two characters mentioned above, and it gives them a very noticeable advantage.

Let's say, for example, that Palutena is matched up against Marth. Marth has strong approach options and good range, but no projectiles. So, you outfit Palutena's moves with projectiles, long range zoning, and escape options, (something like Warp, Auto-reticle, Counter, and Angelic Missile.) Now, let's say, her match-up is with Falco, a character with really good zoning potential but a somewhat weak close-up game. She can take options that help her bypass his zoning, and instead get her in close fast and help her fight him head-on, (something like Warp, Superspeed, Celestial Fireworks, and Explosive Shot.)

Now, granted, I'm making some assumptions about which of her moves are available on which inputs, but bear with me on that.

The point I'm trying to make is doesn't this system more greatly benefit those characters whose options differ more drastically, giving them a wider scale from which to choose their options? How would you address that question from the standpoint of match-up balance?

Please feel free to point out any flaws in my insight, I'd love to gather as much knowledge as possible with regard to these issues. Thanks!

It certainly gives her a higher variance on her potential power-level, but unless she has just an absolutely game-breaking set of moves (which, if any character is gonna have more balance-minded custom moves, it's gonna be the characters BUILT around it), it should be too big of an inherent advantage. If the moves are that strong, they lose some of their usage as utility and people will tend towards what becomes accepted as the more powerful set. If the moves are a little less obviously powerful, than you'll see more variance in their usage.

So, it might be a strong part of the metagame for her character and may be one of her big advantages, but it's not likely to make her a god-tier character or heavily mess up the variance in characters. Remember. Power-ups help weaker characters more than already strong ones.

I don't know what he thought about them before, but he was on Xzax's stream a few days ago hyping up custom moves in competitive play. IIRC he got pretty in-depth and even convinced Xzax that they were a good idea. You can find it here around 35:10 if you're interested: http://www.twitch.tv/enemy_smash/c/5061086

In his initial reaction to the Nintendo Direct and his analysis of it, he was saying they would HAVE to be banned. We've learned a lot more about them since then though. So, I wouldn't be shocked if he DID change his mind.

 

[PingPongCop]

There are DEFINITELY people who want to grind to get the best equipment and then make use of the advantages they've invested their time into. Look at the pokemon community, or talk to TCG pros about their rise to the top. But of course that isn't something everyone is going to be willing to do or interested in. I think for a lot of people what is appealing about fighting games is that you DON'T have to grind for items that make you relevant, but instead you grind out your skill and consistency, you ability to out think is so much more important time investment that the time hunting down rare cards or training IV or EV or whateverVs.
But, I personally like the idea of custom character tournaments. I'd love to use my insanely defensive hard hitting samus against someones light speed light weight sonic. That's fun to me and definitely something I could poor hours into; working for that one piece of equipment I need, tweaking my character so they are just right.

All while I do love the idea of Custom characters, this is entirely unfitting for a game like Smash Bros. Professional players, I'm positive, will NOT want to spend most of their time playing for items instead of training for a match. It's not nearly as helpful and does not promote competitive play at all. Pokemon is not Smash Bros. Kid Icarus is not Smash Bros. They are completely different games from it. Pokemon and Kid Icarus are pretty much ABOUT grinding, aside from the main story. The grinding you do helps add to the story mode, which in turn makes it more fun. In Smash Bros (4 at least) there isn't a story. I, for one, loved adding stickers to make my Subspace Emissary character stronger. But it just doesn't work out in a game more focused on the skill YOU have with your character than the strength YOUR CHARACTER has. Plus, in Pokemon, it is at least possible to get Perfect EV'S. EV'S, if you don't know, are random stats generated at the catch or birth of a Pokemon. Ranging from 0 to 6, each EV increases the overall rate at which your Pokemon gains stats. But the thing is, there's a LIMIT. Pokemon can only reach Level 100. In Smash Bros, custom items range in power any where from 1 to 179 (and they can probably go way above that). In a fighting game, you want to be matched up against a character and KNOW what to expect. Now, I'm up for a little customization here or there, such as custom moves. Custom moves are changes that will affect your playstyle, but not completely break the game. You will NEVER go into a match and expect Mega Man's regular Buster Shots to do 11% each.

Again, Smash Bros, unlike Pokemon, is not about grinding. Its a PARTY game! It would feel so unnatural to go into a match with your friend and their Kirby does 15% with one hit. You turn to your friend and you're like "dude wtf?" And they're like "dude I spent all night grinding for those items, now my Kirby is super strong!" You'll want to do the same so you can have an even playing field. It just doesnt work with a party game. It's supposed to be fun, but it cant be fun if its game breaking. At least in Pokemon, EV's don't make a SUPER huge difference in stats.

Plus that 'one piece of equipment you need' you have a 1 out of 600 chance of obtaining (This is to say that the max is 200 for a stat, which I dont believe it is) which is a .16% chance. Good Luck finding that item, dude.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Plus, in Pokemon, it is at least possible to get Perfect EV'S. EV'S, if you don't know, are random stats generated at the catch or birth of a Pokemon. Ranging from 0 to 6, each EV increases the overall rate at which your Pokemon gains stats. But the thing is, there's a LIMIT. Pokemon can only reach Level 100.

How long has it been since you last played Pokémon? EVs are values that can be trained. Every 4 EVs equates to 1 stat point at level 100, and you have a max of 252 EVs in any stat, with 512 EVs maximum overall. IVs are what you were referring to. IVs range from 0 to 31, not 0 to 6, by the way.

 

[PingPongCop]

How long has it been since you last played Pokémon? EVs are values that can be trained. Every 4 EVs equates to 1 stat point at level 100, and you have a max of 252 EVs in any stat, with 512 EVs maximum overall. IVs are what you were referring to. IVs range from 0 to 31, not 0 to 6, by the way.

Geez, I guess it has been a really long time. Approximately 2 years, I suppose. Ah well, I got IV and EV mixed up. And the range from 0 to 31 does make a bit of a difference I guess, but not that much. You must also consider that there are ways to make acquiring correct EV's easier, such as using an EV Calculator. Also I know how EV's work, I haven't forgotten that much.

 

[<π]

All while I do love the idea of Custom characters, this is entirely unfitting for a game like Smash Bros. Professional players, I'm positive, will NOT want to spend most of their time playing for items instead of training for a match.

This always bothers me when people just

1. up and assume pro players won't like things.
2. Assume pro players opinions out weigh the whole of the community. (If the community decides to play the game with items on, and the pro players don't... they won't be pro players any more.)
3. Assume everyone will cater to and agree with whatever a pro player decides.

What pro players hypothetically feel and potentially want is irrelevant and not even worth talking about when you and I are poking at these abstract thoughts. We can validate our own ideas and opinions. What do YOU as an individual want. And what do YOU want from/for the COMMUNITY? Those are much more important considerations than... well anything else. Alright back to the rest.

It's not nearly as helpful and does not promote competitive play at all. Pokemon is not Smash Bros. Kid Icarus is not Smash Bros. They are completely different games from it. Pokemon and Kid Icarus are pretty much ABOUT grinding, aside from the main story. The grinding you do helps add to the story mode, which in turn makes it more fun. In Smash Bros (4 at least) there isn't a story. I, for one, loved adding stickers to make my Subspace Emissary character stronger. But it just doesn't work out in a game more focused on the skill YOU have with your character than the strength YOUR CHARACTER has. Plus, in Pokemon, it is at least possible to get Perfect EV'S. EV'S, if you don't know, are random stats generated at the catch or birth of a Pokemon. Ranging from 0 to 6, each EV increases the overall rate at which your Pokemon gains stats. But the thing is, there's a LIMIT. Pokemon can only reach Level 100. In Smash Bros, custom items range in power any where from 1 to 179 (and they can probably go way above that). In a fighting game, you want to be matched up against a character and KNOW what to expect. Now, I'm up for a little customization here or there, such as custom moves. Custom moves are changes that will affect your playstyle, but not completely break the game. You will NEVER go into a match and expect Mega Man's regular Buster Shots to do 11% each.

Again, Smash Bros, unlike Pokemon, is not about grinding. Its a PARTY game! It would feel so unnatural to go into a match with your friend and their Kirby does 15% with one hit. You turn to your friend and you're like "dude wtf?" And they're like "dude I spent all night grinding for those items, now my Kirby is super strong!" You'll want to do the same so you can have an even playing field. It just doesnt work with a party game. It's supposed to be fun, but it cant be fun if its game breaking. At least in Pokemon, EV's don't make a SUPER huge difference in stats.

Plus that 'one piece of equipment you need' you have a 1 out of 600 chance of obtaining (This is to say that the max is 200 for a stat, which I dont believe it is) which is a .16% chance. Good Luck finding that item, dude.

So a few things...
In high level pokemon I'm assuming they squeeze every single stat point they can out of their Pokemon. As a high level competitive play myself I would imagine There isn't a "well this is good enough" mindset involved.

Smash bros WAS just a party game. With smash bros 3ds it is become a little more than that. Now it is also a single player experience where you can gain equipment and strengthen your characters through modes like smash run and the classic mode. If my buddy comes over and hasn't played the game much and doesn't have the hours invested in these mode I do I do not have to play with my equipment, but if he has then we can both play casually on a relatively even playing ground with our equipment on. You can imagine top level players who are very intentionally seeking out these items to use in tournaments, much like a Pokemon guy sits there and breeds pokemon all day, will have no issues or qualms using what they've invested their time and effort in to get against someone who hasn't.

Last thing. The items seem to come with trade offs. (though even if they didn't... it wouldn't really be a huge issue, because with the more time invested the more that random equipment curve starts to level out.) I brought a picture with me.

So you can see here at first glance speed and defense went up quite a bit here and attack is in the negative. Sophia has net an whopping +76 in stats!
Second glance you might notice that another con is no respawn invincibility which is actually a pretty big disadvantage IMO. (or more accurately I guess the loss of a big advantage)

So these seem to have meaningful trade offs, not just in stats, but in game play as well. That alone makes these much more appealing for me. Even without access to equipment I can probably stand a chance with disadvantages like these also applied to the characters I'm going up against.

Now I'm not saying I'll only play with equipment on. Honestly I really doubt the community will go this route, and especially with the WiiU version. But like the Pros; at the end of the day, in spite of my loud mouth, I'm going to end up playing what ever rulesets the TOs are throwing my way. I wouldn't be shocked at all though if equipment tournaments find a niche audience within the SSB3DS community, especially somewhere in online play.

 

[Hydde]

Custom moves are a must.

Since the moment i saw the news i knew it because, its obvious than like before, some characters willc ome with crappy and stupid specials, only that this time we have 2 more shots at fixing the default crap.

Think about it guys.

 

[PingPongCop]

This always bothers me when people just

1. up and assume pro players won't like things.
2. Assume pro players opinions out weigh the whole of the community. (If the community decides to play the game with items on, and the pro players don't... they won't be pro players any more.)
3. Assume everyone will cater to and agree with whatever a pro player decides.

What pro players hypothetically feel and potentially want is irrelevant and not even worth talking about when you and I are poking at these abstract thoughts. We can validate our own ideas and opinions. What do YOU as an individual want. And what do YOU want from/for the COMMUNITY? Those are much more important considerations than... well anything else. Alright back to the rest.



So a few things...
In high level pokemon I'm assuming they squeeze every single stat point they can out of their Pokemon. As a high level competitive play myself I would imagine There isn't a "well this is good enough" mindset involved.

Smash bros WAS just a party game. With smash bros 3ds it is become a little more than that. Now it is also a single player experience where you can gain equipment and strengthen your characters through modes like smash run and the classic mode. If my buddy comes over and hasn't played the game much and doesn't have the hours invested in these mode I do I do not have to play with my equipment, but if he has then we can both play casually on a relatively even playing ground with our equipment on. You can imagine top level players who are very intentionally seeking out these items to use in tournaments, much like a Pokemon guy sits there and breeds pokemon all day, will have no issues or qualms using what they've invested their time and effort in to get against someone who hasn't.

Last thing. The items seem to come with trade offs. (though even if they didn't... it wouldn't really be a huge issue, because with the more time invested the more that random equipment curve starts to level out.) I brought a picture with me.

So you can see here at first glance speed and defense went up quite a bit here and attack is in the negative. Sophia has net an whopping +76 in stats!
Second glance you might notice that another con is no respawn invincibility which is actually a pretty big disadvantage IMO. (or more accurately I guess the loss of a big advantage)

So these seem to have meaningful trade offs, not just in stats, but in game play as well. That alone makes these much more appealing for me. Even without access to equipment I can probably stand a chance with disadvantages like these also applied to the characters I'm going up against.

Now I'm not saying I'll only play with equipment on. Honestly I really doubt the community will go this route, and especially with the WiiU version. But like the Pros; at the end of the day, in spite of my loud mouth, I'm going to end up playing what ever rulesets the TOs are throwing my way. I wouldn't be shocked at all though if equipment tournaments find a niche audience within the SSB3DS community, especially somewhere in online play.

I am not doing any of those three things you listed. So

1. This goes against every competitive game ever. I ask you, name one COMPETITIVE game that uses RNG numbers to determine how much stats an item gives you.

2. Pretty sure that people who want custom equipment are in the minority here. No offense.

3. I am speaking on a competitive viewpoint. If you're talking about casual play, then that's entirely different. As I said, these items do not promote COMPETITIVE play in any way. Alot of the points you made against me are invalid because you're talking about casual play.

Sure, the items have trade offs, but think about this. You saw how fast Kirby went in the 5 minute trailer, right? He must of had some pretty jacked up speed. ANY competitive player would want to go into a match knowing exactly how fast Kirby is. Going into a match and worrying "Oh shoot, how fast is this Kirby? How strong is he? He may be defensive?" No. That's the whole point of characters in a fighting game. They give you a certain set of abilities you have to work with and that's it. They each have strengths and weaknesses. Work around them by developing tactics, not by grinding through Classic mode so you can increase the stats they lack in. There's no point in what character you use if you can jack up your stats like that because you might as well increase your Bowser's speed to the maximum and not have to worry about anything. Sure, your attack and defense might decrease a little, but it doesn't matter because he's already strong and tanky. You just give your character items to cover their weak points. Now you don't have to worry about your Mega Man getting launched easily because his defense is up! Now you don't have to worry about Sonic lacking KO moves because now they can KO! Now you don't have to worry about Ganon being so slow because you gave him those awesome boots! Just.... why?

A character is supposed to be that character. Not whatever the heck you want it to be. Sure, custom moves change their moves slightly. That's still a part of their character. It's not hard to memorize what custom moves each character has, and even if you don't know you can adapt to it, because once they use ti you know what it is. Changing their stats is not a part of their character. Ike is not meant to be fast. Jigglypuff is not meant to be strong. Greninja is not meant to be hard to knock off.

And one big point that I haven't even said yet: What if you don't have the 3DS version? When you go to a tournament it's not like you take your whole Wii U with you. They have a Wii U available, ready to go. You can transport custom items and movesets to the Wii U, but not if you only have the Wii U version! It would just be impossible.

Sorry if I came off as rude. I get pretty cranky when I'm sleepy. I should just go to bed.

 

[LancerStaff]

They are exactly like Kid Icarus Uprising. Which is why they shouldn't be allowed. No one wants to spend hours playing smash grinding for the best equipment! It would break competitive play.

mumblemumblemadecompetitivekiu

This goes against every competitive game ever. I ask you, name one COMPETITIVE game that uses RNG numbers to determine how much stats an item gives you.

Pokemon, KIU, basically any mons game ever, basically any RPG ever with random drops, and Mario Kart, basically.

 

[<π]

@ PingPongCop No this isn't rude at all.

I don't think custom equipment set ups will make it onto the big screen. I think you logic is sound there.

There are countless games with random drops and random stat generation that are competitive. LancerStaff named a few.

I agree, custom equipment likely will not be in the majority's mind when the imagine competitive game play.

I assumed that when you were talking about a random guy coming over and being blow away but custom moveset it was a guy who never played the game before. So I was trying to give a similar example.

There are plenty of games where there are customizable elements not know by both parties. League of Legends for example, you have characters that have natural advantages but you can use these things called runes and masteries to customize your character. You can change a weak fragile character into a tank and a tank into a damage dealer. You can turn a tank into a SUPER TANK and damage dealer into a better damage dealer. In spite of people not knowing before hand what kind of characters the other team are ahead of time this is a highly competitive game that gets WAY more viewers than smash does and is sitting on much much higher prize pools than we've ever dreamed of in the smash community.

 

[Thinkaman]

- Move customization is accessible after you select a character easily at the CSS. First you turn it on, by hitting a button on the top right of the bottom screen. After that, an interface appears on the bottom character portraits. There's 8 slots for 4 equipment and 4 b move modifications. It's easy and quick to do.

Well then. Sounds good.

 

[PingPongCop]

mumblemumblemadecompetitivekiu
Pokemon, KIU, basically any mons game ever, basically any RPG ever with random drops, and Mario Kart, basically.

I said Items that give you stats generated by and RNG. Which leaves KIU, which isnt that competitive. Really, Libra Sponge plus Super Armor = ultimate invincibility? Nah.... doesn't really count...

@ PingPongCop No this isn't rude at all.

I don't think custom equipment set ups will make it onto the big screen. I think you logic is sound there.

There are countless games with random drops and random stat generation that are competitive. LancerStaff named a few.

I agree, custom equipment likely will not be in the majority's mind when the imagine competitive game play.

I assumed that when you were talking about a random guy coming over and being blow away but custom moveset it was a guy who never played the game before. So I was trying to give a similar example.

There are plenty of games where there are customizable elements not know by both parties. League of Legends for example, you have characters that have natural advantages but you can use these things called runes and masteries to customize your character. You can change a weak fragile character into a tank and a tank into a damage dealer. You can turn a tank into a SUPER TANK and damage dealer into a better damage dealer. In spite of people not knowing before hand what kind of characters the other team are ahead of time this is a highly competitive game that gets WAY more viewers than smash does and is sitting on much much higher prize pools than we've ever dreamed of in the smash community.

Don't worry man, I play League of Legends alot. I know this stuff. See there's nothing wrong with runes. They're balanced, and they give you a set stat boost. Masteries are the same. It's not the same in Smash. In League of Legends, Masteries and Runes do help your character, but not by alot. There is a significant change, but not to the point where you will lose without them. Custom items completely change your character. You could basically make any character have no weaknesses. That's not entirely possible in League. Yes, you do have the REALLY tanky characters like Braum, but thats because the characters in League fit into different archetypes. There are tanks, assassins, supports, mages, marksman, and fighters. Each do different things and have different roles in a team. Smash Bros, not quite the same. Everyone is pretty much built to do the same thing, hit each other and knock each other off the stage. It's just an inaccurate comparison.

 

[Jallis370]

I'm confused... What's the point of having custom movesets if you can't use it competitive online? Why go all out on making your character suit your style if you can't use it against others anyway? Why even bother to think about balance of something that's only meant to stay in your room collecting dust while you compete with others with characters you actually are allowed to use and need to concentrate on to get better with?
Could it be opened for online use later on?

 

[ferioku]

#Custommoves for smash for! IDC what anyone says, It brings more variety towards Sm4sh!

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm confused... What's the point of having custom movesets if you can't use it competitive online? Why go all out on making your character suit your style if you can't use it against others anyway? Why even bother to think about balance of something that's only meant to stay in your room collecting dust while you compete with others with characters you actually are allowed to use and need to concentrate on to get better with?
Could it be opened for online use later on?

It can be used competitively online. There is just no ranked ladder, so there is no top-level competitive play with anonymous strangers.

Online tourneys, which are organized externally and dependent on friend requests, can use custom options.

 

[PhantimGanon]

Personally I'd be very down with a separate 100% custom bracket in tournaments, assuming that character equipment customization ends up being an evolving strategic process. I kinda suspect it wont for the same reason i doubt equipment has any chance of making it into the normal competitive scene: not all of the items give straightforward attack, speed, and defense buffs/penalties; some will reduce hitstun on your character, some reduce smash attack animation time, and one piece of equipment shown in the nintendo amiibo announcement trailer actually gave mario an exploding perfect shield. Secondary effects like these have a real chance to circumvent even the most thorough attempt at balancing and could lead to weird infinites or endless stalling with some characters or specials in addition to the possibility that some added effects could be so good that just about everyone uses them. I can easily picture someone brickwalling people with the "easier perfect shield"(another confirmed buff) and "exploding perfect perfect shield" items--though hopefully effects like these would take up the same custom spot. I realize that certain items, or strategies could easily be banned if they proved to be game-breaking, but I never like to start down the ban-slope that leads to tearing the game apart in bits and pieces. I don't know that the mainstream competitive community will ever trust the uncontrollable wellspring of diversity and unpredictability that these items represent, but I hope they show up somewhere. I honestly plan to spend some time building the most savage rushdown character I can, and maybe a hulking tank or two, and I'd love to see a community ready to build something I can challenge. You know: for funzees.

 

[Lewt]

The time will be a huge issue for custom moves.
On the 3DS, that might not be an issue because everybody will have their own system with their own custom profiles already set.
BUT I have to disagree with the point that everybody will go for the 4 best custom moves. Some of the moves have different properties such as range. That is totally matchup dependent, so depending on what character you play against you will want to have different moves obviously, so people will still have to select a different moveset before almost every set.
On the Wii U, you need to create a new profile everytime you go to a new setup. That will be a huge issue.
The way I understood Zipzo's explanation of how you select custom moves is: You customize your character in the customisation screen and save it onto a profile which has 6 slots for every character I believe, and when you are in the CSS you can chose one of the 6 saved movesets. (Sort of how it works on Naruto UNS3)
That wont work especially on big tournaments.

Now since a 3DS brackets would need less time in general (no setup issue), I think the best solution is to allow custom moves on 3DS and ban them on Wii U.
A lot of people say that the 3DS version will be irrelevant to them once the Wii U version is out; this would prevent it and both sides can enjoy both ways to play the game without having to lock one option completely away.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The time will be a huge issue for custom moves.
On the 3DS, that might not be an issue because everybody will have their own system with their own custom profiles already set.
BUT I have to disagree with the point that everybody will go for the 4 best custom moves. Some of the moves have different properties such as range. That is totally matchup dependent, so depending on what character you play against you will want to have different moves obviously, so people will still have to select a different moveset before almost every set.
On the Wii U, you need to create a new profile everytime you go to a new setup. That will be a huge issue.
The way I understood Zipzo's explanation of how you select custom moves is: You customize your character in the customisation screen and save it onto a profile which has 6 slots for every character I believe, and when you are in the CSS you can chose one of the 6 saved movesets. (Sort of how it works on Naruto UNS3)
That wont work especially on big tournaments.

Now since a 3DS brackets would need less time in general (no setup issue), I think the best solution is to allow custom moves on 3DS and ban them on Wii U.
A lot of people say that the 3DS version will be irrelevant to them once the Wii U version is out; this would prevent it and both sides can enjoy both ways to play the game without having to lock one option completely away.

Nah, anytime you edit the custom move choices it goes on the currently-selected profile. So you can just choose a profile and easily edit on the fly, it seems. Also, remember that on 3DS at least this all takes place on the CSS.

 

[LancerStaff]

I said Items that give you stats generated by and RNG. Which leaves KIU, which isnt that competitive. Really, Libra Sponge plus Super Armor = ultimate invincibility? Nah.... doesn't really count...

Librairies (Libra+Aries) is a well-known noob combo, comparable to Kirby spamming stone. I just 1-2HKO people who use that kind of stuff thinking they're invincible. You should actually play competitively before judging TBH.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I suppose I can weigh in with this.

I think first of all it is important to establish that movesets and equipment are separate issues. Thinkaman extolled the virtues of movesets with such bravado that I don't think I need to add more beyond that, if we choose not to use them, we are very likley to do severe harm to the game. Equipment I don't feel carries the same risk, and since the game has two very distinct options for equipment and movesets, I think we can approach them as separate issues. The important reason to start with this is that I feel like most of us are really ready to give custom movesets what they deserve: presumed legality until proven guilty and "only if it's distinctly more broken than Brawl Meta Knight" level protections against banning individual moves. Doing that matters so much more than whatever decision we make on equipment, and I want to avoid at all costs losing the baby with the bathwater here and having anyone conflate these two very different sides of the coin.

As per equipment, I'll confess from the start not to have played Kid Icarus Uprising, but I am what I might call cautiously pessimistic. In general the idea of customizing your character with unique statistical pros and cons and perhaps individual special effects sounds interesting. I personally wouldn't mind grinding out anything if it made for a more interesting competitive game either; I've played enough Pokemon not to even care anymore. However, I see several very likely real and substantial problems. Let me just address the grind which to me seems especially bad here to the point that I think it might stop an average player from being able to compete:

Smash Run takes an average of 7 minutes plus one minute of menus and load times per run for a total of 8 minutes. Let's say arbitrarily that you can get an average of 5 pieces of equipment per smash run attempt and that there are 5000 possible pieces of equipment the game could generate and you need a specific four (no one serious would ever enter a tournament with any equipment that wasn't precisely perfect for what they wanted). How much time until you get all four?

I'm going to model this as a Bernoulli process and calculate the expected value to get any one of the four and then add that to the expected value for thee then two then one. That may or may not be strictly correct, but it's certainly easier than other approaches. You can actually simplify the solution in hours as the sum of an n-term harmonic series times 333.333... with n being the number of pieces of equipment you want. For four pieces, this comes out to 440.74 hours, and for 204 pieces (enough for the entire cast), it's 1967 hours which is what we need to presume per each Wii U tournament set-up (no, it's not reasonable to demand every player own a 3DS). Unless my assumptions here are very deeply flawed, this is... kinda a big problem. Is anyone actually hardcore enough to do this? This is linear with my assumptions as well; if you think I'm wrong about the total equipment pool or the rate you'll get equipment, just multiply the final result by the factor by which I was wrong to correct. So if there are twice as many pieces of possible equipment, double the time. If you can farm equipment twice as fast as I guessed, halve the time. If you want even more equipment for multiple viable builds, just grow the harmonic (eight pieces per character comes to 2197 hours).

Equipment has many other prospective problems, but to me, the most important thing is recognizing that this system is very independent from custom moves and that we can agree on those being worth giving the most serious possible legality trial. After that, I'm willing to test out equipment because honestly I'm down for testing anything, but I do think the evidence suggests that it has fairly bleak prospects. So let's get our hands on the game, see how it works, and see how long it really takes to unlock stuff. I just wouldn't get our hopes up for equipment, and more importantly, I wouldn't let any problems we perceive or discover about equipment poison the well on the movesets at all since those are the very, very important thing here.

 

[<π]

And like I said before... my life won't end without equipment. I will be more than comfortable playing without it. But I think it is more than worth testing in some capacity.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I suppose I can weigh in with this.

I think first of all it is important to establish that movesets and equipment are separate issues. Thinkaman extolled the virtues of movesets with such bravado that I don't think I need to add more beyond that, if we choose not to use them, we are very likley to do severe harm to the game. Equipment I don't feel carries the same risk, and since the game has two very distinct options for equipment and movesets, I think we can approach them as separate issues. The important reason to start with this is that I feel like most of us are really ready to give custom movesets what they deserve: presumed legality until proven guilty and "only if it's distinctly more broken than Brawl Meta Knight" level protections against banning individual moves. Doing that matters so much more than whatever decision we make on equipment, and I want to avoid at all costs losing the baby with the bathwater here and having anyone conflate these two very different sides of the coin.

As per equipment, I'll confess from the start not to have played Kid Icarus Uprising, but I am what I might call cautiously pessimistic. In general the idea of customizing your character with unique statistical pros and cons and perhaps individual special effects sounds interesting. I personally wouldn't mind grinding out anything if it made for a more interesting competitive game either; I've played enough Pokemon not to even care anymore. However, I see several very likely real and substantial problems. Let me just address the grind which to me seems especially bad here to the point that I think it might stop an average player from being able to compete:

Smash Run takes an average of 7 minutes plus one minute of menus and load times per run for a total of 8 minutes. Let's say arbitrarily that you can get an average of 5 pieces of equipment per smash run attempt and that there are 5000 possible pieces of equipment the game could generate and you need a specific four (no one serious would ever enter a tournament with any equipment that wasn't precisely perfect for what they wanted). How much time until you get all four?

I'm going to model this as a Bernoulli process and calculate the expected value to get any one of the four and then add that to the expected value for thee then two then one. That may or may not be strictly correct, but it's certainly easier than other approaches. You can actually simplify the solution in hours as the sum of an n-term harmonic series times 333.333... with n being the number of pieces of equipment you want. For four pieces, this comes out to 440.74 hours, and for 204 pieces (enough for the entire cast), it's 1967 hours which is what we need to presume per each Wii U tournament set-up (no, it's not reasonable to demand every player own a 3DS). Unless my assumptions here are very deeply flawed, this is... kinda a big problem. Is anyone actually hardcore enough to do this? This is linear with my assumptions as well; if you think I'm wrong about the total equipment pool or the rate you'll get equipment, just multiply the final result by the factor by which I was wrong to correct. So if there are twice as many pieces of possible equipment, double the time. If you can farm equipment twice as fast as I guessed, halve the time. If you want even more equipment for multiple viable builds, just grow the harmonic (eight pieces per character comes to 2197 hours).

Equipment has many other prospective problems, but to me, the most important thing is recognizing that this system is very independent from custom moves and that we can agree on those being worth giving the most serious possible legality trial. After that, I'm willing to test out equipment because honestly I'm down for testing anything, but I do think the evidence suggests that it has fairly bleak prospects. So let's get our hands on the game, see how it works, and see how long it really takes to unlock stuff. I just wouldn't get our hopes up for equipment, and more importantly, I wouldn't let any problems we perceive or discover about equipment poison the well on the movesets at all since those are the very, very important thing here.

My own concern with the equipment is that the stats seem to be randomized. I confess I glossed over the technical details of the harmonic series you described (that isn't really my forte), but the Character Creation page on the official website shows a picture with two identically-named pieces of equipment that feature different +/- numbers. Thus, barring perhaps different weightings for better equipment depending on difficulty settings, it would be nearly impossible for all setups to have a single standardized set of equipment for players to use as they wish. I suspect you already addressed this in much more rigorous terms. (Also it's 2:30 in the morning and I really should be in bed...)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My own concern with the equipment is that the stats seem to be randomized. I confess I glossed over the technical details of the harmonic series you described (that isn't really my forte), but the Character Creation page on the official website shows a picture with two identically-named pieces of equipment that feature different +/- numbers. Thus, barring perhaps different weightings for better equipment depending on difficulty settings, it would be nearly impossible for all setups to have a single standardized set of equipment for players to use as they wish. I suspect you already addressed this in much more rigorous terms. (Also it's 2:30 in the morning and I really should be in bed...)

That was what I was trying to address; I suppose I framed it badly in this respect. I was modeling every gameplay unique piece of equipment as different. So if you have a piece of equipment, let's say the Comfy Shorts, it might give +50 defense and -21 attack. Another pair of Comfy Shorts might be +51 defense and -21 attack. I was counting these as two possible items since they're statistically unique from each other. For the purpose of competitive play, you always need to have the absolute best so, if the Comfy Shorts are the best item for their particular equipment slot, you'd always have to have the +51 version and having the +50 version would be the same as having nothing (i.e. worthless). Obviously there will be some limits to what the RNG will give to stats so there should be a finite number of possible stat builds for each piece of equipment. I took a totally wild guess and figured that adding together all of these counted individually would result in 5000 possible unique pieces of equipment. While I suspect there will be far fewer than 5000 named types of equipment in the game, there very well may be far more than 5000 total pieces when you factor in all the stat variations; my guess was actually intended to be really conservative in this regard (I would totally believe 50000 pieces in an unlucky scenario!).

In short I accounted for that in my guess of 5000 equipment types, but your core concern isn't wrong at all because when you count things like that you have a projected grinding time of 440.74 hours to get a full set of equipment for your preferred character or 1967 hours to have an ideal set for the whole cast with sure does seem like more than anyone is actually going to be willing to spend. The assumptions I'm making about the parameters may be wrong, and there may be so far hidden mechanics to help us force perfect stat equipment to really cut this down. For my part I'll definitely be exploring this in depth when the game comes out, but until such a time, I wanted to point out that the concerns about the grind for custom equipment were really not poorly founded if you combine what we know so far with some math. I also wanted to drive home the incredible amount of merit I see in custom moves and try to avoid the very scary possibility of people conflating this dubious equipment system with the awesome move system. No matter how this equipment stuff works out, I really, really don't want it to affect the movesets.

 

[Untouch]

I don't see equipment working out for tournaments.
Since it's random, balancing it would be impossible.

 

[<π]

I don't see equipment working out for tournaments.
Since it's random, balancing it would be impossible.

Random is not and never will be the issue. The issues surrounding equipment are centered around time and accessibility.

 

[Crudedude]

equipment would not be apart of tournament lol but for one thing custom moves can be because it's an interaction. I'm not sure how to explain on the interaction thing. If equipment and custom moves are a must together I'd assume that people will go with no equipment most rational choice. as for people sticking with best set that'll happen to some extent. However it won't mean set 2 will never be played since set 1 is better. For example mario's fireball custom moves the fire orb may work better against marth to stop his aerial game since it's big and slow speed will force marth to attack the incoming fire ball or jump higher to aviod it while the speedy fire ball would be better against ike and bowser who are slow to attack. Even though let's say fireorb is better for mario there will be match up where fireorb falls flat. let's say it gets to the point every player has to play fox again and you want to go for mario you can go for mario's best set but that fox player will know that so they know how to counter play that set. then mario has a choice to go with a different custom moves or sticking with his best play set using different tactics either way custom moves aren't hurting competitive play. Items will on the other hand will and should only be played with friends

 

[LancerStaff]

I suppose I can weigh in with this.

I think first of all it is important to establish that movesets and equipment are separate issues. Thinkaman extolled the virtues of movesets with such bravado that I don't think I need to add more beyond that, if we choose not to use them, we are very likley to do severe harm to the game. Equipment I don't feel carries the same risk, and since the game has two very distinct options for equipment and movesets, I think we can approach them as separate issues. The important reason to start with this is that I feel like most of us are really ready to give custom movesets what they deserve: presumed legality until proven guilty and "only if it's distinctly more broken than Brawl Meta Knight" level protections against banning individual moves. Doing that matters so much more than whatever decision we make on equipment, and I want to avoid at all costs losing the baby with the bathwater here and having anyone conflate these two very different sides of the coin.

As per equipment, I'll confess from the start not to have played Kid Icarus Uprising, but I am what I might call cautiously pessimistic. In general the idea of customizing your character with unique statistical pros and cons and perhaps individual special effects sounds interesting. I personally wouldn't mind grinding out anything if it made for a more interesting competitive game either; I've played enough Pokemon not to even care anymore. However, I see several very likely real and substantial problems. Let me just address the grind which to me seems especially bad here to the point that I think it might stop an average player from being able to compete:

Smash Run takes an average of 7 minutes plus one minute of menus and load times per run for a total of 8 minutes. Let's say arbitrarily that you can get an average of 5 pieces of equipment per smash run attempt and that there are 5000 possible pieces of equipment the game could generate and you need a specific four (no one serious would ever enter a tournament with any equipment that wasn't precisely perfect for what they wanted). How much time until you get all four?

I'm going to model this as a Bernoulli process and calculate the expected value to get any one of the four and then add that to the expected value for thee then two then one. That may or may not be strictly correct, but it's certainly easier than other approaches. You can actually simplify the solution in hours as the sum of an n-term harmonic series times 333.333... with n being the number of pieces of equipment you want. For four pieces, this comes out to 440.74 hours, and for 204 pieces (enough for the entire cast), it's 1967 hours which is what we need to presume per each Wii U tournament set-up (no, it's not reasonable to demand every player own a 3DS). Unless my assumptions here are very deeply flawed, this is... kinda a big problem. Is anyone actually hardcore enough to do this? This is linear with my assumptions as well; if you think I'm wrong about the total equipment pool or the rate you'll get equipment, just multiply the final result by the factor by which I was wrong to correct. So if there are twice as many pieces of possible equipment, double the time. If you can farm equipment twice as fast as I guessed, halve the time. If you want even more equipment for multiple viable builds, just grow the harmonic (eight pieces per character comes to 2197 hours).

Equipment has many other prospective problems, but to me, the most important thing is recognizing that this system is very independent from custom moves and that we can agree on those being worth giving the most serious possible legality trial. After that, I'm willing to test out equipment because honestly I'm down for testing anything, but I do think the evidence suggests that it has fairly bleak prospects. So let's get our hands on the game, see how it works, and see how long it really takes to unlock stuff. I just wouldn't get our hopes up for equipment, and more importantly, I wouldn't let any problems we perceive or discover about equipment poison the well on the movesets at all since those are the very, very important thing here.

Not that I'm interested in making equipment a thing in competitive play, but you get parts from playing any mode, from what I hear, and there's likely some kind of fusion system. Simply put, fusion in KI works similarly to Pokemon breeding, except the parents die and the result isn't related to the parents at all. KIU doesn't make you run circles to hatch eggs and every part of fusion follows specific rules instead of RNG to make up for this.

 

[DairunCates]

Not that I'm interested in making equipment a thing in competitive play, but you get parts from playing any mode, from what I hear, and there's likely some kind of fusion system. Simply put, fusion in KI works similarly to Pokemon breeding, except the parents die and the result isn't related to the parents at all. KIU doesn't make you run circles to hatch eggs and every part of fusion follows specific rules instead of RNG to make up for this.

On the other hand, if it IS like KIU, there's going to be a capped stat you can get without defects, which means there's gonna be a LOT of time circled around finding equipment with the defects you want to maximize other stats.

 

[LancerStaff]

On the other hand, if it IS like KIU, there's going to be a capped stat you can get without defects, which means there's gonna be a LOT of time circled around finding equipment with the defects you want to maximize other stats.

Pretty much. Any decent KIU player would call a weapon that doesn't have a negative modifier incomplete.