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The Answer Lies in The Heart of Battle - Ryu MU Discussion - Revamp - Sheik

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SevenYearItch

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I can definitely vouch for DH's Smashes being sneaky, since charging them boosts their range (most noticably his FSmash, which in terms of sheer KO power, is definitely his strongest one, but it's also his slowest one), and in the case of his F & D Smashes, they lower his profile as well, protecting him from certain punishes (Falcon's run-up grabs, for one, and possibly the tip of Ryu's FSmash, but I've not personally tested that yet). His run-up USmash is definitely legit, since it's 7 frames, but he'll have to wait a while before it'll actually KO you (130+%??).

As for traversing DH's arsenal, we do have:
  • FADCs to handle Gunmen's shots and even Clays, but only if they're not shot-up. More likely, they'll be shot-up at seemingly the instant they're thrown out, and if/when that happens, try to FADC forward ASAP, otherwise the shots will catch you (and if DH's nearby, he can follow it up for a bigger punish). FADC-ing through default Cans is NOT recommended, since it's a multi-hit move that will cleanly beat your FA.
  • Tatsu can beat Clays, but again, only if they're not shot-up. It'll also OHKO Gunmen (and hit DH if you catch him setting them up) and kick Cans if they're in the air. You'll sail over grounded Cans from a distance, but those can be B-pressed if you're directly over the Can to challenge your Tatsu.
  • SRK-motioned DP will let you bypass everything, due to its invincibility, but its horizontal range is severely lacking. If a DH tries to approach you (from the air, even) with any of his arsenal out there with the intent to cover him, this COULD be a decent option.
  • Hadoukens, even its weakest B button version, will OHKO Gunmen, clash with Clays, and push back Cans, but only if they're in the air.
  • Red Hadoukens will let you pierce & KO Gunmen, and even hit DH if he just set one up. It'll also pierce Cans, possibly allowing you to hit DH as well if he's close by. Sadly for us, even Reds will clash with Clays.
  • All Hadoukens, even the Reds, will sail right over any Cans lying on the ground if you chuck them from farther than point blank range.
We also have our traditional universal options (Parry-- er, powershields, (spot)dodging, jumping, rolling, etc.) on top of all this. It's pretty cool & fitting that an infamous Fireball+Uppercut trapper from Super Turbo and a pseudo-camper in SF4 would have ways to get in on camps as fortified as DH's (who would be most like... Remy from 3S if there were no Parries?? Area from the EX series?? Yatterman-2 from TVC?? A handful of characters with strong post-hard-knockdown okizeme like Frederica Bernkastel from Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross (the Umineko no Naku Koro ni 2D fighter), Komachi & Alice from Scarlet Weather Rhapsody (Touhou 10.5), and Kohaku/Hisui from Melty Blood???).

I play an aggressive rushdown DH, so I likely do half of Ryu's work in approaching me for him, much like how upclose rushdown characters like Yun & Cammy do half of Zangief's work in approaching them for him (which does partially explain why SF4!Yun struggles with Zangief, since he doesn't have parries to disrespect his moves with like what he could do to Hugo & Alex in 2I/3S...). However, DH does outrange some of our melee moves, like his FAir & UAir & FTilt. Some of his attacks are also pretty fast as well, like his 4 frame jab, his 6 frame DTilt & NAir, and his 7 frame FAir & BAir. Upclose is where FAs become more useful, since the only multi-hit moves he has upclose are his jab strings, UAir, DAir, Clays (if shot-up), Up 2, default Cans, and his Smashes. The amount of combo damage we can do to him generally exceeds what he can do to us, unless he can get Clay (shot-up) --> (tippered) FAir x? --> (Closeup sweetspot) NAir juggles going.

If DH gets to put on Customs, expect 3121 or 3122.

Zigzag Can is his anti-air that, if mashed & positioned well, can rack up 20+% in 1 go.

Duck Jump Snag is practically our DP, minus the invincibility. He loses recovery distance if he runs this, so he'll want to be at a walled Omega stage (his best stage, btw) to be able to wall-jump his way back to the stage. This will also challenge our upclose aerial edgeguards, and its multi-hits will body FAs.

Quick Draw Aces will basically be a faster Clay in terms of distant poking. So long as you don't KO these Gunmen, he'll be able to play footsies as well as you can. Since you have more anti-Gunmen abilities than some other characters, DHes may pick this to have a usable Gunmen whose shots will likely come out before getting KO'd.

Stages: Expect walled Omega stages if possible, since traversing his arsenal becomes more difficult without platforms. Try banning them ASAP, since DH can wall-jump off of them to boost his recovery (especially if he's running Up 2) and you can't (he never really could in any part of his series, could he? :p). Smashville's single platform CAN make the difference in getting in on him, but its similarity to FD is troublesome. T&C is less similar to FD (until the transitions, that is), and its lower ceiling can help us KO him sooner.

As for stages to try to take him to, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Delfino, and Halberd would be good ideas, since the 1st 2 ruin the dog's projectiles (CS's 1st transformation, at least), and the latter 2 boosts our good KO power further. Lylat Cruise, Miiverse, and Dream Land 64 would be decent ideas at least, due to how closeby the platforms are.
Amazing write up! Very detailed and useful! Thanks so much amigo
 

Deatheggx56

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Hm, think i might give a hand if possible
If anyone wants to add me, we could do a test with ryu vs robin for the first week to see whats up with tht.
After some testing will post kill percentages and what not.
 
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Galaxian

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Well if you ask me, I think Ryu does pretty alright against Lucario. While Aura might build up fast against Ryu and that could spell doom, Ryu has lots of tools to keep Lucario's laggy ass at will, and KO easily. I think he might do alright.

I don't think we have a good MU against Olimar. At all. A good Olimar keeps Ryu at will, throwing Pikmin and keeping his distance and making it tricky to get in. Maybe that's just me, though. I know we can't discuss Olimar YET, but I wanna get my two cents in.
 

PokemonyeWest

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As a Greninja Main, I'll throw out some of my opinions on this matchup.

This matchup leans in Greninja's favor I believe. Greninja has some of the best mobility in the game. It is fast and has great jump height. Ryu is slow and kind of awkward in the air. Greninja can gimp the hell out of Ryu too thanks to its amazing Back Air and Hydro Pump. Be wary attempting to recover. Missing your ledge snap is death against a good Frog itching to Hydro Pump.

Where Ryu excels in this match is his superior frame data. Greninja has awful frame data on most of its attacks. For example, Greninja's grab takes 14 Frames to come out. :4greninja:'s Neutral Air is slow, Forward Air is slow, Down Tilt is probably :4greninja:'s best poke and it's still too slow. Forward Tilt has been buffed but is still slow compared to the Ryu's monstrous Weak Jab (Hit 1), Weak Down Tilt, and Weak Up Tilt which all come out on FRAME 2. Greninja excels at lame play which Ryu can struggle with. Fully charged Water Shuriken eats Hadoukens and weak Water Shuriken causes them to dissipate. Even with a recent nerf to the move, Water Shuriken can still be fired fast enough to either stalemate a fireball war or go a little into an advantageous state.

Greninja is also very slippery. While being a light-middleweight character, :4greninja: can be surprisingly hard to pile damage on or KO. :4greninja: excels at Hit-and-Run gameplay which can be frustrating to some. A lot of my matches with the Frog are won because my opponent lost their cool and started making dumb mistakes. You'll have to be patient. Greninja also does outrange Ryu in a lot of instances. :4greninja:'s Jab has deceptively long distance, and the rapid jab even more so.

Greninja's counter is his second best killing move as far as killing early. It can seal your stock as early as 90%. Usually this move will be thrown out when you do something dangerously unsafe. So I would advise NOT using Tatsu from anywhere but right in its face. Even the almighty True Shoryuken can fail you when going up against Greninja's counter, since Substitute has considerable startup, it will likely hit you right as you sail to the ground in recovery.

In customs you'll likely see Substitute changed out for Explode, which is a potent kill move around 100%. You'll also probably see Water Shuriken switched out for Shifting Shuriken, which leads into a free Up Smash [its best kill move by far] for Greninja, likely spelling your doom.


Expect Greninja to go to Town & City or Halberd on Wii U or Prism Tower on 3DS. While these stages work in our favor as well, Greninja is much more potent here.
 

Kaladin

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Can we talk about the BJ MU next? It feels neigh impossible.
 

CopShowGuy

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I played my crew's Duck Hunt main yesterday. The things Splooshi Splashy are very helpful but I'll add that I'd rather not Focus Attack anything DHD does. Simply jumping over most of his stuff worked out a lot better for me. Whenever matches got close, he would get a lot more defensive which meant I had to weave my way in without taking damage. Empty hops helped out a lot.
 

Darkmoone1

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Hey maybe it's not exactly my place to say, but i've been playing against a ton of Ikes online and feel that Ryu can stomp him in the matchup.

All of Ikes Smash attacks can be easily countered by FA since not only are they one hit, but they are also insanely slow and easy to read. Hell, you can probably land an easy DP if you react fast enough. The only smash attack to worry about is his down smash, but if it's blocked it can be extremely punishable. His Side B is also countered by Ryu's Hadouken which can be spammed at will. If an Ike uses a Side B just use a Hadouken to stop them in their tracks. Counter is the only card Ike has in his system that can overcome Ryu if one becomes too aggresive. However, patient play will allow you to set up for even more DP's leading to Ikes overall downfall.

Keep in mind that this is an early impression of the matchup, but I think Ike doesn't stand that much of a chance against Ryu. He's too slow and predictable will allows Focus Attack to shine in this matchup.
 

CopShowGuy

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You can jab > DP any traditional counter in this game. Including Ike's. That is to say if they counter your jab, your DP activates and hits them before they can counter attack the jab.
 

meleebrawler

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Hey maybe it's not exactly my place to say, but i've been playing against a ton of Ikes online and feel that Ryu can stomp him in the matchup.

All of Ikes Smash attacks can be easily countered by FA since not only are they one hit, but they are also insanely slow and easy to read. Hell, you can probably land an easy DP if you react fast enough. The only smash attack to worry about is his down smash, but if it's blocked it can be extremely punishable. His Side B is also countered by Ryu's Hadouken which can be spammed at will. If an Ike uses a Side B just use a Hadouken to stop them in their tracks. Counter is the only card Ike has in his system that can overcome Ryu if one becomes too aggresive. However, patient play will allow you to set up for even more DP's leading to Ikes overall downfall.

Keep in mind that this is an early impression of the matchup, but I think Ike doesn't stand that much of a chance against Ryu. He's too slow and predictable will allows Focus Attack to shine in this matchup.
These Ikes don't sound very good. While it's true that Ike can be fairly susceptible to getting focussed good ones will
seldom use smashes. The range difference isn't too big, but Ike is fully disjointed and Ryu isn't, so exchanges often
end in Ike's favour. Pretty even if you ask me: Ike has a range advantage in neutral, though Ryu has better combos
and generally swifter kill moves.

Now some thoughts about Mewtwo; he can actually be surprisingly difficult. Yes, he's big and can die super early to
true shoryuken or almost anything but he has a number of tricks against Ryu. He can reflect hadoukens or just overpower
them, he can disable Ryu right out of tatsumaki, and has a number of ways to beat focus, like a command grab, multihitting
nair and most critically, a multi-hitting usmash that is really strong. Ryu also isn't fast enough to consistently pressure Mewtwo
(his main weakness), and because of his poor aerial acceleration is prone to Mewtwo's landing traps.

You can jab > DP any traditional counter in this game. Including Ike's. That is to say if they counter your jab, your DP activates and hits them before they can counter attack the jab.
Does this work for Shulk's forward vision?
 

CopShowGuy

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Not as far as I know. Haven't tested that. It works with his normal version though.
 

WolfieXVII ❂

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With the advice from some in the Ryu skype I took from the CF MU thread, and edited the bottom of the OP
what we should be doing is discuss every matchup in this topic not on a weekly manner, but in a way that we move onto the next MU as soon or as late as we feel comfortable. No point in setting a strict time window when it could mean we still have things left to cover or that we will be at a solid conclusion in two days and sit doing nothing for five. We should invite the respective character boards to join in on the conversations and archive those convos into this first post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/-1 type of system, and any posts not related to the subject we're discussing at a particular time should be strictly ignored, but any conversation related to the MU at hand at a given time is welcome, the relevant bits will be picked and compiled eventually. If no one is against this, we should get started as soon as we can.

With the method we'd be using it would be the most beneficial to focus on one character at a time, get it out of the way and move on to the next one instead of glancing over several characters at a time. We should probably start from ones that we have some serious insight on and who are also the most problematic.
Let's start with Sheik guys!
 

MashPotato

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So my general impression on this matchup is that it is about even. I feel like both sides have to play patiently in this matchup because they can both throw out hitboxes safely and can do lots of damage off of a small advantage. I'd say the main pros for sheik is that she can combo us because we're large, can camp us do to hadoken being inferior to needles, and can gimp to some degree. Ryu however has a frame 4 nair that trades with sheiks f-air as well as an invicible recovery with amazing knockback (possible/fear of stage spike) and good reach. Ryu has far more damage per hit with ariels giving us the advantage in trades. We also have exceptional kill power, sheik will be dying at probably about half the percent ryu will (60-100 vs. 120-200). Ryu also has a decent kill throw if the opponent plays extremely safe. So overall I think ryu's high damage output, frame data, priority, and kill power (that is invincible) force shiek to play defensively. However, camping/playing safe against us will give us a hard time. As far as stages, I'd recommend platforms and a low ceiling for ryu for early kills and anti-camping. Battlefield, halberd, dream land and town and city would probably be best, especially battlefield. I think this match-up is slightly in ryu's favor 55:45 if on any of the above stages. On anything else except fd its even. On fd its in shieks favor 55:45 since ryu lacks an amazing approach option.
 
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CyberHyperPhoenix

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So my general impression on this matchup is that it is about even. I feel like both sides have to play patiently in this matchup because they can both throw out hitboxes safely and can do lots of damage off of a small advantage. I'd say the main pros for sheik is that she can combo us because we're large, can camp us do to hadoken being inferior to needles, and can gimp to some degree. Ryu however has a frame 4 nair that trades with sheiks f-air as well as an invicible recovery with amazing knockback (possible/fear of stage spike) and good reach. Ryu has far more damage per hit with ariels giving us the advantage in trades as well as exceptional kill power sheik will be dying at probably about half the percent ryu will (60-100 vs. 120-200). Ryu also has a decent kill throw if the opponent plays extremely safe. So overall I think ryu's high damage output, frame data, priority, and kill power (that is invincible) force shiek to play defensively. However, camping/playing safe against us will give us a hard time. As far as stages I'd recommend platforms and a low ceiling for ryu for early kills and anti-camping. Battlefield, halberd, dream land and town and city would probably be best, especially battlefield. I think this match-up is slightly in ryu's favor 55:45 if on any of the above stages. On anything else except fd its even. On fd its in shieks favor 55:45 since ryu lacks an amazing approach option.
If Sheik were to give us a hard time camping, wouldn't that mean it would be 55:45 in favor of sheik regardless of stage?

I mean, all of our Hadoukens have low af projectile durability so that would mean weedles could beat them out free.
 

MashPotato

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True, but stages like battlefield help with linear projectiles alot and make approaxhing easier. Also remember you'll never die from needles so she has to approach eventually.
 
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roymustang1990-

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True, but stages like battlefield help with linear projectiles alot and make approaxhing easier. Also remember you'll never die from needles so she has to approach eventually.
Actually,needles do enough knock back to take off stocks. It happened during one of ceo's matches yesterday.
 

MashPotato

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I didn't see that match but on stage you won't die to needles until after 300%, note that all her ariels kill before then (even some of the weak hits such as nair) so using needles to kill on stage probably won't be very effective. On a side note i found that if a shiek is offstage and recovering with vanish, dropping down from the ledge and using tatsu will hit her during the one frame of vulnerability.
 

Emblem Lord

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She def wins but its not huge. Ryus damage and comeback factor keep him in the game.
 

WorstGanonWorld

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Hey maybe it's not exactly my place to say, but i've been playing against a ton of Ikes online and feel that Ryu can stomp him in the matchup.

All of Ikes Smash attacks can be easily countered by FA since not only are they one hit, but they are also insanely slow and easy to read. Hell, you can probably land an easy DP if you react fast enough. The only smash attack to worry about is his down smash, but if it's blocked it can be extremely punishable. His Side B is also countered by Ryu's Hadouken which can be spammed at will. If an Ike uses a Side B just use a Hadouken to stop them in their tracks. Counter is the only card Ike has in his system that can overcome Ryu if one becomes too aggresive. However, patient play will allow you to set up for even more DP's leading to Ikes overall downfall.

Keep in mind that this is an early impression of the matchup, but I think Ike doesn't stand that much of a chance against Ryu. He's too slow and predictable will allows Focus Attack to shine in this matchup.
If you played against Ike´s that (apparently) did nothing but use Smash Attatcks and Side B then those Ike´s were probably not the best. Ike´s not nearly as slow/laggy as you think he is (His Nair ending lag got reduced from 18->15 frames which makes him a loot faster). And Hadouken isn´t really spammable either (at least not as much as Luigi´s fireballs). Ike´s got also a huge disjointed hitbox which helps him a lot with a good combo and grab game to boot ( Not saying Ike destroys Ryu, Ryu is awesome but he isn´t stomping Ike anytime soon. :D )
 
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Emblem Lord

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What hurts Ike is the utilt lock. Ike makes a mistake he is eating alot of damage. Ryu does win the match, but it's not destruction.
 

hawxx_

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I may not be the best Ryu but I can say that Sheik has an advantage against Ryu, probably only a small advantage, maybe like 55:45 to Sheik, that's what I think anyway.
 

PokemonyeWest

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As a Greninja Main, I'll throw out some of my opinions on this matchup.

This matchup leans in Greninja's favor I believe. Greninja has some of the best mobility in the game. It is fast and has great jump height. Ryu is slow and kind of awkward in the air. Greninja can gimp the hell out of Ryu too thanks to its amazing Back Air and Hydro Pump. Be wary attempting to recover. Missing your ledge snap is death against a good Frog itching to Hydro Pump.

Where Ryu excels in this match is his superior frame data. Greninja has awful frame data on most of its attacks. For example, Greninja's grab takes 14 Frames to come out. :4greninja:'s Neutral Air is slow, Forward Air is slow, Down Tilt is probably :4greninja:'s best poke and it's still too slow. Forward Tilt has been buffed but is still slow compared to the Ryu's monstrous Weak Jab (Hit 1), Weak Down Tilt, and Weak Up Tilt which all come out on FRAME 2. Greninja excels at lame play which Ryu can struggle with. Fully charged Water Shuriken eats Hadoukens and weak Water Shuriken causes them to dissipate. Even with a recent nerf to the move, Water Shuriken can still be fired fast enough to either stalemate a fireball war or go a little into an advantageous state.

Greninja is also very slippery. While being a light-middleweight character, :4greninja: can be surprisingly hard to pile damage on or KO. :4greninja: excels at Hit-and-Run gameplay which can be frustrating to some. A lot of my matches with the Frog are won because my opponent lost their cool and started making dumb mistakes. You'll have to be patient. Greninja also does outrange Ryu in a lot of instances. :4greninja:'s Jab has deceptively long distance, and the rapid jab even more so.

Greninja's counter is his second best killing move as far as killing early. It can seal your stock as early as 90%. Usually this move will be thrown out when you do something dangerously unsafe. So I would advise NOT using Tatsu from anywhere but right in its face. Even the almighty True Shoryuken can fail you when going up against Greninja's counter, since Substitute has considerable startup, it will likely hit you right as you sail to the ground in recovery.

In customs you'll likely see Substitute changed out for Explode, which is a potent kill move around 100%. You'll also probably see Water Shuriken switched out for Shifting Shuriken, which leads into a free Up Smash [its best kill move by far] for Greninja, likely spelling your doom.


Expect Greninja to go to Town & City or Halberd on Wii U or Prism Tower on 3DS. While these stages work in our favor as well, Greninja is much more potent here.
After a lot of matches with my Greninja against a good friend and solid player who used Ryu. I feel Greninja absolutely demolishes Ryu on the ground and in the air. There isn't much Ryu can do to beat Greninja's safe approaches (Greninja's Forward Air on shield is safe, as is Cross-Up Neutral Air at certain distances). Water Shuriken is a faster projectile than any version of Hadouken and Greninja recovers faster than Ryu does from his projectile. Greninja can also crawl under, and dash attack under an improperly spaced Hadouken. Ryu does have superior frame data on his normal moves but Greninja slightly outranges him. Greninja is damn fast and the prime playstyle for the character is Hit n Run, which Ryu can struggle with due to his relative slowness. Greninja can also gimp Ryu rather effortlessly with Hydro Pump. This is feeling like a match Ryu will definitely struggle with.

Ryu can definitely seal the stock early if it comes down to it however.
 

HoodedAltair

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Love the revamp! Alright so shiek.
Summary:
Ryu's combo and punish game hurts Sheik a lot more than Sheik's hurts you due to higher damage output and more dangerous finishers, however the real danger for Ryu is getting carried offstage since it can lead to gimps which Sheik excels at. DI away from her fair strings and always watch out for Bouncing Fish, Needles and stage spikes when offstage, and always mix up your recovery. Punish Sheik's up b ledgesnap vulnerability with tatsumaki to ledge whenever possible. Sheik's long range game is better due to her needles and her approaches are safer due to her great range and low lag. Her needles even go under haduken making it pretty useless on stage unless you try to trade it. Ryu has an amazing punish game though so capitalizing on any mistake on Shiek's part is vital. Ryu is much slower than Shiek so it can be hard closing space and finding spots to punish. However Sheik's main weakness is her lack of kill power which Ryu excels at while also being much heavier than Sheik, so this evens it out quite a lot. The matchup is considered to be a disadvantage for Ryu, but not unwinnable by any means.


Pros:
+ Higher damage output can put shiek in kill percent with a few good hits
+ HDtilt outranges her immediate ground options
+ Ryu's Fair is good for trading against Shiek's fair
+ Shoryuken kills exceptionally early

Cons:
- Offstage is extremely dangerous and Sheik has combos to get us there
- Close range is worse due to Sheik's faster jab and tilts that combo or lead into above combos
- Sheik's mid range isn't bad either due to her high speed and dash attack
- It can be hard to find openings in neutral with Sheik's frame data, range and low landing lag

Stages to ban:
-Final Destination, Duck Hunt: long flat maps for shiek to needle camp

Stages to pick:
-Halberd: Low cieling = early shory kills (watch for shieks uair)
-Smashville: Small map = closoing in shiek easier and forcing openings
 

CopShowGuy

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Duck Hunt is bad for Ryu in general because of all that increased hit stun he gets from hitting ducks.
 
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