LOL_Master
Smash Lord
kdj....if he still played, m2k could've used shiek all this time in tourney but chose not to
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The 2006-2008 Tier list
- Thread starter Mic_128
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Nonetheless, there is a huge gap in tournament placings between fox/marth and sheik. It is (at least mostly) because sheik is underplayed when compared to fox/marth/falco, but it still makes it difficult to justify giving sheik the top spot on a tier list.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
What if this, what if that. So, instead of giving top spots to Marth or Fox, we'll give it to Sheik because if M2K decided to play her he might have won?
No thanks, I'd rather base my tier list off placings/matchups rather than theory.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
Agreed. Although M2K brings up very good points regarding Sheik's placement, the tourney results just aren't there.
I'd say it's definately between Marth and Fox for the top.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
Ok well since Mango won tow big tournies Jiggs must be top over Shiek too.
Mango is one person. It's ridiculous to think that just because he won several tournies with Jiggs that Jiggs should have priority over Sheik. The percentage of people who win with Sheik is higher than the percentage of those who win with Jiggs.
otg
Smash Master
Well I mean based on matchups, Sheik goes even/SLIGHT disadvantage vs. Spacies, ***** Marth and than proceeds to **** the rest of the cast. It's all cause and response:
Sheik was ****** back in the day, so people picked up space animals. They were dominant for awhile, so now Marth has risen to the top. I don't know about you guys, but I see more and more Sheik's at tournies now, while last year it was all Marth and Falco/Fox. Give it time, I'm sure the metagame will balance itself out.
otg
Smash Master
Maybe not ****, but it's not even and it is in Sheik's favor. Considering that Sheik is Marths ONLY bad matchup that is saying alot.
Exactly, Marth's ONLY bad match up, and its not even bad enough to call a counter.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Depends on who you ask. If you share Mew2King's opinion on Sheik's matchups his tier list is an obvious conclusion of that. It's just that lots of people think otherwise, which might make his tier list seem a bit... unreasonable.
Witchking's in Germany :D
Honestly, I do think M2K's tier list is unreasonable, but so much of SWF is heavy on his **** that disagreeing would just get me flamed.
Honestly, I do think M2K's tier list is unreasonable, but so much of SWF is heavy on his **** that disagreeing would just get me flamed.
otg
Smash Master
Sheik vs. Fox is 50-50 or 45-55 (fox's favor), and Sheik vs. Falco is even, if not in Sheik's favor IMO because of how HORRIBLY Sheik can gimp his recovery, it's almost embarrassing.
So where is Sheik's bad matchup? IC's... sort of? Even that close to even nowadays. All I'm saying is that Marth does have 1 bad matchup, while Sheik goes even with the rest of Top Tiers for the most part.
Sheik vs. Marth 60-40 atleast.
So where is Sheik's bad matchup? IC's... sort of? Even that close to even nowadays. All I'm saying is that Marth does have 1 bad matchup, while Sheik goes even with the rest of Top Tiers for the most part.
Sheik vs. Marth 60-40 atleast.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
lol. Fox vs Sheik isn't even.
otg
Smash Master
Alright, w'e but what is it than? 60-40 at the worst? 55-45?
Fox vs. Sheik is closer than Sheik vs. Marth.
Fox vs. Sheik is closer than Sheik vs. Marth.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
So? Fox is still a Sheik counterpick.
otg
Smash Master
And Sheik is still a Marth counterpick, probably worse than Sheik vs. Fox. All I'm saying is Sheik's matchups are slightly better overall which is why in the end she IS higher on the tiers than Marth.
OmegaXXII
Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I always thought that Falco just generally had good matchups. I think he either goes even with, or has an advantage over, all the high tiers. I mean who do you use to counter a Falco? You can't, really, and so it's weird that he's not better.
JFox
Smash Hero
Falco is a beast character if played well. He literally ***** the entire cast below the high tier. The only characters that have small advantages over him IMO are Peach, Marth, and Jiggs. Samus and IC's may also have slight advantages as well. But Falco still does very well even at all these matchups, and none of them **** him for free. They all have to work really hard for their advantages...
Not to mention he is Sheik's, Fox's, Falcon's, Ganon's, Doc/Mario's, Dk's, and Link's hardest matchup in the game. And he ***** the bottom tiers for free at high level. He is quite the beast character.
I think Fox's real problem is he just doesn't **** the less used characters as hard as sheik, Falco, and Marth. For example, DK can give him trouble. Or like Pikachu can give him trouble. The best character in the game shouldn't have trouble with low tiers. His matchups vs the bottom of the cast are not too heavily in his favor, while the other three will **** low tiers.
Not to mention he is Sheik's, Fox's, Falcon's, Ganon's, Doc/Mario's, Dk's, and Link's hardest matchup in the game. And he ***** the bottom tiers for free at high level. He is quite the beast character.
I think Fox's real problem is he just doesn't **** the less used characters as hard as sheik, Falco, and Marth. For example, DK can give him trouble. Or like Pikachu can give him trouble. The best character in the game shouldn't have trouble with low tiers. His matchups vs the bottom of the cast are not too heavily in his favor, while the other three will **** low tiers.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
sheik's the best in the same way that mk is the best, well rounded fighting in all regards with decent kill power and can also gimp well.
imagine KoreanDJ, now imagine him playing AT HIS BEST with Sheik, now imagine him playing even better than that (the way he played vs me at MLG Vegas).
Now imagine if he decided to needle camp.
Then imagine he decided to chain grab.
Then imagine he decided to ledge camp when he got a lead.
Sheik is the best character in the game, she's just not popular enough by good players. Sheik still dominates Europe, and KDJ would probably still dominate EC but he decided not to keep playing. If KDJ still played, I would only Sheik ditto him in the finals, because my Fox Marth can't do it, and in the past (money matches, friendlies, tourney matches) we go around 50/50 in them, but I've gotten significantly better with sheik in that time period. The fact of the matter is, the finals of EC tourneys (unless PC shows who rarely uses Sheik ever) would be Sheik dittos. Azen lost a marth ditto to me only to beat me with Sheik the next game in tourney, I would Sheik ditto Azen too, Sheik ditto KDJ, Sheik ditto Jack and Sheik ditto Nihonjin. Finals of Europe are Sheik dittos, the EC Finals of many tourneys would also be sheik dittos.
imagine KoreanDJ, now imagine him playing AT HIS BEST with Sheik, now imagine him playing even better than that (the way he played vs me at MLG Vegas).
Now imagine if he decided to needle camp.
Then imagine he decided to chain grab.
Then imagine he decided to ledge camp when he got a lead.
Sheik is the best character in the game, she's just not popular enough by good players. Sheik still dominates Europe, and KDJ would probably still dominate EC but he decided not to keep playing. If KDJ still played, I would only Sheik ditto him in the finals, because my Fox Marth can't do it, and in the past (money matches, friendlies, tourney matches) we go around 50/50 in them, but I've gotten significantly better with sheik in that time period. The fact of the matter is, the finals of EC tourneys (unless PC shows who rarely uses Sheik ever) would be Sheik dittos. Azen lost a marth ditto to me only to beat me with Sheik the next game in tourney, I would Sheik ditto Azen too, Sheik ditto KDJ, Sheik ditto Jack and Sheik ditto Nihonjin. Finals of Europe are Sheik dittos, the EC Finals of many tourneys would also be sheik dittos.
M@v
Subarashii!
You bring up very good points about sheik's dominance. Ive also noticed that when brawl 1st came out, a lot of sheiks started playing mk. Heck I even did for a while. I was an OK sheik at best, I've always trouble against good edgeguarders with sheik. I usually fare better overall in melee with samus.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Oh mother of god no, seriously if all finals would be sheik dittos I would probably cry and quit the game. >_> Too much Sheik...
I tend to have trouble with Marths as Falco; Marth just isn't a good matchup for him at least IMO.
Well it stands to reason that he's still considered the best character; the amount of people who play high tiers as opposed to low tiers is not comparable.
Also, the key word is trouble. DK, Mewtwo, etc. have a slight advantage against the spacies because they're fastfallers--this doesn't mean that it's a bad matchup for the spacies. They low tiers are still bad against them; they're just better than others for that particular matchup.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
DID YOU JUST SAY MEWTWO HAS THE ADVANTAGE AGAINST SPACIES?????
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
No, if you actually look at my post the whole point I was trying to make was that he doesn't have the advantage.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I don't think he meant Mewtwo actually has an advantage. I think he mean that Mewtwo, like every other character, can take advantage of the fact that spacies are fast-fallers.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
it is contradictory though. you said they have an advantage but it's not a bad matchup. if the opponent has an advantage it's a bad matchup, lol
i get your point though but it doesn't make sense lol
I just worded it oddly; my fault. My point was that it's still a bad matchup for Mewtwo and DK, but they can take advantage of the fact that the spacies are fastfallers. IE, they're easier to combo.
otg
Smash Master
Otherwise every character would be mid Tier. Taj is great with mewtwo, Simna with Ness, Omnigamer with Kirby, Gimpy with Boozer, etc. So basically everyone still gets ranked this way because Ice Climbers place better than these lower tier characters in tournaments.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
rdk is still ma boy regahdless, it would've been lolful if he mean't it though
I saw some comments made about Pichu & Kirby.
Personally they're both so terrible it's arguable which one is worse. Me & t1mmy say they've both got their disadvantages and advantages(?) compared to each other & other characters. Pichu is faster with less range, Kirby is slower and a bit more range. Pichu can actually get a KO in sometimes, Kirby has Kirbycides... but what it comes down to is Pichu damages himself and Kirby does not so it's like... well it's obvious Mewtwo is better than both of them.
Personally they're both so terrible it's arguable which one is worse. Me & t1mmy say they've both got their disadvantages and advantages(?) compared to each other & other characters. Pichu is faster with less range, Kirby is slower and a bit more range. Pichu can actually get a KO in sometimes, Kirby has Kirbycides... but what it comes down to is Pichu damages himself and Kirby does not so it's like... well it's obvious Mewtwo is better than both of them.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
It is? What does M2 have over Pichu/Kirby again?
M2 has actual moves that combo well, a huge recovery, good grab range and powerful, usable throws. Also a pretty good projectile.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Pichu has moves that combo well, has a good recovery, and can chaingrab fastfallers to death. Mewtwo's and Pichu's projectiles are both relatively awful, but in the end both have some uses. Mewtwo gets ***** by characters that can move, Pichu gets ***** by characters with range. Generally I prefer the latter.
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