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The 2/3rds Majority - An Appeal to Subjective Ruling

SuSa

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Be prepared for what will likely become a very long read.




It has come to my recent attention that there is a group of people whom feel that subjective rule, that appeals to the masses, is the best way to create a competitive ruleset. Catering to the majority is the most important aspect of this - and therefore it is more competitive. While I personally disagree with this philosophy, seeing an undeniable objective ruleset backed by logic being the best - I digress. Assuming that the majority is always right, I am going to present a way to create a ruleset influenced and created by the majority.

For the sake of agreement without dispute - all decisions must me made by a 2/3rds majority. Failure to do so will results in a recount of the votes, this time with information present. If it defaults again - a 3rd vote will be held. Upon this 3rd vote, if one side has won 2 out of 3 polls by a majority of 50% or greater they are the 2/3rds majority.

This ruleset would require, for organizational purposes, an entire forum dedicated for itself. Allowing the voting for topics, but not the posts. Remember - this is a subjective ruleset; all that matters is what you think. Therefore arguments to change your mind do not matter - it's only what you think should happen. Therefore no information should be presented to you, and you base your vote off of your own opinion.

The entire community that cares would vote upon this community. Just like in government, if you don't vote - that's your fault if you don't get a say for what happens. Therefore the majority is narrowed to "The majority (of the people that care enough)". Therefore, it is encouraged that everyone votes! Remember you do have 3 votes! By not voting, your vote counts as "I don't care".

So you have:

Yes
No
I don't care {Didn't vote Yes or No}


Every 6 months after the initial creation of the "First Community Ruleset" - people may offer questions up to be voted upon, or revoted upon. This includes certain stage legality - whether a stage should be neutral or counterpick, if a certain character should be banned, if the LGL # needs to be changed, anything and everything that even a single member of the community wants voted on.

This ruleset would cover choices between two things as well - not just yes/no questions. After it's initial creation, it would become more and more specific until every nook and cranny has been cleaned. Meaning voting would be done in waves and would take some time. Let's draw up a fake "first wave" for a moment. Keep in mind we're starting with the bare essentials of our community here. Some of this you may think "Well no **** it's going to be ____". Good, so vote it that way.


Keep in mind I did not add EVERY question, nor are my "waves" perfectly organized. I just wanted to be able to put up a decent example to show everyone.

Wave 1 questions:

What Game mode?
Timer
Stamina
Coins
Stock

Should there be a timer?
Yes
No

How many wins for a standard set?
1
Best 2 out of 3
Best 3 out of 5
Best 4 out of 7.
Other

How many wins for a finals set?
1
best 2 out of 3
Best 3 out of 5
Best 4 out of 7
Other


Now that we have decided wave 1 - we can move onto wave 2. I put the "other" options because I still feel we can use SOME common sense/logic to predict the outcome of these questions, so instead of having 99 options I narrowed it down to the "known to be popular" few.

Wave 2 questions:

How many stocks?
3
4
Other (Less than 3)
Other (More than 4)

How much time?
7 minutes
8 minutes
9 minutes
10 minutes
Other (Less than 7)
Other (More than 10)

Should there be a counterpick system?
Yes
No

How should we decide upon the first stage to play on? (This still ignores starter/counterpick!)
Striking System
Random

How do we decide tiebreakers?
Rematch with voted upon rules
Flip a coin/RPS
Higher Stock
If tied stock higher percent
if tied stock, rematch

Should we allow items (specifics can be voted later)?
Yes
No


Now that we have finished with the Wave 2 questions - we can move onto more specific Wave 3 questions.


Should ----instert character here--- be legal? (Would be made for every character!)
Yes
No

Should ---Insert Stage here---- be legal. (Neutral/Counterpick does not matter at this point, this also would be made for EVERY SINGLE STAGE)
Yes
No


Now some "dependant" questions:


**Dependant on if counterpick system was voted to exist**
How should the counterpick system work?
Winner makes important decisions for character/stage
Loser makes important decisions for character/stage
Both winner and loser influence the counterpick with LOSER having more influence.
Both winner and loser influence counterpick with WINNER having more influence.

**Dependant on which stage selection system was voted to exist*
Should stages be divided into Neutral/Counterpicks?
Yes
No


Okay, well that wave summed things up, we can make more dependant questions.


**If neutral/counterpick was voted YES**
Should ---insert stage here--- be neutral or counterpick?
Yes
No


Well now that the basic core of our game has been layed about, we can put up questions that have shown to be of some major importance (again, use some common sense and look at society around you)


Should we limit planking?
Yes
No

Should we allow infinites?
Yes
No

--Insert more questions here, I'm not going to list them all--


Now that the major issues have been solved with majority rule, let's look deeper into the more minor details!


If planking is limited, how?
LGL
TO/Ref Judge
Other

Are any specific infinites banned if infinites allowed?
DDD's Standing Regrab
Ice Climbers
Wall Infinites

In a suicide ruling (Ganon/Bowser) what should happen?
Rematch with voted upon rules
Ganon/Bowser/Initiator wins
Ganon/Bowser/Initiator loses
What the Game Results screen says




Get the idea yet? [I'm not going to sit here and single-handingly create every question+choice of answer pool.....]

What would be wrong with this form of ruling? After all, don't we want to cater to the majority?
 

Blacknight99923

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I support teh notion of a community making its own votes, however it pains me to admit the community is NOT always completely educated. A system that takes 3 parts

The community as a whole
the tournament organizers
the backroom
it doesn't have to be these three groups but its just an example.


all having a check and balance system that would be worked out would in my opinion be the best way to do this.
 

SuSa

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Fair enough. Although a check and balance system deals with those in power so that they do not abuse said power. There is nothing to "check and balance" in this concept. Majority is majority.

EDITED
 

Blacknight99923

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if the entire case is to point out the majority of what the community wants then yes the system is useless.

Will there be some system for repeal assuming something is passed that the community later feels was a mistake.

I still think multiple groups should however be taken into account and I'll attempt to conceive a method that can adequately suit this function.


for example if metaknight was banned then we find out everyone has a 0-death on him making him non dominant would it be possible to reverse a decision.

that being said maybe I am biased because I live in a country that prides itself on democracy but I feel majority should rule.
 

Staco

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Most of the players of the mass are dumb and biased.
Even a lot of top players are biased and just vote to their advantage.
Its stupid to do mass votes to decide important rules etc.

U also dont want uninformed people to decide about important political things (war, healthy system etc.).

Thats the reason, why you don´t make mass votes to decide important things like that.
 

Blacknight99923

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^ thats funny because united states citizens effectively vote for the president.

technically I believe congress does however people will likely not VOTE THAT MEMBER BACK IN when his term is up if they do not cast the ballot for the candidate for the people they represent.


So unless we shouldn't be voting for a president or any political leader we should be living under a form of dictator ship and then how do we know those people are educated and making the proper decision?

the community takes responsibility for its actions this way and we make the game people will want to play the most,

you have a valid concern which I addressed earlier in the thread but I favor democracy or a representative democracy over other forms Decision making
 

SuSa

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Most of the players of the mass are dumb and biased.
Even a lot of top players are biased and just vote to their advantage.
Its stupid to do mass votes to decide important rules etc.

U also dont want uninformed people to decide about important political things (war, healthy system etc.).

Thats the reason, why you don´t make mass votes to decide important things like that.
Irrelevant. If you read the issue at hand, a counter-argument to my want of an objective ruleset, even if not "popular by the majority", is that the majority is right.

If that is such a case, this sort of system would be the best way to show the importance that the majority is right. After all - the majority picked everything.

Anything short of this is selective choosing and bias. Who are making those decisions? Are they in favor of the majority? Doubtful. After all, it's select choosing and bias. At that point the "majority" doesn't matter.



tl;dr
You cannot support that the majority is right, then turn around and say the majority doesn't matter.
 

Hive

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Just like in government, if you don't vote - that's your fault if you don't get a say for what happens
I disagree with the mentality that if you don't vote you can't complain. Imo people who vote for a system and legitimize it have less of a right to complain. Not voting can be a stand too and is not always caused by the absence of caring about issues. I think the article below sums up the idea fairly well.

http://www.infowars.com/you-cant-complain-if-you-did-vote/
 

SuSa

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Fun read. However, it's one viewpoint on the matter. I'm against any form of government due to how they control and influence your life. (Which, getting down to the point, is pretty much what your article is about)

Pretty much, it's an anarchist belief. Something I support. I'm not really.. arguing for this idea to come to light. It's more or less a proof of horrible and one-sided logic used by a select group of people.

Mali is a great example of anarchy

 

Nidtendofreak

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I think this system would be good in theory, but would just end up being a whole bunch of flame wars, "Do we really need to vote for something this stupid?", and voting fatigue. : \

Go for the 2/3s option, but only for the serious things. We don't need a vote to see if we should play stock based or coin based. >_>
 

Hive

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Fun read. However, it's one viewpoint on the matter. I'm against any form of government due to how they control and influence your life. (Which, getting down to the point, is pretty much what your article is about)

Pretty much, it's an anarchist belief. Something I support. I'm not really.. arguing for this idea to come to light. It's more or less a proof of horrible and one-sided logic used by a select group of people.

Mali is a great example of anarchy

I'm not for anarchy, and although the article makes a few points about telling others what to do that seems anarchist I don't think that it is necessarily anarchist either. I think the idea of anarchy like nihilism is pointless, people and societies need some level of rules in order to differentiate between actions, direct the conflict of self interest towards community benefits, and affect social justice based on universal values. Without regulation the only thing that people will believe in is self interest backed by force, maybe this society already pretty much does considering economic mobility between socioeconomic classes, environmental damage and other externalities, and government power structures.
But the idea is that just because someone presents you with a choice between two or more options representing narrow viewpoints doesn't mean either catagory is correct, and not voting can be a stand in itself when it represents a malcontent with the system in place.

I really enjoyed the link to Haiti though :) the culture portrayed and their focus on empathy is a lot different than I would have expected given its economic state. And its nice to see that at a fundamental level human nature can be generous, rather than what I've mostly seen in areas where resources become scarce. The Dominican Republic, its neighbor was hurt really bad by a largely unregulated capitalist system and created a lot of poverty, unsustainable tourism industry, monopolization and caste system like dynamics reallly hit it hard. :(
 

san.

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Ever heard of the term pluralistic ignorance?

Pluralistic ignorance occurs where the majority of individuals in a group assume that most of their others are different in some way, whilst the truth is that they are more similar than they realize. They thus will conform with supposed norms.
In other words, assumptions on what other people's thoughts/values are in a group, thinking they are different when thoughts may actually coincide.

Knowing the thoughts of the community as a whole could prevent something like that, and at least provide us with useful information on what the general consensus actually thinks. It would not hurt, although something like this needs to be scheduled, announced, maintained, etc.
 

Veel

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Good read, Susa.

The proposed system is ********.

No one is going to see that this is a bad idea from this thread and moreover, no one cares enough on the boards to make this happen. Thus, people realizing this is position is weak not going to happen. And further more sense it won't be anywhere near implemented, no one will come to realize how stupid this is in practice. Regardless, good luck with your project.

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH!
 

Veel

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I know you don't. You made this thread for a rhetorical purpose; I'm saying what you were trying to get across is going to be lost because people will come in here and think this is good idea but not discuss it. Thus people will think it is ok/ not care and move on; the fact that most people won't pursue this idea, even in thought, means this thread is ineffectual; You should really be using your talents trying to convince the higher ups... wait <_<.
 

John12346

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I'm actually digging this idea to have the users help vote on what the entire ruleset should be. I mean, if it's made of what the people want, then yeah!

BBR should totally try this shiz out.
 

CR4SH

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If you're going to do this you can't do it on smashboards. Not only do a large portion of the active community on smashboards not attend tournaments on anything resembling a regular basis, the inverse is true (a large portion of the tournament going community do not attend smashboards on anything resembling a regular basis). I think the idea of voting on rulesets is a reasonable thing to do, but it must be done at a tournament level.

I.E. When signing up for a tournament, a participant must cast their vote for the tournament ruleset.

This could be done by ballot or by hand, or otherwise. Whatever would be convenient for the TO and tournament population at large.

What could be done on smashboards is a pooling of the voting results and/or a standardization of methods and contents of the votes. People by and large don't respect the opinion of the unwashed masses (i.e. the internet/smashboards) but do respect the opinion of those directly involved in their community.

So you need to get a number of TOs to sign on to this idea to give it any legs, i guess is what I'm saying.

It worked for the midwest championships in 2008, it could work for you.

Edit: InB4 thats too hard.

Please spare me the "but that's such a burden on the tournament" argument. It's either at the tournament or nothing at all. NOBODY is going to respect a poll taken on smashboards. They don't even respect the backroom, you can't be serious.

Edit again: No. If you don't go to tournaments, you shouldn't get a say in how they're run. It's up for debate whether the general tournament going public should even have a voice, hush.
 

John12346

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Maybe we should focus less on voting for each individual tournament, but rather for one unified ruleset?

One that could be re-voted on every six months, like Susa said.

Also Susa, you're kinda cryptic at times, so just confirm with me whether or not you're pro or anti ruleset voting.
 

CR4SH

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Maybe we should focus less on voting for each individual tournament, but rather for one unified ruleset?

One that could be re-voted on every six months, like Susa said.
Edit again: No. If you don't go to tournaments, you shouldn't get a say in how they're run. It's up for debate whether the general tournament going public should even have a voice, hush.
This should not be up for serious debate on smashboards. The tournament community doesn't even take the BBR ruleset seriously. Hush.
 

John12346

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This should not be up for serious debate on smashboards. The tournament community doesn't even take the BBR ruleset seriously. Hush.
So you don't think people would take the ruleset seriously even if they themselves were actually PART of the ruleset creation?

As far as uninformed non-tourneygoers voting on the ruleset are concerned, we're just gonna have to hope that they're kind of like the people who vote for the President who have no idea what they're doing, and they don't influence the voting results TOO heavily...

Maybe in the future we'll have a way to alleviate this problem, but that's the best I can think of right now.

Edit: Hypothetical scenario- What if the voting mass simply comprised of influential tournament organizers? Would that possibly make the situation any better?
 

SuSa

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So in other words you support my Community House idea which basically let's the active communities vote upon their own reps. to vote for rules that best favor their subjective opinions.

Awesome.

Moving on.

@john
this entire threads a bait
 

Blacknight99923

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@ john

allright everyone votes luigi's mansion legal...

I don't think socal tournaments would honestly change unless every national were to start using those rules.
 

Staco

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Making majority votes also isn´t good, because you also want to have a look at minoritys.
So you have to find a tradeoff.
Or you find people, who try to find the best for all people, not just the majority.
Thats what the backroom and administrations are for.
 

John12346

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@ john

allright everyone votes luigi's mansion legal...

I don't think socal tournaments would honestly change unless every national were to start using those rules.
If it's that unlikely that people will even adopt the change, then it's very unlikely that people will even vote it legal to begin with. >.>
 

Ussi

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I already stated.
Several times.

No ****ing commenting when you vote.

You CANT say everyone is wrong.

Even if you did.
2/3rds majority
Suck
it
up
to the point he says "screw you i'm hosting my own ruleset" and tries to get followers
 

JOE!

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the problem Ussi, is that if the vast "majority" feel one way, he wont get followers
 
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There needs to be a limit on how many threads you can make a month.
This is really helpful. You, unlike SuSa, are really contributing a ****ton of useful philosophy and information to the smash community. It only seems reasonable, therefore, that you be exempt to this. Hell, we might as well implement so that everyone except you can only post once a day.

EDIT: Also, I ****ing love this idea. Now just to find a 2/3rds majority who supports banning the ICs infinites, falco's CGs, and snake's utilt.
 

AgentJGV

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The best we could do with this is use it to convince the BBR to make these rule changes. We can vote all we want but inevitably its up to them. I do agree though that it does make a very convincing argument when the majority of the community agrees on something.

Also tournament organizers are gunna do whatever the **** they want. But thats what makes smash tournies cool. you get different tastes of the game at every tourny you go to.
 

John12346

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Argh there's so much sarcasm flying around I can't tell who's on what side hnghgngh

Seriously, though, I wouldn't mind hearing about the BBR's opinion on all this voting jazz. They do seek to create the basis of all rulesets, so allowing the tournament playing base of players throw in their say to the matter could be considered a step in the right direction, right?
 

SuSa

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The best we could do with this is use it to convince the BBR to make these rule changes. We can vote all we want but inevitably its up to them. I do agree though that it does make a very convincing argument when the majority of the community agrees on something.

Also tournament organizers are gunna do whatever the **** they want. But thats what makes smash tournies cool. you get different tastes of the game at every tourny you go to.
It also makes the game unstable on a competitive level. You can't just go to a tournament and expect to be able to play on a completely legitimate stage just because a TO and 3 people thought "Yo dawg, dat ****s gay" - because they are bad at this game and could not adapt to the stage.

Funny how removing a character "to make your life easier" is totally shunned against, but the moment you want to remove a stage 80% of people support it "to make their lives easier".

Strange..... really... really strange...
 

Ripple

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EDIT: Also, I ****ing love this idea. Now just to find a 2/3rds majority who supports banning the ICs infinites, falco's CGs, and snake's utilt.

all in favor?



in all honesty though it makes me want to give up on this community with how divided we are. the whole "we can do whatever the **** we want to and host tournaments and call them competitive" attitude shows how divided we really are, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE BBR HEAD OF PUBLIC RELATIONS SAYS THIS
 

SuSa

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in all honesty though it makes me want to give up on this community with how divided we are. the whole "we can do whatever the **** we want to and host tournaments and call them competitive" attitude shows how divided we really are, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE BBR HEAD OF PUBLIC RELATIONS SAYS THIS
Pretty much this.
 
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