Hey SWF
I have a little problem on Smash 4.
I can't play properly against bad player.
Indeed, I have troubles with players that tend to spam garbage moves, roll way too much, use their counter almost everytime I'm starting a combo (playing Falcon, Sheik, etc).
I can read these things but I can't manage to punish (especially roll and counters).
For exemple, it took me 4 games to beat an Ike who literally used roll everytime, approachs with Side B, tried to grab release to ftilt/sideB on Falcon (lmao).
So yeah, I'm a really AGRESSIVE player and it seems like I can't or I don't know how to play (without playing over defensive) against that kind of persons. Really annoying :/
I guess it's way harder on online since latency is definitively present.
How should I do ? :]
Switch to Little Mac for a bit. I'm not trying to be a troll with that comment, but Little Mac has the 'easiest' time dealing with rolls in particular, given his speed, superarmor, and minimal end lag on moves. If you get past the 'spam side B and dash attack' stage of LM, you'll focus on downsmashes, well-timed tilts, roll-chasing upsmashes, and so on... which, depending on your main, can translate once you learn the process. It's like how you learn to wave dash with Luigi-- focus on getting the technique
first,
then worry about transcribing it to your preferred character. Robin may have an iffy downsmash for punishing rolls, but has an amazing ftilt for it. ZSS might lack a 'roll covering' Dsmash, but a good dash game and nice tilts help immensely. The key, though, regardless, is that you are dashing and smashing too much.
Rolling can do nothing to you if you simply limit your movement. Your foe may be rolling around at the speed of sound, but if you're dashing around and half your moves are smashes, you're the scissors to their rock. It doesn't matter if they use rock every time if you aren't using paper. As it stands, there are three ways that I (consciously) counter heavy rolling-- there may be more, but it's become largely intuitive to me on my mains, at least, so excuse if I miss some obvious ones:
- Downsmash: (Examples: Shulk, Little Mac) Any downsmash that's quick, has good range to either side, and either lingers or has minimal lag can punish rolls towards you quite nice if well-timed. There are some exceptions (Samus's roll tends to have the distance and invulnerability frames to still be potentially safe), and it depends on what kind of Dsmash your character has, but if you see someone rolling through you, this is probably the most intuitive response.
- Ftilt: (Examples: Robin, Marth) Any Ftilt that's sufficiently quick can work, though a low range will cause some potential problems. More characters have useful Ftilts for this than Dsmashes, but, more than the Dsmash option, it very much requires you to be a lot less mobile than you're apt to want. That said, a well-timed, well-spaced Ftilt is perhaps one of the safest ways to punish rolling through you.
- Jab/Dtilt: (Examples: Ike, Ganondorf) If your character has a good jab (read 'not Marth'), you might find that a jab for roll punishing. Alternatively, many characters (read 'Marth') have quicker dtilts than ftilts, which, while a bit trickier to input from a pivot, can be much safer options. Careful not to use a full repeating jab combo or multiple dtilts in a panic, though, as you'll too vulnerable on a miss.
- Dash grab/attack: (Examples: ZSS, Captain Falcon) If someone rolls away from you, none of the above options are apt to much punish them (as they're making space rather than 'aggro rolling'), but if you have a quick ground speed and a good grab distance and/or grab speed, you can chase down their roll to punish all the same. See, when your foe rolls, they immediately lose the chance to punish dashing (which inherently limits your options, as you then must stop or pivot or so on in order to use half your ground moves). That, and they're guaranteed to be vulnerable for the split-second that their roll ends... meaning you can get a free grab out of it. Falcon's 'boosting' grab range is one of the most excellent examples of a standard grab for this, as his runspeed and grab range and throw follow-ups are all fantastic, while ZSS's tether grab makes this similarly easy, if a it riskier on a miss.
Another option, albeit far more situational, is to stick to the skies. Someone who over-rolls will often lack in shielding skills, which will make them vulnerable to low-lag or otherwise 'safe' aerials, as the roll can even work as a frame trap in some situations. Jigglypuff and Kirby are the easiest examples, as their air moves are quick and they have the extra jumps to take advantage, so you create a situation where their options are 'shield and react', 'roll and have no follow-up', or 'get hit'. If they roll, but you're still safe, you're winning, as they have a chance to be hit, while they can
never kill you by rolling. Once you get a feel for how each foe rolls, you can often chase them to the edge and then hit them with a charged side-smash behind you just for the sake of insult to injury, but focus on using
safe, low-lag moves that don't leave you vulnerable
first. Getting greedy with smashes once you spot predictable movement is the mental trap that allows them what success they have.
As for counters, my recommendation is to try out Diddy Kong. As with LM punishing rolls, Diddy does a solid job of being a terror to counter-spammers given his insane grab game, quick attacks, bananas-of-doom, and ranged tech-grab besides. Grabbing ignores the problem entirely, and so the more your game revolves around grabs, the less counters even matter. Beyond that, as with rolls, don't go for greedy smashes-- it's quick, low-lag attacks that're hard to counter and that do minimal damage even if they
are countered. Also, try a few counter characters yourself to learn the timing-- any time you 'feel' you
might use counter, assume they
will, and, when they do, just grab them (don't be greedy and go for a smash, focus on the basics). In the air, it's important to note that you generally cannot be hit if you're below them when they counter, and many counters have other such dead-spots and vulnerabilities-- I've shielded Lucario/Greninja counters before, I've made LMs SD with counters, and I've laughed at plenty of Marths who successfully counter Elfire... just to burn regardless, because it's multi-hit. Projectiles can help immensely, as well, though that's dodging the problem a bit too much in some cases, as the counter will still typically nullify a projectile.
Either way, be sure to look at your replays of losses against such-- keep a special eye out for every time you attack before they roll, for every missed smash, and for every dash you make that ends in a no-mixup dash attack (or even dash grab), as these are some of the main things that'll cause such roll-vulnerability in your play. There is most certainly a such thing as 'safe' rushdown, but trying out more defensive characters can 'force' you to appreciate the value of carefully timed tilts and grabs, which then means you'll just be that much more comfortable incorporating them into your rushdown play. Never underestimate the value of cross-training by playing
as your foe for a bit-- I learned to use Robin's terrible grab after a while with Sheik, I learned to roll chase after a while with Mac, and I learned the limitations of Lucina far quicker from playing /as/ her than against her.
...Or you could just play exclusively on Battlefield-- having platforms rather means rolls are far less useful, and, since you have to know who you're playing against to do so, you can then either get lengthy practice against that strategy... or just punch them for doing so, if local.
