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Sydney Smash Thread - Comrades Of Xeno -

Bjay

Bjay

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What an awesome tournament, glad it wasn't cancelled, and I'm glad I could make it in the end.
 
Shaya

Shaya

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ShayaJP
I wanted to discuss with [you], Sydney about the prospect of items being added into brawl tournament play.
Please read this topic here for some MORE information after you read what I've said: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

Pretty much, there are several things in Brawl that can be altered to change the game's nature, for better or for worse, I am not really willing to hear "NOs, I don't like items, what about the COMPETITIVE NATURE, WHAT ABOUT JUST THE BETTER CHARACTER AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE STAGES MAN, AND THE RANDOMNESS" without actual proper experimentation.

There are a lot of items in Brawl that are devestatingly overpowered, broken, and etc. There are no reasons to have these items in competitive play. Like MK's down B, D3' INFINITE, and perhaps soon to be some other character dependant techniques which can be argued to be game breaking, there are items that are in this boat as well. So alas, there is no need to argue that "OMG I will DEFINATELY LOSE A MATCH WITH ITEMS ON BECAUSE THE GUY GOT A SMASHBALL". (Like some people like to go "OMG MY OPPONENT PICKED ICE CLIMBERS AND CHAIN GRABBING ISNT BANNED THE MATCH IS OVER")

There are many items that one can deem near neutral. Many characters in the game can generate items of their own (Diddy). These characters aren't seen as Godly. The items they generate are not broken. There are other items within the game that are of similar aptitude.

I am perhaps proposing that for our next tournament we 'try it out'. Especially within doubles, which I believe will have the most positive results. And at least in the swiss section of singles. I will make the hypothesis that the current tournament standings (i.e. ranks/winners) would not change drastically or at all with the inclusion of some items (but hey, I can assure you that the difference in 'tiers' would probably shrink drastically). And items in themselves promote another area of skill gaining/learning; while still allowing the GREAT players to remain GREAT.

The link above has a 'neutral' item list. They propose the following items for 'neutral play':
(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Bunny Hood) (Beam Sword) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

Among the list there are only: Warp Star, Beam Sword, Star Rod, Superscope, MSB (Hey wait, Snake has ONE OF THOSE) and Greenshell which are 'powerful'. However, I can probably still guarantee you that MK's downsmash has better speed to power ratio over MOST of those items (except msb).

Warp Star can be seen a mile away. Beam Sword has different lengths for each character, ho ****, but the smashes themselves aren't godly, super scope to actually 'kill' needs to be charged (learn to dodge), and green shells - well, dunno.

I think it's worth a shot. Adding items also means that the skill of GRAB TOSSING will almost be a must for the next tournament. (Do I hear people complaining about a TECHNICAL SKILL PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO LEARN? THAT ISN'T EXACTLY EASY AND DOES TAKE PRACTICE?)


Pretty much I've been nutting this out and discussing this with various persons. From all walks of smash life. If it works it may continue to work, what's stopping us? The general statement is "Brawl may be more competitive with items", it's something I believe is perhaps possible, and as I believe, so does CAO, and unreon and Bjay seem interested as well.

inb4 shayaisanazi.
 
CAOTIC

CAOTIC

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Congratulations on running what sounds like a very successful tourney Shaya - I'm proud of you.

I've always endorsed items - ever since I played in items tourneys in California, I was amazed at Ken wielding 2 swords with Marth in Melee - I have little doubt items would be any less freaking cool in Brawl - as long as its moderated. Although items introduce the randominity factor, it makes up for it by reducing camping.

Although I have no problem with the way Smash is played now, it doesn't hurt to take on a bit of risk - how else would you know it it works?
 
Shaya

Shaya

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ShayaJP
That last paragraph didn't come out right. I wasn't trying to say CAO said "Brawl is ****, it needs items".

Conversations between us has been more about "Would items balance the competitive nature of the game"?

And as I would like to exemplify; experimentation is the only way.
 
ComboTurtle

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CAOTIC said:
Congratulations on running what sounds like a very successful tourney Shaya - I'm proud of you.

I've always endorsed items - ever since I played in items tourneys in California, I was amazed at Ken wielding 2 swords with Marth in Melee - I have little doubt items would be any less freaking cool in Brawl - as long as its moderated. Although items introduce the randominity factor, it makes up for it by reducing camping.

Although I have no problem with the way Smash is played now, it doesn't hurt to take on a bit of risk - how else would you know it it works?
Click to expand...

they played item games at evo2k seemed sorta stupid but looked alot more fun.
 
Gords

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items in brawl tourneys I think will be a great idea, to at least give of go. I like the items selection mentioned as well.
 
CAOTIC

CAOTIC

Woxy
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It's kinda sad how items actually has the potential to increase the complexity of Brawl lol :)

Man now I wanna run an items tourney... oh, wait...
 
The 2t

The 2t

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Am I still reading Smashboards? Jesus people. Neutral and item being used in the same sentence? Food a neutral item? FOOD? Hmm...

And catching items in midair in Brawl is not technical at all, the game practically does it for you.

Seriously. Just play Melee.
 
X

xeno

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Yeah um, I was automatically picking up items -without even meaning to- by rolling and stuff. Annoying when I want to say JAB and an item is in the way. Let's play Me-lee this week!
 
Shaya

Shaya

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The 2t said:
Am I still reading Smashboards? Jesus people. Neutral and item being used in the same sentence? Food a neutral item? FOOD? Hmm...

And catching items in midair in Brawl is not technical at all, the game practically does it for you.

Seriously. Just play Melee.
Click to expand...
Food that heals 1-10% is completely gamebreaking :psycho:

And I guess you people don't know what glide tossing is after all... Good job coming from a completely biased perspective.

I don't play with items. I even avoid them while playing brawl with just casual friends. My stance on whether items is potentially viable? I just want to experiment on a larger scale.
 
X

xeno

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It's a nice thought, sure. But face it. It's completely random.
IMO if items gave a warning before they dropped, so you can see their shadow 5 seconds before they appear -- THEN FINE because you know it's there and can fight over it. But in all smash games they just randomly appear. Player's make no signiicant decision then bam, item appears. 0_0
Fine, define glide tossing for us..
 
Shaya

Shaya

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Glide Tossing is a move similar to a wavedash that is initiated with the use of items, in Brawl.

It's movements are similar, but it's uses are less so compared to Melee's wavedash. Some characters use it very effectively though (Diddy Kong).

Each character has a different glide toss movement, some don't at all (I know Toon Link does not). Luigi can glide toss backwards half the length of FD, for example.

Pretty much, you hold your shield, you START to roll in a direction and then throw the item inbetween the shield going down and you actually rolling. Depending on the direction of your roll and the direction you throw the item you'll move different distances. The timing required is reasonbly fast.

Other than that, the items proposed are not meant to be instant win items. Food that heals one minor attack, items that can be used to strategise or just completely ignored. Let's theorise we do this and suddenly one person everytime they get the Beam Sword is undefeatable and will always win (Well, this is the home run bat situation), the item would no longer have a place...

I didn't exactly want this to turn into anti-item conversation. I suggested we TRY IT OUT. IT WONT HURT US. And I hope people will at least give the idea enough respect to still participate.
 
K

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Glide tossing is limited to one very useless wavedash, that creates only the tinyest amount of depth and technicnal skill and a game that is lacking in the latter... Diddy I think is an exception as he has some tricky stuff he can do with his Bananas, but to compare it to anything the wavedash could do from melee is just silly...Wave dashing made melee the game it was...it created mass amounts of mindgames, depth and technical skill.

As for items....well Brawl is boring, items may make it more fun to play... But the randomness is ****... Also Shaya, you asked for this discussion when you suggested items... But really I dunno...Melee would never withstand a suggestion for items...but Brawl is brawl...maybe it deserves to have items in play...
 
CAOTIC

CAOTIC

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play items in melee kulla its sooooooo good - havent you seen some of those character combos with the fan? zomg sex, some of that stuff is possible in melee item tourney wub!
 
Shaya

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People act like items have always been OFF in Smash tournaments since the beginning of time.

And there we have it "Wave dashing made melee the game it was...it created mass amounts of mindgames, depth and technical skill."

Glide Tossing may not MAKE Brawl, but THE 'neutral' items (so to speak) + glide tossing can amount to such a large array of 'mindgames, depth and technical skill'.
Randomness? Okay, how about we ban D3's Forward B, coz sometimes it will be a spike and CAN KILL YOU. None of the items being turned on are even capable of being so kill-easy as the waddle-throw.

Brawl's technical will still dominate. Items will be on 'low'.

I know for example one MOVE I can practice with Marth + Items. Glide toss + fully charged shield breaker.
I can assure you it's very hard to do.

And Kulla what I said was: I am not really willing to hear "NOs, I don't like items, what about the COMPETITIVE NATURE, WHAT ABOUT JUST THE BETTER CHARACTER AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE STAGES MAN, AND THE RANDOMNESS" In other words I'd love to hear discussion about the actual OPTIONS we could have with it, not WTF JESUS ITEMS SUCK WORLDS EXPLODING DOOMS DAY HOLY **** OMG. I think for 'rules', for the first one we have with items, it will be "Items in swiss only, items on low". It may even speed up the game; meaning more swiss rounds to prove your worth anyway.

Pretty much that's all anyones said. People seem to think that this is the permanent future of Brawl. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We could set precendence on a worldly scale of continual item tournaments while still producing the best players in the Australia region; who are able to compete in the non-item tournaments with the same prowess.
 
X

xeno

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The wavedash is far more important then being able to hit Jump + Direction + Shield
The "technical aspect" of wavedashing is minimal, and is not important (it wouldn't be any different if there was a "wavedash button", or a third control stick on the controller).

It's used as a momentum canceller, momentum modifier (dash>wavedash>dash, momentem changed depending on which direction you wavedashed back/down/forward), "bait" eg move forward, wavedash back just before an attack comes out, your opponent launches an attack, whiffs. Also gives more defensive maneverbility -- your attacker has a harder time predicting where you are going to be if you are dashing and wavedashing heaps.

So it's quite an important technique, and it's more relevant to gameplay then l-canceling is (which is argued as the most useful technique -- and I'd agree, yet wavedashing changes the options of the game, L-cancelling only allows you to maintain momentum in a binary way "yes / no you recovered fast enough".

Another reason "technical skill" is cited as a big part of Melee is because learning combos is a) fun and b) challenging and c) awesomely tricky with DI & ASDI and teching. Since there aren't as many combos to learn a lot of gameplay is "missing".

If you look back up at the momentum paragraph, you'll see that you don't have nearly the sort of options in Brawl as you do with Melee's wavedash. Some characters have useful/special techniques in Brawl that give them more options (Squirtle sliding for example) -- Melee's universal wavedash meant everyone had these things available to them, making it "balanced" in the sense that everyone had access to it (not everyone has access to infinite chain throws!!)

second edit: Similarly, and I'm not being rude by suggesting this, you could play more Melee and see the difference the wave-dash makes first hand.
 
Bjay

Bjay

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lol at MvC2 references, especially Marth's Up + B = Shin Shoryuken xD niiiiiiiiiice
 
Dedu

Dedu

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that was more fun to watch than seeing ken get item ***** by a CPU playerrrr.

hmmmm! best crews evarrr.
 
C

CRUMBS

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rawr i signed up, cant wait to play potentially laggy games.


anyway on a different topic

My gamecube controller is dying after 7 years and i need to buy a new one.

Is there any place in Sydney where you can buy one, or can you only get them online?
 
perpetual ownage

perpetual ownage

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CRUMBS said:
My gamecube controller is dying after 7 years and i need to buy a new one.

Is there any place in Sydney where you can buy one, or can you only get them online?
Click to expand...
You can buy new white Japanese Gamecube controllers at playasia.com. Just search Gamecube controllers and it should be the first result.
 
unreon

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CRUMBS said:
I watched it! Very nice. Armbars are nasty and they're surprisingly easy to pull off (well when they're on the ground)
Click to expand...
Haha, thanks! Do you watch, or train, or both?

You'd think armbars are easy to pull off on the ground, even in side control, but you'd be surprised how difficult it is to stop people from pulling guard, or even half-guard again. My brother's got a sick half guard and its annoying as hell being tied up in it ><
 
SummonerAU

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Shaya, thinking about what you are saying it does make sense. I think perhaps that maybe items which don't give as much advantage but allow for your glide tossing. I'm thinking mainly of Mr Saturns. Maybe you could stop the argument of items spawning randomly by creating a custom stage which is arranged in such a way that all the items are funneled to a point in the middle of the stage, I have no idea how you would do that without affecting the top of stage KOs. As for an item list, I'll type up my ideas now based on my memory of items (probably gunna miss a few)

Hammer - Instaban
Golden Hammer - slightly faster instaban
Home Run bat - Hmmm, I'd say ban but if you get hit with it you probably would have been punished anyway
Beam sword - Increased range, ban
Mr Saturn - Basic thrown projectile which destroys shields, I'd keep him
Crates - random chance of rolling crates which really do mess with you, ban
Timers - Slows down oppenents/yourself ban
Assist trophies - Ban
Final Smashes - I'd allow them simply because of the entertainment value of them
Party Balls - I see no reason against them
Laser - Ban
Food Items - Ban
Team Heal - This could provide many entertaining moments in team battles
Bananas - Diddy Kong already has them
Bumper - Ban
Capsules - Ban
Barrels - Ban
Dragoon -Ban
Cracker Launcher - Ban
Fan - Hmmm, I can't really decide
Bom-omb/Smart bomb/gooey bomb/motion sensor - ban
Mushroom/Poison Mushroom - Ban
Warp star- Ban
Spring - I'd leave on

Everything else I'd also ban.
As you can see, my choices of items if I had them on are rather limited.
I thought you'd prefer a post about an item list rather than a post about why items are ****. I'm sure I don't even need to do that as there will be posts like that.
What a huge post, I didn't know I had it in me
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