Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[zferolie]

Ok, i saw Verge's newest comment, and I cannot see why Sakurai would do this. Thinking it logically, Isaac was an AT in Brawl, then removed. They only way he would be coming back was popularity... but why just make in an AT again? That just baffles the mind. Plus that item that is almost certainly a Golden Sun item, and that screen shot... I am at a loss of words on to why.

From what it seems like to me, Verg is just very angry with everyone calling him wrong and a lier, and wants to troll back to the Isaac fans, who may be the loudest.

As for the Grinch leak, I am leaning more and more on fake, but I am certain Isaac and Ken are in the game, as well as Inceniroar. those 3 are a shoe in. I also see shantae as a shoe in but I am a bit biased there. I feel like we will get 7 characters at least this direct. 40 minutes is plenty for that. My bets are Isaac, Ken, Shantae, Incineroar, a SE Rep(Geno, DQ character, or maybe sora), a Retro/WTF, Rhythmn Gal, and Medusa for 8 shown off. if more then that it would be all echos, as I feel we won't get any more then 6 uniques, as only 5 of them will get stages.

BTW, i hate that people are thinking Ken will be announced in Incineroars trailer... echos don't get shown in offical trailers unless they are an echo of that fighter...

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Gonna be very, very emotional here. I write with tears in my eyes.

Given Verge's credibility. This is a hard de-confirmation. No trolling, No Mathew, no secret surprise by insiders to have us blown away. None of that Bull****. It's over. Look out ourselves. We were given a second chance at LIFE. We got cut from the assist roster. We campaigned for the ballot. But it was all for nothing! We spent this whole launch cycle talking about how F****** ensured he was after Ridley. And after K rool. We NEVER looked at the bigger picture. The truth is...WE. NEVER. HAD. A. CHANCE! I'm saying this with tears in by eyes. But look at the view count of this thread. 200. That's right, a "major" character just got deconfirmed and only 200 showed up.


The bigger truth is. We're the only one's that cared. As far as the media is concerned this "Victory" should be amazing to all 200 golden sun fans left in the world. Why is that all the videos on youtube would always prop up Geno, K rool, and Ridley? Never touching Isaac? Because, as far as they're concerned we're ants. 890,000 views? 28,500 reply's? Doesn't matter to them. NEVER mattered to them. "It's an anime JRPG character" they said. No one ever talked about him out of this group. So here we are again. Forced to accept our fates kicking and screaming. We never had a platform to present ourselves from. We never had someone before Billy to prove we exist. So...no wonder the worst comes....

I'll go down with the ship. It's been an honor.

Dude...I'm sorry but no. I respect that you always try to stay on top of what the internet scuttlebutt is and you put in a lot of legwork in helping us stay informed of what different supposed leakers are saying, but you're giving up too easily here.

What is Verge's credibility? A couple of partially correct guesses and a whole bunch of flaming, defensiveness, and attention-whoring.

Points in our favor:
Rathalos Tweet
Sprout Item
Ballot Performance
Ridley and K. Rool being in, showing that the ballot is playing a big role here
Grinch leak
PapaGeno and a bunch of other leakers all giving completely contradictory information or outright saying that Isaac is in

Points against us:
GameFAQs hates us just like they hate anything that goes against their hivemind
Vergeben saying Isaac is an AT and then posting a dumb gif
Isaac is admittedly a niche pick compared to others, but at this point, almost every no-brainer character is in.

Obviously Verge could still be right and Assist Trophy would be a worst case scenario for us, but we'll know that for a fact when the Direct hits. There's no need to go into it with a fatalistic attitude. The truth of the matter is, Grinch leaks or Vergeben or whatever else, NOBODY knows what's in the game right now, and unless someone gives me video evidence of Incineroar picking up an Assist Trophy with Isaac inside and Fire Lariating him off the screen, I'm going to continue believing Isaac is playable.

There'll be plenty of time for the pity party after the Direct. Right now we have no concrete evidence for all this defeatist attitude.

 

[N3ON]

Verg's record is spotty at best, and terrible at worst.

Please remember, Verg said Zero was going to be a guest character this time around.

You're right, he did say that. He then improved his vetting process, maintained the reliable sources, and has had no errors regarding Smash since that claim seven or eight months ago.

 

[zferolie]

Dude...I'm sorry but no. I respect that you always try to stay on top of what the internet scuttlebutt is and you put in a lot of legwork in helping us stay informed of what different supposed leakers are saying, but you're giving up too easily here.

What is Verge's credibility? A couple of partially correct guesses and a whole bunch of flaming, defensiveness, and attention-whoring.

Points in our favor:
Rathalos Tweet
Sprout Item
Ballot Performance
Ridley and K. Rool being in, showing that the ballot is playing a big role here
Grinch leak
PapaGeno and a bunch of other leakers all giving completely contradictory information or outright saying that Isaac is in

Points against us:
GameFAQs hates us just like they hate anything that goes against their hivemind
Vergeben saying Isaac is an AT and then posting a dumb gif
Isaac is admittedly a niche pick compared to others, but at this point, almost every no-brainer character is in.

Obviously Verge could still be right and Assist Trophy would be a worst case scenario for us, but we'll know that for a fact when the Direct hits. There's no need to go into it with a fatalistic attitude. The truth of the matter is, Grinch leaks or Vergeben or whatever else, NOBODY knows what's in the game right now, and unless someone gives me video evidence of Incineroar picking up an Assist Trophy with Isaac inside and Fire Lariating him off the screen, I'm going to continue believing Isaac is playable.

There'll be plenty of time for the pity party after the Direct. Right now we have no concrete evidence for all this defeatist attitude.

Gamefaqs also just HATES shantae. I never listen to anyone that uses Gamefaqs as their main source of giving out info. its worst then 4chan sometimes.

You're right, he did say that. Then he improved his vetting process, maintained the reliable sources, and has had no errors regarding Smash since that claim seven or eight months ago.

He missed Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and Dark Samus. i would call those misses.

 

[Deleted member]

Do I need to post this?

 

[N3ON]

He missed Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and Dark Samus. i would call those misses.

And you'd be right, but missing characters isn't synonymous with being incorrect since he never claimed he was providing the full picture.

It's like when people condemned Gematsu for not listing Rosalina, even though Sal Romano never claimed it was a comprehensive account of the roster.

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

The Smash community has already turned on him pretty hard. Even some of these other leakers have been open about being fed up with the insults and harassment from the community as well.

I don't like leakers in general, but I can't pretend the community has acted any better than them in terms of insults and attacking fan bases.

Man, ****-LEAKS! xD

Personally I havent paid attention to a single one, I've put my eggs in the Rath basket and am waiting for confirmation from Sakurai/Nintendo.

Since the Rath tweet remains to be the only reliably suggestive Isaac hint actually coming from the creators. That and his absense from the AT showcase.

Leeks are for geeks! xD

Edit: Im genuinely surprised that Verges comment has so many people questioning Isaacs possibility. Like we're really having this discussion all over again? Thats it I'm out, Isaacs not in, game over. Master Chief is a duck hunt echo and Sakurai himself is the only new fighter

 

[Gioka]

I think we should all relax, do a praying circle and wait for one more day until we get the information we so desperately need. Insiders are getting crazy with the clashing information, sure some have a record, some don't, some's record are not as clean as they seem, some are not clean at all, but after all, there is just 0 point in losing hope right now. We have to wait, hope and pray for the sun to shine on us tomorrow. I stated before I don't think Isaac is an AT because of how rude it would be to Isaac fans (the biggest group of supporters in current first party contenders and apparently the second most wanted behind Banjo Kazooie) and as I said, that's not how you do business, specially after the teases and because Nintendo certainly has people watching how the fandom moves, it is basically impossible they didn't see the reaction to the Rathalos Tweet, the GS trademark renewal, the previous direct or the Grinch leak. It would just be a kick in the balls and could be super negative for Nintendo with Smash being their strongest card right now. Unless they are giving us DLC character confirmed along the AT (for example Isaac AT and Felix DLC, or Matthew AT and Isaac DLC that could lead to confusion because of their similar design), it just wouldn't sit right.

If Isaac isn't confirmed and not shown as AT we just push forward to DLC

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Man, ***-LEAKS! xD

Personally I havent paid attention to a single one, I've put my eggs in the Rath basket and am waiting for confirmation from Sakurai/Nintendo.

Since the Rath tweet remains to be the only reliably suggestive Isaac hint actually coming from the creators. That and his absense from the AT showcase.

Leeks are for geeks! xD

I mean, don't forget the biggest actual evidence for his inclusion: the mysterious sprout item that happens to look just like Growth Psynergy.

Honestly an Assist Trophy status is like the biggest blow we could receive because it means there's essentially 0 possibility of coming in as DLC. But I've enjoyed 4 previous Smash games without Isaac and I'll enjoy this one too. If Sakurai doesn't think he belongs, then there's nothing we can do. But I'll be darned if I listen to anything Verge has to say. If that's the hand we're dealt, then I'll believe it when I see it with my own eyes on the Direct.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Leak's are not conspiracy's. They're a discussion point. People saying that insider's are "hiding the truth" is conspiratorial. Saying that insider's are paid off, or told to cover things up, is conspiratorial. However. When the most prominent leaker just goes ahead, and nonchalantly deconfirms your most wanted character.

Hardly. That isn't believing a conspiracy, that is questioning why all the "leakers" have suddenly turned against the Grinch Leak. Not a one believes it or is entertaining it and only releasing information, like Assist Trophies, they have never touched in the past.
Everyone is so quick to rip the tongue out of the Grinch Leak's mouth to prove it is a liar, but it only draws suspicion.

This being a leaker you trust based on his current record, yeah I got upset.

Except there is no reason to trust his current record as gospel. That you hanging on to every word that Vergeben claims is true despite him getting his information either right or wrong. He is piggybacking off of other "leakers" and is guessing.

Unless you think that i'm some sort of long form troll. Who's waiting to strike at the exact moment. I think you're jumping to conclusions about me.

I am judging based on what I have seen you do. Your negativity offers nothing besides discouraging others into believing what you believe. It is fine that you do not believe in Isaac, but it is also fine that nobody else really cares to hear it or does not believe Vergeben.
Edit: I noticed you simply disregarded me trying to ask you for evidence as to why you believe these "leakers"/"insiders" and why I should believe you. You have not done either.

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

I mean, don't forget the biggest actual evidence for his inclusion: the mysterious sprout item that happens to look just like Growth Psynergy.

Can someone repost this? I have not seen this mysterious sprout item...

Edit: Saw it, faith increases.

 

[zferolie]

And you'd be right, but missing characters isn't being incorrect since he never claimed he was providing the full picture.

It just seems odd when after Richter was announced he then claims he heard it but didn't say anything because it wasn't sure. Yeah he could be telling the truth, or could be lieing.

I just see no reason why Sakurai would bring back Isaac as an AT. Wheres the logic behind it?if he was an At in the last game too I could see more of a reason, but this just seems really fishy.

If Verge is right, then he is, but for now just calling bull****. Also I doubt we are only getting the 3 he is saying as well. Incineraor, an SE, and Ken? In 40 minutes? Not happening. Those 3 are 100% in for sure, but I know there are more that people aren't saying, or they can't confirm what they are hearing is real or fake. I am still on the boat we are getting either 8 more(total 80 unique fighters) or 12 more, but NO MORE THEN 6 UNIQUES. We have 5 stages missing, and they all should be going to newcomers. not every newcomer gets a stage, unique ones from returning series haven't gotten one(Ridley and K Rool,) So Incineroar shouldn't be getting one. That means the other 5 will be, so 6 at the most. 2 echos will make 8 characters, for an 80 roster. Sounds solid. 4 more echos MAYBE if sakurai is keeping the final roster a multiple of 2, 3, and 4 for Smashdown(or just a multiple of 4)

BTW: My Predictions: Shantae, Isaac, Incineroar, Rhythm Gal, Retro/wtf(Mach Rider, Ayumi, lip honestly anyone can fit here), SE REP(Either Geno or Slime, sora feels more DLC) for the Uniques
Medusa, Ken(if only 8 characters), Shadow, Ms Pac-Man, Impa, Dixie(if 12)

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Also, last thing I'll say here:

If Isaac is an Assist Trophy again, why not reveal it right away? Why deconfirm Ashley, Bomber Man, Shovel Knight, Krystal, Waluigi, etc. but not Isaac, who was wanted more than probably any of them except Waluigi? Or why not show him alongside Gray Fox and Scizor when showing returning Brawl content? And then, on the very final Direct, just say, "oh btw here's Isaac. He's an Assist Trophy again lel."

That's just asking for people to be up in arms. Unless the team is somehow unaware of Isaac's very passionate fanbase. It'd be less cruel to just leave him out again altogether.

 

[StrawHatX]

And you'd be right, but missing characters isn't synonymous with being incorrect since he never claimed he was providing the full picture.

It's like when people condemned Gematsu for not listing Rosalina, even though Sal Romano never claimed it was a comprehensive account of the roster.

Isn’t that convenient? He gives out 2 or 3 VERY safe picks and then the rest “I don’t know about the whole roster though”. So then when he gets one or two right everyone praises him and then when a character is revealed he didn’t say anything about “Well he never claimed he knew the whole roster!!!!!!!”

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Hardly. That isn't believing a conspiracy, that is questioning why all the "leakers" have suddenly turned against the Grinch Leak. Not a one believes it or is entertaining it and only releasing information, like Assist Trophies, they have never touched in the past.
Everyone is so quick to rip the tongue out of the Grinch Leak's mouth to prove it is a liar, but it only draws suspicion.



Except there is no reason to trust his current record as gospel. That you hanging on to every word that Vergeben claims is true despite him getting his information either right or wrong. He is piggybacking off of other "leakers" and is guessing.



I am judging based on what I have seen you do. Your negativity offers nothing besides discouraging others into believing what you believe. It is fine that you do not believe in Isaac, but it is also fine that nobody else really cares to hear it or does not believe Vergeben.

What are you saying? That being pissed off, ridiculously sad, and having some basic human emotion in response to really bad news on something you invested a lot of time isn't allowed? Look. I said i'm going down with the ship. And I MEAN it. I'm going down with the ship. I may not have any hope for his inclusion anymore, a 5% rating at best from me. But that doesn't mean i'm not sticking it out. I cried. I owe it to myself to see this through to the very end.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I think we got way into insiders and different leaks all over. And honestly, I don’t ever want to talk this much about people without sources or proof of their information. It doesn’t matter how much you get right or wrong, if you have nothing to your name and no proof, you’re not relevant to the conversation.

Even if Verge is right, I think he’s handled his role pretty poorly and I wish we hadn’t become so desperate to let him exist as the gold standard of this game for as long as we did. I hope he’s wrong, and I hope we realize not to pay so much attention to insiders and people who can’t substaniate claims beyond I’ve heard. We became so desparate for information this time around when we thought our most beloved characters might get in that we abandoned a lot of civility and supported people left and right without reason.

Say what you will of the Grinch leak. I’m at least looking at something that can be worked with rather than the words written by a user name for the millionth time with literally nothing backing them. Getting things right doesn’t mean credibility and shouldn’t inherently be of note.

I don’t want us supporting another character like Vergeben, even if they’re absolutely right with everything they say, I expect better proof in the future personally at least.

 

[shellshocker18]

Popping in from Banjo thread again to give 1 last ounce of support to Issac before release. You guys got multiple contradicting leaks, mysterious items, and assist trophy history jerking with your emotions. This 700 page behemoth of an Issac community deserves to not get gutted tomorrow.

I hope tomorrow's characters blow everybody out of the water and (to sound pretty selfish) aren't just wider genral audience pleasers. After 20 years i hope Sakurai has decided Ultimate is where he will feed the hunger of all the most vocal character camps, even though he often considers the silent majority (a good aspect to have, but man i wanna see more hardcore camps get their one wish)

 

[Oracle_Summon]

What are you saying? That being pissed off, ridiculously sad, and having some basic human emotion in response to really bad news on something you invested a lot of time into allowed? Look. I said i'm going down with the ship. And I MEAN it. I'm going down with the ship. I may not have any hope for his inclusion anymore, a 5% rating at best from me. But that doesn't mean i'm not sticking it out. I cried. I owe it to myself to see this through to the very end.

I did not ask for sob stories, I asked for evidence. You have yet to give them to me. I asked for LeakedIn accounts, you have yet to give them to me. Nothing, at all, that you have given me has any substantial evidence behind it and for any reason for me to give it any thought.
You have yet to give me any concrete evidence despite my constant asking for your sources.
Again, until you give me some actual reason to believe you your statements will be discarded.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

What are you saying? That being pissed off, ridiculously sad, and having some basic human emotion in response to really bad news on something you invested a lot of time isn't allowed? Look. I said i'm going down with the ship. And I MEAN it. I'm going down with the ship. I may not have any hope for his inclusion anymore, a 5% rating at best from me. But that doesn't mean i'm not sticking it out. I cried. I owe it to myself to see this through to the very end.

Dude I think what everyone is trying to tell you is that you're giving up too early unless you've somehow already watched the Direct yourself. If you trust what Verge says sight unseen without any proof, that's on you, but I trust what my eyes show me, not what some anonymous internet German claims with nothing to back it up.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

Can someone repost this? I have not seen this mysterious sprout item...

Here you go!

This was spotted from the Wendy's Tour Video.

Edit - It often helps just to have it on hand if anyone's got any doubts about Isaac/Golden Sun's chances for Smash Ultimate.

 

[VexTheHex]

Also, last thing I'll say here:

If Isaac is an Assist Trophy again, why not reveal it right away? Why deconfirm Ashley, Bomber Man, Shovel Knight, Krystal, Waluigi, etc. but not Isaac, who was wanted more than probably any of them except Waluigi? Or why not show him alongside Gray Fox and Scizor when showing returning Brawl content? And then, on the very final Direct, just say, "oh btw here's Isaac. He's an Assist Trophy again lel."

That's just asking for people to be up in arms. Unless the team is somehow unaware of Isaac's very passionate fanbase. It'd be less cruel to just leave him out again altogether.

Well while I see this argument and see it's potential.

There is still Gardevoir, Saki, Sable Prince, Kat & Ana, Dillon, Excitebiker, and plenty more in both Pokemon and Assist Trophy territory missing.

Goodness, I didn't realize there was as many still missing as there is! Did we get a final count of the ATs? I recall that at some point, a # being thrown around. Why are so many of our babies missing? :O

 

[zferolie]

Honestly, let me say this. WHO THE **** CARES WHAT VERGEBEN OR ANY LEAK SAYS?! I think Vergeben using a Drop mike gif is just increadibly rude and nasty, and was a targeted attack against Isaac fans, BUT WHO CARES?! He's just some guy who posts on gamefaqs, thats all. Same for any leaker.

DO NOT LEAK A LEAKER OR ANYONE STOP YOU FROM SUPPORTING A CHARACTER YOU WANT IN THE GAME!!!!

Until Nintendo says otherwise, EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE. Remember that. Assholes like Vergeben are just trying to piss off people that were attacking him during the Grinch leak, and honestly, why were people attacking him? And who cares about the grinch leak?! Bother could be fake, and it doesn't effect isaac's chances in the slightest.

 

[CheckmateChuck]

Dude I think what everyone is trying to tell you is that you're giving up too early unless you've somehow already watched the Direct yourself. If you trust what Verge says sight unseen without any proof, that's on you, but I trust what my eyes show me, not what some anonymous internet German claims with nothing to back it up.

Vergeben isn't German. The one time he wrote something in German it was clearly Google translated. He just pretends to be for whatever reason.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Well while I see this argument and see it's potential.

There is still Gardevoir, Saki, Sable Prince, Kat & Ana, Dillon, Excitebiker, and plenty more in both Pokemon and Assist Trophy territory missing.

Goodness, I didn't realize there was as many still missing as there is! Did we get a final count of the ATs? I recall that at some point, a # being thrown around. Why are so many of our babies missing? :O

Yeah that's a great point of course, but (and I mean no disrespect to any of their fans) none of those have fanbases anywhere on the level of Isaac, and none of them have this much circumstancial evidence pointing to their inclusion. It's certainly PLAUSIBLE that he's an AT and they just somehow saved it for last, but I like to think Sakurai would have either left him out altogether or ripped the band-aid off right away...

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

Here you go!

This was spotted from the Wendy's Tour Video.

Edit - It often helps just to have it on hand if anyone's got any doubts about Isaac/Golden Sun's chances for Smash Ultimate.

Whadd'ya think it does guys? aha

 

[Chiroz]

Isn’t that convenient? He gives out 2 or 3 VERY safe picks and then the rest “I don’t know about the whole roster though”. So then when he gets one or two right everyone praises him and then when a character is revealed he didn’t say anything about “Well he never claimed he knew the whole roster!!!!!!!”

I don't think Simon and Snake were safe picks at all. Almost no one expected Snake to return. And while Simon was the most obvious inclusion after Snake was confirmed and Bomberman was shown as an AT, before that happened claiming both Snake and Simon, 2 3rd parties from the same company and a company people thought we would never get back even for 1 character, wasn't a "safe bet" at all.

I will agree that Isabelle and Ridley were "safe choices". Yea Ridley has been ignored for 3 games in a row, but I was certain Ridley was in this game, he had a very good chance even though people might say he didn't.

 

[N3ON]

Isn’t that convenient? He gives out 2 or 3 VERY safe picks and then the rest “I don’t know about the whole roster though”. So then when he gets one or two right everyone praises him and then when a character is revealed he didn’t say anything about “Well he never claimed he knew the whole roster!!!!!!!”

Only revisionism would posit that at the times they were claimed, Ridley, Simon, Snake and Incineroar were "safe picks". Moreover, he didn't choose characters that were, at one time, seen as much safer picks like Decidueye, Shadow, or Elma.

So no, it's not convenient, and it's reductionist to suggest what he's done is played it safe.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Only revisionism would posit that at the times they were claimed, Ridley, Simon, Snake and Incineroar were "safe picks". Moreover, he didn't choose characters that were, at one time, seen as much safer picks like Decidueye, Shadow, or Elma.

So no, it's not convenient, and it's reductionist to suggest what he's done is played it safe.

Except he got Isabelle wrong about being an echo. He has gotten things right and wrong, just like anybody who does not have "insider" information. There is also the issue of piggybacking off of other "leakers".

 

[VexTheHex]

Yeah that's a great point of course, but (and I mean no disrespect to any of their fans) none of those have fanbases anywhere on the level of Isaac, and none of them have this much circumstancial evidence pointing to their inclusion. It's certainly PLAUSIBLE that he's an AT and they just somehow saved it for last, but I like to think Sakurai would have either left him out altogether or ripped the band-aid off right away...

True, Isaac and Shadow stand out as the biggest two. I wouldn't under estimate Dillon, Saki, Skull Kid, or Sable Prince though either. Each of them have some merit as well. I just honestly didn't realize we had THIS many missing, Pokemon has a lot as well but let's be honest... 95% of them have no chance. Gardevoir is a popular one that is missing though. It's weird Kid Icarus has neither confirmed.

Barbara
Chain Chomp (no chance)
Devil
Dillon
Elec Man
Excitebikers
Helirin (no chance)
Infantry
Isaac
Jill
Kat & Ana
Lakitu
Magnus
Mr. Resetti
Nightmare (Boss?)
Phosphora
Ray MK III (IP dropped)
Saki
Sable Prince
Shadow
Skull Kid (Boss?)
Tingle (Demoted to stage hazard?)

 

[Gioka]

There is no point in fighting between us. Some believe in Vergeben, some don't, some believe the Grinch Leak and some don't. Some don't believe either. It is ok, we can believe in whatever helps us live through the mess this reveal cycle has been and that is perfectly fine. What matters is that we as Isaac's supporters stay together till the very end, and that means when we can't even fight for DLC. When Sakurai says he is not going to take Isaac's popularity or fandom into account in whichever form (that can include an AT, even if I believe AT is not a definite killer status). Until then, keep hope or gather whatever feeling you have right now and let's sit together to see what happens to the Golden Sun tomorrow.

 

[Chiroz]

Only revisionism would posit that at the times they were claimed, Ridley, Simon, Snake and Incineroar were "safe picks". Moreover, he didn't choose characters that were, at one time, seen as much safer picks like Decidueye, Shadow, or Elma.

So no, it's not convenient, and it's reductionist to suggest what he's done is played it safe.

While I think it's pretty certain Incineroar is in, probably shouldn't count him just yet on lists such as this. I mean you never know what could happen (although I agree he's in).

I do agree with the point you're trying to make though. Definitely revisionism.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

True, Isaac and Shadow stand out as the biggest two. I wouldn't under estimate Dillon, Saki, Skull Kid, or Sable Prince though either. Each of them have some merit as well. I just honestly didn't realize we had THIS many missing, Pokemon has a lot as well but let's be honest... 95% of them have no chance. Gardevoir is a popular one that is missing though.

Barbara
Chain Chomp (no chance)
Devil
Dillon
Elec Man
Excitebikers
Helirin (no chance)
Infantry
Isaac
Jill
Kat & Ana
Lakitu
Magnus
Mr. Resetti
Nightmare (Boss?)
Phosphora
Ray MK III (IP dropped)
Saki
Sable Prince
Shadow
Skull Kid (Boss?)
Tingle (Demoted to stage hazard?)

Not gonna lie man, I had to google who Sable Prince was just now o.O so I don't know how much of a contender he was, but I'll take your word for it. Shadow's omission didn't seem as suspicious to me because Knuckles was revealed and then Richter's inclusion made it pretty clear that he would be an Echo, but yeah imagine if Shadow AND Isaac are just announced as ATs anyway. Like....why, though? Why now at the 11th hour?

 

[VexTheHex]

Not gonna lie man, I had to google who Sable Prince was just now o.O so I don't know how much of a contender he was, but I'll take your word for it. Shadow's omission didn't seem as suspicious to me because Knuckles was revealed and then Richter's inclusion made it pretty clear that he would be an Echo, but yeah imagine if Shadow AND Isaac are just announced as ATs anyway. Like....why, though? Why now at the 11th hour?

Well Sable Prince's biggest fight is as a retro, the snake/frog gimmick could also appeal to Sakurai. It's a stretch, but he has a shot. I'm mainly hoping he isn't dropped. Also I edited the post before you replied, I pointed out Kid Icarus has had neither confirmed back yet. While I don't see either that high up there at all, it's strange neither have surfaced.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Whadd'ya think it does guys? aha

If it is a Growth item we have reason to believe it creates a ladder of vines that one can use to climb. Would fit wth what it does in the games as well as the fact that Ultimate is introducing a ladder attack mechanic... for only a handful of stages. So an item would give that mechanic more purpose. Growth seems to be perfect for that.

 

[Dhragen]

Ok guys, the other day i was going to write a thought i had, but now with all the drama surrounding vergeben, i think it is a good opportunity to share it. But just to clarify, i don't have proofon my claims, it's just a theory i crafted.

I believe the roster that vergeben got from his sources were based on a early list of fighters, like many are pointing out. But what' s Interesting is that all the character that vergeben got, not necesary could come from the ballot if you analize each (besides Ridley, but we know he was exceptionally popular, much before the ballot, even sakurai made alot of comments about him in the past)

Now lets look at the fighters that verg didnt got, which are K. Rool, and pretty much all echo fighters, which we could agreed that all of them were placed high on the ballot.

Where i am going with this? That i believe the early version of fighter that i assume "insiders" got, not considered the ballot into the equation at first, and then sakurai made a final version of the roster after checking the ballot votes, reconsidered some choices of his early list (mostly intact), conceived the idea of echo fighters, and add more popular characters like K. Rool. All the talk of the ballot came back after K Rool reveal, even from sakurai on one of his columns, even stated that he didnt knew about his popularity if it wasn't for the ballot. Him being on a second or final version of the roster with ballot considered could make sense as how verg and other insiders didn't got him o it's time.

But what i find strange its Incineroar. If he was on a early list, he could been revealed already at this point, for me it doesnt make much sense, and how K Rool got confirmed before him, plus Isabelle, another from the early list, confirmed later.

So, i come with this theory. I humbly take the L if i am incorrect, but i think Incineroar was cut and remplaced with King K Rool.

Now hear me out on this: i think that sakurai's team were working on incineroar at one point, but after checking the ballot, he would demeed him low priority and focus development on the behemoth on the room, King K Rool.

At the end Sakurai did a fantastic job on his moveset, his special move were taken straight from his games, his glove from Dk64, dash attack from dk land and....running on 4 legs? ...a Drop Kick Fair? A back throw that slams the opponent head in the floor and drags his victim backwards? And, the most notorious move, a BACKBREAKER UP THROW?! Those moves sounds very similar to how a wrestler or a Heel could fight, or how Incineroar could fight, which could be the reason of the idea of him getting cut, maybe they found a better fit of incineroar's playstyle/moveset on King K. Rool (since he can use a variety of unortodox proyectiles, mixing it with wrestling-like attacks would have a better "heel-feel")

Transfering some incineroar attacks/animations to K. Rool would made his development faster, and have him in time for a early-mid reveal. And if you look at both of them, they kind of share a similar (but not the same) body structure, with long and muscular arms, tiny head with almost no neck, large body and tiny legs. With that in mind and some changes, i believe that transfering animation wouldn't be much time-consuming.

So that's all, i hope you guys have the time to read this, and maybe discuss this idea/theory i have, which i believe it could be apossible scenario, but who knows? (besides sakurai of course)

 

[IcyBrawler]

Also, last thing I'll say here:

If Isaac is an Assist Trophy again, why not reveal it right away? Why deconfirm Ashley, Bomber Man, Shovel Knight, Krystal, Waluigi, etc. but not Isaac, who was wanted more than probably any of them except Waluigi? Or why not show him alongside Gray Fox and Scizor when showing returning Brawl content? And then, on the very final Direct, just say, "oh btw here's Isaac. He's an Assist Trophy again lel."

That's just asking for people to be up in arms. Unless the team is somehow unaware of Isaac's very passionate fanbase. It'd be less cruel to just leave him out again altogether.

This is one of the reasons why I'm not 100% on what Vergeben said. Shadow is a similar situation, also.

 

[StrawHatX]

Only revisionism would posit that at the times they were claimed, Ridley, Simon, Snake and Incineroar were "safe picks". Moreover, he didn't choose characters that were, at one time, seen as much safer picks like Decidueye, Shadow, or Elma.

So no, it's not convenient, and it's reductionist to suggest what he's done is played it safe.

I have always said when talking about this guy that I fully believe he found out about the E3 presentation so he knew about everyone coming back and about Ridley. I think that much is obvious.

After that he “leaked” Simon, Isabelle, Incineroar, and Ken.

I predicted Simon and Isabelle before I knew who this guy was. Simon is the last big NES era character to have not been in Smash and Nintendo and Konami have been pals for awhile now. Castlevania is a big franchise. I couldn’t believe people DIDN’T think Simon was likely. But I guess I’m in the minority. And Isabelle is the face of Animal crossing which has one rep. Everyone thought she’d be in as an Echo. Including old Vergy. She was actually a unique fighter.

Incineroar and Ken were leaked by him after the August Direct when we saw Simon get an Echo (which by the way Verg somehow didn’t know about despite apparently knowing about Simon. How the hell is that even possible? I dunno). So then it’s was obvious third party characters could have Echos and he went with the bold choice of Ken. Whoa.

Gen 7 is the newest generation of Pokémon. It was always going to be Decidueye or Incineroar. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Didn’t know anything about any of all the other newcomers. Even a big name like K. Rool. That’s weird. But then that would be a risky guess unlike Ken or Isabelle.

 

[Gioka]

Not gonna lie man, I had to google who Sable Prince was just now o.O so I don't know how much of a contender he was, but I'll take your word for it. Shadow's omission didn't seem as suspicious to me because Knuckles was revealed and then Richter's inclusion made it pretty clear that he would be an Echo, but yeah imagine if Shadow AND Isaac are just announced as ATs anyway. Like....why, though? Why now at the 11th hour?

Sable prince has been a contender for the retro character, specially since Lip's stick appeared as an item again. But he didn't have much fandom or recognition before his AT showed in 4. It would still stand out weirdly to me that Isaac and Shadow specially get held up for this long when a lot of people want them/ have speculated on them. Like why wait until it is a big snowball that is going to explode in your face? Same as Skull Kid in case he is shown as AT again, like... Why? Shadow and Skull Kid had other ATs shown from their specific games that could perfectly replace them as AT representation while promoting them (either to playable echo or not or bosses). So why wait this long to show they actually remained the same, instead of showcasing their ATs together with the new ones "interacting"?

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

I did not ask for sob stories, I asked for evidence. You have yet to give them to me. I asked for LeakedIn accounts, you have yet to give them to me. Nothing, at all, that you have given me has any substantial evidence behind it and for any reason for me to give it any thought.
You have yet to give me any concrete evidence despite my constant asking for your sources.
Again, until you give me some actual reason to believe you your statements will be discarded.

You accused me of being a fake fan. I gave you more than enough to prove that's wrong.

Personally I don't really care if you believe what I did or who I talked too today. But to prove this guy is legit. Here you go.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sephazon

Also included is an image from about 2 hours ago. He was asked the same thing, same server.

 

[Chiroz]

I have always said when talking about this guy that I fully believe he found out about the E3 presentation so he knew about everyone coming back and about Ridley. I think that much is obvious.

After that he “leaked” Simon, Isabelle, Incineroar, and Ken.

I predicted Simon and Isabelle before I knew who this guy was. Simon is the last big NES era character to have not been in Smash and Nintendo and Konami have been pals for awhile now. Castlevania is a big franchise. I couldn’t believe people DIDN’T think Simon was likely. But I guess I’m in the minority. And Isabelle is the face of Animal crossing which has one rep. Everyone thought she’d be in as an Echo. Including old Vergy. She was actually a unique fighter.

Incineroar and Ken were leaked by him after the August Direct when we saw Simon get an Echo (which by the way Verg somehow didn’t know about despite apparently knowing about Simon. How the hell is that even possible? I dunno). So then it’s was obvious third party characters could have Echos and he went with the bold choice of Ken. Whoa.

Gen 7 is the newest generation of Pokémon. It was always going to be Decidueye or Incineroar. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Didn’t know anything about any of all the other newcomers. Even a big name like K. Rool. That’s weird. But then that would be a risky guess unlike Ken or Isabelle.

The reason Simon wasn't considered likely is because if someone from Konami was getting in, it was Snake, then after that it was a huge battle between Simon and Bomberman. Bomberman is just as iconic as Castlevania and is arguably much easier to envision as a Smash character. Obviously after E3 where Snake and Bomberman were both shown everyone thought Simon was coming, but Vergeben talked about Simon before E3, which means Simon was only Konami's 3rd most requested char to be in Smash.