Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[TappyBat]

oh yes lucky crit! can vouch! someone get him

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Looking at the posts from yesterday morning...

It really bothers me at how ungrateful some of you are.

I'm gonna challenge this.

How are we "ungrateful" for wanting better representation? How is our disappointment a surprise to you? Not that it makes the game worse just because he's not in, I just feel they're missing a big opportunity.

That's who I wanted the most, and if I don't get that, I'll still campaign for him anyway.

There's nothing "ungrateful" with not liking being an assist trophy.

Because it answers none of the concerns that the fans have with the status of the franchise.

 

[LuminoZero]

Imagine the scene cutting to Isaac on the cliff after that, preparing to summon Judgement. Then Shulk has his future vision thing-y and the first one we see get vaporized is Isaac. Alternatively I can see Isaac on the ground beside Link, both fending off the light beams with their respective abilities before getting vaporized. Really when that cut scene came up, I actually thought Isaac would show up at the beginning for some reason lol.

Isaac just looks up as the boss casts Cruel Ruin.

"...Not this **** again."

 

[Confirmation]

Looking at the posts from yesterday morning...

It really bothers me at how ungrateful some of you are.

I mean, the Direct was basically a decimation of speculation. Can't blame people for being bummed after that; people perked up later.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I think talking to those 3 I've posted could help alot we already have Billybo10K on our side so if you wanna campaign and get the name out there talk to them see how it works out just be respectful and kind dont sound crazy and I think we could actually achieve this if not isaac in smash something at all you know
Another one I forgot is PlayerEssence he supports golden sun as well

 

[SPEN18]

yeah I should clarify that even when I'm giving a negative outlook on things, I'm not doing it to prevent positivity or because I'm angry or ungrateful or whatever. I'm just trying to present what, in my eyes, seem to be the most likely explanations. And you can disagree with those things and we can talk about it civilly, np.
Would I like the game better if Isaac was in it? Yeah. But I am not gonna flame Sakurai or Nintendo over it; it's their game and ultimately they can put in whoever they want. It just might be that I respectfully disagree with those decisions.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

yeah I should clarify that even when I'm giving a negative outlook on things, I'm not doing it to prevent positivity or because I'm angry or ungrateful or whatever. I'm just trying to present what, in my eyes, seem to be the most likely explanations. And you can disagree with those things and we can talk about it civilly, np.
Would I like the game better if Isaac was in it? Yeah. But I am not gonna flame Sakurai or Nintendo over it; it's their game and ultimately they can put in whoever they want. It just might be that I respectfully disagree with those decisions.

You do you, Spen. I'll still support Isaac till the very end.

 

[Deleted member]

This is going to make me unpopular, but... some of you need to calm the hell down. You seem to forget how much worse it was four years ago when we had NO Isaac whatsoever.

Do I want him playable? Absolutely! Do I hate MarioTehPlumber for screwing us over? Damn straight! But, the salty reactions I'm seeing make it sound like we got our nads sawed off with a rusty knife. It's not the end of the world. We're still not a bloody sticker like Dixie Kong. And, something's nagging me that Assist Trophies aren't chopped liver this time around, that they are going to serve a higher purpose in the story of the game. Isaac has his own original ability that Sakurai himself probably suggested he have (which probably ignores the elemental aspect of his abilities, but... again...) added to in-game moves. Even Guile and Nikki have their own sections of the Options menu.

Besides, there's an allegory for Isaac being in Brawl and Ultimate; in Brawl, Isaac's inclusion possibly gave Camelot the chance to convince Nintendo to let them try to make Dark Dawn. With Isaac in Ultimate, they might try at a new game once more, especially with Aces having met the satisfactory requirements that Nintendo had wanted. All we have to do is continue letting them know we want to play that new game and they'll likely make it. Even if it's probably the final game in the series, at least we'll be able to enjoy the series once more.

Heh... I'M being the optimist for once. This is unbecoming of me, given how I behaved years ago, but attitudes can change. I'm not suggesting you all start drinking the Kool-Aid or stop acting "ungrateful", because you have a right to vent your frustrations and anger, but acting like children isn't going to change anything.

 

[TappyBat]

I think talking to those 3 I've posted could help alot we already have Billybo10K on our side so if you wanna campaign and get the name out there talk to them see how it works out just be respectful and kind dont sound crazy and I think we could actually achieve this if not isaac in smash something at all you know
Another one I forgot is PlayerEssence he supports golden sun as well

i'd talk to lucky, but i dunno what to say.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

It's still not over, until Sakurai tells me personally that Isaac can never be in Ultimate or Smash ever.

I'm not gonna give it up. And neither should all of you.

This fanbase should be given more info about this franchise, because this assist trophy still tells us nothing.

 

[TappyBat]

hi 25 lukers care to help us out?

 

[NoOtherPersona]

i'd talk to lucky, but i dunno what to say.

Hey who's ever in charge of the Twitter they need too do it we got s bunch of twitters some discord but not leader

 

[SPEN18]

Spen. I'll still support Isaac till the very end

I should also clarify that I haven't given up on Isaac. I will keep asking for him and talking about him with friends. Just wanna do so respectfully is all

 

[RandomAce]

Maybe Isaac being an AT was just a consolation prize?

I’m pretty sure with the amount of support Isaac has gotten, and seeing the large scope of the game, this could’ve been the team’s way of pleasing GS fans with what they could’ve managed.

I’m staying optimistic dammit! If Sakurai noticed Isaac’s popularity... maybe... just maybe he is planning him for DLC. Maybe not the first 5, but potential DLC after that.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Hey who's ever in charge of the Twitter they need too do it we got s bunch of twitters some discord but not leader

I’ll see what I can do. Isaac: Venus Adept runs another Twitter. He should do the same I suppose.

Also yeah we don’t have a leader because we’re all sort of in the dark here lol. Which wouldn’t be much of an issue if we had a leader ironically...

I guess none of us have really decided on it.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I’ll see what I can do. Isaac: Venus Adept runs another Twitter. He should do the same I suppose.

Also yeah we don’t have a leader because we’re all sort of in the dark here lol. Which wouldn’t be much of an issue if we had a leader ironically...

I guess none of us have really decided on it.

Well I mean it is hard when your in the dark like that but I gave yall options on who to help us out we've got supporters in big places we just need to start a larger outlet to get our name out there

 

[Confirmation]

I'd say party leader is something to be decided as a whole unless people are really into it. Granted having a group of a few people in contact with each other who all help put stuff together may be preferable

 

[StrawHatX]

Well guys, I was pretty broken after the massacre that was known as the November 1st Direct, but **** it.

Let’s make history and get an assist trophy to playable status in the same game!

 

[Frosty Pops]

In several videos I've watched, it's become a thing for people to timestamp you right to the reaction of Isaac's assist reveal. Things like this simply give Isaac more publicity, even if it's people going, 'Lol rip their dreams!'

If this becomes Isaac's meme it just brings more awareness to him and his series and keeps him relevant despite not being playable like Ridley's too big and Chrom's another day (this one was obnoxious, even when he was disconfirmed he was freaking everywhere lol). And now these characters have garnered so much attention that they're playable now.

When Sakurai gets around to watching some reactions, the more he continues to see Isaac's reveal get the most dramatic emotion from everyone, the better it helps to keep him on his radar.

Even one of the pro players made a video and was upset by all of the characters getting assists instead of playable or echo.

 

[_Frank_]

Hey you guys. I’ve been lurking and reading through your guys’ posts as a guest for about 200-300 pages now, and finally decided to join up with you all.
I’m sad about the AT news for Isaac as he was the only character I wanted in this game.
I also don’t really know what I can do to help with petitioning to Nintendo for either another Golden Sun game... But I want to help! So if there’s anything I can do I’ll give it my best shot!

 

[Frosty Pops]

Welcome to being a Nintendo fan


The latest main series FE game (Echoes is a remake)
FE Heroes is the mobile game
Fire Emblem isn't a bad series, just that Nintendo split the fanbase and now it's hard to get into the series without one side 'attacking' you
There are some really nice fans though, don't let them scare you.

The mobile game is not that impressive...except for the very expansive roster of characters (i wish the actual games could try to combine characters)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Let’s make history and get an assist trophy to playable status in the same game!

The theme of SSBU shouldn't be "everyone is here" or "heroes vs. villains", it should be "screw all your rules". I've said this in the Lycanroc thread but I'll say it here too: This is a Smash where Young and Toon Link coexist, PT still gets in after Sheik and ZSS got split off, a clone has a clone, said clone is still part of another character's moveset, third party series have multiple fighters, and some other third parties get boss battles, spirits, and assists without playable characters.

 

[TappyBat]

Hey you guys. I’ve been lurking and reading through your guys’ posts as a guest for about 200-300 pages now, and finally decided to join up with you all.
I’m sad about the AT news for Isaac as he was the only character I wanted in this game.
I also don’t really know what I can do to help with petitioning to Nintendo for either another Golden Sun game... But I want to help! So if there’s anything I can do I’ll give it my best shot!

welcome to the team frank! there's a discord you're free to join if you want. lessee as for how you can help, if you help if you have a twitter try dming nintendo about isaac maybe? but be nice!

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Hey you guys. I’ve been lurking and reading through your guys’ posts as a guest for about 200-300 pages now, and finally decided to join up with you all.
I’m sad about the AT news for Isaac as he was the only character I wanted in this game.
I also don’t really know what I can do to help with petitioning to Nintendo for either another Golden Sun game... But I want to help! So if there’s anything I can do I’ll give it my best shot!

All you need to do is speak up. And you have. Welcome! Enjoy your stay your soul is ours. cough. Sorry. Had something in my throat.

Also who else here thinks XenoWarriorX would be a great leader?...

I kid I kid... although who knows. Maybe Xeno has the right attitude for the job?

 

[NoOtherPersona]

welcome to the team frank! there's a discord you're free to join if you want. lessee as for how you can help, if you help if you have a twitter try dming nintendo about isaac maybe? but be nice!

Where is the discord I've been looking all day?

 

[TappyBat]

Where is the discord I've been looking all day?

yo https://discord.gg/b7YcAa

 

[_Frank_]

Thanks! :D I’m down to join the discord, although I don’t have a Twitter (granted, there’s no time like the present...). I’m all about being nice, so no worries on that front!
I do make music? I actually studied it in college. I wanted to do video game composition but I wasn’t allowed D’:

 

[Deleted member]

Man y'all gonna make me actually play Golden Sun and stop being a cheerleader and start actually supporting Isaac lol

Not that I'm complaining GS looks fun

 

[TappyBat]

Thanks! :D I’m down to join the discord, although I don’t have a Twitter (granted, there’s no time like the present...). I’m all about being nice, so no worries on that front!
I do make music? I actually studied it in college. I wanted to do video game composition but I wasn’t allowed D’:

sure some fan remixes wouldn't hurt I guess

 

[BluePikmin11]

Ever since the beginning of Smash Ultimate speculation, I always felt that determining a newcomer’s chances primarily on the ballot was a bad idea. The biggest mistake Isaac fans made when speculating was ignorance on several factors that likely prevented the character’s inclusion in Ultimate.

The biggest thing Isaac fans ignored is not thinking about the treatment the Golden Sun series got in Brawl & Smash 4 and how it connects to Sakurai’s possible viewpoint of the franchise. Even at the time GS was at its peak popularity, with the first two games selling nearly as well as the first two Pikmin games prior to Brawl’s project plan, Isaac was relegated to an Assist Trophy role. Sakurai did not even mention Golden Sun as a huge franchise when he posted his thoughts on big Nintendo series in the All Star page in the Brawl Dojo:

“When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like "Animal Crossing," "Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day," and "Wii Sports" it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently.”

Considering these factors, I felt it was safe to assume that Sakurai viewed Golden Sun as a niche franchise, in the same roots as Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Sin and Punishment, and Starfy. Isaac’s exclusion as a playable character in Brawl should have been a major factor considered when determining Isaac’s chances in Ultimate.

Golden Sun’s content treatment was worse in Smash 4, with only two music tracks present. At that time for Smash 4’s project plan, Golden Sun declined in sales when the third installment of GS, Dark Dawn released in 2010. And at the time when I was speculating for Smash 4 after the base game’s full roster was revealed, I thought that Dark Dawn had given Sakurai a more neutral viewpoint towards Golden Sun when he was deciding newcomers. Even at the time of Smash 4 speculation, prior to full game roster leaked reveal, Isaac fans viewed the character as likely primarily due to popularity.

This was two Smash games in a row where Sakurai likely could have considered Isaac, but Sakurai chose not to include him during the project plans of Brawl/Smash 4. Even when Isaac had the distinct move-set potential, peak franchise popularity, and high fan-popularity to be a fighter during Brawl’s planning phase, he was not made into a playable fighter. Even when Isaac became highly requested character again thanks to Dark Dawn making the character relevant to Smash fans again, Sakurai still chose not to include Isaac in Smash 4. The only explanation I thought of at the time that explained the lack of Golden Sun content and playable Isaac in the past two Smash games was GS not being a big enough franchise for Sakurai.

The logic of popularity helping Isaac was revived when Ridley was revealed as a fighter in Ultimate, explained in a Treehouse stream that the purple space pirate was decided upon due to the high amount of requests, which led to many speculators feeling that the ballot would be a major factor to deciding most newcomers. This gave speculators a large amount of confidence that Isaac would be in this time. The logic of ballot popularity further cemented with the Ratholos screenshot (Which I personally considered to not be a hint, moreso just a screenshot that Sakurai liked and wanted to share on Twitter for the cool visual aspects). At that point, it became harder to address to Isaac fans that possible negative factors like franchise dormancy and GS content treatment in past Smash games could lead to Isaac’s exclusion as a fighter. People were only addressing non-existent issues for Isaac like relevancy and confidence grew bigger.

In my personal perspective now, Ultimate speculators made a big mistake to start assuming that the ballot would help Isaac’s chances. Even when popularly requested characters like Krystal and Bomberman were shown as Assist Trophies in Ultimate’s E3 demo, Isaac fans continued to see his chances as high and treated Isaac as a special snowflake that apparently had no obstacles in the way. People on Smashboards had the mindset that Sakurai will add the remaining big three that have been requested since Brawl, with Isaac & Geno being one of them, even when arguably the most requested newcomer since Brawl, Waluigi, was disconfirmed as an Assist Trophy with the Nintendo E3 2018 Direct. Waluigi should have been the first notable sign that not every long-time request was going to be fulfilled, but it was not to many, and it led to unrealistic expectations of Isaac being in for most people. In general, Isaac fans never considered the bigger picture when determining Isaac’s chances for Ultimate. That ballot logic that held on for months backfired big-time when the Final Smash Ultimate direct revealed Isaac as an Assist Trophy, which led supporters to this currently depressing situation today.

...

...

...

So what do I think of Isaac’s chances for DLC and future Smash games? I think the possibility of Isaac happening for DLC and future Smash games is non-existent as of the current situation. But that can change easily…

I believe there is hope to making Golden Sun worthy of playable representation to Sakurai for the next Smash game. I feel fans should not only demand for a new Golden Sun game on the Switch, but also address criticism to Camelot about the latest Golden Sun installment. The studio’s newest games have had issues with several fans. Dark Dawn did not fix the game design issues of not being able to backtrack for Djinn and the story did not expectations for many fans compared to the first two GS games. Despite the notable gameplay improvements, Mario Tennis Aces was very lackluster in content, especially with the story mode campaign. In general, Camelot as of recent have been taking shortcuts.

I believe by growing a high demand for a new Golden Sun title and addressing criticism, we can enforce Camelot to change to a point where they not only develop GS4, but also really evolve the game design and story that will make Golden Sun a critically acclaimed/popular series again that is a worthy successor to the first two GS games. We can encourage Camelot to make a Golden Sun game that has the chance to really impress Sakurai. An impression that will give the Golden Sun series the edge and make it a more standout RPG series to Sakurai. An impression that made Sakurai want to include Ness in Smash 64 & Shulk in Smash 4 (With MOTHER 2 and Xenoblade being truly stand out RPGs at their time). Get Camelot out from just making DLC content for Mario Tennis Aces.

To every Golden Sun fan. Show the demand to Camelot. Show the passion to Camelot. Show the criticism to Camelot. That way, there can be a bright future for Golden Sun. If this can be accomplished, someday, we might finally see Isaac playable in Smash.

Spoiler: SPOILER

(Side note: I hope I addressed my points well. I was feeling anxious as hell when I wrote this. I apologize if this comes across as off-putting)

 

[_Frank_]

sure some fan remixes wouldn't hurt I guess

I know it’s not much, but I can most certainly do something along those lines! I get my new laptop this upcoming week so I can get started on it then (also figuring out how to quote and stuff, that’s fun.)

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Thanks! :D I’m down to join the discord, although I don’t have a Twitter (granted, there’s no time like the present...). I’m all about being nice, so no worries on that front!
I do make music? I actually studied it in college. I wanted to do video game composition but I wasn’t allowed D’:

Well I didn’t have a Twitter either until yesterday lol https://mobile.twitter.com/TheSunRisesAga2 if you make one go ahead and follow. Also heck yeah, make some fan music. Doesn’t matter if it’s good or not, as long as your hearts in it.

Man y'all gonna make me actually play Golden Sun and stop being a cheerleader and start actually supporting Isaac lol

Not that I'm complaining GS looks fun

if only Nintendo made it easier to obtain these games. If you ever can I highly recommend them.

And there’s nothing that says you can’t support Isaac. Even if you don’t have a lot of firsthand knowledge of the game! Although that’s purely your choice and yours alone.

 

[KoopaSaki]

Honestly we all need to contribute to Isaac in some way. I plan to do it with youtube and my pro smash career coming up as I will cosplay as Isaac at every tournament I go to be it locals or official venues like EVO. I will simply devote my gifts to helping you guys out. As for the big thing we all rally for, next sunday could be the day we get through to nintendo somewhat. Also this may sound crazy, but perhaps we could in fact ask the Waluigi guys to help us out as well.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Ever since the beginning of Smash Ultimate speculation, I always felt that determining a newcomer’s chances primarily on the ballot was a bad idea. The biggest mistake Isaac fans made when speculating was ignorance on several factors that likely prevented the character’s inclusion in Ultimate.

The biggest thing Isaac fans ignored is not thinking about the treatment the Golden Sun series got in Brawl & Smash 4 and how it connects to Sakurai’s possible viewpoint of the franchise. Even at the time GS was at its peak popularity, with the first two games selling nearly as well as the first two Pikmin games prior to Brawl’s project plan, Isaac was relegated to an Assist Trophy role. Sakurai did not even mention Golden Sun as a huge franchise when he posted his thoughts on big Nintendo series in the All Star page in the Brawl Dojo:

“When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like "Animal Crossing," "Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day," and "Wii Sports" it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently.”

Considering these factors, I felt it was safe to assume that Sakurai viewed Golden Sun as a niche franchise, in the same roots as Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Sin and Punishment, and Starfy. Isaac’s exclusion as a playable character in Brawl should have been a major factor considered when determining Isaac’s chances in Ultimate.

Golden Sun’s content treatment was worse in Smash 4, with only two music tracks present. At that time for Smash 4’s project plan, Golden Sun declined in sales when the third installment of GS, Dark Dawn released in 2010. And at the time when I was speculating for Smash 4 after the base game’s full roster was revealed, I thought that Dark Dawn had given Sakurai a more neutral viewpoint towards Golden Sun when he was deciding newcomers. Even at the time of Smash 4 speculation, prior to full game roster leaked reveal, Isaac fans viewed the character as likely primarily due to popularity.

This was two Smash games in a row where Sakurai likely could have considered Isaac, but Sakurai chose not to include him during the project plans of Brawl/Smash 4. Even when Isaac had the distinct move-set potential, peak franchise popularity, and high fan-popularity to be a fighter during Brawl’s planning phase, he was not made into a playable fighter. Even when Isaac became highly requested character again thanks to Dark Dawn making the character relevant to Smash fans again, Sakurai still chose not to include Isaac in Smash 4. The only explanation I thought of at the time that explained the lack of Golden Sun content and playable Isaac in the past two Smash games was GS not being a big enough franchise for Sakurai.

The logic of popularity helping Isaac was revived when Ridley was revealed as a fighter in Ultimate, explained in a Treehouse stream that the purple space pirate was decided upon due to the high amount of requests, which led to many speculators feeling that the ballot would be a major factor to deciding most newcomers. This gave speculators a large amount of confidence that Isaac would be in this time. The logic of ballot popularity further cemented with the Ratholos screenshot (Which I personally considered to not be a hint, moreso just a screenshot that Sakurai liked and wanted to share on Twitter for the cool visual aspects). At that point, it became harder to address to Isaac fans that possible negative factors like franchise dormancy and GS content treatment in past Smash games could lead to Isaac’s exclusion as a fighter. People were only addressing non-existent issues for Isaac like relevancy and confidence grew bigger.

In my personal perspective now, Ultimate speculators made a big mistake to start assuming that the ballot would help Isaac’s chances. Even when popularly requested characters like Krystal and Bomberman were shown as Assist Trophies in Ultimate’s E3 demo, Isaac fans continued to see his chances as high and treated Isaac as a special snowflake that apparently had no obstacles in the way. People on Smashboards had the mindset that Sakurai will add the remaining big three that have been requested since Brawl, with Isaac & Geno being one of them, even when arguably the most requested newcomer since Brawl, Waluigi, was disconfirmed as an Assist Trophy with the Nintendo E3 2018 Direct. Waluigi should have been the first notable sign that not every long-time request was going to be fulfilled, but it was not to many, and it led to unrealistic expectations of Isaac being in for most people. In general, Isaac fans never considered the bigger picture when determining Isaac’s chances for Ultimate. That ballot logic that held on for months backfired big-time when the Final Smash Ultimate direct revealed Isaac as an Assist Trophy, which led supporters to this currently depressing situation today.

...

...

...

So what do I think of Isaac’s chances for DLC and future Smash games? I think the possibility of Isaac happening for DLC and future Smash games is non-existent as of the current situation. But that can change easily…

I believe there is hope to making Golden Sun worthy of playable representation to Sakurai for the next Smash game. I feel fans should not only demand for a new Golden Sun game on the Switch, but also address criticism to Camelot about the latest Golden Sun installment. The studio’s newest games have had issues with several fans. Dark Dawn did not fix the game design issues of not being able to backtrack for Djinn and the story did not expectations for many fans compared to the first two GS games. Despite the notable gameplay improvements, Mario Tennis Aces was very lackluster in content, especially with the story mode campaign. In general, Camelot as of recent have been taking shortcuts.

I believe by growing a high demand for a new Golden Sun title and addressing criticism, we can enforce Camelot to change to a point where they not only develop GS4, but also really evolve the game design and story that will make Golden Sun a critically acclaimed/popular series again that is a worthy successor to the first two GS games. We can encourage Camelot to make a Golden Sun game that has the chance to really impress Sakurai. An impression that will give the Golden Sun series the edge and make it a more standout RPG series to Sakurai. An impression that made Sakurai want to include Ness in Smash 64 & Shulk in Smash 4 (With MOTHER 2 and Xenoblade being truly stand out RPGs at their time). Get Camelot out from just making DLC content for Mario Tennis Aces.

To every Golden Sun fan. Show the demand to Camelot. Show the passion to Camelot. Show the criticism to Camelot. That way, there can be a bright future for Golden Sun. If this can be accomplished, someday, we might finally see Isaac playable in Smash.

Spoiler: SPOILER

(Side note: I hope I addressed my points well. I was feeling anxious as hell when I wrote this. I apologize if this comes across as off-putting)

Your good my guy just hope that means you support us

 

[_Frank_]

Well I didn’t have a Twitter either until yesterday lol https://mobile.twitter.com/TheSunRisesAga2 if you make one go ahead and follow. Also heck yeah, make some fan music. Doesn’t matter if it’s good or not, as long as your hearts in it.

Well I hope it’s good... Haha but I getcha, thanks man. If I end up making a Twitter I’ll most certainly follow I’m actually hoping to make my own music while implementing the instrumentation used in the first two games (ie. Pan flute, synth pad, harp, bass, strings, choir, etc.). You know, as a starting block.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

This is going to make me unpopular, but... some of you need to calm the hell down. You seem to forget how much worse it was four years ago when we had NO Isaac whatsoever.

Do I want him playable? Absolutely! Do I hate MarioTehPlumber for screwing us over? Damn straight! But, the salty reactions I'm seeing make it sound like we got our nads sawed off with a rusty knife. It's not the end of the world. We're still not a bloody sticker like Dixie Kong. And, something's nagging me that Assist Trophies aren't chopped liver this time around, that they are going to serve a higher purpose in the story of the game. Isaac has his own original ability that Sakurai himself probably suggested he have (which probably ignores the elemental aspect of his abilities, but... again...) added to in-game moves. Even Guile and Nikki have their own sections of the Options menu.

Besides, there's an allegory for Isaac being in Brawl and Ultimate; in Brawl, Isaac's inclusion possibly gave Camelot the chance to convince Nintendo to let them try to make Dark Dawn. With Isaac in Ultimate, they might try at a new game once more, especially with Aces having met the satisfactory requirements that Nintendo had wanted. All we have to do is continue letting them know we want to play that new game and they'll likely make it. Even if it's probably the final game in the series, at least we'll be able to enjoy the series once more.

Heh... I'M being the optimist for once. This is unbecoming of me, given how I behaved years ago, but attitudes can change. I'm not suggesting you all start drinking the Kool-Aid or stop acting "ungrateful", because you have a right to vent your frustrations and anger, but acting like children isn't going to change anything.

Not to be a wet blanket; but I honestly feel the Spirits are in a better place DLC wise than an assist like Isaac. Sakurai want's all fighters to be "built from the ground up" right?

 

[Deleted member]

Well I didn’t have a Twitter either until yesterday lol https://mobile.twitter.com/TheSunRisesAga2 if you make one go ahead and follow. Also heck yeah, make some fan music. Doesn’t matter if it’s good or not, as long as your hearts in it.

if only Nintendo made it easier to obtain these games. If you ever can I highly recommend them.

And there’s nothing that says you can’t support Isaac. Even if you don’t have a lot of firsthand knowledge of the game! Although that’s purely your choice and yours alone.

I mean I do support him in terms of wanting him in, I'm one if those guys whi saw him in Brawl and thought "damn he looks cool" and wanter him in since, but by support I meant fanart, memes, music, etc all stuff that's hard to do without access to firsthand knowledge of the ganes. Luckily my new PC is almost finished and doesn't run like garbage so I should be able to emulate GS by the 20th...

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Ever since the beginning of Smash Ultimate speculation, I always felt that determining a newcomer’s chances primarily on the ballot was a bad idea. The biggest mistake Isaac fans made when speculating was ignorance on several factors that likely prevented the character’s inclusion in Ultimate.

The biggest thing Isaac fans ignored is not thinking about the treatment the Golden Sun series got in Brawl & Smash 4 and how it connects to Sakurai’s possible viewpoint of the franchise. Even at the time GS was at its peak popularity, with the first two games selling nearly as well as the first two Pikmin games prior to Brawl’s project plan, Isaac was relegated to an Assist Trophy role. Sakurai did not even mention Golden Sun as a huge franchise when he posted his thoughts on big Nintendo series in the All Star page in the Brawl Dojo:

“When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like "Animal Crossing," "Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day," and "Wii Sports" it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently.”

Considering these factors, I felt it was safe to assume that Sakurai viewed Golden Sun as a niche franchise, in the same roots as Advance Wars, Custom Robo, Sin and Punishment, and Starfy. Isaac’s exclusion as a playable character in Brawl should have been a major factor considered when determining Isaac’s chances in Ultimate.

Golden Sun’s content treatment was worse in Smash 4, with only two music tracks present. At that time for Smash 4’s project plan, Golden Sun declined in sales when the third installment of GS, Dark Dawn released in 2010. And at the time when I was speculating for Smash 4 after the base game’s full roster was revealed, I thought that Dark Dawn had given Sakurai a more neutral viewpoint towards Golden Sun when he was deciding newcomers. Even at the time of Smash 4 speculation, prior to full game roster leaked reveal, Isaac fans viewed the character as likely primarily due to popularity.

This was two Smash games in a row where Sakurai likely could have considered Isaac, but Sakurai chose not to include him during the project plans of Brawl/Smash 4. Even when Isaac had the distinct move-set potential, peak franchise popularity, and high fan-popularity to be a fighter during Brawl’s planning phase, he was not made into a playable fighter. Even when Isaac became highly requested character again thanks to Dark Dawn making the character relevant to Smash fans again, Sakurai still chose not to include Isaac in Smash 4. The only explanation I thought of at the time that explained the lack of Golden Sun content and playable Isaac in the past two Smash games was GS not being a big enough franchise for Sakurai.

The logic of popularity helping Isaac was revived when Ridley was revealed as a fighter in Ultimate, explained in a Treehouse stream that the purple space pirate was decided upon due to the high amount of requests, which led to many speculators feeling that the ballot would be a major factor to deciding most newcomers. This gave speculators a large amount of confidence that Isaac would be in this time. The logic of ballot popularity further cemented with the Ratholos screenshot (Which I personally considered to not be a hint, moreso just a screenshot that Sakurai liked and wanted to share on Twitter for the cool visual aspects). At that point, it became harder to address to Isaac fans that possible negative factors like franchise dormancy and GS content treatment in past Smash games could lead to Isaac’s exclusion as a fighter. People were only addressing non-existent issues for Isaac like relevancy and confidence grew bigger.

In my personal perspective now, Ultimate speculators made a big mistake to start assuming that the ballot would help Isaac’s chances. Even when popularly requested characters like Krystal and Bomberman were shown as Assist Trophies in Ultimate’s E3 demo, Isaac fans continued to see his chances as high and treated Isaac as a special snowflake that apparently had no obstacles in the way. People on Smashboards had the mindset that Sakurai will add the remaining big three that have been requested since Brawl, with Isaac & Geno being one of them, even when arguably the most requested newcomer since Brawl, Waluigi, was disconfirmed as an Assist Trophy with the Nintendo E3 2018 Direct. Waluigi should have been the first notable sign that not every long-time request was going to be fulfilled, but it was not to many, and it led to unrealistic expectations of Isaac being in for most people. In general, Isaac fans never considered the bigger picture when determining Isaac’s chances for Ultimate. That ballot logic that held on for months backfired big-time when the Final Smash Ultimate direct revealed Isaac as an Assist Trophy, which led supporters to this currently depressing situation today.

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So what do I think of Isaac’s chances for DLC and future Smash games? I think the possibility of Isaac happening for DLC and future Smash games is non-existent as of the current situation. But that can change easily…

I believe there is hope to making Golden Sun worthy of playable representation to Sakurai for the next Smash game. I feel fans should not only demand for a new Golden Sun game on the Switch, but also address criticism to Camelot about the latest Golden Sun installment. The studio’s newest games have had issues with several fans. Dark Dawn did not fix the game design issues of not being able to backtrack for Djinn and the story did not expectations for many fans compared to the first two GS games. Despite the notable gameplay improvements, Mario Tennis Aces was very lackluster in content, especially with the story mode campaign. In general, Camelot as of recent have been taking shortcuts.

I believe by growing a high demand for a new Golden Sun title and addressing criticism, we can enforce Camelot to change to a point where they not only develop GS4, but also really evolve the game design and story that will make Golden Sun a critically acclaimed/popular series again that is a worthy successor to the first two GS games. We can encourage Camelot to make a Golden Sun game that has the chance to really impress Sakurai. An impression that will give the Golden Sun series the edge and make it a more standout RPG series to Sakurai. An impression that made Sakurai want to include Ness in Smash 64 & Shulk in Smash 4 (With MOTHER 2 and Xenoblade being truly stand out RPGs at their time). Get Camelot out from just making DLC content for Mario Tennis Aces.

To every Golden Sun fan. Show the demand to Camelot. Show the passion to Camelot. Show the criticism to Camelot. That way, there can be a bright future for Golden Sun. If this can be accomplished, someday, we might finally see Isaac playable in Smash.

Spoiler: SPOILER

(Side note: I hope I addressed my points well. I was feeling anxious as hell when I wrote this. I apologize if this comes across as off-putting)

This solution personally feels FAR too long term and even less achievable than getting Sakurai to upgrade Isaac. I'm not waiting for Smash 6 to get the Golden Boy.

 

[_Frank_]

I mean I do support him in terms of wanting him in, I'm one if those guys whi saw him in Brawl and thought "damn he looks cool" and wanter him in since, but by support I meant fanart, memes, music, etc all stuff that's hard to do without access to firsthand knowledge of the ganes. Luckily my new PC is almost finished and doesn't run like garbage so I should be able to emulate GS by the 20th...

Oh, yes! Definitely play it when you get a chance it will definitely open up those avenues once you do, but you’ll also get an even deeper understanding for the community’s love for Isaac. I easily play the first two games at least once a year, they’re heavily integrated into my life. I’m even running a Golden Sun inspired D&D campaign. :D But bottom line, yes! Play the game!

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

I posted it on youtube but i'll post it here

*Cue sad music
Today, our Golden Boy was disconfirmed, he was disconfirmed by Daddy Sakurai, while we'll express our gratitudes for his work our Issac didn't make it in. We will remember Issac
Rest in Peace
Less We Forget
and Good Luck as assist