Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[?!?!?!]

It was pretty blatantly obvious that Heroes vs Villains was just for K. Rool's trailer. There's zero evidence anywhere else that its any more than that. And the fact that they saved it for K. Rool's trailer is telling, as its that whole buildup dynamic.

And on top of that I'm pretty sure k rool's trailer is titled "rivals". His trailer specifically is titled that, so it has nothing to do with the other fighters revealed

 

[Pwnapplez]

Ridley and K. Rool were two of the most requested characters for Smash and just happened to be Villains (pulls out trumpet). There's probably no Heroes/Villains theme.

Back to back Villains. I see one more, Skull Kid.

Plus when you look at the forbidden 4 atm Isaac, Geno, Skull Kid, and Bandana Dee 3 are heroes.

If neogaf is right with the whole Isaac/Felix thing, that could still fit

 

[Istry555]

The thing about loz18 is that apparently he saw or read (or a friend of his did) a few of the character/game cinematics (or worked on them or something and is breaking an NDA). That's how he knew about K. Rool. That's why he thinks Skull Kid is in (because Skull Kid is apparently in a cinematic but loz18 says he can't be sure if he's playable or just a boss, though he guesses playable). His idea of the Heros vs Villains theme probably just came from seeing/reading the first part of the K. Rool cinematic and was not a general thing. I don't believe it's an actual theme of the game (or they would have said so) so you can't really apply the idea to guess the remaining newcomers.

The Neogaf leak has very little credibility, I think, because of the whole Galacta Knight thing.

 

[LasermasterA]

I honestly was unable to find anything concrete details in the direct.

But GOD. Why does Sakurai have so much usage of yellow? There's yellow here, and there's yellow there! Overkill, imo.

Isaac's hair is yellow.

Isaac confirmed.

We did it guys :D

 

[N3ON]

The thing about loz18 is that apparently he saw or read (or a friend of his did) a few of the character/game cinematics. That's how he knew about K. Rool. That's why he thinks Skull Kid is in (because Skull Kid is apparently in a cinematic but loz18 says he can't be sure if he's playable or just a boss, though he guesses playable). His idea of the Heros vs Villains theme probably just came from seeing/reading the first part of the K. Rool cinematic. I don't think it's an actual theme of the game (or they would have said so).

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

However, more incredulous than the heroes vs. villains thing, imo, is the fact that loz keeps saying newcomers will be based on upcoming promotional opportunities, when that seems to be the opposite of what's going on. Skull Kid and K. Rool are close to the antithesis of that. Not as close as Geno or Isaac, but still. Even the echoes, like Chrom and Dark Samus, don't really have recency on their side as much as popularity.

So idk. I think he's saying two conflicting things here.

 

[Baddies are back]

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

However, more incredulous than the heroes vs. villains thing, imo, is the fact that loz keeps saying newcomers will be based on upcoming promotional opportunities, when that seems to be the opposite of what's going on. Skull Kid and K. Rool are close to the antithesis of that. Not as close as Geno or Isaac, but still. Even the echoes, like Chrom and Dark Samus, don't really have recency on their side as much as popularity.

So idk. I think he's saying two conflicting things here.

See, that's why I don't trust Loz.

 

[Istry555]

Clones who use a sword:

Clones who don't use a sword (+Ganon):

Well, it depends on how you interpret that. 5 of 14 clones using swords is still ~36% of the clones using swords.

However, if you also sort the other clones by weapon, let's say 1 whip (Richter), 1 bow, (D Pit), 1 psi (Lucas), 2 tech (D Samus, Falco?), 4 body/punches (Daisy Ganondorf, D Mario, Pichu?) etc..
Swords still make up the greatest percentage weapon group of the weapons used by the clones.

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

Not necessarily, if it's the cinematic scripts or story boards he's read (which sometimes it seems like that's the case, though others it seems like he's seen the actual cinematic) or just an early build/demo then the splash's may not be in them yet. That seems like the type of thing added at the end.

IDK, I agree a lot of his stuff seems contradictory but he's also gotten a lot right so far. So, who knows what to believe at this point.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Isaac's hair is yellow.

Isaac confirmed.

We did it guys :D

Just splatter some blue in that office, or some red. Idk something.

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

However, more incredulous than the heroes vs. villains thing, imo, is the fact that loz keeps saying newcomers will be based on upcoming promotional opportunities, when that seems to be the opposite of what's going on. Skull Kid and K. Rool are close to the antithesis of that. Not as close as Geno or Isaac, but still. Even the echoes, like Chrom and Dark Samus, don't really have recency on their side as much as popularity.

So idk. I think he's saying two conflicting things here.

Alot of these characters don't feel like they were made to advertise. Heck, we don't even know what Metroid Prime 4 is about.

These just feel like they were taken from the poll. Nothing else.

 

[KMDP]

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

However, more incredulous than the heroes vs. villains thing, imo, is the fact that loz keeps saying newcomers will be based on upcoming promotional opportunities, when that seems to be the opposite of what's going on. Skull Kid and K. Rool are close to the antithesis of that. Not as close as Geno or Isaac, but still. Even the echoes, like Chrom and Dark Samus, don't really have recency on their side as much as popularity.

So idk. I think he's saying two conflicting things here.

If they were bringing Skull Kid into Smash as a promotional thing they would have done it in 2015.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Not necessarily, if it's the cinematic scripts or story boards he's read (which sometimes it seems like that's the case, though others it seems like he's seen the actual cinematic) or just an early build/demo then the splash's may not be in them yet. That seems like the type of thing added at the end.

IDK, I agree a lot of his stuff seems contradictory but he's also gotten a lot right so far. So, who knows what to believe at this point.

He's been getting less right over time, though. Someone in here even made a video about it several pages back.


Despite knowing about K. Rool's cinematic opening he had no idea for sure that K. Rool was actually in. He thought the rivals concept actually meant a big Heroes vs. Villains theme, which it didn't. It was literally just for K. Rool's trailer.

And on top of that I'm pretty sure k rool's trailer is titled "rivals". His trailer specifically is titled that, so it has nothing to do with the other fighters revealed

To be more specific its called "The Rivals", but yeah. The gist of it is, K. Rool was the last big rival/villain to be revealed so they showed off all the prior ones.

Pretty strange considering if he's seen the whole cinematic (even if it was just the CG and no gameplay) he'd know if Skull Kid was playable based on the splash screen or lack thereof.

Based on what he knew about K. Rool's cinematic, he didn't see the whole cinematic. In fact I think it was only just a text synopsis and he didn't know more than that.

However, more incredulous than the heroes vs. villains thing, imo, is the fact that loz keeps saying newcomers will be based on upcoming promotional opportunities, when that seems to be the opposite of what's going on. Skull Kid and K. Rool are close to the antithesis of that. Not as close as Geno or Isaac, but still. Even the echoes, like Chrom and Dark Samus, don't really have recency on their side as much as popularity.

So idk. I think he's saying two conflicting things here.
This makes no sense as well. None of the character reveals fit "relevancy" except Inklings, and even then they've got both relevancy and popularity. And yes, the same goes for the Echo Fighters as well.


Simon/Richter sure don't go with that idea as well. We haven't even seen the supposed collection or new game that's supposed to be coming for Castlevania. Hell, the collection could've easily been planned because they knew about Simon coming to Smash so they wanted something to tie it in, and Sakurai just wanted to make sure Simon got revealed first.

 

[Istry555]

Though, it should also be pointed out lolz18, even if his info is legit, doesn't know or claim to know everything. For example, he said he knew about Simon but no Richter. How would that be the case? Well, the Richter reveal was actually a second or second part to the cinematic. They showed the Simon/Leugi one, gameplay, then the Richter one. Different people could have worked on different parts, maybe he only saw the script for the Simon part, maybe the Richter stuff was added later and he only saw an early script? IDK.

The point I'm trying to make, though, is that even if he hasn't seen anything about Isaac, that doesn't mean much because it could simply be part of the stuff he didn't see/work on like Richter.

I still hold out hope for Isaac in some form

 

[KMDP]

Despite knowing about K. Rool's cinematic opening he had no idea for sure that K. Rool was actually in. He thought the rivals concept actually meant a big Heroes vs. Villains theme, which it didn't. It was literally just for K. Rool's trailer.

I've watched a lot of Smash Direct reactions. Quite a few saw the opening of K. Rool's trailer with the Heroes v. Villains graphic and said "Story Mode!?" before seeing Donkey Kong yawning and realising it's actually K. Rool's trailer.

If loz18's source had only seen the paintings from the start of the trailer, it's not impossible they'd think "Heroes v. Villains theme".

 

[N3ON]

Not necessarily, if it's the cinematic scripts or story boards he's read (which sometimes it seems like that's the case, though others it seems like he's seen the actual cinematic) or just an early build/demo then the splash's may not be in them yet. That seems like the type of thing added at the end.

IDK, I agree a lot of his stuff seems contradictory but he's also gotten a lot right so far. So, who knows what to believe at this point.

I suppose, though if that were the case you'd think he'd be able to identify another pivotal newcomer featured in the trailer. I mean if Skull Kid were hypothetically a boss, what would the point of that trailer be should it not feature any newcomers? To promote a single boss?

The only thing that makes sense to me is if he didn't see the entire trailer, whether that's the trailer itself, a storyboard, or just a synopsis. Though this all still conflicts with his other claims. We'll see I guess...

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Just splatter some blue in that office, or some red. Idk something.


Alot of these characters don't feel like they were made to advertise. Heck, we don't even know what Metroid Prime 4 is about.

These just feel like they were taken from the poll. Nothing else.

I mean we already got word from Sakurai himself that Ridley, Chrom and Dark Samus were highly requested. I don't think Sakurai needs to specifically mention the ballot to tell us he cares about what it says. He's already telling us that the characters he's putting in have been requested by fans. That tells me that Smash Ultimate is the Smash for the fans.

Maybe it means they're planning to push for more games including these characters in the future? The ballot will likely not only function as an indication of what characters should debut in Smash, but also as a guide to what characters people want to see more of in general.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I suppose, though if that were the case you'd think he'd be able to identify another pivotal newcomer featured in the trailer. I mean if Skull Kid were hypothetically a boss, what would the point of that trailer be should it not feature any newcomers? To promote a single boss?

The only thing that makes sense to me is if he didn't see the entire trailer, whether that's the trailer itself, a storyboard, or just a synopsis. Though this all still conflicts with his other claims. We'll see I guess...

A lot of these leakers i can't fully trust.

They have a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong.

 

[Pwnapplez]

Did Loz know about the Belmonts?

Via is twitter
"I wish I could say how I knew the E3 info and August Direct. That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything. We just know stuff here and there and we piece them together and what we have strongly implied to Skull Kid being playable BUT we haven’t seen him fight!"

He uses we a lot.

Judging from this
https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1029522756684197889

Treehouse member?
"That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything."

Or is he working as just Nintendo staff.

Word of mouth leaks I am going to assume.

"We just know stuff here and there and we piece them together"
Who knows the truth.

Right now, don't get hooked on leakers words. If someone knew the full roaster we would of seen it already

 

[JaidynReiman]

Did Loz know about the Belmonts?

Nobody knew about Richter.


Loz didn't know about Simon either. He never mentioned anything that even hinted at Simon. He also didn't know about Ridley at E3 or any Echo Fighter either for that matter.

Did Loz know about the Belmonts?

Via is twitter
"I wish I could say how I knew the E3 info and August Direct. That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything. We just know stuff here and there and we piece them together and what we have strongly implied to Skull Kid being playable BUT we haven’t seen him fight!"

He uses we a lot.

Judging from this
https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1029522756684197889

Treehouse member?
"That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything."

Or is he working as just Nintendo staff.

I doubt Loz himself is a Nintendo employee. I think he has a friend who is that relayed him information.

 

[Pwnapplez]

Nobody knew about Richter.


Loz didn't know about Simon either. He never mentioned anything that even hinted at Simon. He also didn't know about Ridley at E3 or any Echo Fighter either for that matter.

That is where things don't add up.

If anyone knew anything about Simon they should have known about Richter, they go hand and hand!

 

[shinhed-echi]

It's almost like people can change their minds or something. (I'm agreeing with you.)

You know what I thought just two weeks ago?

Shadow the Hedgehog can't be Sonic's Echo because they have to be 1:1 and can't have any different moves.

... But that's exactly how he is in most games. Especially Sonic Adventure 2 (The one that will have the most impact in his inclusion) and Forces, where people complained he was just a skin to Sonic.

 

[KMDP]

... But that's exactly how he is in most games. Especially Sonic Adventure 2 (The one that will have the most impact in his inclusion) and Forces, where people complained he was just a skin to Sonic.

My argument was that certain moves Sonic uses don't fit Shadow from a personality standpoint (and also his recovery should be a Warp).

Since he can have the unfitting moves I had issue with changed, there's no problem anymore.

Regardless, I don't want to argue about it anymore, because I actually want Echo!Shadow now.

 

[James Tutumbero]

I have no problem with Shadow being an echo of Sonic. The only thing they can change is the recovery move for some Chaos Control. Also, I hope that they give him a different forward aerial and Final Smash, I want to see Chaos Blast.

 

[KMDP]

I have no problem with Shadow being an echo of Sonic. The only thing they can change is the recovery move for some Chaos Control. Also, I hope that they give him a different forward aerial and Final Smash, I want to see Chaos Blast.

I think Shadow's Final Smash should be the same as Sonic's, until the last part where he uses Chaos Blast as he's returning to normal for that little extra damage.

Regardless, Shadow discussions are off-topic.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Did Loz know about the Belmonts?

Via is twitter
"I wish I could say how I knew the E3 info and August Direct. That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything. We just know stuff here and there and we piece them together and what we have strongly implied to Skull Kid being playable BUT we haven’t seen him fight!"

He uses we a lot.

Judging from this
https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1029522756684197889

Treehouse member?
"That way you’ll understand that I can’t possibly know everything."

Or is he working as just Nintendo staff.

Word of mouth leaks I am going to assume.

"We just know stuff here and there and we piece them together"
Who knows the truth.

Right now, don't get hooked on leakers words. If someone knew the full roaster we would of seen it already

That's my biggest problem with Loz. How should we trust his word about Skull Kid being a thing, if he didn't know about SIMON being apart of smash.

The biggest reveal of the direct? and K Rool?

It's almost as if he has someone who has a close grasp on the build that he has going on right now, but doesn't have a close eye on the ACTUAL production going on. Like a Nintendo Of America Employee is perhaps giving him this information. But you can definitely tell from the info that this isn't a high level employee. Probably low on the chain.

And even then, his august predictions didn't do so hot.

 

[RumpletrellskiN]

The craziest thing is all the little clues that have been scattered. Sakurai said we should have expected d. Samus and chrom(highly requested) . That's why I think the hints he gives us hold some weight but he is also very good and covering his tracks. But we know that he is using the poll because he says highly requested. I feel like he's telling us "you should know who's in" ,which I think is good for us.

 

[ThatShadowLink]

Man you guys post so much I can barely keep up. Last I heard Loz18 was only aware of stuff about the E3 presentation and not really the actual game production? Did something else happen with him? I assumed he's just speculating like the rest of us now.

 

[JaidynReiman]

That's my biggest problem with Loz. How should we trust his word about Skull Kid being a thing, if he didn't know about SIMON being apart of smash.

The biggest reveal of the direct? and K Rool?

It's almost as if he has someone who has a close grasp on the build that he has going on right now, but doesn't have a close eye on the ACTUAL production going on. Like a Nintendo Of America Employee is perhaps giving him this information.

And even then, his august predictions didn't do so hot.

Yeah. They obscured a mode which could be the primary way of unlocking characters, but we don't know that. His other things were like "they'll show 3 game modes" (didn't think show more than that?) and I don't recall what the other points were.


Not even Veggieburger (Vergeben lol) knew about Richter.

The craziest thing is all the little clues that have been scattered. Sakurai said we should have expected d. Samus and chrom(highly requested) . That's why I think the hints he gives us hold some weight but he is also very good and covering his tracks. But we know that he is using the poll because he says highly requested. I feel like he's telling us "you should know who's in" ,which I think is good for us.

The only hints at Chrom were the fact that Ike's Chrom recolor was gone and they hadn't shown Robin's FS yet.

The only hints at Dark Samus were that Samus' Dark Samus recolor was gone and Dark Samus hadn't been seen as an AT yet, but Ashley was still an AT and just casually shown off.

My argument was that certain moves Sonic uses don't fit Shadow from a personality standpoint (and also his recovery should be a Warp).

Since he can have the unfitting moves I had issue with changed, there's no problem anymore.

Regardless, I don't want to argue about it anymore, because I actually want Echo!Shadow now.

Chrom has a different recovery completely from Roy. Shadow can easily be identical to Sonic with a different recovery (Chaos Control, based on either Mewtwo or Zelda).

 

[SonicLink125]

This guy is on the top page for his idea of Isaac's special moves. Never thought of Grand Gaia as his FS. Pretty neat though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/97t5v4/due_to_the_hype_surrounding_isaac_right_now_i/

*edit: spelling

 

[Pwnapplez]

Man you guys post so much I can barely keep up. Last I heard Loz18 was only aware of stuff about the E3 presentation and not really the actual game production? Did something else happen with him? I assumed he's just speculating like the rest of us now.

He says he knows about Skull Kid, HOWEVER, nothing was shown off about him in E3 and zero hints.

Loz is going from Skull kid is playable to now it's an 80% chance

Development for the game is super close to being done.

You should have a 100% answer

 

[RumpletrellskiN]

I

Yeah. They obscured a mode which could be the primary way of unlocking characters, but we don't know that. His other things were like "they'll show 3 game modes" (didn't think show more than that?) and I don't recall what the other points were.


Not even Veggieburger (Vergeben lol) knew about Richter.




The only hints at Chrom were the fact that Ike's Chrom recolor was gone and they hadn't shown Robin's FS yet.

The only hints at Dark Samus were that Samus' Dark Samus recolor was gone and Dark Samus hadn't been seen as an AT yet, but Ashley was still an AT and just casually shown off.



Chrom has a different recovery completely from Roy. Shadow can easily be identical to Sonic with a different recovery (Chaos Control, based on either Mewtwo or Zelda).

Didn't mean hints towards samus and chrom but he said basically did you expect then? As they were highly requested. I think we get plenty of hints though that cant be put together until after a reveal which is how it should be

 

[Pwnapplez]

This guy is on the top page for his idea of Isaac's special moves. Never thought of Grand Gaia as his FS. Pretty neat though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/97t5v4/due_to_the_hype_surrounding_isaac_right_now_i/

*edit: spelling

Grand Gaia does work!
Never thought quake can be used like that!

 

[KMDP]

Chrom has a different recovery completely from Roy. Shadow can easily be identical to Sonic with a different recovery (Chaos Control, based on either Mewtwo or Zelda).

That's what I was saying. Before Chrom we didn't know if Echoes could have different moves.

Now that we know that they can, there's no problem.

 

[CheckmateChuck]

When you literally have more than 5 amazing options for final smashes, you know you're dealing with an incredible moveset potential. I'd assume if at all, it presumably comes down to either Megiddo or Judgement though, maybe a potential Felix/Matthew Echo could have the other one if Isaac has either?

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Man you guys post so much I can barely keep up. Last I heard Loz18 was only aware of stuff about the E3 presentation and not really the actual game production? Did something else happen with him? I assumed he's just speculating like the rest of us now.

Here's my speculative conclusion on what happaned.

Loz had a friend, who was a low level worker at Nintendo of America, and he managed to get access to this demo before E3 began. Then, after the demo, some higher leveled worker started drip feeding false information, so they could weed out the leakers quickly. That is a very common practice in businesses. As it tests trust with it's workers.

 

[Bassoonist]

Nobody knew about Richter.


Loz didn't know about Simon either. He never mentioned anything that even hinted at Simon. He also didn't know about Ridley at E3 or any Echo Fighter either for that matter.

So what did he get right that's making us pay attention to him? That's pretty much every character confirmed aside from K Rool, and I thought no one had leaked him either.

 

[N3ON]

Here's my speculative conclusion on what happaned.

Loz had a friend, who was a low level worker at Nintendo of America, and he managed to get access to this demo before E3 began. Then, after the demo, some higher leveled worker started drip feeding false information, so they could weed out the leakers quickly. That is a very common practice in businesses. As it tests trust with it's workers.

If they were drip feeding them false information, they shouldn't have told them about K. Rool.

So what did he get right that's making us pay attention to him? That's pretty much every character confirmed aside from K Rool, and I thought no one had leaked him either.

He got a lot of E3 stuff right (the fact that every character was coming back, character moveset specifics, etc), a Direct in August, and K. Rool. I think he did know about Ridley? But I might be misremembering on that one.

 

[StormC]

loz never outright said that K. Rool was in, right? He just speculated based on the info he had.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

So what did he get right that's making us pay attention to him? That's pretty much every character confirmed aside from K Rool, and I thought no one had leaked him either.

The only one that got both K Rool, Simon, and Chrom as a Ro echo, was that neogaf leak that happened a month before the august direct.

Keep in mind, that leak had Isaac, Ken, and Soren as listed characters, while the rest were X's.

If they were drip feeding them false information, they shouldn't have told them about K. Rool.

That was just him speculating, as he wasn't sure either.

 

[KMDP]

I mean...considering that Smash 4 removed all the Golden Sun representation that was in Brawl, maybe Nintendo is trying to retcon Golden Sun from existance due to Dark Dawn being...well...really bad.

Retaining two songs is "removing all representation"? Coulda fooled me.

When you literally have more than 5 amazing options for final smashes, you know you're dealing with an incredible moveset potential. I'd assume if at all, it presumably comes down to either Megiddo or Judgement though, maybe a potential Felix/Matthew Echo could have the other one if Isaac has either?

Potential Final Smashes

• Ragnarok
• Odyssey
• Gaia Blade: Titan Blade
• Sol Blade: Megiddo
• Grand Gaia
• Judgment
• Catastrophe
• Eclipse
• Crystallux
• Iris

This is how I see it.

 

[N3ON]

loz never outright said that K. Rool was in, right? He just speculated based on the info he had.

Beforehand he didn't. After the reveal he shared a PM from June in which I believe he said K. Rool would be playable.

 

[StormC]

Beforehand he didn't. After the reveal he shared a PM from June in which I believe he said K. Rool would be playable.

Interesting, that certainly adds a wrinkle to things. I am personally glad there was no solid leak with K. Rool out in the wild, I was very happy to have his reveal completely unspoiled. I sorta wish I got the same opportunity with Ridley.