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Starting roster already revealed (SamuraiPanda's Conspiracy Theoracy) [Final Update]

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Drake3

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an easy remedy to the "pick zelda cause peach dont unlock nothin" is to have picking peach branch off into a storyline with characters you can only unlock if you pick her and not zelda
I thought about that too, but what's the point in having it be Zelda vs Peach? And that solution still doesn't make the "one is unlockable and one isn't" theory make sense to me.
 

aruby14

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[QUOTE/]Also, if this is the starting roster, then so what? Oh lordy if we actually have to unlock characters. :/ Might involve some effort and work, maybe a little discovery and forethought. :( I agree with Panda if this is true. Then yes, you will have to think "Oh, a choice in the SSE, better not choose the character I have in hopes to unlock this person!" ;/ And I don't really see a problem with this theory. It could be true, or it could be totally wrong.[/QUOTE]

its not unlocking them thats a problem its just the fact that it kinda kills the point of showing us all these cool characters and not having them immediately playible when i bought melee i had no idea who the hidden characters were so it made it more fun knowing some of the new unlockables now kinda sux
 

Boofer

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I must say, that even though I disagree with Samurai Panda, I do think it would be cool if we got alot of characters in SSE at rapid pace. However, notice that I said ALOT, as in we better not have any less than 35 characters total.

But as I said, I expect at least 3 more characters for starters, and I don't expect Sonic. Ice climbers, Kirby, Zelda have no reason to be secrets.
 

Metal B

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Ok i really dont read the complete Thread but here is my opinion

So there two points against your theory.
The first is the missing of Kirby. Mario, Kirby, Link and Pikachu are the main nintendo characters, they were the first characters in the first brawl movie AND Sakurai is the creator of Kirby. Why should he be unlockable?
Ok you say, the first match in the Subspace Emissary can unlock him, because you fighting him ... but .... there ist a video of the Subspace Emissary form the E-4-All and there you can see that the player can CHOOSE between Kirby and Mario! That means you could fight as Kirby against Mario. It would be really bad gamedesign to play with a character you cant practice with ... even its the first match!

Well and this brings me to my second point.
Gamedesign.
Unlockables in the would of gaming working like cookings. You did a good thing , you get a cookie. You did a really good thing, you get a rellay BIG cookie. And thats my point. When you give the player in the beginng of a game to much, they want even more in the end.
We see it right now in the Dojo Updates! We got good updates in the beginng and everybody was happy. Than we got slowly to the release and we got even better updates. Everbody was even more happier. Than there was the delay ... Nintendo went out of big cookies, but they gave us already the tasty big cookies and we want more, but we didn't get more. So everybody is disappointed.

Thats why you have to save your best goodies for the end ... and whats better then characters? Also where would be the surprise by fighting Kirby or King Dedede in the first match and event? The point of secrets and goodies are that there are secret or hard to reach.
Giving players an character in the first event and the first match of the story mode would be the easiest unlock of all time!.

Also i hope they dont forget about the tradition that the first character unlock have to be Jigglypuff =P
 

KaptKRool

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Hmm, not enough to convince me. Just because you can think up reasons for all the things you listed to happen (no kirby, sonic as a starter, etc) doesn't make them logical or any more correct than anybody else's guess.

And this is pretty much all this is, an uneducated guess. You know as little about this game as the rest of us. So why don't you go ahead and lock this, just like you did to everybody else's.

Oh wait, I forgot, according to yourself and your ego, you're better and your guesses are more likely than everybody elses. So don't worry, just lock everybody else's threads because they're wrong, and then post the same thing and claim to be more likely... just because.
 

Garuda

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"Possibility"? Of COURSE it's a possibility, but is it likely? I think anyone who doesn't request for a crapload of minor minions as playable characters would say no. And to be honest, ANYTHING is possible, but not always logical or likely.

Well gee, sorry, didn't know only you were allowed to state your idea. What's wrong with disagreeing with your theory? (which, IMO, should be a hypothesis under these circumstances)

And I swear I'm not trying to flame, please look at it other than that, but I have to agree that members here are too scared to disagree with a mod. And guys, it's not like they're ALWAYS right. They're typical human beings, but in charge of moderating (hence "mod") the behavior in these boards.
 

Masque

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So, to summarize the thread:

(I'm just teasing. ;) I don't agree with the theoracy, especially given the "online icons" picture, but I can't deny that it's still a possibility. Remember, bandwagon kiddies: possibility does not imply probability. Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's actual, let alone likely.)
 

VisetheStompy

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So if I understand correctly, the other threads about the roster were closed for lack of evidence and where basically just speculation threads.

You have said yourself that you may be wrong about some of your assumptions and the roster is subject to change. So in essence you are speculating.

So I have a few questions for ya.

Is this post common knowledge?

Im pretty sure everybody has made the assumption that the demo characters could be apart of the starting rosters and in fact that many of the other charachters on the Dojo site may also be possible starting roster characters. Its all possible and such obvious speculation probably explains why all the past threads got locked.

Have I searched to see if this topic exists on the board?
Well obviously yes you have since you acknowledged that they all got locked. So why make another topic on it? Why didn't you just post your thoughts in one of these threads instead of posting the same idea yet again with a few "counter points" that basically boils down to "Well Sakurai could be doing things differently" and "You can't prove me wrong because your assumptions are just opinions"

Lastly Am I posting a topic that allows for real discussion
All the other roster speculation with the demo screens got locked because the discussion went around in circles with many common phrases like "Well Brawl could be done differently", "You can't prove that till the game comes out" , "This is only speculatioN", "Thats just your opinion"

Where is the legitamate discussion? Alot of people have shown logical reasons why this "theory" is more or less another speculation thread and in my personal opinion are being dissmissed rather poorly.

In short
1) This thread is speculation with a couple new angles that don't really prove anything one way or another
2) This topic has been done before and those threads were locked.
3) The irony going on in this thread is off the charts
4) These are my assumptions, which are basically opinions with fancy words
 

PsychoIncarnate

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So if I understand correctly, the other threads about the roster were closed for lack of evidence and where basically just speculation threads.

You have said yourself that you may be wrong about some of your assumptions and the roster is subject to change. So in essence you are speculating.

So I have a few questions for ya.

Is this post common knowledge?

Im pretty sure everybody has made the assumption that the demo characters could be apart of the starting rosters and in fact that many of the other charachters on the Dojo site may also be possible starting roster characters. Its all possible and such obvious speculation probably explains why all the past threads got locked.

Have I searched to see if this topic exists on the board?
Well obviously yes you have since you acknowledged that they all got locked. So why make another topic on it? Why didn't you just post your thoughts in one of these threads instead of posting the same idea yet again with a few "counter points" that basically boils down to "Well Sakurai could be doing things differently" and "You can't prove me wrong because your assumptions are just opinions"

Lastly Am I posting a topic that allows for real discussion
All the other roster speculation with the demo screens got locked because the discussion went around in circles with many common phrases like "Well Brawl could be done differently", "You can't prove that till the game comes out" , "This is only speculatioN", "Thats just your opinion"

Where is the legitamate discussion? Alot of people have shown logical reasons why this "theory" is more or less another speculation thread and in my personal opinion are being dissmissed rather poorly.

In short
1) This thread is speculation with a couple new angles that don't really prove anything one way or another
2) This topic has been done before and those threads were locked.
3) The irony going on in this thread is off the charts
4) These are my assumptions, which are basically opinions with fancy words
Well, he's a mod...he can make a topic if he wants to...
 

Koskinator

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id have to disagree, the official box art for the game shows pokemon trainer. why would they show us an unlockable character?
 

Desruprot

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A Mod made this thread? That was not what I thought, when I first posted on this, although I am amazed a Super-Mod did not lock it... anyways... Like I said earlier we do not have the evidence nor the proof of whether this is going to happen, afterall, all questions will be answered in less then two months from now...
 

couldntmakeaname

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Having Sonic not as a starter is also good for the game because it will force people who want to play as him badly to complete the game.
 

Desruprot

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Although one thing I actually do think, is that the starters in the Demo, are in fact some of the starters in the real thing, that is something very possible and very probable because that is the way with most games...
 

Mr. M

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its not unlocking them thats a problem its just the fact that it kinda kills the point of showing us all these cool characters and not having them immediately playible when i bought melee i had no idea who the hidden characters were so it made it more fun knowing some of the new unlockables now kinda sux
Actually, now that I think about it, it'd be like playing a Street Fighter game with Ryu clearly on the cover, only to find out you have to unlock him. :laugh: Makes sense. Okay, that was stupid of me to say that.


Still, there's a chance this will happen. Never know till we get the game, non?


Oh and, Darkfur: :p This is an open thread, and as such, personal questions to one another can be discussed by others. Try to be as open minded, or just PM the OP next time. And my smilies shall prevail. :chuckle:

(also, your questions kinda weren't clear enough to be directed to the OP.)
 

Boofer

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SamuraiPanda said:
2.5a You can select Kirby in the first battle in the subspace emissary instead of fighting against him

As others have already pointed out, this game is not 64, nor is it Melee. This is 6 years after the originals were made. So why do you assume you have to battle against the person you're about to unlock? I could easily see you having to win this battle with either Mario or Kirby (who could go on to fight Petey?) to unlock Kirby. Can you imagine fighting against Pokemon Trainer? How could they twist the story to do that? I find it much more plausible that when you get to a certain part in the story, you see a cutscene with PT fighting, say, Bowser or something, and then you have to play WITH PT to beat Bowser. PT could be unlocked as soon as you play with him, or he could be unlocked when you beat that match.
Well, I'm assuming that you battle against the person you're about to unlock because of this:

Sakurai said:
And as the case has always been, I’ve made it so you can play the characters you unlock in battles
I admit, that this statement is a bit vague, but "as the case has always been" seems to point toward Sakurai, in fact, doing things like he did in the previous games. He doesn't necessarily specify that we won't be able to play AS those characters in the battles, but if we were able to play AS the characters, then it would not be "as the case has always been" because we weren't able to do so in previous games. Forgive me if that was unclear.


SamuraiPanda said:
2.5b Peach is on the starting roster, so why not Zelda?

This may be a bit tough for people to get, but it makes perfect sense to me. When you are going to battle Petey Piranah, do you know which princess you want to save? Do you even care? Frankly, I think most people (like myself) don't care which princess they save. It simply doesn't matter either way. But wait, what if you could unlock them? Well, it still wouldn't matter since you'll have to do both at some time or the other. But what if only ONE was unlockable? That is more than enough incentive for me to want that unlockable one. Badly. And honestly, I think it would be alot more fun if you actually cared which cage you opened.
I see what you're saying, but then again, what's the point of choosing if only one choice yeilds an unlockable? If anything, BOTH of the characters should be unlockables if this is the case. I have no incentive to pick Peach.
 

Darkurai

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Oh hey, wow. Look at this.

Sakurai said:
The problem is Sonic. What to do... I suppose if we’re going to all this trouble, perhaps we should make him playable.
Why would it be a problem? Obviously it has nothing to do with Sonic being rushed to be playable in the demo, since I don't remember any complaints about Sonic being glitchy or feeling unfinished. "All this trouble" likely refers to the demo being playable at E for All. So if Sonic is a starter, what could possibly be the problem with putting him there? This pretty much axes your whole theory.

Someone's probably going to say "that's one character though! The rest of the demo roster could be the starting roster!"
Well, no.
Kirby, Snake, Zelda, and Dedede all have legitimate reasons for not being in the demo that you need to think about.
Kirby's hats. That's a lot of programming to do, and probably wasn't finished at the time of E for All. You could end up swallowing Sonic and getting a Samus hat.
Snake is a third-party character along with Sonic and probably unlockable for that. Sonic is major hype for this game, and was the most-requested third-party character, which is an explanation for him being in the demo.
For Zelda, Sheik obviously. Sakurai seems to be making it a point not to reveal anything about Sheik's inclusion. He hasn't shown us Zelda's special moves or her Final Smash, both of which could easily include Sheik.
And Dedede wasn't revealed yet. One could bring up Norfair, but Norfair is a stage, and Dedede is a character. Completely different.

Those four characters have legitimate reasons for being left out. As for the other four, Sakurai specifically said that the roster would be limited; it is a demo after all. He's not going to give us the actual game (obviously minus all the other game modes).

Sorry if what I said has already been brought up. No way in hell am I going through 20 pages to see if anyone's posted this already.
 

Brawler1432

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And this is pretty much all this is, an uneducated guess. You know as little about this game as the rest of us. So why don't you go ahead and lock this, just like you did to everybody else's.

Oh wait, I forgot, according to yourself and your ego, you're better and your guesses are more likely than everybody else's. So don't worry, just lock everybody else's threads because they're wrong, and then post the same thing and claim to be more likely... just because.
(to KaptKRoo) I agree (to SamuraiPanda) No offense or anything but he is right, you closed so many threads on an idea, and then use it in a thread. Sure I would like to be a moderater if you get to do that. How would you like it if someone just started closing your threads (including this one). I'm just saying if you close so many threads about the starting roster, and you want to make one suddenly, you should punish yourself enough to not make it. And I noticed the reason u said u closed them, and correct me if I'm wrong but I thinks thats a pretty unfair reason to close a thread, because in my opinion YOU didn't convince me, so if i was a moderater then I might close this for the reason you closed every other one. Go ahead and respond with a good reason.
 

Erimir

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Also, if this is the starting roster, then so what?
Then so nothing. I don't actually care if this is the starting roster. It's fine. It's not my ideal, it's not what I would pick, but I wouldn't be upset if this was it. I wouldn't be that upset if the starting roster was Mario, Kirby, Peach and Zelda. Maybe a little just because I couldn't play a multiplayer match with any of my mains from Melee or 64 (cept Sheik, if she's in, I guess) from the get go. But I plan on having some alone time with my game real soon after getting it, so that wouldn't last too long.

So it wouldn't bother me. I just don't think Samurai Panda's reasoning is good at all. He has some reason to think that maybe it's the starting roster. He hasn't even given enough reason to make it probably the starting roster. He's still in the realm of unlikely.

I find the idea that all of the revealed characters minus Sonic and Snake are the starting characters to be much more convincing. That gives us an even 20 characters, which ups the amount from Melee, includes all the characters that are on the box art, is consistent with what Sakurai said about 3rd party characters, includes the most important veterans (i.e. the original 8), etc. But I'm not at all sure that that's it either.

I find the amount of uncertainty to be too great to be saying anything but "might" when speculating about the starting roster. It could be one of these things, or it could be something completely different. All the speculation is just that: speculation.

Hence SP's topic seeming a bit too... self-important. As if this is some important theory. Unless the only point of his theory was to say "Wait, don't assume just because it's the E4All roster that it couldn't be the starting roster!" In which case... ok. I still find it rather unlikely.
 

RhymesWithEmpty

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Your arguments are completely logical, but I'm still not really at all convinced. For one, I don't think the starting roster is something Sakurai would slip into an update just as a single screenshot. I know it wasn't your intention to imply this, but that severely undermines the importance of the update, and I'm sure Sakurai must know how generally upset the smash community is with the lack of character updates as of late. I highly doubt he'd let such a potentially huge update go to waste as a sidenote in a filler update...then again, that's all just my opinion.

Also, it's true that the Dojo may be largely utilized to get news out to casual smash fans, but I really doubt that it was the intention of a single screenshot to inform them of the entire starting roster. Rather, I don't think they were specifically directing that screenshot at any group of fans in particular, and it seems kind of silly to me to assume that they are. It seems far more likely that they used the demo screen because it was easy for them. They probably don't want to reveal the starting roster yet, so what are they gonna do? They've already got a demo all made up, it makes perfect sense that they'd just take a screenshot of that for their own convenience. True, they could have just not shown us a screenshot, but why not just use the demo version? I don't see how not having a screenshot at all logically trumps using a screenshot of the demo. The screenshot served purposes other than showing us a roster - it displayed the item and stage buttons, as well as the time limit for choosing a character that will likely only appear in online brawling. They might seem like insignificant additions now that we've already seen them, but had they not been shown, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people questioning how the voting/lottery system works. It seems obvious, yes, but a lot of people like to have these extra, affirming little details.

Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts on the matter. If a lot of it didn't make sense, that's 'cause I'm running on 3 hours of sleep :p
 

Professor X

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Wow, I thought the OP was a joke when I first read it. That's not logic... that's not even attempting to be logical, all the Zelda and Kirby junk. That the demo roster is the starting roster is a totally unsupported assumption.
 

sonic130

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I can tell you right now that this is not going to be the starting roster. These characters will most likely be on the starting roster, but I am betting that all the characters shown on the dojo will be on the starting roster. Because why would he show us unlockable characters when the game isn't even out yet? Then what's the point of them being unlockable? This is just my opinion, some of you may agree, and some of you may disagree.
 

RetsubtY

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Does anyone notice that Snake nor Zelda are choosable on the selection screen and yet, on the third screenshot they are there... fighting....

The Screenshots are unrelated, so maybe this theory is incorrect?
 

raul

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I personally do not agree with SP's theory, but regardless if he is right or wrong, does the starting roster mean that much to anyone? Even if we identify the starting roster from the characters we already know from the dojo updates, we still do not know:

1.) The number of starting characters regard less of how many characters we currently know
2.) Which of those characters will be locked characters or if any will be
3.) The total number of characters for the entire game

The starting roster is almost meaningless. Example, even if there are 15 starting characters, you still know 23 of them already, so you have nothing to look forward to when you have unlocked them because you already knew about them to begin with.

Heres an example: Pit is not in the starting roster. Big deal, you still know he'll be there regardless of of he starts or not.

What would be worth while is a full roster. Thats what we all really want. And just to through it out there, why wouldnt Kirby be a starting character? Yes Meta-Knight is bad ***, but Kirby has been a fan favorite ever since SSB64 and even after he got nerfed in Melee. To make Kirby unlockable at any point in the game would be a disappointment to a huge number of fans.

The Theory is interesting, but I'm just not buying it.
 

Fearthesmash

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The only Coutnerpoint I can think of is the fact that for both previous smash games, Sakurai did not reveal any of the unlockables until the game was actually released. The lack of Jiggly,Falcon or Luigi on the Dojo somewhat supports this. Whereas this roster contains substantially less than has been revealed, meaning they would be unlockable. However, trying to predict Sakurai through patterns from previous games is flimsy at the very best. Very good arguement Samurai.
 

Boofer

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I personally do not agree with SP's theory, but regardless if he is right or wrong, does the starting roster mean that much to anyone? Even if we identify the starting roster from the characters we already know from the dojo updates, we still do not know:

1.) The number of starting characters regard less of how many characters we currently know
2.) Which of those characters will be locked characters or if any will be
3.) The total number of characters for the entire game

The starting roster is almost meaningless. Example, even if there are 15 starting characters, you still know 23 of them already, so you have nothing to look forward to when you have unlocked them because you already knew about them to begin with.

Heres an example: Pit is not in the starting roster. Big deal, you still know he'll be there regardless of of he starts or not.

What would be worth while is a full roster. Thats what we all really want. And just to through it out there, why wouldnt Kirby be a starting character? Yes Meta-Knight is bad ***, but Kirby has been a fan favorite ever since SSB64 and even after he got nerfed in Melee. To make Kirby unlockable at any point in the game would be a disappointment to a huge number of fans.

The Theory is interesting, but I'm just not buying it.
My personal gripe with having such a small starting roster is that it seems to point at overall fewer characters than I expected. That is why I don't like it.

I don't see Sakurai going anywhere near 40 characters if we only got 15 starters. In the previous games, the amount of unlockables were less than the amount of starters. Now, I mean there is still a chance of him making slightly more secrets than starters, but I doubt it. Do you honestly se him giving us 25 secret characters if we only have 15 starters?

I know everybody is going to say "this is not melee, it is Brawl, so it could change" blahh blah blah. Yeah, it could change, but what can be supported? Obviously the one that says there will be less secrets than starters, or at the most, just as many secrets.
 

raul

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My personal gripe with having such a small starting roster is that it seems to point at overall fewer characters than I expected. That is why I don't like it.

I don't see Sakurai going anywhere near 40 characters if we only got 15 starters. In the previous games, the amount of unlockables were less than the amount of starters. Now, I mean there is still a chance of him making slightly more secrets than starters, but I doubt it. Do you honestly se him giving us 25 secret characters if we only have 15 starters?

I know everybody is going to say "this is not melee, it is Brawl, so it could change" blahh blah blah. Yeah, it could change, but what can be supported? Obviously the one that says there will be less secrets than starters, or at the most, just as many secrets.
Well I think you said it yourself. 15 starters and 15 unlockables would be fine with me. However, it does seem that since we already know 23 characters, 30 total seems awfully small, so I think that is why alot of people go with 35 or 40.
 

Desruprot

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That I can agree with, although overall, I prefer to remain slightly speculative of how many secrets there will be (when the game comes out I'll simply look, I do not care about spoilers I am getting the game in May), I also will say that to guess is fine, but we have no true evidence, this is like trying to find a mean of statistics we do not know the total amount of #s for...
 

Boofer

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Well I think you said it yourself. 15 starters and 15 unlockables would be fine with me. However, it does seem that since we already know 23 characters, 30 total seems awfully small, so I think that is why alot of people go with 35 or 40.
I will be incredibly disappointed if we have only 5 more total characters than Melee. Not only would that mean that we have been spoiled incredibly early, but also that we wouldn't even get many of the returning vets. So how many more newcomers would there be? About 4 or 5? BOOOO!!!!

The good thing is that I don't think it's very likely, which is why I think we'll have more than 15 starters.
 

raul

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I will be incredibly disappointed if we have only 5 more total characters than Melee. Not only would that mean that we have been spoiled incredibly early, but also that we wouldn't even get many of the returning vets. So how many more newcomers would there be? About 4 or 5? BOOOO!!!!

The good thing is that I don't think it's very likely, which is why I think we'll have more than 15 starters.
That why 40 characters seems more likely. Since we know so many characters it would be very hard to believe that 30 is the max. That would give us, as of right now, 7 new characters to look forward to that we don't know about. That doesn't even count the ones we already know about.

This is why the starting roster is useless. We need to know all or nothing.
 

Desruprot

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That is why I am waiting it to be out before I start theories, since now my update theory has been dashed since we have not had a character in months right now...
 

Barnacules

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If you have a counterpoint to the theoracy, then believe me when I say, it's already been posted. Yes, even that one. And that one. Every single possible counterpoint has been stated, so just chill out and move along until SP updates the first post, which will be a while.
 

Santini

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These are my only problems

1. The theory states that Sonic will be in the starting roster because he is super popular. Yet characters advertised on the box - PT, Wario, Kirby - are also really popular. And even despite their presence on the cover, they're going to be unlockable? I don't think so. Like Sonic, they have fans that will want to play them right away.

2. The theory doesn't address the extememly likely reason of Zelda's or Kirby's absence from the demo. I am of course talking about their special moves. And I don't think that it's just a coincidence that these two were absent.

3. I really don't see the point of rapidly unlocking characters. Yes, you'd play SSE right away, but why is that a big deal to Nintendo? Once you bought the game, what do they care what you want to play.
 

raul

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Feb 6, 2002
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The Darkness in all our Hearts
That is why I am waiting it to be out before I start theories, since now my update theory has been dashed since we have not had a character in months right now...
I'm waiting it out too...till the Japanese release date when they spill all the characters all on the internet. These theories and equations, formulas and updates, have done nothing more than create useless threads time and time again. Now, I understand we need something to talk about, but every theory was have has been erased.

Ever since Brawl's delay and the debut of Sonic, we have done nothing more than create such theories. I've got a theory for everyone:

Sakurai initially wanted to exposed alot of information on the Dojo website so that the thrill of the game would not be lost to internet bloggers and such who would tell everyone how to unlock the characters. However, something happen in the development of the game, possibly last minute "OK" on Sonic for the game combined with other issues and thus, resulted in an obvious delay of the release of the game AND now, Sakurai is not willing to post very crutical updates, like character and stages because he wants to keep the information he already has on lockdown since he let out alot of info as it is.

There are no patterns, formulas, conspiracies, equations, period. Sakurai knows that the average person will not read too much into the updates he has posted, like music or the controls of the game. Unless you are Youko, Samurai Panda, or otherwise, you really don't pay attention to that kind of stuff. Most people care about characters, stages, and the Assist Trophies. So if he posts as few of those possible for the above average people, like lets say, those who are on smashworld forums, or those who create fake blogs that character is confirmed and such, then he can avoid all the information being leaked until at least the Japanese release date. In fact, I believe his whole goal is to conceal as much information about the game until the Japanese release date.
 
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