mixa
Banned via Warnings
Hi everyone
This thread is about stages and everything related to them. (VS mode stages)
I will try to make this noob-friendly and good at the same time.
This isn't a wall of text, I made several videos and pictures to illustrate.
It's all hidden in the orange words~~~~
This is very far from done, and even the parts that are done could use peer reviewing.
The reason why I'm coming undone -- oh tricky idioms -- is because, mainly with the Stage Hazards, this could and should be a collective work, add bits here and there and together we'll rise.
And also this has been sitting here forever and I figure I'd just publish before I get BUSY.
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note: when not talking about data, I'm mostly referring to the 4 competitive stages (DL, PC, Congo, Hyrule), since it is in my interest to make this applicable, example-based, useful stuff. so drawing comparisons to Saffron isn't the best idea. when measuring cycles, I'm using approximate values.
Stages: General info and comparisons
Blastzones
A stage blastzone is the area where a character will lose a stock upon touching it.
There is a hacked Yoshi's Island stage that has one so close to the stage that you can see it without any camera tricks: click here.
As far as I know, there isn't something like this blastline display for the original Smash, so I did some manual testing:
Vertical blastzones (ceiling): I tested out the minimum % in which Fox's fresh upsmash can kill Pikachu from the ground: results.
So the stages share pretty much the same ceiling heights. In practical terms, the stage with the lowest ceiling would be the one that it is easiest for your character to set up a vertical finisher on, say, a platform.
Even though I supplied you with numbers, they reflect a clean kill, but we must also take into account a few elements that hinder that clean vertical kill. The most common example is the wall DI in Hyrule (arrows show where such DI happens), Wall DI ex. 1. Another example is the hovering bumper in Peach's Castle.
As for the floor blastzone, it is clear that DL < Congo < Hyrule. So some gimps with Dair (Falcon, Samus) might not work on Congo and definitely won't work on Hyrule. (For the sake of simplicity, I am ignoring the incoming edgeguard). Take this Falcon on Pika combo, this definitely wouldn't work on Congo because it barely works on DL, Pikachu was just about to get out of the hit stun before dying.
On a related note, when Kirby swallow-suicides with the opponent, it is sometimes escapable, and if your character has enough vertical recovery, you can survive, but not on Hyrule, because the distance between the edge and the floor blastzone is so damn huge.
Horizontal blastzones (sides): I tested out the minimum % in which Falcon's non-angled fresh fsmash can kill Yoshi (here's how I positioned myself for this): results.
So, Congo Jungle < Dream Land < Hyrule < ... < Final Destination
This test is neither great nor legit though, because:
Even though I positioned the characters with rolls, it might be off by a % or two.
The position is just arbitrary and unlike being hit by an upsmash from the ground, it's DIable.
Yoshi was hit from the edge and not center stage, and it's much easier to be hit from the edge at the smaller stages than at Hyrule, so in practical terms the sides of a larger stage are even wider.
So just like the ceiling, but worse, how easy it is to kill to the sides can't really be explained in numbers.
There are other factors that will complicate this even more, such as tornados, DI, walls, the ramps at PC which, depending on the relative position of the players and the ramps themselves, will most likely interrupt some finishers, etc.
Starting Slots
Here's a video showing all the starting slots of the official VS mode stages. And here are the pictures used in the video.
Mainly with 1P vs 3P on Dream Land and Peach's, and with adjacent port slots in Hyrule, changing your starting slot to one of those is like gambling, or a test of skill/mind-games, it adds that rush in the beginning of a match.
This is most noticeable when Pikachus counterpick PC (whoever gets the first Jab-grab, gets 20+%), or in Falcon dittos on DL -- really, any character being 3P vs a 1P Falcon isn't in a very good spot.
Ex. 1: Pika (1P) vs Pika (3P) on PC
Ex. 2: Another Pika ditto on PC.
Ex. 3: Falcon (1P) vs Falcon (3P) on Dream Land.
It's also interesting how the videos of Japanese tournament matches always have 2P vs 4P, and sometimes in online matches, where it's 1P vs 2P by default, you'll find they'll artificially make 2P vs 4P: (example).
Such port choices on Dream Land give the players the most neutral position to start a game.
Port Priority: 1P > 2P > 3P > 4P
Average Time Length
Someone calculated the time length of more than 400 console tournament matches: it's all in here.
Auto Ledge Cancels
Video on some of the sweetspots in various stages that can yield a ledge cancel without much skill: here.
How to counterpick a stage
^ Sounds interesting. Any ideas? Not related enough? moving on...
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Stage Hazards: Specific info
hazard, n (a)
1. A game at dice in which the chances are complicated by a number of arbitrary rules.
2. Chance, venture; a chance.
3. Risk of loss or harm; peril, jeopardy.
Stage Analysis
Peach's Castle: platform, bumper, flying ramps
Instead of a description of the movement of each hazard, it's easier to just watch how it moves:
All movement is synchronized.
ex.: If the bumper is on the left side of its trajectory, regardless if it's moving left or right, the platform is either going towards left, or is already there.
But you can't tell the position of the bumper by looking at the platform mid-match, since the bumper skips a platform cycle. Also, the competitive scene has seen little of Peach's Castle and wouldn't be able to make hardcore advanced decisions regarding the position of the ramps and "whether my Fsmash will go clean above/below the ramps".
It can be used to combo, or to be in the way of a finisher move and save the character who got hit.
Whenever a character receives an attack, he will receive invincibility frames (sparkle), and if a character is hit while in that invincible state, he will receive the damage of the new attack but retain the knockback of original attack, as it can be seen here (DK's Giant punch knockback is preserved even though Ness is later hit by the bumper). and here is the same situation but without the use of a stage element.
- Since they move, at one given time an attack might kill the opponent, at another, the same attack will have its knockback interrupted by the ramps.
- When a character in tumbling animation hits a ramp, it sparkles with intangibility even after the collision (as it can be seen here), making it harder for the opponent to connect his next attack -- sex kicks are advised.
The slanted surface of this stage allows for aerials to be quickly canceled, as this combo shows. (TAS version).
Congo Jungle: platforms, barrel
The platforms and the horizontal movement of the barrel are synchonized.
If the platforms are vertically aligned, the barrel is directly below them, but you where is it going to?
If the platforms are horizontally aligned, the barrel is heading towards center, but where is it?
Unlike Planet Zebes, where the lava cycle is long, in Congo the barrel cycle is too short for the music to be useful. That is not to say that there is no pattern between music and stage movement, but is there a relevant one like in Zebes when the music picks up at 54s, the lava will rise? Probably, otherwise, how else could Europe do this?
2. Spins once each 5.7s. A spin lasts 1.2s. It spins, though not alternately, both clockwise and counterclockwise.
3. A character, and only one character, can stay 3s inside the barrel before being thrown out automatically.
4. The following buttons trigger the barrel throw: A, B, R.
5. Miscellanea / Chasing the barrel throw
2.
Chasing the Barrel throw:
This thread is about stages and everything related to them. (VS mode stages)
I will try to make this noob-friendly and good at the same time.
This isn't a wall of text, I made several videos and pictures to illustrate.
It's all hidden in the orange words~~~~
This is very far from done, and even the parts that are done could use peer reviewing.
The reason why I'm coming undone -- oh tricky idioms -- is because, mainly with the Stage Hazards, this could and should be a collective work, add bits here and there and together we'll rise.
And also this has been sitting here forever and I figure I'd just publish before I get BUSY.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Table of contents
Stages: general
Blastzones
Starting slots
Average time length
Auto ledge cancels
How to counterpick a stage (idea)
Stages Hazards: specific
Peach's Castle
Congo Jungle
Saffron City (pretty much done)
Hyrule (only data)
DL (only data)
other stages (won't do)
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬note: when not talking about data, I'm mostly referring to the 4 competitive stages (DL, PC, Congo, Hyrule), since it is in my interest to make this applicable, example-based, useful stuff. so drawing comparisons to Saffron isn't the best idea. when measuring cycles, I'm using approximate values.
Stages: General info and comparisons
Blastzones
A stage blastzone is the area where a character will lose a stock upon touching it.
There is a hacked Yoshi's Island stage that has one so close to the stage that you can see it without any camera tricks: click here.
As far as I know, there isn't something like this blastline display for the original Smash, so I did some manual testing:
Vertical blastzones (ceiling): I tested out the minimum % in which Fox's fresh upsmash can kill Pikachu from the ground: results.
So the stages share pretty much the same ceiling heights. In practical terms, the stage with the lowest ceiling would be the one that it is easiest for your character to set up a vertical finisher on, say, a platform.
Even though I supplied you with numbers, they reflect a clean kill, but we must also take into account a few elements that hinder that clean vertical kill. The most common example is the wall DI in Hyrule (arrows show where such DI happens), Wall DI ex. 1. Another example is the hovering bumper in Peach's Castle.
As for the floor blastzone, it is clear that DL < Congo < Hyrule. So some gimps with Dair (Falcon, Samus) might not work on Congo and definitely won't work on Hyrule. (For the sake of simplicity, I am ignoring the incoming edgeguard). Take this Falcon on Pika combo, this definitely wouldn't work on Congo because it barely works on DL, Pikachu was just about to get out of the hit stun before dying.
On a related note, when Kirby swallow-suicides with the opponent, it is sometimes escapable, and if your character has enough vertical recovery, you can survive, but not on Hyrule, because the distance between the edge and the floor blastzone is so damn huge.
Horizontal blastzones (sides): I tested out the minimum % in which Falcon's non-angled fresh fsmash can kill Yoshi (here's how I positioned myself for this): results.
So, Congo Jungle < Dream Land < Hyrule < ... < Final Destination
This test is neither great nor legit though, because:
Even though I positioned the characters with rolls, it might be off by a % or two.
The position is just arbitrary and unlike being hit by an upsmash from the ground, it's DIable.
Yoshi was hit from the edge and not center stage, and it's much easier to be hit from the edge at the smaller stages than at Hyrule, so in practical terms the sides of a larger stage are even wider.
So just like the ceiling, but worse, how easy it is to kill to the sides can't really be explained in numbers.
There are other factors that will complicate this even more, such as tornados, DI, walls, the ramps at PC which, depending on the relative position of the players and the ramps themselves, will most likely interrupt some finishers, etc.
Starting Slots
Here's a video showing all the starting slots of the official VS mode stages. And here are the pictures used in the video.
Mainly with 1P vs 3P on Dream Land and Peach's, and with adjacent port slots in Hyrule, changing your starting slot to one of those is like gambling, or a test of skill/mind-games, it adds that rush in the beginning of a match.
This is most noticeable when Pikachus counterpick PC (whoever gets the first Jab-grab, gets 20+%), or in Falcon dittos on DL -- really, any character being 3P vs a 1P Falcon isn't in a very good spot.
Ex. 1: Pika (1P) vs Pika (3P) on PC
Ex. 2: Another Pika ditto on PC.
Ex. 3: Falcon (1P) vs Falcon (3P) on Dream Land.
It's also interesting how the videos of Japanese tournament matches always have 2P vs 4P, and sometimes in online matches, where it's 1P vs 2P by default, you'll find they'll artificially make 2P vs 4P: (example).
Such port choices on Dream Land give the players the most neutral position to start a game.
Port Priority: 1P > 2P > 3P > 4P
Average Time Length
Someone calculated the time length of more than 400 console tournament matches: it's all in here.
Auto Ledge Cancels
Video on some of the sweetspots in various stages that can yield a ledge cancel without much skill: here.
How to counterpick a stage
^ Sounds interesting. Any ideas? Not related enough? moving on...
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Stage Hazards: Specific info
hazard, n (a)
1. A game at dice in which the chances are complicated by a number of arbitrary rules.
2. Chance, venture; a chance.
3. Risk of loss or harm; peril, jeopardy.
Stage Analysis
Peach's Castle: platform, bumper, flying ramps
Instead of a description of the movement of each hazard, it's easier to just watch how it moves:
Cycle duration: 1:20
All movement is synchronized.
ex.: If the bumper is on the left side of its trajectory, regardless if it's moving left or right, the platform is either going towards left, or is already there.
But you can't tell the position of the bumper by looking at the platform mid-match, since the bumper skips a platform cycle. Also, the competitive scene has seen little of Peach's Castle and wouldn't be able to make hardcore advanced decisions regarding the position of the ramps and "whether my Fsmash will go clean above/below the ramps".
- Platform
- Bumper
It can be used to combo, or to be in the way of a finisher move and save the character who got hit.
Whenever a character receives an attack, he will receive invincibility frames (sparkle), and if a character is hit while in that invincible state, he will receive the damage of the new attack but retain the knockback of original attack, as it can be seen here (DK's Giant punch knockback is preserved even though Ness is later hit by the bumper). and here is the same situation but without the use of a stage element.
- Flying Ramps / wedges(?)
- Since they move, at one given time an attack might kill the opponent, at another, the same attack will have its knockback interrupted by the ramps.
- When a character in tumbling animation hits a ramp, it sparkles with intangibility even after the collision (as it can be seen here), making it harder for the opponent to connect his next attack -- sex kicks are advised.
The slanted surface of this stage allows for aerials to be quickly canceled, as this combo shows. (TAS version).
Congo Jungle: platforms, barrel
The platforms and the horizontal movement of the barrel are synchonized.
Stage Movement: Congo Jungle
Barrel-Platforms cycle duration: 0:08
However, in practical terms it's hard to make use of this sync knowledge. By just batting an eye at the platforms mid-match, you can't know where the barrel is and where it is going to:If the platforms are vertically aligned, the barrel is directly below them, but you where is it going to?
If the platforms are horizontally aligned, the barrel is heading towards center, but where is it?
Unlike Planet Zebes, where the lava cycle is long, in Congo the barrel cycle is too short for the music to be useful. That is not to say that there is no pattern between music and stage movement, but is there a relevant one like in Zebes when the music picks up at 54s, the lava will rise? Probably, otherwise, how else could Europe do this?
- Platforms
- Barrel: properties
2. Spins once each 5.7s. A spin lasts 1.2s. It spins, though not alternately, both clockwise and counterclockwise.
3. A character, and only one character, can stay 3s inside the barrel before being thrown out automatically.
4. The following buttons trigger the barrel throw: A, B, R.
5. Miscellanea / Chasing the barrel throw
- Barrel: usage (the numbers on the previous section are related to the ones in this section)
Imagine this is Donkey Kong Country, you gotta know those barrel trajectories so you don't miss the barrel.
Roughly 3 seconds is the time you have inside the barrel, here's how much you travel in those ~3s.
2.
Spins: when (each 5.7s) it'll spin, and to what side (probably 50-50, but not alternately,) they'll spin is, in a match, as good as random.
When you see the barrel, unless you see it finishing a spin, its past behavior is unknown. Therefore, by going inside it, anything could happen:
Ex. 1: Barrel starts the spin right after the character entered it. There's no adapting to this, there's no guarantee that waiting, instead of getting out immediatelly, is a good option. On the other hand, there is also the chance that the player decides to wait, and is granted with a clockwise spin, giving him the chance to be thrown diagonally towards the stage.
Ex. 2: Same as ex. 1. They way I got to: 1 spin/5.7s was using a match where none of the characters actually entered the barrel. Maybe there's a slight chance the the spins are more random than that?
Ex. wat: Falcon's DI was not suitable/Congo has a weird platform. Falcon entered the barrel, wasn't lucky enough and got jacked. Barrel spin is as good as random.
Ex. 4: To wait for a spin is risky, but when at high %s and against a competent Falcon (fast and with great aerial movement to chase down the barrel throw), it's a possibility. Never forgetting you have 3s to get out, and that we haven't enough reaction time to get the first diagonal angle of a spin. So in that case, the Pika would need a counterclockwise spin to try the diagonal throw.
3.The barrel hitbox isn't obvious. It's tricky if you're coming from below.
Ex. 1: Fox going right through it.
Barrel hog: stop the opponent from entering the barrel by doing it yourself. Mew2King messed that one up, make sure you don't.
4.The reason why I put the buttons that trigger the barrel throw is because the camera isn't perfect.
Ex. 1: a barrel might come out of nowhere, and you're pressing B to recover, and now you're dead.
Ex. 2: another case of unintended barrel entrance.
5.It's true that against competent players the barrel most likely won't do anything (in fact, they might style on you):
Ex. 1: Pikachu manages to kill a 48% Fox out of the barrel.
Counter-ex. 2: Fox was certainly dead from the gimp if there weren't a barrel to catch him.
We must also keep in mind that slow characters, mainly the ones with poor vertical speed, have a harder time killing the opponent who has been barrel thrown.
Chasing the Barrel throw:
Characters thrown vertically from the barrel will get out of hit stun a little bit after they reach the apex of their trajectory.
This apex is different for each character. But as you'll see, all of them are high, so the rule of thumb is to stay on the top platforms while you wait for the opponent to be thrown out of the barrel.
I've taken pictures of each apex. This is not TAS, but I've tried my best to get the first frame where the character will turn upsidedown.
From high to low:
1. Jigglypuff (142)
2. Samus (137)
3. Luigi (136)
4. Mario (132)
5. Kirby (126)
6. Pikachu (118)
7. Ness (116)
8. DK (113)
9. Yoshi (112)
10. Fox (105)
11. Link (102)
12. Falcon (100)
This stage is dark and you can barely see the characters, so if you wanna emulate a slideshow with the original size of the images, you can download all the pictures by clicking download album on the imgur page.
-- edit: As pointed out by Madao, Jiggly is higher, but the pictures still give you what you need to know in a match, which is how high approximately the characters go.
