Stagelist Discussion: Starters, Counters, Doubles

[Fortress]

Discuss stagelists that you use, are accustom to, or would like to experiment with. Be it the current APEX standard, or what you're using at your locals and weeklies. Feel free to pitch what you're using or would like to use, and why. I'll go ahead and start us off.

​

Total Doubles Stages: 7
Doubles-Only: Distant Planet, Castle, Dracula's Castle
Doubles Starters: Dreamland, Final Destination, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2
Doubles Counters: Distant Planet, Castle, Battlefield

Total Singles Stages: 9

Reasonings:

Tried to keep starters set up such that no two choices were too similar in layout or size. Two larger stages that suit different types of characters with different boundaries that help and hinder different character types. Two triangle formation stages with the same key differences as the larger ones in boundaries, benefiting varying character types. Lastly, one transforming stage with boundaries that aren't too extreme one way or the other, potentially benefiting any character type at any point in the match.

For counter picks, I felt that a very tight selection of stages with a wide array of differences would help to make more thoughtful picks and bans, and put a stronger influence on counterpicking and matchup dependency. A balanced stage in Stadium 2, a sizable arena in Lylat that benefits certain types of recoveries over others among other things, a close-quarters slugfest with Metal Cavern, and a similar style with Wario Ware with a heavy influence on platform play.

The way I figure it, having a smaller stage pool with more prominent differences between them will make for more interesting sets overall. Doubles has a similar focus, with a natural focus on larger stages.

So, what are you all used to? What would you experiment with if you wanted to? Do you feel the APEX standards are fine as is? Too many stages? Too little? Discuss here.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Socal's Stagelist:
(Same for singles and doubles)
11 stages - 2 bans
Starter Stages:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Dreamland 64
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville

Counterpicks:

• Lylat
• WarioWare
• Green Hill Zone
• Distant Planet
• Skyworld
• Fountain of Dreams

The main driving thought behind the stagelist was stage redundancy. You'll find that in our list theres no overabundance of any kind of stage. There's a few of every flavor; wide, cramped, walled, small, high-cielinged, etc. The CP/Ban system was put in place in smash so that players didn't just hard counter each-other back and forth, and with two bans, no character will ever be shafted by the list. This list has been very successful and accepted well around here. One of the more interesting things about our list is that some stages were left out because in the end, despite them not necessary being ban-worthy, they were unnecessary (such as YS) because other stages filled their roles MUCH more elegantly.

When it comes to the list you posted, there's a lot to say and I'm not sure where to start. It's missing GHZ for one. GHZ is a fantastic counterpick and is relevant to countless character match-ups. Also, having Hyrule Castle legal in any way is extremely unusual; I'm curious to hear your rationale on that one.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Socal's Stagelist:
(Same for singles and doubles)
11 stages - 2 bans
Starter Stages:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Dreamland 64
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Smashville

Counterpicks:

• Lylat
• WarioWare
• Green Hill Zone
• Distant Planet
• Skyworld
• Fountain of Dreams

The main driving thought behind the stagelist was stage redundancy. You'll find that in our list theres no overabundance of any kind of stage. There's a few of every flavor; wide, cramped, walled, small, high-cielinged, etc. The CP/Ban system was put in place in smash so that players didn't just hard counter each-other back and forth, and with two bans, no character will ever be shafted by the list. This list has been very successful and accepted well around here. One of the more interesting things about our list is that some stages were left out because in the end, despite them not necessary being ban-worthy, they were unnecessary (such as YS) because other stages filled their roles MUCH more elegantly.

When it comes to the list you posted, there's a lot to say and I'm not sure where to start. It's missing GHZ for one. GHZ is a fantastic counterpick and is relevant to countless character match-ups. Also, having Hyrule Castle legal in any way is extremely unusual; I'm curious to hear your rationale on that one.

I agree with the Hyrule Castle input. The stage has too much room for players to distance themselves from eachother. And the platforms just piss me off.

 

[Fortress]

GHZ isn't on my list because there are already stages with incredibly close blast lines and walls to aid with recovery. Simply trying something different without it. Castle is available on the list as a doubles-only stage, and is filling the role of the doubles 'wildcard' stage; something purely outside the norm.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'm of the mind that GHZ should be a starter instead of FoD in the semi-standard practice of having the bottom row for starters and the middle row for counterpicks. The blast zones are similar, so it's not hindering characters that benefit from the size of the blast zones on FoD. Overall, I just see GHZ as a more neutral stage than FoD.

 

[Fortress]

Somewhat of a controversial topic; custom stages. I'm talking of course beyond retextures of Battlefield, and along the lines of things like 75%-sized Kongo Jungle, or static Frigate Orpheon. Anybody else using any A-Grade custom stages that actually do add a competitive edge to the game?

 

[guedes the brawler]

Wasn't FoD banned in melee doubled because it was too small? considering Dreamland is smaller than in melee, i'd wager PM!FoD is even smaller...

 

[DrinkingFood]

FoD was banned in melee doubles because it had a shader effect that caused frame drops.
The size wasn't an issue anymore than it was on Yoshi's story
Also PM DL is the same size as melee DL

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm happy to see both selections of stages dropped PS1, but I'm wondering why Norfair or Metal Cavern didn't make it into either, especially Norfair for doubles. I'd be interested in hearing your reasons why you left those two out.

Somewhat of a controversial topic; custom stages. I'm talking of course beyond retextures of Battlefield, and along the lines of things like 75%-sized Kongo Jungle, or static Frigate Orpheon. Anybody else using any A-Grade custom stages that actually do add a competitive edge to the game?

As for your question about custom stages, I found these to be interesting choices:

Frigate Orpheon+ (2nd Transformation)
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=29283
Bowser's Castle
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=35953
Temple of Time
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=13608
Jungle HIjinx
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=36351

Frigate Orpheon+ and Jungle Hijinx seem like really good counterpick stages. Frigate Orpheon+ reminds me of a larger Metal Cavern with an even larger dip. Absolutely messes up standard combos and chain grabs and being center stage is absolutely essential. In my experience the platform can lead to easily extended juggles due to how close it is to the raised floor. Platform canceling is essential on this stage.

Jungle Hijinx kind of has the same thing going for it but because of the drop in the middle of the stage. Being on the right and the left side of the stage both have their strong points, but I've yet to figure out how to utilize this stage layout to the fullest. I feel it's kind of like a more tolerable Skyworld.

Bowser's Castle and Temple of Time are much simpler in their design. Both are pillar stages which I think we need more of in the first place (more wall jump/cling shenanigans). Temple of Time is like an even smaller FD with really close blast zones, not for the faint of heart. Bowser's Castle on the other hand has a similar design to Yohsi's Story and Battlefield but with slight lips at the edges and all three platforms are much closer together.

 

[shairn]

Why would we need more pillar stages when we have FoD, GHZ, WW and both Yoshis'?

That's like half the stage list rocking a wall straight down to the bottom of the stage. You can't even ban them all in CP.

 

[JCOnyx]

I don't personally consider FoD a "pillar" stage per se. Although we do have enough to were it's impossible to ban them all in CP, 1 or 2 more choices would be nice. I believe Norfair and Dracula's are already stages where wall jumps and clings are possible, and we are starting to see those stages being tested in competitive play. I just personally like pillar stages because of all the additional strategies that come into play with them.

 

[mimgrim]

Eh. What the hell. I'll post what I would like to see with legal stage lists;

Starters;

Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Dream Land
Yoshi's Island Brawl

Counters;

Everything else on page 1 that isn't Pokemon Stadium 1

Come at me. :L

 

[Terotrous]

Here are my thoughts. Singles only since I'm not familiar with the Doubles metagame

Starter stages: Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story
Not sure between starter / counterpick: Norfair, Dreamland, Skyworld
Counterpicks: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Green Hill, Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Distant Planet, Skyloft, Metal Cavern


Basically, the rationale here is that any stage considered a starter should be even for most of the cast. This is why Final Destination is not here, there's a lot of matchups where Final Destination gives one side a big edge, I definitely think it should be moved to counterpick. I also feel this way about Fountain of Dreams and even Dreamland to some extent.

As for other stage choices, I think Norfair and Metal Cavern are definitely viable, they really just got banned because they were on the top row. Metal Cavern is clearly a counterpick stage. I'm not as sure about Norfair, to me it seems pretty fair for most characters (and it provides something different for starters, which is nice), but it hasn't seen much competitive play so it'd need testing. I also think Skyworld could be considered reasonably neutral.

Also, Pokemon Stadium 1 is dead and buried, as it should be.

 

[Mera Mera]

Starter stages: Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story
Not sure between starter / counterpick: Norfair, Dreamland, Skyworld
Counterpicks: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Green Hill, Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Distant Planet, Skyloft, Metal Cavern

I like this list. The next tournament I host, I think I'll try this out with Norfair being the final Starter and a 1-2-2-1 striking order for first game.
It has slightly more stages during the counterpicks, but I think 3 bans is still fine for game 2 and 3.

I'll comment on here later if I find that Norfair or Metal Cavern have any competitive issues. I'm really not sure about Norfair being a starter, but it might work and I like the variety so we'll see.

 

[jtm94]

SINGLES:
I have been playing using the APEX set for a WHILE and I have a lot of thoughts/opinions on it.

I like the bottom being starters and you ban 2 2 1 1 1 until you get the stage.

A LOT of people hate Lylat, but I really like Lylat because it feels more like a counterpick than any other stage. If someone hates it they will probably SD out of spite for the ledges. While I like it I feel as though people will always ban stages they just don't like, not ones that are bad for them. So people generally ban Lylat ALWAYS, Skyloft and then 1 other stage of their choice. This of course doesn't always happen, but I have had it happen to me many times.

I really like Smashville but the blast zones seem a bit tight, light characters feel disadvantaged by it "sometimes"

Skyloft is a really weird stage. It messes with wavedashing. Has awkward platforms and feels kinda segregated from other areas in itself. As if it doesn't promote interaction.

I hate Norfair, remove the stage for something better.

Stages I WISH were legal:
I don't mind Metal Cavern too much and kinda miss playing on it. It just has a unique dynamic.

I hate Brawl Yoshi's, just my own opinion.

DOUBLES:
Dracula's is amazing.

Jungle is a bit too big still, if it were ever so smaller it would be perfect.

Hyrule Castle could be PERFECT without the tent.

Peach's Castle has a balanced version without the center that is super fun.

Distant Planet is great.

Skyloft is actually interesting for teams.

Poke stadiums are great.

I absolutely HATE most singles stages for doubles. It turns the game into an ugly mess. It requires a larger area and feels insanely cluttered on stages like Battlefield, FoD, Lylat, Yoshi's, any other single stage.

 

[shairn]

I like this list. The next tournament I host, I think I'll try this out with Norfair being the final Starter and a 1-2-2-1 striking order for first game.
It has slightly more stages during the counterpicks, but I think 3 bans is still fine for game 2 and 3.

I'll comment on here later if I find that Norfair or Metal Cavern have any competitive issues. I'm really not sure about Norfair being a starter, but it might work and I like the variety so we'll see.

1-2-2-1 is pretty terrible. In fact, any even numbered ban order is kinda terrible, since the person who lost at RPS chooses the stage.

 

[Phantasmagorical]

Starter: Battlefield, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, Fountain of Dreams, Green Hill Zone
Counterpick: Yoshi's Story, Final Destination, Dreamland, Skyworld, Lylat Cruise, Warioware

2 bans.

The main goal of this list is to streamline the stagelist, removing as many redundant stages as necessary to reach a target number of 11 stages. The biggest exception is the presence of both Yoshi's Story and Warioware, and I personally don't remember the rationale behind both, besides the fact that we wanted 11 total stages and the platform layout is different (Warioware has no top platform which is actually a pretty big difference). Skyloft is bad, Yoshi's Island is redundant and worse than everything it's similar to, everything on the top row except for Dracula's Castle is pretty bad for singles, but Drac's is basically Dreamland 2. GHZ is a starter because it's pretty similar to FD but not quite as overbearing in most matchups (i.e. flat and usually there's no platform to save you from chaingrabs/combos, but sometimes there is). Yoshi's Story, Final Destination, and Dreamland are counterpicks because nobody ever strikes to them in this game anyway--with the increased variety of characters in PM, they're too polarizing towards certain traits that are more common in this game to be starters.

 

[Mera Mera]

1-2-2-1 is pretty terrible. In fact, any even numbered ban order is kinda terrible, since the person who lost at RPS chooses the stage.

Hmm... well maybe 1-2-1-2? But I feel like having the first ban is a disadvantage, so it helps balance out if you pick the stage at the end.

Also I've always had it such that the person who wins RPS chooses who bans first.

I could add a stage to make it even and an odd number of strikes. How would you want to strikes if there were 6 neutrals?

 

[arcticfox8]

Singles
Starters: Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2, Final Destination, Smashville, Dreamland, Green Hill Zone
Counterpick: Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Warioware, Metal Cavern, Distant Planet

 

[Fortress]

I'm considering adding GHZ to my list and removing either Fountain or Yoshi's (since I have, you know, three triangle stages on mine). I'm thinking it's going to be Yoshi's, or at least moving it to a CP.

Currently running Bowser's Castle, Frigate Orpheon 2nd Transformation, and Castle Sky as counterpicks. They are replacing Rumble Falls, Yoshi's Story (Brawl), and Pokemon Stadium 1, respectively. I was also thinking of putting Jungle Hijinks in there, somewhere (which is currently taking the place of Skyworld).

It's not currently on my stagelist, but I'm running a rebalanced Hyrule Castle (SSB) over Skyloft.

[collapse=Preview of Castle]

[/collapse]

Hoping my list will eventually look like this:

STARTERS

• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Dreamland
• Fountain of Dreams
• Rebalanced Hyrule Castle
• Frigate Orpheon (2nd Transformation)
• Battlefield

COUNTERPICKS

• Final Destination
• Yoshi's Story (Brawl)
• Lylat Cruise
• Green Hill Zone
• Metal Cavern
• Wario Ware Inc

 

[arcticfox8]

I can dig that

 

[JCOnyx]

Alright, here is my first go at a semi competent first page.

Spoiler: Page 1 (First Draft)

Rules are as followed:

Singles:

Starters - Bottom row (Striking 2 2 1 1 1 until the last stage is left).
Counterpicks - Second row (Winner strikes 3 stages and the loser can't return to a stage they've won at previously unless agreed upon).
Banned Stages - Top row (Too large)

Doubles:

Starters - The mid 5 of top and bottom row (Striking 2 3 2 2 until the last stage is left).

• Yoshi's Island
• Distant Planet
• Norfair
• Dracula's Castle
• Skyworld
• Battlefield
• PS2
• FD
• Smashville
• Dreamland

Counterpicks - Add the last 2 on the top row and the mid 5 of the second row (Winning team strikes 5 stages and the loser can't return to a stage they've won at perviously unless agreed upon).

• Northern Fairy Island
• Hyrule Night
• Bowser's Castle
• Skyloft
• Lylat
• Frigate Orpheon+
  
• Jungle Hijinx

Banned Stages - GHZ, FoD, WW, Metal Cavern (Too small)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Imma try some of these ideas out. I don't really like the apex rules for 1v1
14 stages and 3 bans.. Bleh
Oh and quick question, is it me, or do most of the modded stages have about the same sized boundaries?

 

[JCOnyx]

A lot of the stages I've tried out use close to the same boundaries as their bases (Which most of the time is FD).

I have to agree with you on the 3 stage bans issue to be honest. I just haven't heard of a decent way to fix the problem, has any ever tried just going 2 2 1 1 1 throughout the whole set? Does that turn out okay or does it end up just being too much in the losers favor?

Also, Jungle Hijinx is quickly turning into one of my favorite custom stages ever. I'd recommend giving it a shot if you haven't yet Fortress. Hyrule Night on the other hand is feeling just a tad bit too large for my tastes. I might warm up to it after a bit of playing on it though.

 

[Fortress]

Also, Jungle Hijinx is quickly turning into one of my favorite custom stages ever. I'd recommend giving it a shot if you haven't yet Fortress. Hyrule Night on the other hand is feeling just a tad bit too large for my tastes. I might warm up to it after a bit of playing on it though.

I'm already using Jungle Hijinks. As for Castle Night, I feel that it's okay as a counterpick as one of the only larger stages. I'd go so far as to replace Dreamland 64 and its overbearingly-large boundaries with it. It's also a radical approach, but with fourteen available stages through APEX rules, I felt that a modified ban limit of five wasn't too extreme.

 

[Bryonato]

the Apex stagelist is absolute booty, lets be honest.

I really like what NZA does at Smashing Grounds with the rotating map pool, which I will definitely be using in my weeklies. I'm also open to having less starters than "just the bottom row" which is what I'm using right now.

LotF rotation 1:
3 bans
starters - bottom row
cps - Norfair, Distant Planet, Skyworld, Wario Ware, Lylat, GHZ

Something Oracle brought up that I thought was interesting was replacing FD with GHZ as a starter and I rather like the idea as I feel GHZ can be generally a more "neutral" stage than FD.

I think for my next map pool I would like something a little more refined but with increased variety in cps. Still thinking about it

 

[SmashBroski]

What do you all think of Project M: Spear Pillar?
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=35467

I feel as it plays like a mix of Smashville and PS2 and think it's a great stage to consider for competitive builds. I believe that Theytah has it in his competitive build as a counterpick in Singles and starter in Doubles.

Aside from much needed aesthetic fixes, I think this stage is great and I'm glad my favorite stage from Brawl got a competitive fix.

 

[Fortress]

What do you all think of Project M: Spear Pillar?
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=35467

I feel as it plays like a mix of Smashville and PS2 and think it's a great stage to consider for competitive builds. I believe that Theytah has it in his competitive build as a counterpick in Singles and starter in Doubles.

Aside from much needed aesthetic fixes, I think this stage is great and I'm glad my favorite stage from Brawl got a competitive fix.

I think that two Pokemon Stadium 2's is an inappropriate notion.

 

[NisforSmash]

Eh. What the hell. I'll post what I would like to see with legal stage lists;

Starters;

Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Dream Land
Yoshi's Island Brawl

Counters;

Everything else on page 1 that isn't Pokemon Stadium 1

Come at me. :L

I could get behind this with a few modifications. If everything else on page one is counter then ps1 and castle siege should be moved to page 2 and swapped with something else like an unchanging frigate orpheon and dk's 64 stage with the floor being solid from both the top and bottom (same for the custom rumble falls stage which isn't that great imo). Then make it so Halberd never lands and the base platform is consistent throughout. Also 5 bans instead of 3. That would be in my unpopular opinion perfect.

 

[mimgrim]

Don't get rid of Castle Siege. >__________<

Instead, get rid of the FD transformation it has, and thus the loading transformation, and just have the starting one. Perfect stage right there.

PS1 getting replaced with a none-changing Frigate is a awesome idea though.

 

[NisforSmash]

Don't get rid of Castle Siege. >__________<

Instead, get rid of the FD transformation it has, and thus the loading transformation, and just have the starting one. Perfect stage right there.

PS1 getting replaced with a none-changing Frigate is a awesome idea though.

It's a nice stage i will admit but removing the transformation is just making a relatively casual stage competitive which is why i suggested replacing it with an already potentially competitively viable stage (dk 64) and returning all of its transformations. Your idea works too but i just would hate to see a stage lose it's flavor in place of replacing it with an already fairly neutral bland stage that no one plays on for whatever reason. I already think neutering WarioWare was a bad idea but it is what it is and unless they find a replacement it will stay that way. RIP CasualWare

 

[mimgrim]

Kongo Jungle isn't good for singles though. :/

 

[NisforSmash]

Kongo Jungle isn't good for singles though. :/

Wait really?Why though?

 

[mimgrim]

Wait really?Why though?

Have you seen how high the platforms are on that stage?

It promotes camping, and time outs, like you wouldn't believe.

It's fine for doubles. But definitely not for singles.

 

[JCOnyx]

I could've sworn I just watched a video of a Peach vs DK match in Melee where Peach literally camped and stalled on the upper platforms the entire game. Was one of the worst melee matches I've ever seen, it was disgusting. That map is not made for 1v1, but it "can" work in doubles.

 

[NisforSmash]

I could've sworn I just watched a video of a Peach vs DK match in Melee where Peach literally camped and stalled on the upper platforms the entire game. Was one of the worst melee matches I've ever seen, it was disgusting. That map is not made for 1v1, but it "can" work in doubles.

So then just lower the plats and make it more horizontally based like ps2. Wouldn't that solve it?

 

[JCOnyx]

Yes, but that version of the stage doesn't exist yet, at least that I know of. I'd rather use Jungle HIjinx as a custom DK stage though anyway.

On another note, what do people think of water stages as counterpicks? I've always liked Pirate Ship (for competitive preferably Calm Pirate Ship) and now Northern Fairy Island and they're great counterpicks against gimp heavy characters. Although, it can be a double edge sword against characters with meteor and spike games. Might save your life and might set you up straight into a guaranteed kill. Water is also amazing in doubles if you play with a projectile partner like Samus for charged shot setups.

 

[NisforSmash]

Yes, but that version of the stage doesn't exist yet, at least that I know of. I'd rather use Jungle HIjinx as a custom DK stage though anyway.

There is a custom build floating around that has it included i think...I'll see if i can go fish it up.

EDIT: Ok so i found it on Brawlvault. I think it was originally M2k's (Mew2000's) but this guy modified it to be more competitively viable. @ JCOnyx @ mimgrim What do you think of this?