Stage policy and starter stages: my easy solution to stage rules

[thehard]

Still important.

 

[webbedspace]

Let's take a pessimistic outlook. Assume that every future tournament in the West uses Apex'15 bans, never accepts custom stages, and never unbans anything (which I think is extremely likely). Furthermore, let's hazard that Duck Hunt is banned because of, say, tree camping. That makes 8 legal stages (BF,FD,SV,TC,LC,DP, H,CS). It seems that in this scenario FLSS is more necessary than ever. But 1) the striking process necessitates that the stage list be reduced to 7, and 2) even then, it will strike 1-2-2-1, in favour of player two. Would both of these concerns together spell doom for the chances of FLSS being adopted?

 

[TheLostKokiri]

I'd actually love to see counterpicks disappear from the game. As the OP stated they seem rather redundant now. Can't we just find an agreed stage list and strike away? It seems like that would be a nice, simple way of doing things from now.

I still feel like some stages feel oddly left out/included. I'm going to a tournament that is allowing Duck Hunt, PS2, Wuhu and Windy Hill as counters, but I think if that's the case then Halberd and Wooly World should be viable options too. Plus they are including all Omega stages, which I will just lead to mostly Omega picks, giving some characters major advantages.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I'd actually love to see counterpicks disappear from the game. As the OP stated they seem rather redundant now. Can't we just find an agreed stage list and strike away? It seems like that would be a nice, simple way of doing things from now.

I still feel like some stages feel oddly left out/included. I'm going to a tournament that is allowing Duck Hunt, PS2, Wuhu and Windy Hill as counters, but I think if that's the case then Halberd and Wooly World should be viable options too. Plus they are including all Omega stages, which I will just lead to mostly Omega picks, giving some characters major advantages.

I know this is important, but you're going to a tourney that runs PS2 and Wuhu, but not Halberd? What. Even Apex, with it's piddly stage list decided to keep Halberd. How could they justify keeping those two but not Halberd? Don't get me wrong, I love all three, but PS2 and Wuhu get a lot of hate from people.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Babysteps, phoenix.
Just allowing those two is a huge thing. With time TOs will realize Halberd isn't a bad stage either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Babysteps, phoenix.
Just allowing those two is a huge thing. With time TOs will realize Halberd isn't a bad stage either.

Halberd was/is legal in Brawl so I'm not too worried about it in particular. Duck Hunt and Town & City seem pretty well accepted in general, not worried about them either. Wuhu and Skyloft are my main concerns at present.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Those two are about 50/50 in likeliness of being legal.

PS2, however....

 

[LiteralGrill]

Those two are about 50/50 in likeliness of being legal.

PS2, however....

Is even less likely? The general public cares even less for that stages.

Though fun news, Hypest hopes to transition to FLSS very soon

 

[Jehtt]

I still feel like some stages feel oddly left out/included. I'm going to a tournament that is allowing Duck Hunt, PS2, Wuhu and Windy Hill as counters, but I think if that's the case then Halberd and Wooly World should be viable options too. Plus they are including all Omega stages, which I will just lead to mostly Omega picks, giving some characters major advantages.

I played in a stage testing tournament with Windy hill legal. That stage was... erm, questionable. Windy Hill is way too big, it's just too easy to camp. Wooly World is also super campy.

 

[TheLostKokiri]

I actually remembered after posting that wooly world was a partly run off stage, so I can see why that isn't included. No way IMO should Windy Hill be legal though, just the springs really, they basically kill anybody if you hit the undersides, it's much more interfering than most other stages.​

 

[erico9001]

Yep, I totally agree with this.

The reason why the stage won't end up as Smashville is there are more opportunities to strike it. Each player has 6 strikes. As an example, you are the second striker and decide to strike FD and Lylat Cruise, your two bad stages. After that, you have 4 more opportunities to strike Smashville, and since your two bad stages are already striked, you have plenty of room to do so. Your opponent also has his chances in which he may also choose to strike Smashville.

Time is not an issue, as the op says. Striking stages consumes a much smaller percent of time than the actual game that is played. Against the total amount of time that goes into tournaments, it is not noticeable.

Anyways, yeah, this would improve the player experience, would make things more fair, and would be easier to explain.

All that needs to be done is spreading awareness. I'll see what I can do about that.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That was a bump for this topic, but I still agree with what I had to say in the op for the most part.

I will say that Windy Hill Zone is still IMO an acceptable stage but is also somewhat worse than I thought at first. It does enable certain kinds of run-away to some extent; I don't think it's really ban-worthy but it's certainly obnoxious enough to consider when you're looking to go from 14 stages to 13. I'd still run 13 if I ran a tournament today, but I'd have the excluded one from my list of 14 be Windy Hill Zone instead of Pokemon Stadium 2. To be clear, that means I'd run the following stage list:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island

All starters with full list striking, 2 stage bans per side to be used before game 2. Can anyone name any single match-up that will produce any unfair result with this ruleset?

 

[Asdioh]

AA I would go to your tournaments so hard. I really want this stage list/policy to be the standard, it would be perfect.


If Player 1 REALLY hated "jank" stages, they could strike something like: kongo, x, x, halberd, skyloft, x, x, PS2, castle siege, x, x, wuhu, for example. The x are the Player 2's strikes, and they would have included FD, BF, delfino, lylat, T&W, SV, duck hunt. Player 1's final strike, at it's "jankiest," would be between something like Delfino and Lylat. I just don't see this list ever having a true problem. Both players get plenty of chances to strike stages they really don't like for game 1.

 

[Piford]

That was a bump for this topic, but I still agree with what I had to say in the op for the most part.

I will say that Windy Hill Zone is still IMO an acceptable stage but is also somewhat worse than I thought at first. It does enable certain kinds of run-away to some extent; I don't think it's really ban-worthy but it's certainly obnoxious enough to consider when you're looking to go from 14 stages to 13. I'd still run 13 if I ran a tournament today, but I'd have the excluded one from my list of 14 be Windy Hill Zone instead of Pokemon Stadium 2. To be clear, that means I'd run the following stage list:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island

All starters with full list striking, 2 stage bans per side to be used before game 2. Can anyone name any single match-up that will produce any unfair result with this ruleset?

I'd go with 3 strikes. It make people that dislike certain stages a bit happier, and it wouldn't put the person counterpick at a disadvantage.

Now that's Apex prep is over I think this needs to be pushed a lot more, as it could really help the future of Smash 4.

 

[Smasher89]

I feel this is way more strategic thenn the current apexruleset.
Just played 2 tournaments with 3 starters atm but having smashville, fd and battlefield on is heavily in favor to chars that dont use platforms well compared to chars who do.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'd go with 3 strikes. It make people that dislike certain stages a bit happier, and it wouldn't put the person counterpick at a disadvantage.

Now that's Apex prep is over I think this needs to be pushed a lot more, as it could really help the future of Smash 4.

The main downside to 3 (or any odd number) is that you inevitably have an asymmetry of information situation. In theory you ban in a 1-2-1 order just like you strike stages in game 1, and there's no "fair" order possible for 3 total. Now this really isn't that big of a deal; whoever won game one can easily have the minor disadvantage for stage bans that is going first in 1-2-2-1 banning. Locally Lux runs 4 stage bans, and while I don't think it's awful, I do think it's just a bit much and crosses the line to taking too much time for too little of efficiency gains.

3 is not a bad idea overall and probably works pretty well, but I kinda like 2 as being quick, efficient, and procedurally fair. I don't think having to play on potentially your third worst stage as a counterpick is actually that bad; maybe I'm just old and remember 20 stage Brawl tournaments (where stage *really* mattered, way more than in Wii U) with 1 stage ban and think 2 bans out of 13 is generous in comparison. The only true "forced ban" I've seen so far that doesn't involve Little Mac is that Ganon must ban Duck Hunt so I think there's a lot of wiggle room in stages really to play on a variety of these stages and have results pretty closely linked in overall fairness. I'd have to get some data from seeing these various procedures in practice though to really be sure about all of it.

I do agree that rulesets that explore more of what's really in the game are likely to get more traction post-APEX. Before this weekend people were so stressed prepping for the national that had one particular ruleset that was what it was. Now though, those pressures are gone, no one knows what the next national's ruleset is going to be, and the community can put some more thought into what's actually best and not what's currently urgent.

 

[Piford]

I do agree that rulesets that explore more of what's really in the game are likely to get more traction post-APEX. Before this weekend people were so stressed prepping for the national that had one particular ruleset that was what it was. Now though, those pressures are gone, no one knows what the next national's ruleset is going to be, and the community can put some more thought into what's actually best and not what's currently urgent.

We just gotta push for this system to be at Evo.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We just gotta push for this system to be at Evo.

I tweeted the Evo guys and they said the ruleset is still being decided. Promptly sent another tweet saying I supported customs. (That was my soapbox at the time.)

What I'm trying to say is that they do read their Twitter feed, so that's one possible avenue of communication.

 

[Piford]

I tweeted the Evo guys and they said the ruleset is still being decided. Promptly sent another tweet saying I supported customs. (That was my soapbox at the time.)

What I'm trying to say is that they do read their Twitter feed, so that's one possible avenue of communication.

I've tweeted at them too, but go no reply. Granted I don't actually use my twitter account, so I only have 1 follower and all my tweets are about Smash 4 rulesets so they might ignore me. Hopefully they at least see the interest in stuff like more stages and custom moves.

 

[Linkshot]

So I've been tossing around a modified version of this that we're gonna put to the test in a few weeks: Categorized Striking.

Our legal list up here is looking to be Omegas, Battlefield, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island, Skyloft. Due to the large amount of nuances between Omega stages, we've been having a lot of discussions on how to handle them in terms of stage legality. What I proposed is this:

• All stages are grouped into 3 Categories: Flat-no-Plat, Flat-with-Plat, Transformation
• Flat-no-Plat
  • Omega Palutena's Temple: The Final Destination Clone
  • Omega Onett: The Kind Overhanging Walls
  • Omega Pilotwings: The Thin Floater
  • (You can counterpick to any Omega as long as Omega isn't banned by any players. Use the nuances and song lists to your advantage!)
• Flat-with-Plat
  • Battlefield
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Town & City
  • Smashville
  • Duck Hunt
• Transformation
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Skyloft
  • Halberd
  • Castle Siege
  • Wuhu Island
• Loser of RPS strikes a category, leaving two remaining.
• Winner of RPS strikes last category, leaving one remaining.
• Strike from the stages within that category in the fashion that lets the RPS winner get the last strike. (preferably 1 2 1 for the 5-piece categories)

As an aside, I've been looking into Kalos Pokémon League, and it seems mostly tame! The biggest issues are that the swords in Steel spawn very fast, Registeel covers a large area when it swings them, and all hazards are unblockable. Fire is the tamest (all hitboxes are practically on timers and forced static locations), Dragon is next (extremely telegraphed, only 3 locations it can pick), Water after (it's short and non-intrusive enough that Greninja can outrun it from center stage, and Manaphy even lets you do cool ground cancels by pulling you to the drain's ledge!), and Steel is last (manageable after the swords fall, apply Pictochat Safe Zone tech during transformations to avoid swords).

tl;dr Kalos is a stage I'm willing to give a try.

Why we picked Omega Palutena: Static background, perfect lighting, FD's geometry, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Onett: Static background, perfect lighting, can walljump off of walls, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Pilotwings: Great lighting, very plain texturing, textures/models match underside's shape.

 

[Piford]

So I've been tossing around a modified version of this that we're gonna put to the test in a few weeks: Categorized Striking.

Our legal list up here is looking to be Omegas, Battlefield, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island, Skyloft. Due to the large amount of nuances between Omega stages, we've been having a lot of discussions on how to handle them in terms of stage legality. What I proposed is this:

• All stages are grouped into 3 Categories: Flat-no-Plat, Flat-with-Plat, Transformation
• Flat-no-Plat
  • Omega Palutena's Temple: The Final Destination Clone
  • Omega Onett: The Kind Overhanging Walls
  • Omega Pilotwings: The Thin Floater
  • (You can counterpick to any Omega as long as Omega isn't banned by any players. Use the nuances and song lists to your advantage!)
• Flat-with-Plat
  • Battlefield
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Town & City
  • Smashville
  • Duck Hunt
• Transformation
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Skyloft
  • Halberd
  • Castle Siege
  • Wuhu Island
• Loser of RPS strikes a category, leaving two remaining.
• Winner of RPS strikes last category, leaving one remaining.
• Strike from the stages within that category in the fashion that lets the RPS winner get the last strike. (preferably 1 2 1 for the 5-piece categories)

As an aside, I've been looking into Kalos Pokémon League, and it seems mostly tame! The biggest issues are that the swords in Steel spawn very fast, Registeel covers a large area when it swings them, and all hazards are unblockable. Fire is the tamest (all hitboxes are practically on timers and forced static locations), Dragon is next (extremely telegraphed, only 3 locations it can pick), Water after (it's short and non-intrusive enough that Greninja can outrun it from center stage, and Manaphy even lets you do cool ground cancels by pulling you to the drain's ledge!), and Steel is last (manageable after the swords fall, apply Pictochat Safe Zone tech during transformations to avoid swords).

tl;dr Kalos is a stage I'm willing to give a try.

Why we picked Omega Palutena: Static background, perfect lighting, FD's geometry, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Onett: Static background, perfect lighting, can walljump off of walls, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Pilotwings: Great lighting, very plain texturing, textures/models match underside's shape.

I think the system is kinda flawed, as the stage I want most might be Wuhu Island, and the stage I want second most might be Final Destination. If the stages in the grouping were very similar (like in the FD group) it might work but the transforming and "Flat-with-Plat" groups are so varied that it really doesn't work. Also, the stage transforming isn't really a quality that benefits any character, so it's not like a transforming stage is one I look for when counterpicking (outside of my personal preference for them).

Also in your group of Omegas, I'd add at least 2 more kinds, as your missing Pillar ones like Gaur Plains, and wall ones that can't be jumped like Kalos. Also Town and City is much more of a transforming stage than Halberd is.

Also Kalos before Pokémon Stadium 2? What? I'm all for trying out Kalos, but there's defintely some stages that come to mind as being better than it, notably Pokémon Stadium 2.

 

[Linkshot]

I will shoot down Pokemon Stadium 2 any day of the week because Flying and somewhat Electric make combat near impossible to do for the entire duration of the transformation.

I feel like there are characters that benefit from transforming stages more than others, notably those with great maneuverability, upward kill options, and high Base Knockback moves (Fox, Jiggs, etc), which is probably what made me biased toward putting Halberd in Transformation instead of Plat.

I think having a Rude Overhang in Striking would be a bit jarring because the entire point of "Rude" is that it's very unintuitive. The wall is there and I should be able to jump off of it, but I can't. If you really want 5, I'd add PS2 Omega (Pillar is Kind unlike Gaur's) and Galaxy Omega (ironically intuitively Rude, Grassy, FD-ish, but underside is very close to blastzone).

 

[erico9001]

Have you guys tried reaching @Anther about this? He's on Anther's Ladder more than Smashboards it seems though, so it might be better to get to him through there. If this was implemented into Anther's Ladder I figure it would become very well known and popular.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Actually fighting competently in flying form is one of the keys to winning on PS2. People don't know what to do when you start going in and just fighting when the stage is like that, and then they die. Players around here seem to like PS2 more than you'd think as well; I don't have a point to make from that it's just an observation. Either way, I was more struck by the absence of Kongo Jungle 64; that stage seems more obviously okay. I'm not sure debating the merits of particular stages is a good idea in this thread though; procedure is really the key.

As per the general proposal, it seems very likely to result in flat + plat being selected a disproportionate number of times. Even if that doesn't actually happen, certain stages are going to be "fringe" for their group and selected rarely; I think this proposal in practice will limit the number of stages you see actually getting picked versus pure full list striking. Most importantly, the first stage of striking introduces a huge fairness concern about who goes first; going second is a huge advantage in that system since you have knowledge of your opponent's strike before you make your own, and that is pretty problematic. Like I'd always "have to" strike FD style stages since I really don't want to play on them at all, but if I go second and my opponent does that, I suddenly have all of this extra leverage that could easily decide a close game just because I won rock-paper-scissors. For those downsides, I'm not seeing an obvious upside. It's an interesting idea and not the worst one I've seen, but it seems sub-optimal to me.

 

[Linkshot]

Either way, I was more struck by the absence of Kongo Jungle 64; that stage seems more obviously okay.

The answer will disappoint you: I merely forgot it existed. I'd sacrifice Duck Hunt for it if need be, or, since I trust your word, add Halberd to Plats (7 total) and then fill in Halberd's slot in Transformations with Pokemon Stadium 2. I'm gonna have to agree that Flat-with-Plats will win in the majority of matchups, too. I still want to try Kalos out in a ruleset, though. Registeel is the only legendary that's actually a nuisance (Ho-oh just makes the fire taller and Rayquaza is majorly telegraphed).

 

[Pazx]

@ Linkshot how does counterpicking on subsequent games work?

 

[[Deuce]]

Is even less likely? The general public cares even less for that stages.

Though fun news, Hypest hopes to transition to FLSS very soon

Absolutely love your ruleset (3 stock, custom on, FLSS mostly) I hope by actually implementing it in tournaments it will catch wind

the only drawback I can think of for TOs is the additional time consumed which may be significant with all 3 combined

 

[Methacrylate]

Why we picked Omega Palutena: Static background, perfect lighting, FD's geometry, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Onett: Static background, perfect lighting, can walljump off of walls, textures/models match wall locations.
Why we picked Omega Pilotwings: Great lighting, very plain texturing, textures/models match underside's shape.

The omegas could be further subdivided by the terrain as this could provide advantages/disadvantages in certain match-ups. Would you mitigate this? Would you ban, say all the grassy terrain stages?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It would be FAR easier if we ban every Omega Stage.
There is no reason not to do it.

 

[Linkshot]

It would be FAR easier if we ban every Omega Stage.
There is no reason not to do it.

As far as I can tell, Palutena Omega is identical to Final Destination without having the very disruptive background. I would sooner ban FD just because we have better options.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't remember where it is, but someone made a post stating how NO Ω Stage is identical to FD.

Also, banning all Ωs altogether is, as I see it, the same as banning Custom Moves: Just removing one option from the game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't remember where it is, but someone made a post stating how NO Ω Stage is identical to FD.

Also, banning all Ωs altogether is, as I see it, the same as banning Custom Moves: Just removing one option from the game.

Given that Omega stages were supposed to be a competitive flavor version of every stage, it would be the height of irony if they were banned en masse.

 

[Piford]

As far as I can tell, Palutena Omega is identical to Final Destination without having the very disruptive background. I would sooner ban FD just because we have better options.

Nah Omega Palutena's is much easier to scrooge on than Final Destination.

 

[Linkshot]

I don't remember where it is, but someone made a post stating how NO Ω Stage is identical to FD.

Also, banning all Ωs altogether is, as I see it, the same as banning Custom Moves: Just removing one option from the game.

I guess I can't really argue with that, at this point. Fine. I concede.

 

[M15t3R E]

Players can already CP neutral or CP stages, so the key difference with this plan would be that all non-banned stages would be available for game 1 of a set, correct? Also, if we discard stage striking what kind of procedure replaces it?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Players can already CP neutral or CP stages, so the key difference with this plan would be that all non-banned stages would be available for game 1 of a set, correct? Also, if we discard stage striking what kind of procedure replaces it?

Correct and we just strike from all of them so there isn't a striking replacement suggested. That's the jist of this proposal.

 

[Iceweasel]

This is an interesting idea. I'd remove Wuhu, Windy Hill, and PS2 from the list entirely, though. I'd rather not waste 3 strikes on stages that bad. I'm not quite sold on this idea yet, but I think it's worth a few test runs.

It might also be a good idea to increase stage bans (not strikes) from 2 to 3 to reflect the larger stage list. I haven't given this much thought, but it seems like characters that do better on FD-like stages than Battlefield-like stages will have a harder time getting to a more favorable stage.

This post assumes that this proposed method for selecting a stage only applies to Game 1, and games 2 and 3 are selected in the normal way. If I've misunderstood the OP, please ignore this post.

 

[webbedspace]

This is an interesting idea. I'd remove Wuhu, Windy Hill, and PS2 from the list entirely, though. I'd rather not waste 3 strikes on stages that bad.

Is it really a waste, though? If you know your opponent doesn't want to go there (and it should be easy to divine from the matchup when they don't) then you don't need to use them. If you know they do, then striking them eliminates their best options and is just as weakening as striking FD/BF etc. If they're trying to go there just to troll you (i.e it isn't in their favour for the matchup at all), they're probably inferior in skill and will lose anyway.

 

[digiholic]

This is an interesting idea. I'd remove Wuhu, Windy Hill, and PS2 from the list entirely, though. I'd rather not waste 3 strikes on stages that bad.

As someone who dabbles in Little Mac, I feel the same way about Battlefield. Doesn't mean the stage ins't fair.

 

[Iceweasel]

As someone who dabbles in Little Mac, I feel the same way about Battlefield. Doesn't mean the stage ins't fair.

Windy Hill is a hilariously bad stage, there's no reason to even consider it unless we go to 2v2v2 or 3v3. Wuhu's boat transformation is very small and the right side kills you. There's such little room for stage control and spacing mistakes that I feel it creates too much variance in a fight. Pokemon Stadium 2's air transformation isn't even good for air fighters, since if you make a reading error on an airdodge either you completely reverse the attacker/defender dynamic for far longer than a normal air fight or both players stay away from each other until they hit the ground. The Electric transformation removes plenty of get-up options and edgeguarding options alike. It's not so mush that I don't like these stages, it's that I feel that they're competitively bad.

Every one of my alts is strongly disadvantaged by Lylat, and to a lesser extent my main. I'm not pushing for a Lylat ban, since I feel that it's a good counterpick for people who main characters with flexible recoveries, like Link, versus a more "locked-in" recoverer, like Ness. Likewise, the ducks in Duck Hunt block my main's side B and my down B and it's hard to safely reach someone landing on the tree, yet I'm not pushing for a ban on Duck Hunt, because I feel that it's a competitively viable stage.