Stage/Matchups Discussion Thread

[Smash G 0 D]

So I was talking to Vist on AIM and we started talking about stages and matchups for Luigi. So let's discuss em here.

First we started talking about Fox. I like BF for Fox because of the edges. It's easy to gimp him there, and it doesn't take too much away from Luigi besides UpB-ing up the sides of a stage. You could also go to Dreamland, if you prefer going to a stage that's good for you instead of bad for your opponent. I'm a fan of PS1 against fastfallers. You get your normal flatness for Luigi's combos, but with the advantage of platforms that you don't get on PS1. And there's a lot to distract Fox from shinespiking you, and Falco from laser camping.

Ummm. Don't go to Yoshi's Island that much? I mean the stage is okay for him, but if your opponents CP's Marth or Falcon, you're pretty much screwed. They OWN that stage.

For Sheik, I think FoD is a great stage. She doesn't have much space for needles, and the platforms can mess up grab combos, while Luigi has all the necessary space for combos/edgeguards. And you get kills early (while she does too, but even in a big stage your recovery wouldn't help you THAT much that it would make a huge difference).

DISCUSS.

P.S. - All Luigis coming to Pound 4: We should meet up before the tourney starts and share our tricks and crap with whatever with each other. With the lack of recent videos, I guarantee we all know something that the other Luigis don't.

 

[-ACE-]

PS1? You mean Poke Stadium? Against fastfallers? thats like where Fox mains thrive lol. Spacies to well there.

Yoshi's Island? I'm guessing you meant YS. I've always liked that stage for Luigi. Marth can be tough there, but Falcon really only gains some walljump trickiness. Aside from short blast zones and a small ceiling that's really it, you just have to know what you're getting in to. Luigi has a ton of edgeguarding options on YS and can move around on that stage very fluidly.

 

[Oracle]

Why PS1 for fastfallers? Fox especially owns on that stage vs. luigi since he doesn't fall from the shine, falcon has room for combos... I really only see it work against falco, where it's easy to use the platforms to increase mobility to outmaneuver his lasers.

I agree with ace- I do love me some yoshi story. it's size helps luigi's mobility, its walls help his recovery to an extent, and captain falcon/falco don't hugely benefit from it.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Sorry, too much Brawl @_@ PS1 = Stadium 1 (there's a 2) and YI = Yoshi's Island. Yeah, I mean YS. >_<

Yeah Luigi can move around on YS very fluidly, but he can do the same thing on BF and Dreamland and FoD. FoD gives you the same advantages without being ***** by Falcon.

I like PS1 for fastfallers, maybe I'm just weird, but I'm really comfortable there. What is Fox going to do to me after shining me? You go SO far away he can't really follow up. One thing Vist pointed out to me is that you can just try sliding WITH the shine rather that double jumping or trying to even out the motion, so that you just land on the edge. That way you'll get invincibility frames and Fox won't even be able to punish you with more than 1 or 2 lasers.

Yeah spacies is a better word for CP-ing PS1 with. Falcon probably isn't the character to take to PS1. I'd take him to BF or FoD. He really is a tough opponent for Luigi :/. Would Dreamland work?

EDIT: Yeah Falco isn't that great on YS, except for the gained ability of dtilt/usmash kills. But really, why not go with FoD? The moving platforms switch up your platdashing game. Eh, I dunno. It's better to go to, say, Dreamland, in fear of Marth.

 

[-ACE-]

I also like to allow the shine to just take me to the ledge, I think that's a good idea usually, but the transformations on PS are way in Fox/Falco's favor compared to luigi.

And actually YS is **** for Falco imo.

Dreamland ***** haha. I love dreamland always, unless I'm fighting puff lol

 

[Dark Hart]

And actually YS is **** for Falco imo.l

I've always heard that YS is **** against Falco for Luigi, but Jim thinks that is **** for Falco too. Explain?

Edit: Sorry ace, I saw you and wrote Ganon, lol, I meant Luigi

 

[Smash G 0 D]

FD > Sheik.

Go there. Or be square.

Seriously. Edgeguarding her is super easy there. Just grab the ledge, and get up when she tries to recover and Ftilt/Aerial or something. And because Luigi is potentially linear you can get all up in her business. Dsmash will make her useless.

 

[1Frame_Dynamism :: Bamsey]

FD for Shiek for sure. FoD is great for Shiek, that's suicide.
Don't go to battlefield for her either.

Falcons ban FoD for a reason, take him there if he doesn't ban it.
Otherwise PS is a good option for him.

Marth will own YS, but on DL and FD you mess with his spacing.
Use your speed on big stages for him.

Falco can be handled on YS, but be sure to DI the shines.
Aside from that, FD is always good vs him.

FD and YS are decent against Fox too.
A lot of that depends on the player but no stage is horrible.

YS for Peach as she's too easy to kill there.
Your use for platforms is better so go PS too for her.

Jiggs is gay but your platform game and speed are better.
Go YS, BF, PS, just minimize gimps and you're good.




If you chose YS and they go Marth, that's what secondaries are for.

They switch to a secondary, why can't you?

Often not having a secondary can be your only downfall.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I don't think FoD is that bad for Sheik. It's not nearly as bad as BF because it changes.

Falcon doesn't have enough space to fly around on FoD and the changes on platforms aren't good for him.

I disagree with Marth at FD. He outspaces you on everything.

Yeah flat stages = combos on spacies.

Here's the thing with FD and YS vs Fox... If you get shinespiked into the stage, you can still survive. So just keep sticking to the wall of the edge and you'll be fun as long as he doesn't try to CCShine your missed sweetspotted UpB.

I like YS and PS for Peach as well.

And I pretty much agree with those stages for Jiggs.

Well yeah, secondaries. I was basing my arguments off of only Luigi though. I'd just go Marth against Marth at YS, lol.

 

[Pakman]

With the lack of recent videos, I guarantee we all know something that the other Luigis don't.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rohins

KA IS AWESOME

 

[Smash G 0 D]

WHOA. I know Rohins through Brawl... xD

EDIT: Just watched the vids. He has some REALLY nice Fair/Dair stuff O_O

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ka's Luigi is incredible.

 

[Ch3s]

I need help with samus. What are the best neutrals to take samus to? Or very good counterpicks (i dont wanna CP unless the advantage is too strong to pass up, cause it will slow me down too )

 

[chiZZLeSD]

can some one with legit knowledge of luigi in melee make a guide or something? i dont mean to dis the maker of this thread, im just looking for a little in-depth analysis like overall strategy to add damage, combo starters, etc

 

[thegreatkazoo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=86135

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I need help with samus. What are the best neutrals to take samus to? Or very good counterpicks (i dont wanna CP unless the advantage is too strong to pass up, cause it will slow me down too )

I took Hugs' Samus to and won at FoD. I think that's a pretty great stage for the MU. The changing platforms don't help Samus much with missiles, and if you keep in mind that she can't beat your DownB approach with anything but fully-charged CS, you'll do fine.

can some one with legit knowledge of luigi in melee make a guide or something? i dont mean to dis the maker of this thread, im just looking for a little in-depth analysis like overall strategy to add damage, combo starters, etc

Sorry that I don't have 'legit' enough knowledge of Luigi for you. Did you even read the guide? There's plenty of info about moves that start combos under the move descriptions.

And maybe you should take a look at ALL of the stickies. Tobias' guide contains a lot of info, including damage. My guide is still incomplete.

 

[mio]

I was just wondering, where can I look up what Luigi's chain grabs are (and on which characters/percent ranges) if he even has any? I looked around on the stickies and I could find any of that stuff in the first posts (didn't wanna go searching through the pages). I haven't really practiced that much against other good players and my advanced technique/match-up knowledge is terrible =(

When practicing against the computer I found that up-throw, turnaround, up-throw, repeat works at low percents on spacies and other bigger characters... but does this actually work against real opponents who DI properly?

While we're at it I looked for this in all the intro threads and couldn't find it (also a super noob question): when you're on the edge, how do you execute that tech-like hop onto the stage----the single quick/short roll that puts you right at the foot of the stage & doesn't have vulnerable frames? I've done it randomly on accident but I can't do it on command lol.

 

[Pakman]

I have seen eddy Mexico and others cp to brinstar, I HATE that stage. Why go there?

 

[thegreatkazoo]

I actually do this myself on occasion.

Lava combos-->Sneak in fair or dair-->great profit.

 

[1Frame_Dynamism :: Bamsey]

I need help with samus. What are the best neutrals to take samus to? Or very good counterpicks (i dont wanna CP unless the advantage is too strong to pass up, cause it will slow me down too )

FD means you get all the in and out speed you want and the only way for her to shoot something without standing still means setting herself up to get combod by jumping. She loves to stay on the ground and you wreck her in the air, so this forces her to not spam and play PURELY defense with NO way to make you approach. AKA she can't do what she needs to and is forced to react to you rather than you react to projectiles. AKA she loses.

Yoshis, FoD, not much room and you cover it all. She can't spam close range and they're small enough stages to kill her quickly. As well they have that nice edge for easy recovery for you.

I actually like all stages except Battlefield against her. You can move amazingly, that's why Falcon, Fox, Marth etc do so well against her. Moving messes up her game.

I took Hugs' Samus to and won at FoD. I think that's a pretty great stage for the MU. The changing platforms don't help Samus much with missiles, and if you keep in mind that she can't beat your DownB approach with anything but fully-charged CS, you'll do fine.



Sorry that I don't have 'legit' enough knowledge of Luigi for you. Did you even read the guide? There's plenty of info about moves that start combos under the move descriptions.

And maybe you should take a look at ALL of the stickies. Tobias' guide contains a lot of info, including damage. My guide is still incomplete.

Don't use DownB vs Samus, just results in CC > attack you. It's a bad approach in general anyway. Out space the **** out of her and don't stand near too long or you'll get hit back. Her bomb > backaway > attack or missle spamming is the ONLY real issue. She can be tough to space against, but that's ALL she has.

does this actually work against real opponents who DI properly?

There are better things to do than CG, like following with smashes or aerials than tech chasing or edgeguarding etc.
For the most part, the CGs you mentioned will work, but people will DI to platforms/mess around with DI to trick you/get off stage so you can't follow up/etc if you just try CGing and not following up when you have the chance with something better.

I have seen eddy Mexico and others cp to brinstar, I HATE that stage. Why go there?

A lot (most) characters rely on SHing aerials, DDing into grabs, things like that. It messes with all of this, where Luigi doesn't have that problem much at all as a WD ftilt will cover everything but Shield and FH over LOL. The platforms on the side make it easy to edgeguard and lava + little things on the side that you can hit (with missle) help your recovery more than anyone else. It's short off the sides, making it easy for your burst kill moves to finish off a single hit, and Luigi can set up edgeguarding from almost every combo he does. Which is great with that stage structure+lava (nobody else gets plopped up nearly hitstunless or has problems with getting gimped as much as Luigi, and Luigi doesn't get gimped if he can recover below the stage where they can't gimp him.)

It's actually REALLY good for Luigi in the sense that it doesn't do much against him, and a lot for him, and a lot against everyone else, and very little for anyone else.

Cieling glitch sucks though... >_>

 

[Smash G 0 D]

DON'T DownB against Samus? Chico, I'm inclined to disagree. Samus isn't ALWAYS crouching, and if you see that she is, it's easy enough to just retreat.

 

[chiZZLeSD]

edit: im dumb, nevermind

 

[Dynamism?]

DON'T DownB against Samus? Chico, I'm inclined to disagree. Samus isn't ALWAYS crouching, and if you see that she is, it's easy enough to just retreat.

Couching only takes a second...less but you get it...

If she's on the GROUND, she can CROUCH your down B...

So if she's on the GROUND and NOT in an attack animation or something of that sort... don't down B to approach..

Was Hugs slacking against you or something? LOL jkz maybeh ;D

I simply space well with approaches and pressure for wins, not run through things because I can. :O

Different styles I guess LOL


I seriously don't think Down B is good against Samus though, there's no way it's good XD

And I've had ridiculous amounts of Samus practice against ridiculous amounts of ridiculously good Samus players to come to that conclusion LOL

Whatever floats your boat I guess :D

 

[Smash G 0 D]

If he was messing around game 3 wouldn't have been last stock >_<

Samus would DSmash, yes? If she's crouching, you can go past her and the Dsmash won't hit you lol.

But yeah, now that you mention it I actually didn't DownB as much when she's on the ground and in a position where she can punish DownB approach.

 

[Dynamism?]

Was it DownB through her aerial missile to approach? That's the only time I could see it work, but usually there are better options.

Often they dsmash after yeah, often jab/ftilt if it's just a missed spacing (I guess not to punish Down B though) :\

Yeah, and she's almost always on the ground and able to punish it. ;D

Also why down B through missile approach when you can ftilt through? :O LOL

Samus needs to drop bombs to beat Luigi's that know the match up. AKA Samus that knows the match up will be ready to crouch/have bombs to stop WDs/space really well and shield lots against good Luigi's.
AKA Down B =

 

[Smash G 0 D]

LOL Yeah DownB is for missiles. And I use DownB because it cancels instantly into Ftilt or Jabs while keeping your momentum. I swear I said that like 8 times ._.

 

[Dynamism?]

Yeah that's reasonable and the best application for sure.

The only problem is the CC... >_>

Usually if I Down B into a missile and it cancels and I can follow up... I SH a spaced Dair or even an empty hop > gets them to shield > grab

Stuff like that. Just attacking head on is good, but if you do that enough, Samus has no lag after her missile CANCEL... Samus learns too :O

But everything has its moment

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Usually if I Down B into a missile and it cancels and I can follow up... I SH a spaced Dair or even an empty hop > gets them to shield > grab

Stuff like that. Just attacking head on is good, but if you do that enough, Samus has no lag after her missile CANCEL... Samus learns too :O

I do the same thing, actually.

The first time, however, you'll be able to hit with all three grabs. And I doubt by that point they'd have forseen your whole tactic if it's the first time, so if you shield or escape I don't think you'd get Dsmash'd.

In addition to the Dair thing - If they CC it at low % and still don't go anywhere, I follow up with Nair. Sometimes it's safer to escape though.

 

[Dynamism?]

Down B to escape/hit like a Nair would?

I've never tried that... semi risky, donno if it's quick enough/safe on the CC from counter attack. Could be ok once in a while.

I prefer backing away with the Dair so usually too far for a Nair follow up...
I've actually noticed at certain higher % that not backing away might be better if I tried it, but I don't. Get scurred I guess.

WD>SH Dair>Backaway>empty landing>ftilt.
Hilariously effective when they're CCing expecting that 2nd aerial after you do it once or twice XD

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I believe DownB could work like that. It seems like an interesting thing to try out, but yeah; it may still be punishable by CC. For Nair you just need to press A and drop down, FF or not, lol.

Gotta love messing with people's expectations xP

Would you empty land? Or waveland.. I may even just airdodge backwards and FF.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have seen eddy Mexico and others cp to brinstar, I HATE that stage.

You're from EC you're not allowed to like CPs.

 

[TheLake]

Vudujin loves brinstar!

Then again i love rainbowcruise as a CP

but then again;again i use zelda soooo

<3 luigis though, they are the cats meow

 

[Lordydennek]

FD for Shiek for sure. FoD is great for Shiek, that's suicide.
Don't go to battlefield for her either.

Falcons ban FoD for a reason, take him there if he doesn't ban it.
Otherwise PS is a good option for him.

Marth will own YS, but on DL and FD you mess with his spacing.
Use your speed on big stages for him.

Falco can be handled on YS, but be sure to DI the shines.
Aside from that, FD is always good vs him.

FD and YS are decent against Fox too.
A lot of that depends on the player but no stage is horrible.

YS for Peach as she's too easy to kill there.
Your use for platforms is better so go PS too for her.

Jiggs is gay but your platform game and speed are better.
Go YS, BF, PS, just minimize gimps and you're good.




If you chose YS and they go Marth, that's what secondaries are for.

They switch to a secondary, why can't you?

Often not having a secondary can be your only downfall.

Ive bolded the parts that are horribly wrong. Falcon on PS grants him full hop tech chases. thats something you NEVER want. The neutral part of that stage sets him up for combos so well he doesnt have to try. and Falco on FD??? thats just asking to be laser camped until the falcos b button breaks. if youve had good luck vs falcos there in the past they havent been playing right. take falco to BF or RC

Also. I notice there is no matchup strategy discussion. Smash God, are you goin to add that to ur guide? something like Luigi vs (insert charater). A lot of guides have that.

or you could just have a few small discussions. start threads for Luigi vs top tier, luigi vs high tier and so on. Im just throwin out ideas.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Probably. I figured I'd do one thing at a time.

Also I haven't updated my guide in a hella long time cuz I'm super lazy >_<

 

[Lordydennek]

lol its cool. actually i just started using luigi last night and wanted to look up his matchups. and there are none lol. but whenever you find the time is cool. until then ill just nair.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

If you want to discuss matchups before I update guides feel free to IM me at any time. I've talked to several people on IM about matchups actually.. I should save some of these convos and just post em under matchups >_<

rillyrillyrishi <- AIM

 

[1Frame_Dynamism :: Bamsey]

Ive bolded the parts that are horribly wrong. Falcon on PS grants him full hop tech chases. thats something you NEVER want. The neutral part of that stage sets him up for combos so well he doesnt have to try. and Falco on FD??? thats just asking to be laser camped until the falcos b button breaks. if youve had good luck vs falcos there in the past they havent been playing right. take falco to BF or RC

I won't take Falcon to a non-neutral, and I won't take him to dreamland unless I'm a better player and the Falcon doesn't know how to use his room. BF and YS are both alright but YS means one grab or good knee and it's over off the side, his walljump stuff is beast against small recovering if you survive it too. BF is just a pain to recover on but it's not bad.

I take PS over them for the general idea that the platforms help you more than they help him at neutral, it's big enough that you can survive quite well and he's a lot easier to edgeguard with fewer options (platform placement etc) and in small spaces, weegee wins on its changes. FD is boring... lol

RC against Falco is suicide (shine off top and out camp) I would suggest not going there ever against a Falco lol. BF is good yeah, PS isn't bad either but not ideal and DL can be annoying but still a great stage for both of you (so better player wins). With FD, they can't camp under platforms and you just stay on them. Lazers mean nothing if you're on them (and you can be on them the whole time since Falco can't move horizontally very well) and powershielding is great once you can do that.

Falco is hopeless on that stage. Tech chases = better for you all across the stage. No platforms = bad for him less pillar combos. The only Falcos I have trouble with are the ones that have lots of Ka experience (right above WA is easy travels = tough for other weegees LOL)
I'd take Falco to brinstar over anything though. Kamakaze gimps into the lava is an easy 100% for them and 20% for you. Almost gets me auto stocks if done right. XD

until then ill just nair.

I lol'd

rillyrillyrishi <- AIM

Wtf is with that AIM name? It's pretty good.


And good idea about the match up thing.

 

[Blea Gelo]

falcon in ps its worse than playing him in fd. for coutnering falcon FD does pretty good. dream land will also be a good option, its big, u survive a lot there, and falcon's recovery fking sucks.. also, when playing a falcon, try not to go to platforms so much well hited uair its a fking combo and u may see a luigi die..

Falcon in rainbow cruise? nop, deffinitly not... dont think about the cruise, yes that part is good for you. what about alal the other parts of the stage? ur ****ed up, no offense.. i like taking falco to battlefield and pokemon stadium.

 

[Lordydennek]

Actually i think ur right Falco at brinstar is always better than RC. I played like 5 matches there against my friends falco and won most of em but he wasnt shining enough now that i think about it. My friend refuses to play me on brinstar...he just goes puff

 

[Blea Gelo]

yeap.. u could also try battle field wif falcon. sucks because its not that bigg.. but he has less stage for moving