Stage Legality Speculations

[WritersBlah]

Due to popular demand from my counterpart thread on the Wii U discussion board (which can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-speculations.353338), this thread has been created to speculate the potential legality of each 3DS stage in tournament play. Note that this thread will not be about discussing potential new stages. I would personally like to discuss only stages that have already been confirmed through official announcements, and how likely they are to be used in the tournament scene. I'll go ahead and post all the currently confirmed 3DS stages, and will update this post accordingly as we get new confirmations.

Stage List
Battlefield

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Do I really need to give one? It's arguably the most neutral stage in all of the Smash games to date; to argue any other status would be highly unorthodox.

Final Destination (and its variants) (Wii U version depicted below)

Speculated Legality Status: Starter
Reasoning: Like Battlefield, it's been a starter stage in every Smash game to date. It does favor characters with a good ground game or campy projectiles, but most matchups here are usually pretty fair overall. The variations of Final Destination, as seen in the For Glory mode, seem to have a few non-aesthetic differences like size and blast zone areas, but we'll really need to see these in action before we can really give a definitive answer, though my guess is that they'll probably all be legal starters as well.

Boxing Ring (Wii U version depicted below)

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: Here's an interesting stage. Judging by the gameplay footage we've seen thus far, it looks like it'll be a very large horizontal stage, so characters with strong vertical finishers seem like they'll have a bit of an advantage. The ropes bordering the main stage also have some interesting properties, giving characters who jump off of them a higher jump, though I'm not entirely sure how much this'll affect a match. It also appears to be a walkoff, so that may be something going against its tournament viability. Overall, there are quite a few elements at work here which may change the game up a bit too much. I'd personally like to advocate for giving it a trial run at the beginning of the tournament scene, but odds are in favor of this one getting a ban.

3D Land

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage, like Mushroomy Kingdom in Brawl, is a scrolling stage with some pretty nasty hazards in the latter half of the stage. From looking at the footage we have, the stage scrolls way too fast for any form of competitive fighting to take place, not to mention some of those hazards look pretty tough to avoid and have some decent knockback to them. Pretty much a guaranteed ban.

Rainbow Road

Speculated Legality Status: Banned/Counterpick
Reasoning: This is the Mute City of Smash 4. A transforming stage with a small center platform and a few minor hazards. Overall, these stages tend to be banned more often than not. There are a few small tournaments that choose to keep Mute City and Port Town legal counterpicks, but for a more unified ruleset, I'd personally place this one in the banned category.

Jungle Japes

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage has been banned in every iteration of Smash thus far. To quote the Smash Wiki, "The stage is currently banned in Melee, due to it favoring characters with good jumping and projectile abilities, gimping potential on the left side of the stage, and overly powerful stage hazard of the Klaptrap and its incredibly high ceiling, giving a disproportionate advantage to horizontal finishers. The stage is also banned in the Unity Ruleset of Brawl, for the same reasons, though it has seen use in experimental rulesets." And to quote Smasher D1, "That's banned already! THAT'S BANNED ALREADY!!"

Gerudo Valley

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Oy, where do I start with this one? First, it's a walkoff. That right there is an issue. Second, that bridge in the middle breaks (not sure if by damage or just randomly,) which just disrupts any combat happening on it. Also of note, the reveal trailer showed some kind of ice hazard on the right side of the stage, though we haven't confirmed whether that as part of the stage or simply an item. Regardless, there's too much going against this stage for it to be considered legal.

Spirit Train

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage seems like it might be an early ban, but hear me out on this one. First off, the stage isn't as big as it may appear at first. The platforms aren't too close to the blast zones, and the only hazard we've seen thus far is the Big Blue-esque road of death on the sides of the stage. Edgeguarding looks like it'll be just as important here as most other legal stages, and I honestly don't see too much wrong with the stage that could create some bad competitive scenarios. Feel free to argue with me if you disagree, you might change my mind.

Prism Tower

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick
Reasoning: Structurally, this stage seems nearly identical to Brawl's Delfino Plaza, a traditionally counterpicked stage. Depending on how the stage transformations play out, it could end up falling into starter or even banned categories, though both options seem a bit unlikely.

Arena Ferox

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Starter
Reasoning: This is probably one of the most neutral stages that have been revealed for the 3DS thus far. Even so, some of the platforms in the transformations are placed pretty high, and may cause it to be placed under counterpick territory. Then again, the 3DS version of Smash seems to have a severe lack of starter stages, so this may have to fill the gap.

Reset Bomb Forest

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Judging by the image above, this seems like a pretty neutral stage. A bit on the tall side, but overall, pretty standard counterpick material. However, once the aftermath transformation sets in, this stage's platforms go a bit crazy. I'm not sure if it's so bad that it'll necessitate a ban, but we're gonna want to keep our eyes peeled for more information on this stage.

Tortimer Island

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Oh look, another walkoff. How lovely. Add to the fact that this stage changes itself every time its chosen and there's literally nothing else going on in this stage, and it's pretty much a certified ban.

Balloon Fight

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: So this is a walkoff where walking off to the left and right edges of the screen does not kill the opponent. Odd, but would give this stage a chance...if it weren't for the fact that there's flippers everywhere on this stage, there's a rather annoying hazard towards the center pit, and making meteor smashes and vertical finishers the only things that matter on this stage. It definitely constitutes a ban.

Living Room

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Firstly, it's a walk off, and a rather simple one at that. Secondly, some of those blocks near the center look like they're gonna give campers too much of an edge, and potential wall infinites seem pretty easy to pull off here. Also note how much easier it is to land a vertical finisher here than a horizontal one. Definitely will be banned.

Find Mii

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick...ish
Reasoning: Speaking only on the stage structure itself, this looks pretty simplistic overall. It looks like characters with a meteor smash could pose an issue, but I don't think that'd be enough of a reason for a ban. What really makes me unsure of what to label this stage is because of that stage boss. We have no idea if his addition is merely cosmetic, works as a normal stage hazard, or outright takes focus away from the match, though judging by the video the stage appeared in, he doesn't look like he'll pose too much of an issue. Labeling this a counterpick just to be on the safe side.

Tomodachi

Speculated Legality Status: ???
Reasoning: The image you currently see before you is literally the only footage we currently have of this stage. As the image is very zoomed in, we can't really tell anything about the stage, making giving it a rating pretty much impossible at the moment. If I had to guess though, this stage might be a reskinned Luigi's Mansion from Brawl, which would probably constitute a ban for the same reasons Luigi's Mansion is banned. However, I don't have anything to back this up, so for the time being, this stage will remain unrated.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Yeesh, 3DS stages are a wacky bunch. Arena Ferox looks good, though.

Competitive Smash 3DS isn't likely to take off in a serious way, though, so I'm not especially worried.

 

[Chauzu]

Looks good, but yeah, I think the 3DS scene will mostly be online so I think it will be influenced by For Glory with Final Destination.

 

[Luigi#1]

The Ice hazard on Gerudo valley is really Kotakee of the Twinorva sisters. It's not an item. The other one [Koume] makes fire.

 

[LancerStaff]

We've seen screenshots of the island closer to the dock, and it doesn't appear to be a walkoff. And I've heard that you can't swim in Japes's water, so everybody might just sink Great Bay style. I think it might be a viable stage depending on our other choices.

Rainbow Road could also be viable depending on the strength of the hazards and other viable stages. Let's look at Brawl's Mario Kart stage for a minute. Eight racers, usually clustered together. When coming from behind they're incredibly easy to dodge. Port Town and Mute City each have thirty racers going at blinding speeds making it near impossible to dodge, so I'd say the comparison to the F-Zero stages is kinda unfair. Heck, the landing order could be the same every time or something and it'd be even more viable then the F-Zeros.

 

[mimgrim]

Spirit Train

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage seems like it might be an early ban, but hear me out on this one. First off, the stage isn't as big as it may appear at first. The platforms aren't too close to the blast zones, and the only hazard we've seen thus far is the Big Blue-esque road of death on the sides of the stage. Edgeguarding looks like it'll be just as important here as most other legal stages, and I honestly don't see too much wrong with the stage that could create some bad competitive scenarios. Feel free to argue with me if you disagree, you might change my mind.

First off let's talk about why Big Blue is banned. The main reason is because of stalling. With all the platforms in the air that come forth in that stage it is easy to do a form of circle stalling from the air. In a form similar to Nofair. So will this stage allow the same? Or would it be more of an issue of single platforms and more of supporting camping?[/quote]

Exhibit A;

Ok this doesn't look too bad. The platform is a bit high. So it could promote camping.

Exhibit B;

It looks like here a character with good speed or aerial mobility could abuse this section rather badly.

Exhibit C;

Another platform that is rather high up and could promote camping.

I would lean it more towards banned.

Arena Ferox

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick/Starter
Reasoning: This is probably one of the most neutral stages that have been revealed for the 3DS thus far. Even so, some of the platforms in the transformations are placed pretty high, and may cause it to be placed under counterpick territory. Then again, the 3DS version of Smash seems to have a severe lack of starter stages, so this may have to fill the gap.

Let's take a closer look at the transformations we have seen.

This one looks ok. It has a kind of Jungle Japes layout to of it. But nothing too bad. Could promote some camping.

Another one that looks fine. Platform layout seems good. They may also be breakable like in Castle Siege.

This is getting a little crazy now. Circle stalling seems like it might be possible here. Camping definitely looks like an issue. Might not be as bad as it looks. But it still looks whacky.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYMORE. Circle camping looks like it will be prominent here. Camping definitely looks like it will be a problem here. This is whack yo.

I would say Counterpick/Banned. I mean seriously. Some of the transformations seem like they are on the extreme side. I definitely can't see starter though, no matter how limiting the legal stage list might be.

Find Mii

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick...ish
Reasoning: Speaking only on the stage structure itself, this looks pretty simplistic overall. It looks like characters with a meteor smash could pose an issue, but I don't think that'd be enough of a reason for a ban. What really makes me unsure of what to label this stage is because of that stage boss. We have no idea if his addition is merely cosmetic, works as a normal stage hazard, or outright takes focus away from the match, though judging by the video the stage appeared in, he doesn't look like he'll pose too much of an issue. Labeling this a counterpick just to be on the safe side.

The part of the stage on the right looks like it could promote camping as well. I would go with counterpick/banned.

Prism Tower

Speculated Legality Status: Counterpick
Reasoning: Structurally, this stage seems nearly identical to Brawl's Delfino Plaza, a traditionally counterpicked stage. Depending on how the stage transformations play out, it could end up falling into starter or even banned categories, though both options seem a bit unlikely.

I would say it is closer to Halbred.

Counterpick seems reasonable. Just remember the stage starts out as a walk-off.

Tortimer Island

Speculated Legality Status: Banned
Reasoning: Oh look, another walkoff. How lovely. Add to the fact that this stage changes itself every time its chosen and there's literally nothing else going on in this stage, and it's pretty much a certified ban.

I am actually unsure about it's walk-offs.

It really doesn't look like walk-offs to me.

I think instead it will depend on how water works and how prominent the shark is. Banned/counterpick.

 

[guedes the brawler]

if the rooftop of the spirt train is solid even from bellow it will be banned for sure

from what i've seen there is a design of Arena Ferox that has a wall, in fact, it is the one showcased on this pic. insta ban if you ask me,

 

[onjai_x3]

Well, personally I like these stages more than the wii u ones. But competitive players will definitely hate a vast majority of them.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

All dat

For Arena Ferox, circle camping probably wouldn't be an issue; even if one of the transformations can promote circle camping, that's useless if it changes after a while. Circle camping is only a problem if you can do it continuously, otherwise it's the same as running away for a bit which you can do on pretty much any stage.

Regarding the AC island, even if it isn't a walk-off, it would favour characters with horizontal recovery. Characters like Link that rely on recovering up to the platform from below would be screwed.

 

[mimgrim]

from what i've seen there is a design of Arena Ferox that has a wall, in fact, it is the one showcased on this pic. insta ban if you ask me,

PS1 would like to have a word with you.

 

[mimgrim]

For Arena Ferox, circle camping probably wouldn't be an issue; even if one of the transformations can promote circle camping, that's useless if it changes after a while. Circle camping is only a problem if you can do it continuously, otherwise it's the same as running away for a bit which you can do on pretty much any stage.

That's true. Those 2 transformations are still on the extreme side though. Their whole layout is whacky. I definitely don't see starter stage in any way though.

 

[Banjodorf]

This seems good. I assume all the FD variants will, at the beginning of the game's competitive lifespan share the same status as the original FD.

As the game progresses, things like ceilings, etc. will be taken into account as deciding factors for Starter vs. CP I imagine.

 

[WritersBlah]

You know mimgrim, ordinarily, I'd agree with pretty much everything you said. However, again, I'd like to point out how many banned stages there are in this bloody game. If I go through with your judgments, then literally every stage will have the possibility of getting banned with the exception of Battlefield and Final Destination. Maybe it's just that I'm used to having around a dozen or so legal stages, but this just doesn't seem right.

 

[Banjodorf]

Well, Halberd will most assuredly be counterpick, and Town/City (new Smashville) will almost certainly be neutral. We also don't know all the stages yet, and I still say there will probably be no reason aside from ones that are tested post-release to ban any FD versions of stages, which there will be tons of.

 

[WritersBlah]

Well, Halberd will most assuredly be counterpick, and Town/City (new Smashville) will almost certainly be neutral. We also don't know all the stages yet, and I still say there will probably be no reason aside from ones that are tested post-release to ban any FD versions of stages, which there will be tons of.

Those are all Wii U-exclusive stages. I'm really not too worried about the Wii U version in terms of not having good stages, but the 3DS version is just really lacking in this area, which is what worries me. I know 3DS Smash probably won't have a huge competitive community anyways, but it's still a bit disheartening.

 

[Banjodorf]

That's true. In terms of having stages that aren't just flat, there doesn't seem to be much variety. We haven't seen all the stages yet though, and I bet there's going to be at least a few more.

Assuming he doesn't want to get super gimmicky with them, since there's flat variants of every one of them. Oh well...

 

[mimgrim]

You know mimgrim, ordinarily, I'd agree with pretty much everything you said. However, again, I'd like to point out how many banned stages there are in this bloody game. If I go through with your judgments, then literally every stage will have the possibility of getting banned with the exception of Battlefield and Final Destination. Maybe it's just that I'm used to having around a dozen or so legal stages, but this just doesn't seem right.

Eh.

Smash 64 has like what only 2 or 3 legal stages at this point?

Melee has 6.

Brawl is mostly around around 8-10 stages. With Apex 2014 only running 8.

Project M is the only one that consistently gets around 12 dozen or more at the bigger tournaments.

Limited stages is nothing new. Besides not all stages have been shown yet.


Besides, stages I listed as CP/banned lean more heavily towards CP while the reverse is also true (Banned/CP means more likely to be banned but CP is possible)

Base on the stages I went after along with your analysis.

We can speculate that we will have 2 definite starters.

One sure fire counter pick.

2 stages that lean toward CP but can be banned.

3 stages that lean towards banned but could be CP.

2 stages that are unknown, I''m including Reset Bomb here because I need to seem more of the second part.

With the rest being banned. That's not that bad for the stage we have been shown. And everything is subject to change when the game is released of course.

 

[pickle962]

Oh good f*cking lord! Obviously gimmicky stages are a no go, but would it kill you competitive ***** babies to allow more than just final destination, battlefield, and whatever other stages meet your insane troll logic standards?

 

[Luigi#1]

Oh good f*cking lord! Obviously gimmicky stages are a no go, but would it kill you competitive ***** babies to allow more than just final destination, battlefield, and whatever other stages meet your insane troll logic standards?

Well, it's for equality. I agree it can get stupid, but to make sure no advantages occur that's just what has to happen.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I just posted this in another thread, but it's worth repeating here:

Regardless of any reasons stages might have been banned before, it's still worth reviewing them all before making a ruleset. Just seems like good practice. Even obvious ones like the Wii Fit stage should be checked out in a competitive environment before they're banned (though I suspect it's inevitable).

To take short-cuts is just lazy, and potentially gives us a diminished understanding of the game from the outset.

 

[Empyrean]

I could see Arena Ferox become a CP in the same vein as PS1, specially since there is a lack of good stages as of now. PS1 completely interrupted the flow of the match on two of its transformations, and yet it still was legal. The same could happen to AF.

We will most probably end up being much more lenient with this version of the game. We will maybe even be forced to consider otherwise counterpick stages as starters, assuming that the other stages shown are also gimmicky/hazardous.

As for the ST stage, I think it might be interesting to keep it legal for a bit before deciding if it should be kept so. As OP said, recovering is still an issue, but it will most probably favour horizontal recoveries.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I could see Arena Ferox become a CP in the same vein as PS1, specially since there is a lack of good stages as of now. PS1 completely interrupted the flow of the match on two of its transformations, and yet it still was legal. The same could happen to AF.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between legality and preference. Nobody may like PS1, but if somebody spends hours practicing on it they can gain an advantage by picking it. That's how it should be.

 

[mimgrim]

I could see Arena Ferox become a CP in the same vein as PS1, specially since there is a lack of good stages as of now. PS1 completely interrupted the flow of the match on two of its transformations, and yet it still was legal. The same could happen to AF.

Probably yea. I just think it is a good thing to keep in mind that many people are pushing for the stage to be banned, even in Melee. And who knows. One day they might succeed and bring the stagelist down to 5 stages.

We will most probably end up being much more lenient with this version of the game. We will maybe even be forced to consider otherwise counterpick stages as starters, assuming that the other stages shown are also gimmicky/hazardous.

Eh. I honestly doubt we will be all that lenient. We are notorious for being not lenient on stages. xD

Oh good f*cking lord! Obviously gimmicky stages are a no go, but would it kill you competitive ***** babies to allow more than just final destination, battlefield, and whatever other stages meet your insane troll logic standards?

Watch out everyone.

We got a bad ass over here.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not that much into the competitive scene, but I would like to ask: what is the problem with walk-off stages? Yes, it makes recovery useless, but aside from that, is there anything drastic that makes them get banned?

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not that much into the competitive scene, but I would like to ask: what is the problem with walk-off stages? Yes, it makes recovery useless, but aside from that, is there anything drastic that makes them get banned?

Well the thing you mentioned is a huge deal. It totally kills an important part of Smash and gets rid of edge guarding tactics and the like. When the stage is solely walk-offs, it changes the game rather drastically.

It also promotes gameplay frowned upon by the community. And that is camping.The goal of competitive play is to win. By any means necessary. Wall-offs get people to camp near the walk-offs to get an easy kill, especially if they have a character with a good projectile. As an Olimar main. I do this when I even I am on Castle Siege or Delfino and a wall-off transformation appears. He has a solid projectile grab to where it isn't that big of a risk for him. And it usually leads to easy kills for me. Of course though these transformations are only temporary so they don't affect it as much. But still. Permanent walk-off only is bad.



I would also like to point out the the posts I make regarding these stages are based on what I think will happen to them and not what I want to happen to them.

 

[Jackson]

Pretty unconventional stages thus far. Battlefield, Final Destination, and Arena Ferox are likely starters.

 

[Pokerhappy]

I'm digging Arena Ferox, it looks like it'll be the most plausible after FD and Battlefield. I think we'll have to wait and see as to whether it would be starter or counterpick material, though.

 

[MrGameandBalls]

Who the hell cares?There are FD versions anyway, so the competitive people dont have to complain.

 

[Jackson]

Who the hell cares?There are FD versions anyway, so the competitive people dont have to complain.

I thought these were only accessible online?

 

[Luigi#1]

I thought these were only accessible online?

The fact that items and Rosalina's Final Smash were shown on FD forms of stages, that is likely not the case.

 

[Jackson]

The fact that items and Rosalina's Final Smash were shown on FD forms of stages, that is likely not the case.

Oh, okay. I didn't notice. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[mimgrim]

Who the hell cares?There are FD versions anyway, so the competitive people dont have to complain.

Ignorance must be bliss.

 

[Orngeblu]

Who the hell cares?There are FD versions anyway, so the competitive people dont have to complain.

Where's the dislike button when you need one?

 

[Second Power]

My stage list would probably be Battlefield, Final D, Ferox, Spirit Train, and Prism Tower. So, 5 out of 15 currently. Speaking of which, is there any chance of more stages being revealed, or does 15 sound about right?

 

[Jackson]

My stage list would probably be Battlefield, Final D, Ferox, Spirit Train, and Prism Tower. So, 5 out of 15 currently. Speaking of which, is there any chance of more stages being revealed, or does 15 sound about right?

I think we'll see more past stages at least.

 

[Deleted member]

After taking a better look at the stages I've got to say: I don't see any way that the Boxing Ring will be legal: aside from being a walk-off, the stage is too big very large, imagine Little Mac, a ground fighter, no way to knock him down, and even if he gets somehow in the air, only after being highly, HIGHLY, damaged that he could be KOed to the sides.
And even if the Dark Emperor isn't a boss like Yellow Devil, he was shown to be in the same plane as the fighters, boss or not, he is going to interrupt the fight in a way or another

 

[LancerStaff]

Welp, Reset Bomb Forest is banned. OHKO Ornes.

 

[Deleted member]

Welp, Reset Bomb Forest is banned. OHKO Ornes.

Isn't it an enemy in Smash Run?

 

[LancerStaff]

Isn't it an enemy in Smash Run?

Doh, forgot about Smash Run.
...According to SSBwiki, we haven't seen Ornes in Smash Run yet. They could be a part of Smash Run though, it's hard to make out the stage.
There's still hope!

 

[Deleted member]

Doh, forgot about Smash Run.
...According to SSBwiki, we haven't seen Ornes in Smash Run yet. They could be a part of Smash Run though, it's hard to make out the stage.
There's still hope!

I really hope it's from Smash Run, the stage looks promising, the only hazard that I saw was that enemy in the lower part of the stage after the Reset Bomb, I really hope this stage ends becoming legal because of Dark Pit's theme