Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Loota]

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer, but do you have a stream/youtube for your tournaments? I would really like to watch them!

Oh yeah, I forgot to reply to you earlier completely, sorry about that. We don't usually stream but Trifroze uploads some of our bracket sets to his channel, he's actually just starting to upload sets from our last tournament. I'm not sure how much the FLSS shows in the vids but at least my matches usually have some of the more uncommon stages played on game 1 too.

Do I really have to reiterate that shiek kills you at 10% for free on PS2's air phase off a grab every page or so? That stage is dead, stop advocating for it.

Trust me, I've read this thread thoroughly but at least I'm not still convinced it's as simple as that. May I ask if you have something to say on the part I wrote earlier (quoted below)? I'm mainly interested in it because I believe Halberd and Kongo have issues of the same caliber, and thus I'm still undecided on which stage is the worst of the bunch.

Also, isn't it incredibly easy to avoid grabs on PS2's wind transformation, making the discussed Sheik's zero to death somewhat irrelevant? You can easily spend majority of the transformation up in the air, refreshing your jumps on the stage or ledges 2-3 times without worrying too much of getting grabbed. You can also take some damage (if you don't have enough already) by other means to avoid the % it works in and then just proceed normally. Of course, the wind transformation is problematic even without it but that's the thing that keeps popping up here which seems to single-handedly warrant a ban to most people.

 

[teluoborg]

First of all: I don't often see Miiverse banned in tournaments. You can often choose between BF and MV, but they count as the same stage.

Miiverse and Battlefield are really similar to each other. Also, there are more differences between Skyloft and Delfino Plaza than there are between Town & City and Smashville... The stages are just way too different to count as the same stage.

Also, another reason not to put Miiverse as a separate stage is that it will mess up the stage list for 3DS users.

If Miiverse could mess up with the stage list of 3DS users then why are we allowing delfino, castle siege, in fact every stage that isn't FD and BF ?

Why does everyone consider Omega Palutena's and Omega Final Destination to be the same stage? Because they aren't just similar, they are functionally identical. There is not a single matchup where the difference between Miiverse and Battlefield matters. Not one. It's like how we don't consider the 40 omega stages to all be the same.

I'll just give you 2 examples : Pacman and Rosalina. On Miiverse Pacman can't throw his fire hydrants on the main platform from above, bcause compared to BF the Miiverse platforms are much closer to one another with no space between them. It also stands for every character that has a stall then fall move (Bowser, Sheik, ZSS...). And the shape of the understage limits Rosa's options for recovery since she can't slide under the stage as much as under BF. So yeah you speak about how people should learn the stages instead of banning then, I'll throw that argument right back at you.

If Fox isn't the default character, then why is he the most popular in Melee tournament play? People are stupid, lazy, and likely to complain, and for some reason, when someone gets smacked by the Halberd lazer, our response is "Damn that's broken, ban plz" but when someone gets smacked by a shiek 0-death on Smashville, our response is "Git gud". It's easier to just play on a handful of stages. It takes effort to learn new stages, figure out tricks, and generally be good competitive players. It's far easier to ban Peach's Castle than learn the patterns of the bottom platforms and the blocks, and how to kill off the top effectively. And BF, SV, and FD are the most immediately "simple" stages with the least to complain about. They have no special placement within the game itself, they're just popular.

Yeah maybe there's a difference between getting combo'd by Sheik on SV, which is the result of the player taking advantage of both his character and the layout of the stage, and getting targetted by the laser on Halberd which was decided by complete luck. You tell me. Maybe the reason people play Fox in Melee is the same that make people pick SV in Smash 4 : because it helps them win. Maybe winning isn't a good reason for you to pick a character/stage and it's just popularity.

Do I really have to reiterate that shiek kills you at 10% for free on PS2's air phase off a grab every page or so? That stage is dead, stop advocating for it.

Oh so when Sheik can 0-death with a Fair chain on the walkoffs of Delfino/Castle Siege it's ok, but if she can 0-death on PS2 it's suddenly a bannable offense ? I guess that's because the walkoffs are only temporar-oh wait no that's just you having double standards.
If there's a reason to ban PS2 it's not that some characters can kill at ridiculous percents on it at some point, else we would have banned Halberd and Delfino a long time ago.

 

[Ghostbone]

If Miiverse could mess up with the stage list of 3DS users then why are we allowing delfino, castle siege, in fact every stage that isn't FD and BF ?

You misunderstood, miiverse is impossible to play on if a 3DS is connected to the wii.

I'll just give you 2 examples : Pacman and Rosalina. On Miiverse Pacman can't throw his fire hydrants on the main platform from above, bcause compared to BF the Miiverse platforms are much closer to one another with no space between them. It also stands for every character that has a stall then fall move (Bowser, Sheik, ZSS...). And the shape of the understage limits Rosa's options for recovery since she can't slide under the stage as much as under BF. So yeah you speak about how people should learn the stages instead of banning then, I'll throw that argument right back at you.

Explain how the underside is any different from omegas having different undersides, and how that specific pacman thing that doesn't matter is any different than the pixels higher ceilings some omegas have. Actually, lets talk about grass. Grass is far far more impactful than the pixel differences between the miiverse/battlefield platforms, it actually affects every matchup a little bit. We don't treat the grass omegas as different stages though.

So until you're arguing every omega should be counted as its own stage in stage selection, your miiverse arguments are meaningless.

Oh so when Sheik can 0-death with a Fair chain on the walkoffs of Delfino/Castle Siege it's ok, but if she can 0-death on PS2 it's suddenly a bannable offense ? I guess that's because the walkoffs are only temporar-oh wait no that's just you having double standards.
If there's a reason to ban PS2 it's not that some characters can kill at ridiculous percents on it at some point, else we would have banned Halberd and Delfino a long time ago.

You can DI out of fair chains, you can't DI out of most roof combos (which is why delfino/halberd/ps2 shouldn't be legal imo)

Also, Halberd and Delfino are getting banned these days lol

 

[Myed]

If Miiverse could mess up with the stage list of 3DS users then why are we allowing delfino, castle siege, in fact every stage that isn't FD and BF ?

Ansou is not referring to the 3ds smash competitive scene, but instead to the fact that you literally cannot choose Miiverse when you use a 3ds as a controller on the Wii U version. This problem is unique to Miiverse and does not apply to 'any stage that isnt FD and BF'.

I'll just give you 2 examples : Pacman and Rosalina. On Miiverse Pacman can't throw his fire hydrants on the main platform from above, bcause compared to BF the Miiverse platforms are much closer to one another with no space between them. It also stands for every character that has a stall then fall move (Bowser, Sheik, ZSS...).

I'll give you two examples right back: Mushroom Kingdom U (and any other Omegas with grass) Omega and Garden of Hope (and anything else with flat walls) Omega.

The former(s) grass properties half the slide distance of dashing up-smashes, making it favorable against characters like Fox.

The latter(s) walls give a fifth of the cast a free jump refresh, enabling them to recover from distances they normally shouldn't have.

Do these things affect MUs? Yes. Do they affect them enough where the gameplay is different enough to warrant a separate slot? No.

And the shape of the understage limits Rosa's options for recovery since she can't slide under the stage as much as under BF. So yeah you speak about how people should learn the stages instead of banning then, I'll throw that argument right back at you.

There are so many different under-platform layouts of Omegas its not even funny.
Poke Stadium 2 Omega has a pillar protruding from the center that CAN be wall-jumped off of.
Gaur Plains Omega has a pillar protruding from the center that CANNOT be jumped off of.
Luigi's Mansion Omega (and similar) have a lip over the edge, preventing Villager from bowling balling wall-stickers.
Bridge of Eldin Omega has a thick lip with a sharp curve inwards.
Kalos Pokemon League has walls that CANNOT be wall-jumped off of, despite appearances.
Lylat Omega's Battlefield-like edges allow attacks to go through them, making it great for sharking.

Do these things affect MUs? Yes. Do they affect them enough where the gameplay is different enough to warrant a separate slot? No.

Miiverse is to Battlefield as Omegas are to FD. When you start making the argument that 'anything at all about a stage that can effect any possible matchup warrants its own slot, no matter how minor' (One of the examples you gave was VERY character-specific, and the other is shared by Omegas), you must realize that the arguement also applies to Omegas, and giving characters that benefit greatly from FD-like stages guaranteed pick of their best stage (Even if every stage was legal, Omegas would still take up half the list) is not something we want to encourage.

 

[Aquatics]

I like all of the legal stages. Since i live off of jank. Makes people salty including myslef. As a low high/mid level player its makes the game more fun. but more people like the CP's to be Lylat and DH. Deflino is god like rofl

 

[teluoborg]

You misunderstood, miiverse is impossible to play on if a 3DS is connected to the wii.

Oh ok my b then. I want no harm to the people who use a 3ds as a controller as it's the least annoying controller to deal with as a TO.

Explain how the underside is any different from omegas having different undersides, and how that specific pacman thing that doesn't matter is any different than the pixels higher ceilings some omegas have. Actually, lets talk about grass. Grass is far far more impactful than the pixel differences between the miiverse/battlefield platforms, it actually affects every matchup a little bit. We don't treat the grass omegas as different stages though.

So until you're arguing every omega should be counted as its own stage in stage selection, your miiverse arguments are meaningless.

Actually that's a point I wanted to address but I was saving it for later. A lot of the omega have slight variations that can change the outcome of a game. I know one Mario player that specifically counterpicks Omega Skyloft so that he can stagespike people on the ledge with dash attack.
So yeah, we need to look further into all omegas and talk about it because even if it doesn't mean every omega should have its slot in the list (everything but that) some issues still need to be addressed.

You can DI out of fair chains, you can't DI out of most roof combos (which is why delfino/halberd/ps2 shouldn't be legal imo)

Also, Halberd and Delfino are getting banned these days lol

You can't really DI out of Fair chains at low percents, and even you're at mid percents and manage to DI out of it then it's just a free bouncing fish for Sheik.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Especially considering that I made all of these stage threads more or less for the express purpose of people being able to learn about stages without having to put in the legwork themselves. (Granted I don't actually cover blast zone sizes for most of them, but others including yourself have taken up the slack there too. So there's really no excuse.)

Wait, the update took the Collapse tag away? ugh.



btw, I realized how pointless is to push stage legality.
People and TOs will remain lazy and ignorant and just do whatever.
We either need to give up and drift down the stream, make our own events not caring for others', or do a massive exposure work that surpasses ZeRo's.

 

[IvanQuote]

Well Duck Hunt is now available for 3DS, giving another stage to that version of the game. For the Wii U version, Pirate Ship is back, but given what I skimmed for its ban in Brawl (water camping, powerful stage hazards), I don't see it being put in tournaments.

Mario Maker has the random factor, so that's probably gone in tournament setting as well.

 

[Tinkerer]

It's too bad you can't pick which version of Mario Maker you're going to get, because some are pretty viable and fair (and, unlike Gamer, have no hazards).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Well Duck Hunt is now available for 3DS, giving another stage to that version of the game. For the Wii U version, Pirate Ship is back, but given what I skimmed for its ban in Brawl (water camping, powerful stage hazards), I don't see it being put in tournaments.

Mario Maker has the random factor, so that's probably gone in tournament setting as well.

I did some quick Pirate Ship testing; it's actually substantially better than it was in Brawl. The bombs now do completely fixed knockback; even at 999%, they don't kill. The catapult's knockback seems tweaked too; it no longer kills a non-DIing Jigglypuff. The general game dynamics make the idea of stalling in the water pretty silly in this game, but I was able to confirm that Mr. Game & Watch can still do the rudder stalling exploit (it's extremely blatant stalling though so would be assumed banned at any tournament with any kind of a no stalling rule). I wasn't able to clip into the rock when the boat crashed into it as I recall doing in Brawl, but I only tried on one landing attempt so maybe I need to find a different spot (the left blastzone when it crashes seems closer). This may be placebo, but the stage seems a little bit smaller this time too which is good since that stage was kinda too big before. At the very least, with Rosalina I was able to dash off the face of the King of Red Lions and snap right to the boat's ledge. The ceiling, at early testing, seems to be at an appropriate height to avoid people living forever from the boat but yet not die instantly from that top platform.

Most people don't seem to have an appetite for giving stages a chance, but I'm struggling to see any reason Pirate Ship should be banned in this game. It just needs to be given a chance, and it should end up legal. Then again, I could say the same thing about Peach's Castle, and that was definitely not given a chance by very many people.

Mario Maker is super interesting. It will take a lot of time to map out all of what it can really do, but my early impressions are that it's almost always if not always a reasonable stage just one that randomly decides which characters it favors. I struggle to see what's ban-worthy about that (counterpick it at your own peril), but there's no way we can say with any confidence at this point all of the forms that stage might take. I saw a few that clearly had very strong camping positions (but nothing exceptionally egregious); who knows how bad the worst possible form are?

 

[Xeze]

Most people don't seem to have an appetite for giving stages a chance, but I'm struggling to see any reason Pirate Ship should be banned in this game.

Lack of a proper bottom blastzone (on phase 1) because of water is arguably the main reason why it won't be allowed.

 

[Ghostbone]

Literally first time i picked Mario Maker, got one with a massive pit of lava in the middle and two areas about 1 1/2 bowsers big surrounding it.

Completely awful, impossible to approach properly, not at all conducive to competitive gameplay.


Nobody's going to sit in tournament restarting the stage 5 times to get one that isn't stupid. And where do you draw the line? It's an easily banned stage, I'd rather talk about gamer lmao.

Edit: 2nd time got walk-offs, wow so competitive
3rd Time I got something like distant planet except with no bottom blastzone (lava in the way), worst one yet.

 

[Tinkerer]

Yeah, I don't see it happening. There is actually quite a few good competitive variations of it with a central platform and interesting ledge layout, but no-one is going to sit through a random selection of stages to get to that.

Also, with regards to Pirate Ship: The main problems here are still the water (i.e. no real lower blastzone at all). It'd be on par with something like Halberd with its easy to dodge hitboxes otherwise, but considering Halberd is slowly getting banned in places I don't see Pirate Ship happening at all.

Oh well, at least it has a gorgeous Omega.

 

[Ulevo]

Covering the lower blast zone with water is not a conducive reason to ban Pirate Ship. This stage deserves to be properly investigated. I will be checking out the blast zone details and other information soon, as I am sure ParanoidDrone would be.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Covering the lower blast zone with water is not a conducive reason to ban Pirate Ship. This stage deserves to be properly investigated. I will be checking out the blast zone details and other information soon, as I am sure ParanoidDrone would be.

You would be correct. I have work, yay adulthood, but this evening I'll do my usual investigation.

What would really help me is a ballpark idea of how many forms Mario Maker can throw at you. Anyone know yet?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

On Pirate Ship, the main concern is: if we consider PS2's wind form a bannable offense, what about when the stage gets carried off by the tornado? Aren't the same dynamics at play there? I don't have the stage yet to confirm, but that's the main thing I would check for.

 

[Ulevo]

There are a lot more concerns then that. Water camping, the catapult and the bombs that kill you and deal 35% per hit. To be honest I do not think the stage is legal.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Well, according to AA's post above both the bombs and the catapult were significantly nerfed from their appearance in Brawl, which is sort of what I was going by.

 

[Ulevo]

Well, according to AA's post above both the bombs and the catapult were significantly nerfed from their appearance in Brawl, which is sort of what I was going by.

After toying with them, I still see them being a problem. 35% on a hitbox that large that you, much of the time, will not see coming is not okay. I do not know how well it kills, but the damage alone is silly. And the catapult will practically kill you with proper DI at 0%. I would imagine that it would not take much % to make it kill.

 

[Tinkerer]

There are a lot more concerns then that. Water camping, the catapult and the bombs that kill you and deal 35% per hit. To be honest I do not think the stage is legal.

I did some quick Pirate Ship testing; it's actually substantially better than it was in Brawl. The bombs now do completely fixed knockback; even at 999%, they don't kill. The catapult's knockback seems tweaked too; it no longer kills a non-DIing Jigglypuff.

Depending on how strong the catapult still is, the hitboxes, at least, might not be a problem. The water camping and the front of the boat killing definitely is a thing, though, because it significantly harms any character without a spike. Like, can Little Mac even reach the edge by jumping? Looking forward to a more in-depth investigation.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, can we...not make assumptions about when the bombs and catapult kill? That's sort of the point of me doing the research, so we can have actual data instead of guessing.

 

[Ghostbone]

With pirate ship, rudder camping is even worse to deal with in this game because you don't take hoop damage there, so the person can't just wait till the stage hits the rock/flies up and you're at 150%.
Ampharos, you say it's obviously stalling, so is circle camping, we don't just legalize temple and expect every station to have a ref calling out people on circle camping, And what's the difference between sitting under the rudder or timing out a character with worse mobility than you? Stalling in itself shouldn't be banned, we should just ban any stages that enable degenerate stalling. Also, water camping is a thing, and if you're a character that has crappy aerials/off-stage game, idk how you're ever going to hit a ness in the water who can spam up-air/up-b. (inb4, stages exist to give different characters an advantage, well you can just only pick characters that can rudder camp too, makes that strategy pretty terrible when one player pushes the other into the boat, it's the same argument)

Also with the bombs, even if they don't kill, their movement in the background doesn't seem to give you an accurate enough perception of where they will actually hit, and at 35% per hit that's absolutely ridiculous. While the stage does have a portion that's like the wind part of PS2, it's for way too short of a time for it to likely lead to degenerate roof combos so it's not really an issue tbh.

I think it's pretty obvious pirate ship isn't conducive to competitive play and will never be legal.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Hey everyone. My school's Smash 4 ruleset has a stage selection I have a problem with.

Starters are: BF, FD, SV, Miiverse, and Dreamland 64.

Counterpicks are: Duck Hunt, Lylat, and T&C.

Now, I really enjoy some of those counterpicks, and don't really like a lot of the starters, especially BF and Miiverse, which are basically the same stage. How can I convince them to at least swap out Miiverse with something else? Honestly, I've gotten so desperate I'll take that as a small victory.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Have them swap it out with T&C. Nearly every 5-stage ruleset ever runs T&C as a starter. Just ask them to treat Miiverse AS BF. If they have any rules regarding treating Omegas as FD, the rules for Miiverse should follow suit.

 

[MattTheGameFreak]

I've never posted on this thread before, but I do believe that the Super Mario Maker stage could be indeed tournament viable as a counter-pick stage. I do have a huge concern with it though, which I'll get to soon. I've played the map many times over and with the exception of walk-off variations which appear seldom, most of the stages are what you would expect to see in tournament play. With the seldom appearances of walk-off variations, it's not a big deal to restart the match when one appears since the game loads pretty fast.

I must declare caution, however, that if this stage is allowed, it will be counter-picked to favor characters with powerful vertical KO moves, because I do not know if anyone else has noticed this yet, but while the spawn points may start up high, the KO ceiling is much lower than either of the Animal Crossing stages.... Vertical moves on this stage are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to be hit by, even under 90% damage...

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yeah, my first match on Mario Maker gave me an uncomfortably big stage with walkoffs. Hate to say it, but unless we can manipulate the stage itself to give a consistent result, I don't see this happening.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hey everyone. My school's Smash 4 ruleset has a stage selection I have a problem with.

Starters are: BF, FD, SV, Miiverse, and Dreamland 64.

Counterpicks are: Duck Hunt, Lylat, and T&C.

Now, I really enjoy some of those counterpicks, and don't really like a lot of the starters, especially BF and Miiverse, which are basically the same stage. How can I convince them to at least swap out Miiverse with something else? Honestly, I've gotten so desperate I'll take that as a small victory.

Ask the TO how they plan to strike vs. a character that really likes Battlefield's triangle layout. With 3/5 of the starter list shaped like that, it's completely impossible to avoid unless both players dislike it. So juggle happy characters like ZSS, Rosalina, etc. are advantaged in game 1.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Ask the TO how they plan to strike vs. a character that really likes Battlefield's triangle layout. With 3/5 of the starter list shaped like that, it's completely impossible to avoid unless both players dislike it. So juggle happy characters like ZSS, Rosalina, etc. are advantaged in game 1.

I'll try talking to the guy in charge and see what I can do. For now, since we have a ranking ladder and not a tourney per say, I'll just try and convince opponents to switch T&C or Lylat for Miiverse. Thanks guys.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pirate Ship looks amazing if people take the time to learn it. So it will banned because nobody will even bother.

"Water Camping" is a bad argument, it isn't even good if you know how to approach.
"Rudder Stalling" can easily be banned. It's not even Circle Camping, it's just staying in place.
"Lowe blaszone" is still there, technically. What's wrong with having water now that most recoveries are amazing? If anything, it's a way to slow down lower recoveries and buff terrible ones. AND IS NOT A BAD THING TO BE DIFFERENT.

 

[Tito Maas]

tbh it seems a little pointless to even be discussing these two stages. We know they won't be legal anywhere

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Literally first time i picked Mario Maker, got one with a massive pit of lava in the middle and two areas about 1 1/2 bowsers big surrounding it.

Completely awful, impossible to approach properly, not at all conducive to competitive gameplay.


Nobody's going to sit in tournament restarting the stage 5 times to get one that isn't stupid. And where do you draw the line? It's an easily banned stage, I'd rather talk about gamer lmao.

Edit: 2nd time got walk-offs, wow so competitive
3rd Time I got something like distant planet except with no bottom blastzone (lava in the way), worst one yet.

I picked it like 10 times and got a lot of flat + plat variations. I didn't even know it could make lava or walk-offs. Those things definitely dim the prospects for that stage.

---

To be very clear about Pirate Ship's hazards and what I saw...

The catapult does no damage and still always puts you past the left edge of the camera range, but now it never kills a non-DIing character as far as I can tell. Jigglypuff tended to die if not DIing properly in Brawl so this is a change (I was sure to check her since if she can take it everyone can). It should be noted that the catapult comes out an awful lot in this game; it's not very dangerous, but it's something you'll very routinely have to consider.

Hitting the bow of the ship does 20% and is virtually instant death. You should never actually do this.

The bombs do 35% (I wasn't able to see the 55% hit from Brawl, but my sample size was small so I could have just missed it). Bombs only come when the tower appears in the background, and it only fires a few times when it does (often wasting a shot by shooting into the water). The knockback is 100% fixed now; it doesn't kill a victim at any percent whatsoever (tested at 999%) wheras it definitely did kill and kinda early too in Brawl. Overall, I feel these are less dangerous and obstructive than Halberd's laser and bombs in the way they hit.

Rudder stalling felt ever so slightly harder to set up but not significantly so. I only tried with Mr. Game & Watch; it likely works with other plunging dairs but his is the one I was most comfortable using so it made sense to test with (a very wide character like Bowser might have a much harder time doing it, do note). What you do is SH out of the water, dair instantly with a plunging dair, and hit left very carefully to jam yourself under the rudder. If you hit just the right spot, you can let go of the controller and will just be swimming up almost forever (only interrupted by the tornado sweeping the ship into the sky or by the ship crashing into the rock). If you slightly miss the spot you can sometimes wiggle back and forth as the ship rocks to correct. If you miss significantly to the left, you'll hit the ship's hitbox and die instantly (missing to the right results in surfacing). I would consider this discretely bannable outside of the stage since there's almost zero subjectivity here. You're doing a drastic action to just sit somewhere super far outside of the field of play.

Of course, this was testing for about a half an hour by myself right after the patch hit. Stages need more time than that, but there's nothing at first blush that shows itself instantly ban-worthy about Pirate Ship. I just think the best approach is to actually give it a good shot and see how it plays out.

 

[dav3yb]

do we know if the mario maker stages cycle in any form? if they do, we could pick the few good ones and just reset until it hits the one someone wants.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What I'm most interested in is whether Mario Maker has a finite list of premade forms it can pick from or if it's truly randomized.

 

[teluoborg]

What would really help me is a ballpark idea of how many forms Mario Maker can throw at you. Anyone know yet?

The game says 995. That's not a typo.



And about Pirate ship, hum...

Spoiler: good ol' times

The stage is a good mix between the things everyone hates in PS2, Onett and Halberd. I won't say anything about its legality and just watch how you guys manage to make it look appealing.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Pirate Ship's cannonball bomb are incapable of hitting you if you're on the second tier of the mast, even if the bombs impacts right below you on the center of the ship. That gives a good idea spatially on how far you need to be from the bomb to avoid damage.

There's also a full two seconds between fire and impact, giving you plenty of time to give the bomb a wide berth if you don't want to chance it.

 

[Tinkerer]

"Lowe blaszone" is still there, technically. What's wrong with having water now that most recoveries are amazing? If anything, it's a way to slow down lower recoveries and buff terrible ones. AND IS NOT A BAD THING TO BE DIFFERENT.

This is kind of awful, though. It just means that there's characters without meteors which just can't kill through the bottom. You take out every kind of gimping, and that's pretty ridiculous. It may not be a bad thing to be different, but it's the same reason walkoffs are banned - it takes out an entire aspect (edgeplay) of the game, making it less interesting as a result.

Also, so many of these Mario Maker variations are so good, guys - but sadly, there's no way of saving them. It might end up having the same problems as custom stages do, just too much effort.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's not the reason, AT ALL, why walkoff stages are banned.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

After looking at Mario Maker for a while, I'm inclined to agree that it has a lot of really cool looking forms, but others are...eh, not so much. I'll start work on the research thread after I post this, it should be up within the hour.

EDIT: I'll also be doing Pirate Ship, although I'm not sure if I'll have time to do it tonight.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Mario Maker, as it turns out, yeah it has some great forms. My favorite was a sloped flat + plat without hazards or walkoffs. But it's always a gamble. If there was a way we could force it to load the good forms it'd be an obvious CP but as of now, meh.

Pirate Ship, meanwhile, I'm really happy to have back. Even if it has no songs that aren't in other stages. Not only because now the number of characters and stages perfectly match if you count Miis once, so I can assign everyone a home stage a la Melee All Star mode :D but also because constant water is unseen in our stages and this stage looks much better than its Brawl form. I'm keeping it in my rotation for a while, much longer than Mario Maker.

 

[teluoborg]

Mario Maker is pretty much heaven or hell. This is my new favorite stage and even though it will never be tournament legal I feel it has potential for very interesting side events so time to start lobbying.