Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[MrGame&Rock]

Japan's Smash 64 Ruleset had ONE legal stage, this does not surprise me. But it's something we should never stoop to. We need our Lylats and T&Cs and Kongos and Delfinos and Wuhus and Duck Hunts

 

[Ansou]

What do you think about the Japanese stagelist? (Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Omegas)
I personally don't like it at all, it's way too conservative. But I've read that some people would like to adopt it. I hope that won't happen. Smashville 24/7, no please.

I'll just say that I would get tired very quickly of playing the same stages all the time and it could make me quit playing the game competitively.

 

[Routa]

I'll just that I would get tired very quickly of playing the same stages all the time and it could make me quit playing the game competitively.

*looks at Starter/Counterpick system and Smashville*

 

[teluoborg]

Your categories are completely arbitrary and ignore the important issues. Kunai tried to do the same thing, except he was claiming that FD, SV, and BF were somehow objective categories, and that any combination of 5 starters broke up that symmetry. It was a bad argument when he did it, and it's a bad argument now, too. See, here's the thing. The superficial things? They don't matter. Delfino is one of ZSS's best stages, while Wuhu is one of her worst, and yet they both have walkoffs, pass-through platforms, and travel. Those factors don't tend to be the real important ones, though. No, what matters is that Delfino is small with high platforms and very low ceilings at times, allowing for super-aggressive juggling and early kills off the top, while Wuhu is large, wide, campy, and has some odd topology.

Newsflash : Delfino is one of the three legal stages with the lowest ceiling.
If you don't want to play with a low ceiling you need to strike 3 stages.
See just because one stage fits into one category doesn't mean it can't fit in another.
Wuhu is a traveling stage, but most of its transformations are very similar to FD with a long single platform and very few walkoffs. Does that make it not a traveling stage ? Does that mean you can't take advantage of the pass-through platform ? See, here's the thing : there are no superficial things, every aspect of a stage matters and every stage can be picked because of one aspect (or multiple aspects). You're saying that what matters in Delfino is the low ceiling, I say that everything matters, the ceiling, the walkoffs, the main platform and even the water. Unidimensional viewpoints won't get you anywhere.

I'll answer the rest of the post when I have more time.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Newsflash : Delfino is one of the three legal stages with the lowest ceiling.
If you don't want to play with a low ceiling you need to strike 3 stages.
See just because one stage fits into one category doesn't mean it can't fit in another.
Wuhu is a traveling stage, but most of its transformations are very similar to FD with a long single platform and very few walkoffs. Does that make it not a traveling stage ? Does that mean you can't take advantage of the pass-through platform ? See, here's the thing : there are no superficial things, every aspect of a stage matters and every stage can be picked because of one aspect (or multiple aspects). You're saying that what matters in Delfino is the low ceiling, I say that everything matters, the ceiling, the walkoffs, the main platform and even the water. Unidimensional viewpoints won't get you anywhere.

I'll answer the rest of the post when I have more time.

I don't think I made myself clear very well. (In fact, that post was really poorly-written, my bad.) What I should have said was "what matters for ZSS is...". WFT loves pass-through stages, and that's an important quality... For that character, in certain matchups. I'm not saying that any individual quality makes any particular stage categorizable. That's the whole point. The categories are arbitrary. All of them. The only quality that matters is "how does this stage perform in matchup XvY". And that's made up of all the qualities, all the things a stage brings to the table. Carving it up into qualities like you did not only is unhelpful, it completely misses the point of FLSS.

 

[teluoborg]

Alright,
correct me if I'm wrong but the point of FLSS is that the chosen stage doesn't advantage one player more than the other, right ? To get a perfectly even first game, yes or no ? How is trying to limit the redundancy of the strategic options "in matchup XvY" missing the point of FLSS ? Moreover, how can you consider the general consensus amongst stage liberalists that is "mindlessly shove every single viable stage (except miiverse lol) in the list and it'll somehow even itself out" to be better ?
You guys go on about how there should be more stage diversity but refuse to put some thought into it past "this stage is/isn't viable" and then you get shocked when some people prefer the simplicity of gentlemaning into SV. At this point FLSS is a mess and the people promoting it are not doing anything to make it more appealing.

And yes, those categories are arbitrary, why are you making it sound like it's a bad thing ? Have you forgotten how many functionnal rules are arbitrary in competitive smash ?

 

[epicnights]

I'm not exactly sure if this would be too helpful, but there's a monthly happening in South Florida on October 10th, and the theme is going to be non-legal stages. What's important about this, however, is the stagelist that is offered:

Rules:
TWO stock, 8 Minutes, Items set to off
Custom Moves are not allowed
Best of 3, Finals Best of 5
2 bans, neutral stages cannot be chosen as a counterpick.

Starters

• Kongo Jungle 64
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Suzaku Castle

Counterpicks

• Gamer
• Garden of Hope
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Mario Circuit (Smash 4)
• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Port Town Aero Dive
• Pyrosphere
• Skyworld
• Skyloft
• Wily Castle
• Windy Hill Zone
• Wuhu Island

I have bolded the stages that I have seen frequently discussed on this thread. It will be streamed by VS Gaming Center, and I think that it could provide some valuable insight on how they behave in a competitive environment. In addition, I have bolded the more interesting rules regarding the amount of bans and the inability to choose starter stages as a counterpick. Any opinions on these? The facebook page for the event is here.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Alright,
correct me if I'm wrong but the point of FLSS is that the chosen stage doesn't advantage one player more than the other, right ? To get a perfectly even first game, yes or no ? How is trying to limit the redundancy of the strategic options "in matchup XvY" missing the point of FLSS ?

Because the redundancy of the strategic options is a big deal.

Imagine if there were 5 stages that were entirely flat, with no platforms and only mild differences (maybe one had some hazards, maybe one had a platform that appeared every minute for around five seconds, something like that). You cannot tell me that Little Mac didn't just suddenly become a better character. It's baked into the very concept of striking and banning that if an element or certain configuration of elements is common, you're going to have a harder time getting rid of it in the stagelist. And that's okay. Think about it - what if we decided that solid stages with cornered ledges gave too much of an advantage to Pikachu, whose stagestikes are fairly amazing? It's not any more arbitrary than any of your categories. How in the world is having something like 6 stages like that not a redundancy in strategic options? It's only if you arbitrarily decide that that's not a redundancy.

Seriously, how do we make these categories any sort of objective? You can't. What matters is how good a stage is for any given metric. So... how do we judge that? Relative to...? We can't. There is no objective "most fair stage", as it necessarily is dependent on the matchup. It necessarily falls on a spectrum. I'll go so far as to say that the "most fair stage" in a matchup can basically be defined as "optimal FLSS" in a matchup.

Moreover, how can you consider the general consensus amongst stage liberalists that is "mindlessly shove every single viable stage (except miiverse lol) in the list and it'll somehow even itself out" to be better ?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

You guys go on about how there should be more stage diversity but refuse to put some thought into it past "this stage is/isn't viable" and then you get shocked when some people prefer the simplicity of gentlemaning into SV. At this point FLSS is a mess and the people promoting it are not doing anything to make it more appealing.

It's a sad fact that "Smashville is the most fair stage" has wormed its way into the collective conscious, to the point where most people will stage agree to SV even if they should strike it almost immediately. There's not really any making FLSS "sexy", either, not without making people figure out that taking Shiek to SV is a terrible idea. It takes longer, and the difference may not be immediately visible. But the problem with FLSS is not the process. It's the playerbase.

And yes, those categories are arbitrary, why are you making it sound like it's a bad thing ?

Because it's completely unnecessary and there's no way to determine whether any given category should be respected or not. It's perhaps worth noting that your "categories" skew very hard in favor of the typical flat+plat stages, and separate out all manner of things that designate all the other stages. Why is that? It's almost as though your personal bias in favor of SV, BF, and FD is helping you determine that those stages are "default" and shouldn't be categorized like that. Just sayin'.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not exactly sure if this would be too helpful, but there's a monthly happening in South Florida on October 10th, and the theme is going to be non-legal stages. What's important about this, however, is the stagelist that is offered:

Rules:
TWO stock, 8 Minutes, Items set to off
Custom Moves are not allowed
Best of 3, Finals Best of 5
2 bans, neutral stages cannot be chosen as a counterpick.

Starters

• Kongo Jungle 64
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Suzaku Castle

Counterpicks

• Gamer
• Garden of Hope
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Mario Circuit (Smash 4)
• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Port Town Aero Dive
• Pyrosphere
• Skyworld
• Skyloft
• Wily Castle
• Windy Hill Zone
• Wuhu Island

I have bolded the stages that I have seen frequently discussed on this thread. It will be streamed by VS Gaming Center, and I think that it could provide some valuable insight on how they behave in a competitive environment. In addition, I have bolded the more interesting rules regarding the amount of bans and the inability to choose starter stages as a counterpick. Any opinions on these? The facebook page for the event is here.

It figures I'll be out of town for a wedding that day, I'd love to watch it on stream.

I do find it extremely ironic that a tournament designed with the express purpose of playing on not-normally-legal stages is still insisting on a starter/counterpick separation.

If the attendees need a refresher on the stages, don't forget to point them at my threads. They're in the Academy subforum.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Anyone think Palutena's Temple Omega will become the new Final Destination? It's already a thing in Kentucky.

 

[teluoborg]

Because the redundancy of the strategic options is a big deal.

Imagine if there were 5 stages that were entirely flat, with no platforms and only mild differences (maybe one had some hazards, maybe one had a platform that appeared every minute for around five seconds, something like that). You cannot tell me that Little Mac didn't just suddenly become a better character. It's baked into the very concept of striking and banning that if an element or certain configuration of elements is common, you're going to have a harder time getting rid of it in the stagelist. And that's okay. Think about it - what if we decided that solid stages with cornered ledges gave too much of an advantage to Pikachu, whose stagestikes are fairly amazing? It's not any more arbitrary than any of your categories. How in the world is having something like 6 stages like that not a redundancy in strategic options? It's only if you arbitrarily decide that that's not a redundancy.

If all that is true then why does everyone and their little brother ban Miiverse ? Checkmate.
As long as people who want the three traveling stages are the same that autoban miiverse then this whole "if it's there then deal with it" argument is just hypocrisy.
Also if you have to modify your stage list because you're unable to tech then you need to reconsider your priorities.

Seriously, how do we make these categories any sort of objective? You can't. What matters is how good a stage is for any given metric. So... how do we judge that? Relative to...? We can't. There is no objective "most fair stage", as it necessarily is dependent on the matchup. It necessarily falls on a spectrum. I'll go so far as to say that the "most fair stage" in a matchup can basically be defined as "optimal FLSS" in a matchup.

So because you find it hard to do no one should try ? Nice mentality.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

See the Miiverse paradox refered above.

It's a sad fact that "Smashville is the most fair stage" has wormed its way into the collective conscious, to the point where most people will stage agree to SV even if they should strike it almost immediately. There's not really any making FLSS "sexy", either, not without making people figure out that taking Shiek to SV is a terrible idea. It takes longer, and the difference may not be immediately visible. But the problem with FLSS is not the process. It's the playerbase.

Oh so it's the player's fault if they choose to go on a stage they know in and out in order to focus on their opponent instead of choosing a stage you deem to be better in a matchup even if they might not be comfortable on it. Yes the problem is completely with the playerbase since they are not supposed to have personal preference. I mean while we're at it, why do they keep picking their main in a disadvantageous matchup instead of picking Sheik ? Effin playerbase, man.

Because it's completely unnecessary and there's no way to determine whether any given category should be respected or not. It's perhaps worth noting that your "categories" skew very hard in favor of the typical flat+plat stages, and separate out all manner of things that designate all the other stages. Why is that? It's almost as though your personal bias in favor of SV, BF, and FD is helping you determine that those stages are "default" and shouldn't be categorized like that. Just sayin'.

Since I'm biased I'm going to need your help on this : if BF/SV/FD aren't default stages, then why are they the only ones to be common in all the stage lists around the world ?
(minus jank city ofc, and about that E epicnights can you please post the videos in this thread after the tournament is over, and if possible keep track of what stages were picked in the sets ? This data could be very very interesting to analyze.)

 

[Illuminose]

the japanese stage list is battlefield/fd and omegas/smashville/lylat/town

let's stop pretending it's that much different than our list

 

[Xeze]

the japanese stage list is battlefield/fd and omegas/smashville/lylat/town

let's stop pretending it's that much different than our list

iirc that was the stagelist used for their last tournament, probably because they had international guests there (Nairo, Ally, Vinnie). Maybe they wanted to use a list similar to the ones used in the USA, idk. I know that in most japanese tournaments their stagelist is BF, FD+omegas, Smashville.

 

[Illuminose]

iirc that was the stagelist used for their last tournament, probably because they had international guests there (Nairo, Ally, Vinnie). Maybe they wanted to use a list similar to the ones used in the USA, idk. I know that in most japanese tournaments their stagelist is BF, FD+omegas, Smashville.

no they added town and lylat at the last tournament

 

[Xeze]

no they added town and lylat at the last tournament

Oh alright, good to know. Much better than just having the three stages.

 

[Ghostbone]

If all that is true then why does everyone and their little brother ban Miiverse ? Checkmate.

Miiverse is literally battlefield. (inb4 the platforms are one pixel longer and the bottom is different). And I've never seen it banned, it's always just an alternate counter-pick to battlefield if that isn't banned.

Same reason why we don't have like 40 different FDs treated as individual stages

 

[Myed]

If all that is true then why does everyone and their little brother ban Miiverse ? Checkmate.
As long as people who want the three traveling stages are the same that autoban miiverse then this whole "if it's there then deal with it" argument is just hypocrisy.
Also if you have to modify your stage list because you're unable to tech then you need to reconsider your priorities.

Miiverse is, for all intensive purposes, a reskin of Battlefield. There are slight differences between the two, but they are minor enough not to affect the gameplay any more than the different Omegas do. If youre have reasons why Miiverse has more definitive changes to gameplay than at the very least Omegas, let alone the transforming stages, I'd love to hear them.

In comparison, the three travelling stages have massive differences between them.

Wuhu is much more horizontally large than the other two, and is typically flat in platform and transformation.

Delfino is much more vertically tall/horizontally short than the other two, with opportunities for early kills while transforming.

Skyloft discourages meteor kills, has the least % of 'campy' transformations (may need the list double-checked, see below), no water, and has its platforms a nice mix between the other two.

Spoiler: 'Campy' Transformation %s

Skyloft transformations with significant stalling potential (5/11):

Knight Academy
Windmill
Residential District
Small Island
Waterfall Island

Delfino transformations with significant stalling potential (5/9):

Docks
Pillars
Umbrellas
Rooftop
Shine Gate

Wuhu transformations with significant stalling potential (5/9):

Beach
Rocks
Volcano
Bridge
Fountain

They arent alike at all besides 'transforming', and have their own clear and separate niches.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Anyone think Palutena's Temple Omega will become the new Final Destination? It's already a thing in Kentucky.

Every time a game goes to Final Destination I request for that particular omega if only I personally find vanilla FD to be distracting on my eyes and it's a nice substitute.

 

[Ansou]

If all that is true then why does everyone and their little brother ban Miiverse ? Checkmate.
As long as people who want the three traveling stages are the same that autoban miiverse then this whole "if it's there then deal with it" argument is just hypocrisy.

First of all: I don't often see Miiverse banned in tournaments. You can often choose between BF and MV, but they count as the same stage.

Miiverse and Battlefield are really similar to each other. Also, there are more differences between Skyloft and Delfino Plaza than there are between Town & City and Smashville... The stages are just way too different to count as the same stage.

Also, another reason not to put Miiverse as a separate stage is that it will mess up the stage list for 3DS users.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If all that is true then why does everyone and their little brother ban Miiverse ? Checkmate.

Why does everyone consider Omega Palutena's and Omega Final Destination to be the same stage? Because they aren't just similar, they are functionally identical. There is not a single matchup where the difference between Miiverse and Battlefield matters. Not one. It's like how we don't consider the 40 omega stages to all be the same.

There's a difference between one element being redundant and others being unique (there are multiple flat+plat stages, but they all act very differently) and a stage being a reskin.

Also if you have to modify your stage list because you're unable to tech then you need to reconsider your priorities.

Dude, even the top players die to Pika bair offstage. It's legitimately hard to tech, and a 50-50 because if you think you have to tech and he fastfalls, you airdodge to your death with fastfallers.

Oh so it's the player's fault if they choose to go on a stage they know in and out in order to focus on their opponent instead of choosing a stage you deem to be better in a matchup even if they might not be comfortable on it.

...Yeah, actually, it is. If you're using ZSS and you counterpick a Shiek to SV, you are objectively wrong. You might like that stage the most, but that preference is holding you back as a player, and the sooner you adapt and start taking her to places like Dreamland or Delfino, the better off you will be. In this particular moment, sure, counterpick the stage you know. But learn the other stages. Not knowing how to counterpick well is a fairly significant detriment in this game, and I honestly can't believe that that would be a controversial statement.

Since I'm biased I'm going to need your help on this : if BF/SV/FD aren't default stages, then why are they the only ones to be common in all the stage lists around the world ?

If Fox isn't the default character, then why is he the most popular in Melee tournament play? People are stupid, lazy, and likely to complain, and for some reason, when someone gets smacked by the Halberd lazer, our response is "Damn that's broken, ban plz" but when someone gets smacked by a shiek 0-death on Smashville, our response is "Git gud". It's easier to just play on a handful of stages. It takes effort to learn new stages, figure out tricks, and generally be good competitive players. It's far easier to ban Peach's Castle than learn the patterns of the bottom platforms and the blocks, and how to kill off the top effectively. And BF, SV, and FD are the most immediately "simple" stages with the least to complain about. They have no special placement within the game itself, they're just popular.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Every time a game goes to Final Destination I request for that particular omega if only I personally find vanilla FD to be distracting on my eyes and it's a nice substitute.

Alot of people go there just because of that reason

 

[Loota]

Seems like the 13 stage FLSS I use in Finland was brought up on the last page. The reason we haven't yet implemented Dream Land into it is because I honestly have no idea how many people have it downloaded and I don't want to have 50% of the setups to have an incomplete stagelist. I'll probably try to get everyone to download it before the next tournament so that I will be able to include it.

I would've now asked which stage you think should be replaced but you guys went on ahead and started discussing it already, whee. It's a hard decision to make since I see several different candidates which have all something against their inclusion. Personally I'm considering it between Halberd, Kongo Jungle 64 and Pokémon Stadium 2 but can't really come to an definite conclusion. I'd appreciate some more opinions on the matter!

Also, isn't it incredibly easy to avoid grabs on PS2's wind transformation, making the discussed Sheik's zero to death somewhat irrelevant? You can easily spend majority of the transformation up in the air, refreshing your jumps on the stage or ledges 2-3 times without worrying too much of getting grabbed. You can also take some damage by other means to avoid the % it works in and then just proceed normally. Of course, the wind transformation is problematic even without it but that's the thing that keeps popping up here which seems to single-handedly warrant a ban to most people.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Why does everyone consider Omega Palutena's and Omega Final Destination to be the same stage? Because they aren't just similar, they are functionally identical. There is not a single matchup where the difference between Miiverse and Battlefield matters. Not one. It's like how we don't consider the 40 omega stages to all be the same.

There's a difference between one element being redundant and others being unique (there are multiple flat+plat stages, but they all act very differently) and a stage being a reskin.

I don't exactly want to be that guy, but I've heard from other (much better) ROB players that the slight difference in platform length and height negatively affects ROB's ability to use gyros on the stage. Granted, I don't think we should consider Miiverse separate from BF for that reason since that's just absurd, but it's a reason nonetheless.

And, yeah, I don't think I've seen a single ruleset that explicitly bans Miiverse, merely treating it as an alternate to BF for striking purposes (as they should). The only times I've seen people call for a Miiverse ban is because they don't understand the functionality of the Miiverse posts appearing in the background require an internet connection.

Loota To me, it would be safest to remove PS2 from the list. You'll probably find more people willing to play on Halberd or Kongo Jungle than that stage, although I admittedly don't know what the attitude towards "liberal" stages is like in the Finnish Smash scene. As far as making sure people have Dream Land, that shouldn't be a problem - the tournaments I go to locally runs Dream Land and everybody who brings a set-up has the stage downloaded. And if they want to practice, they'll likely download the stage anyways.

 

[Ansou]

Seems like the 13 stage FLSS I use in Finland was brought up on the last page. The reason we haven't yet implemented Dream Land into it is because I honestly have no idea how many people have it downloaded and I don't want to have 50% of the setups to have an incomplete stagelist. I'll probably try to get everyone to download it before the next tournament so that I will be able to include it.

I would've now asked which stage you think should be replaced but you guys went on ahead and started discussing it already, whee. It's a hard decision to make since I see several different candidates which have all something against their inclusion. Personally I'm considering it between Halberd, Kongo Jungle 64 and Pokémon Stadium 2 but can't really come to an definite conclusion. I'd appreciate some more opinions on the matter!

Also, isn't it incredibly easy to avoid grabs on PS2's wind transformation, making the discussed Sheik's zero to death somewhat irrelevant? You can easily spend majority of the transformation up in the air, refreshing your jumps on the stage or ledges 2-3 times without worrying too much of getting grabbed. You can also take some damage by other means to avoid the % it works in and then just proceed normally. Of course, the wind transformation is problematic even without it but that's the thing that keeps popping up here which seems to single-handedly warrant a ban to most people.

I have honestly not played that much on PS2 as it's not legal here and most people seem to have abandoned it, but jumping up into the air in the wind transformation feels like a dangerous thing to do as it puts you in a pretty bad position most of the time and makes you a floating target for things like Sheik's U-Air without her needing the grab. I'm kinda on the fence of if that should be enough to warrant a ban or not, but I still feel like PS2 is the best stage to take away to make the list of 13 stages. Still, I know that Kansas has PS2 legal but not Halberd on their 13 stage list... Kongo Jungle 64 should probably stay on the list regardless. Of course, one could argue that all of these stages deserve the spot on the list more than Dreamland 64 as they are more unique, but I'm really not gonna go there and I don't think it's very wise either.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer, but do you have a stream/youtube for your tournaments? I would really like to watch them!

 

[LiteralGrill]

So if you really want a big say in stage legality...

But seriously, I hope this becomes something people really consider. We can see if changes really need happening or not.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So if you really want a big say in stage legality...

But seriously, I hope this becomes something people really consider. We can see if changes really need happening or not.

This seems like a good idea for stages, but voting on Mii legality terrifies me. There should be no situation where people voted for your main to be illegal. If your tournament bans Miis or restricts them to 1111 or 1111/2222/3333 sets, you are a bad TO and should be reprimanded.

 

[Raijinken]

I have honestly not played that much on PS2 as it's not legal here and most people seem to have abandoned it, but jumping up into the air in the wind transformation feels like a dangerous thing to do as it puts you in a pretty bad position most of the time and makes you a floating target for things like Sheik's U-Air without her needing the grab. I'm kinda on the fence of if that should be enough to warrant a ban or not, but I still feel like PS2 is the best stage to take away to make the list of 13 stages. Still, I know that Kansas has PS2 legal but not Halberd on their 13 stage list... Kongo Jungle 64 should probably stay on the list regardless. Of course, one could argue that all of these stages deserve the spot on the list more than Dreamland 64 as they are more unique, but I'm really not gonna go there and I don't think it's very wise either.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer, but do you have a stream/youtube for your tournaments? I would really like to watch them!

In any conservative ruleset, Halberd should be banned before Delfino, Stadium 2, Skyloft, Kongo 64, or really, basically any "often or soemtimes legal" stage. It is literally the only legal stage with a hazard that will aim at a specific player.

I don't oppose Halberd, myself, but it's baffling to me that it's legal in places where Delfino isn't.

I love Stadium 2, personally. It's risky to jump during Wind, but that in turn makes it interesting. It's also in direct functional opposition to Ice, where it's rather risky to stay grounded due to the low traction. It's a very dynamic stage, but anyone who uses the "we have to fight the stage" reasoning against it (which is frankly the only criteria I see for directly banning stages for non-time-related reasons) hasn't played it since Brawl, or wasn't paying attention when they did.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do I really have to reiterate that shiek kills you at 10% for free on PS2's air phase off a grab every page or so? That stage is dead, stop advocating for it.

 

[Raijinken]

Do I really have to reiterate that shiek kills you at 10% for free on PS2's air phase off a grab every page or so? That stage is dead, stop advocating for it.

I apologize for not reading 28 pages of this for my first post in the thread.

Stage strikes exist for a reason.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I apologize for not reading 28 pages of this for my first post in the thread.

Stage strikes exist for a reason.

I just keep saying it. IMO this falls quite clearly under "degenerative behavior".

 

[Routa]

Banning 1 stage cause of "best character in game" can basically 0 to death you is... not very good reason (and yet Brinstar is banned in Melee cause it favours Ganondorf and Jiggly unlike PS which favours Fox and Falco lel). Many seem to forget that people ain't stupid. Also my opinion has changed from being "AMHG BAN BAN BAN!" into "This might bring some interesting counterplay" when it comes to any stage.

PS2 isn't as bad as I thought after all. Every part do bring nice new element into the game. As a stage PS2 favours characters with strong ground game. For example Little Mac is a character that I could see liking this stage (having only 1 good stage for Mac kinda sucks). Why? Little Mac might have the best ground game in game. He is able to get in and out quickly even when the floor is slippery (Ice), moving ground (electric) or gust of wind from down below (flying). The wind part aint as bad as people make it up to be. Don't jump... that is all. Anyways Loota I think one possibility could be using same kind of system with DL64 and BF that is being used with FD and Omegas. Ofc many people may whine about it, but I gotta say when you stat with DL64 and your next game is in BF... Well it kinda sucks. Ofc hard choices have to be made, but that is my opinion and I hope you make the right decision. I also did answer to our smash forums about the other 2 stages, but my my native language (which is finnish) is kinda... Crap when written. I am willing to discuss about more of the stages if you want... But maybe this ain't the best place talk about it... (or is it?).

 

[[Deuce]]

I'm still a proponent for KJ64 and Peach Castle 64.

Uneven platforms help reduce needle camping

 

[Ghostbone]

Banning 1 stage cause of "best character in game" can basically 0 to death you is... not very good reason (and yet Brinstar is banned in Melee cause it favours Ganondorf and Jiggly unlike PS which favours Fox and Falco lel). Many seem to forget that people ain't stupid. Also my opinion has changed from being "AMHG BAN BAN BAN!" into "This might bring some interesting counterplay" when it comes to any stage.

Sheik isn't the only character with stupid roof combos during wind, she's just the most obnoxious and happens to be the best character.
And yes it is reason on its own to ban the stage. When every single character has to auto-ban Pokemon Stadium 2 since they risk the opponent bringing out a pocket sheik and winning for free, you have an imbalanced stage.

I apologize for not reading 28 pages of this for my first post in the thread.

Stage strikes exist for a reason.

You should do your own research before advocating an awful stage to be legal. You hurt every single advocate for a large stagelist by not actually knowing about those stages.

The whole "just strike/ban it" logic applies to literally every stage. Just ban temple if your opponent's character is faster than yours, simple.

 

[Ansou]

I am willing to discuss about more of the stages if you want... But maybe this ain't the best place talk about it... (or is it?).

This is a pretty good place to talk about it. I would say that discussing things on an international website is way better than discussing things locally. The only problem is that not enough local people might be active here...

 

[Routa]

This is a pretty good place to talk about it. I would say that discussing things on an international website is way better than discussing things locally. The only problem is that not enough local people might be active here...

True. Btw what is the stagelist in Sweden? Just asking. Also discussing about stagelist locally is... Well you cannot call it "discussion". It saddens me that only few players are willing to try new things.

Also banning a stage without trying is very bad thing. I have seen that happen often with stages like KJ64 and Skyloft. They aren't as bad as they seem to be once you understand how thous stages work.

Oh and Ghostbone don't bring pocket Shiek argument ok? Nearly every character is able to do 0 to death in that part. But who says you have to go all in? I must remind that people need to adapt and change their gameplan depending from the foe AND stage. Good example is Brinstar in 3DS. I will say that in my opinion banning PS2 with reason being Wind bs... Well then T&C, Delfino, Castle Siege or any transforming/traveling stage should be banned cause they all have their "bad/unfair" transformations (traveling part of Delfino, Castle part of CS and the part where the plathform formation changes from Smashville like into traveling part in T&C). Sounds sille, eh?

 

[Ansou]

True. Btw what is the stagelist in Sweden? Just asking. Also discussing about stagelist locally is... Well you cannot call it "discussion". It saddens me that only few players are willing to try new things.

Also banning a stage without trying is very bad thing. I have seen that happen often with stages like KJ64 and Skyloft. They aren't as bad as they seem to be once you understand how thous stages work.

It's really silly. Even in this small country we don't have a unified ruleset. I honestly don't know what the people in Gothenburg are running, but here in Stockholm we have the weirdest stage list with:
Starter Stages:

• Final Destination
• Battlefield
• Smashville
• Town & City
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpick Stages:

• Delfino Plaza
• Dreamland 64

We actually had Castle Siege, Kongo Jungle 64, Halberd and Duck Hunt before, but then our TOs @Subordinate Alias @1Miguel1 @Lacklustre @soniczx123 and some more guys decided to ban them for some reason (if you want to motivate why, please do that).

We have not even tried running Skyloft or Wuhu Island.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned here. ZeRo talked to me about his opinions on legal stagelists and FLSS among other things. Your thoughts?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned here. ZeRo talked to me about his opinions on legal stagelists and FLSS among other things. Your thoughts?

I think he completely fails to understand how FLSS works, he doesn't know anywhere near as much about what constitutes a good stage for various characters as he thinks he does (either that, or he's lying), and I thought the whole "look to top players to figure out what a good ruleset is" meme died back in Brawl when it turned out that Mew2King, although an excellent player, couldn't tell his ass from a hole in the ground when it came to rulesets. Also: ZeRo either has some insane hidden tech with Mii Brawler that nobody has ever seen before or is talking completely out of his ass. I think he's a colossal idiot, and the fact that he's the best player in the world while still espousing such ridiculous views is extremely depressing.

 

[Ulevo]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned here. ZeRo talked to me about his opinions on legal stagelists and FLSS among other things. Your thoughts?

ZeRo has a valuable but limited view in this respect. I want to remind everyone that just because you are a formula 1 race car driver it does not suddenly make you an expert mechanic.

He implies that the inclusion of Mii Fighters with their customs and subsequently Mii Brawler would present a balance problem, and that this somehow justifies to their exclusion in the competitive scene or with move set limitations. He says he never pulled out Mii Brawler at EVO because he never lost and felt the need to do so. The truth is that ZeRo never played Mii Brawler at EVO because Sheik is better than Mii Brawler, along with several other characters. There were also no other notable Mii Brawlers at that tournament who placed well. So how does this make sense?

His thoughts on full stage striking are also suspect. He is attempting to illustrate his concerns in a hypothetical stage strike example with Sheik and Rosalina outside of a real match where another player, who knows their character better than he does, would have likely changed the given scenario by striking rather differently. He ends on the note that because the end result is playing on a "counterpick" then there is innately a problem with the strike system, which misses the point entirely. There are no true genuine counterpicks in this game. There are only stages more prone to less neutrality over a broader spectrum of characters, but that does not mean that say, Castle Siege could not present itself as the fairest stage game one between X and Y characters. He is trying to maintain the status quo because that is what he as a tournament player knows best.

His best points were on the individual stages themselves, such as Delfino and Halberd. This part is much easier to sympathize with what he's saying but its also because its a much more grey area of the ruleset. What concerns me is that ZeRo, along with several top commentators that represent the scene's public eye, have continuously shown us that their stage knowledge is much of the time incorrect. It should be common knowledge that say, Smashville has an identical ceiling to Final Destination, and yet this mistake comes up routinely. I do not believe that major decisions on rulesets should be made by players and organizers who do not understand the stages they are targeting their rules or opinions towards.

@ChileZeRo

 

[ParanoidDrone]

ZeRo has a valuable but limited view in this respect. I want to remind everyone that just because you are a formula 1 race car driver it does not suddenly make you an expert mechanic.

He implies that the inclusion of Mii Fighters with their customs and subsequently Mii Brawler would present a balance problem, and that this somehow justifies to their exclusion in the competitive scene or with move set limitations. He says he never pulled out Mii Brawler at EVO because he never lost and felt the need to do so. The truth is that ZeRo never played Mii Brawler at EVO because Sheik is better than Mii Brawler, along with several other characters. There were also no other notable Mii Brawlers at that tournament who placed well. So how does this make sense?

His thoughts on full stage striking are also suspect. He is attempting to illustrate his concerns in a hypothetical stage strike example with Sheik and Rosalina outside of a real match where another player, who knows their character better than he does, would have likely changed the given scenario by striking rather differently. He ends on the note that because the end result is playing on a "counterpick" then there is innately a problem with the strike system, which misses the point entirely. There are no true genuine counterpicks in this game. There are only stages more prone to less neutrality over a broader spectrum of characters, but that does not mean that say, Castle Siege could not present itself as the fairest stage game one between X and Y characters. He is trying to maintain the status quo because that is what he as a tournament player knows best.

His best points were on the individual stages themselves, such as Delfino and Halberd. This part is much easier to sympathize with what he's saying but its also because its a much more grey area of the ruleset. What concerns me is that ZeRo, along with several top commentators that represent the scene's public eye, have continuously shown us that their stage knowledge is much of the time incorrect. It should be common knowledge that say, Smashville has an identical ceiling to Final Destination, and yet this mistake comes up routinely. I do not believe that major decisions on rulesets should be made by players and organizers who do not understand the stages they are targeting their rules or opinions towards.

@ChileZeRo

Especially considering that I made all of these stage threads more or less for the express purpose of people being able to learn about stages without having to put in the legwork themselves. (Granted I don't actually cover blast zone sizes for most of them, but others including yourself have taken up the slack there too. So there's really no excuse.)