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Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

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Infinite901

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I still don't understand why we should change to FLSS. What reason is there to change the current system? What are the actual positives to switching? It doesn't help finding more neutral stages for the start of matches...especially since we have a solid 5 stage starter list now. FLSS takes a lot of time, which is the major issue with it. Saying 'there's no reason for there to be a distinction between starter and counterpick' is not a reason; there needs to be more than that because this distinction has lasted for many years and is embraced by essentially the entire Smash community.

Also, the fact that no one has responded to my earlier post about the stage list leads me to believe that no one could actually make an argument. I hope that isn't the case...
I'll give you a little history lesson right now, so you know WHY we had counterpicks in the first place. Keep in mind I'm not speaking from experience, I just know my Smash history.

Back in the early days of Melee, they had a different method of choosing stages: they did not strike on round 1. They went Random. They had a set of "neutrals" that they would set on random stage switch (today's 5 starters) and go to a random one of the neutrals game 1. The idea behind this was that those 5 stages did not favor characters and that Random bringing them to any of those stages would be fair. Of course, this is wrong. People eventually realized "Hey wait a sec, Marth really likes FD and Yoshi's Story! Hold on, Jigglypuff and Peach really like Dream Land!" People eventually realized that they were NOT neutral, and so Stage Striking was born. However, they stuck to Starter-CP out of familiarity. At this point, CP had become a common standard and people recognized it as such, and thus that outdated part of the system stuck with it while other parts evolved to better suit a competitive setting.

Rounds 2+ they went to CP, and, depending on area and time period, there were a LOT more CP stages than now. Region and time-period dependent, CP lists could include Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Mushroom Kingdom 2, Great Bay, Kongo Jungle 64, Congo Jungle, Green Greens, and in some cases even more. Over time, of course, broken things were slowly found and ban-worthy stages were weeded out. (another reason we should have a large stage list for Smash 4 right now) This shows, hey, people didn't necessarily know everything about the game and what's fair or not. People did not know everything that was unfair or conducive to competitive settings when they created CP.

TL;DR- CP was created during early Melee when FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, and Dreamland were all considered similar and fair enough that game 1 could go to a Random choice of them. CP had a lot of other stages that would never be considered today. Eventually when they realized that their "neutrals" were not truly neutral, they created Stage Striking, but kept CP out of familiarity.
 
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Illuminose

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I'll give you a little history lesson right now, so you know WHY we had counterpicks in the first place. Keep in mind I'm not speaking from experience, I just know my Smash history.

Back in the early days of Melee, they had a different method of choosing stages: they did not strike on round 1. They went Random. They had a set of "neutrals" that they would set on random stage switch (today's 5 starters) and go to a random one of the neutrals game 1. The idea behind this was that those 5 stages did not favor characters and that Random bringing them to any of those stages would be fair. Of course, this is wrong. People eventually realized "Hey wait a sec, Marth really likes FD and Yoshi's Story! Hold on, Jigglypuff and Peach really like Dream Land!" People eventually realized that they were NOT neutral, and so Stage Striking was born. However, they stuck to Starter-CP out of familiarity. At this point, CP had become a common standard and people recognized it as such, and thus that outdated part of the system stuck with it while other parts evolved to better suit a competitive setting.

Rounds 2+ they went to CP, and, depending on area and time period, there were a LOT more CP stages than now. Region and time-period dependent, CP lists could include Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Mushroom Kingdom 2, Great Bay, Kongo Jungle 64, Congo Jungle, Green Greens, and in some cases even more. Over time, of course, broken things were slowly found and ban-worthy stages were weeded out. (another reason we should have a large stage list for Smash 4 right now) This shows, hey, people didn't necessarily know everything about the game and what's fair or not. People did not know everything that was unfair or conducive to competitive settings when they created CP.

TL;DR- CP was created during early Melee when FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, and Dreamland were all considered similar and fair enough that game 1 could go to a Random choice of them. CP had a lot of other stages that would never be considered today. Eventually when they realized that their "neutrals" were not truly neutral, they created Stage Striking, but kept CP out of familiarity.
I didn't need a facetious history lesson. I know why counterpicks existed in the first place. The reason that we don't have a large number of stages legal to counterpick and that we shouldn't is because we now know the features that make a stage good and the features that make a stage bad. Trying everything halts the development of the game and moreover makes the game look bad when these things we're trying don't work out.

This also doesn't address how FLSS is actually a good thing...this is simply a diversion from addressing the actual point I made in my post, please don't cherrypick.
 

Infinite901

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I didn't need a facetious history lesson. I know why counterpicks existed in the first place. The reason that we don't have a large number of stages legal to counterpick and that we shouldn't is because we now know the features that make a stage good and the features that make a stage bad. Trying everything halts the development of the game and moreover makes the game look bad when these things we're trying don't work out.

This also doesn't address how FLSS is actually a good thing...this is simply a diversion from addressing the actual point I made in my post, please don't cherrypick.
You're right, it doesn't show why FLSS is good; it shows why CP is unnecessary and outdated, which indirectly leads to FLSS simply being better.

It seems that your argument for the most part is "most matchups will go to SV, BF, or FD anyway so why bother?" Well, I have to admit, yes, most matchups will go to the same 4 or so stages. But I want the stage list to represent ALL matchups as well as possible, which will sometimes not be one of your 3 or 5 starters. If the most neutral stage for an MU is Skyloft, I want it to go to Skyloft, not Smashville. Sure, there aren't a whole lot of MU's that will got to Skyloft or Halberd round 1, but when there is, I want the stage list to be ready to accommodate it as best as possible.
 

T4ylor

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Quality over quantity. I don't see why we need more than a handful of stages, especially when the ones we have are really good. Any more just serves to waste time and to have more just for the sake of having more. There should be a good reason to have a stage and not just "because I want to play on that too". Most people do not want to play on a lot of these other stages that others are tossing up as balanced, good, whatever and I, personally, wouldn't show up to a tournament running flss. If your community runs that then fine, but don't try bringing it here :) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

Infinite901

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and I, personally, wouldn't show up to a tournament running flss.
Then that's just stubbornness. I'll go to a tournament running two-stock, customs off, 3-stage starter. I despise that ruleset, but would it absolutely stop me from going? Not at all.

Quality over quantity. I don't see why we need more than a handful of stages, especially when the ones we have are really good.
Like I said, it's to prepare for those few matchups where those "really good" stages are not the most fair.

f it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It's broke.
 
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Omegaphoenix

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What's the point of FLSS if it's going to turn out mostly the same way regardless? Let's take our current stage list. Who is seriously going to let you start on one of the counterpick stages we currently have? Stages like Delfino, Castle Siege, and Halberd are extremely polarizing. There are very few matchups, if any, where these stages are actually neutral due to features like a campable sections, low ceilings, and temporary walkoffs. I'm not convinced that adding FLSS would make a significant difference in terms of the actual overall stage variety we would get. Almost all matches will start on Smashville or Battlefield or Dreamland, w/e, regardless. These hypotheticals are meaningless because they don't represent a variety of actual scenarios.
The problem with that argument is that while FLSS will still go to Smashville a lot, it opens more options. Even if 90% of matches still go to Smashville round 1, there will be times when the most neutral stage is something like Skyloft, and then they should be able to go there, instead of going to Smashville because. FLSS doesn't hurt the players who only want Smashville, all it does is open more options to those who may not be very good on the "neutral' stages.

Already addressed the first part, but I just want to say... It's actually very valid to defend tradition. It's the status quo, and the burden of proof is on the side trying to change the status quo. Now, you've actually provided some reasons, which I'll address, but do not try to shift the burden of proof here.
I'm not trying to shift proof. I'm just refuting the argument that tradition should be defended because its tradition. Tradition needs to stand on its own merits, not simply because it existed for a while.

Favoring specific stages means nothing. It doesn't matter whatsoever if we artificially promote certain stages via the starter/cp distinction, although I really don't think that's the case. What tends to happen is that players will ban the polarizing counterpicks, so we see them a bit less. This doesn't have to mean that we're artificially promoting them -- it could just mean that they're better stages for competition and more widely preferred. And yes, there are varying levels of stages that are actually appropriate for competition. Think about it this way: we would never ban Smashville, FD, Battlefield/Miiverse, or Dreamland 64. We would most likely never ban Town & City or Lylat Cruise (extremely conservative regions might ban these stages). We could potentially ban Duck Hunt, although most likely not because it's generally regarded as fine (conservative regions may ban this stage). There is actually a significant following for and decent chance that we might ban Halberd, Delfino Plaza, and/or Castle Siege (conservative regions will likely ban these stages). That speaks to the relative competitiveness of the legal stages. Just because a stage is legal does not mean that it is necessarily as good as the other stages. Some stages are barely legal, while others are clearly legal and competitive stages. This is why I don't subscribe to the 'all stages are created equal' belief.
The big problem with Starter CP is that it perpetuates the idea that game 1 is a sacred cow, that cannot be polluted with lesser stages. That way, it encourages players to only learn starter stages, as they are counterpickable as well. Why learn a CP stage when you'll never play on it? They never learn those CP stages, so when one player decides to CP to an actual CP stage, the other players immediately call 'jank' on crap they should know about the stage.

This idea that top tiers benefit from the starter stages has to do with the fact that they are good characters. Sheik is good on literally every single currently legal stage. Battlefield(/Miiverse) gives her platforms to work with and little room for opponents to evade her. FD makes it more difficult to get around her camping and makes it more difficult for foes to evade her combos/setups. Smashville provides extensions on combos and a place to sort of camp against certain characters with the moving platform. Town & City gives her even more effective platform camping potential in addition to sharking and earlier up air kills due to the low ceiling. Dreamland 64 gives her a Battlefield-like layout with very slightly less accessible platforms for certain characters, more space to work with, and slightly earlier up air kills than Battlefield due to the lower ceiling. Lylat Cruise gives her a lot of platforms to work with and a bit more ease gimping due to how the stage messes with recoveries, even after it was patched. Duck Hunt gives her an FD-like layout in addition to the tree, which can be a really potent camping tool in certain matchups. Halberd gives her super early up air kills. Castle Siege gives her a pretty nice advantage overall...especially the second transformation, which is an absolutely broken transformation for Sheik. Delfino gives her early confirms on transformations, temporary walkoffs to get early kills with her incredible horizontal combos, and campable transformations (she has one of the most solid camping games). Sheik's traits allow her to abuse almost any type of stage because she has so many different options and variety of setups to work with. I'm not going to go through every top tier, but the idea is that top tiers are just good characters and that's why we see them as having this perceived advantage via specific stages when they have the versatility/options to work well in pretty much any stage layout. If you really want to start on Halberd vs Sheik...by all means, I support your endeavor and I'll dthrow uair for a kill at 80%. I fail to see how having a starter/cp distinction actually boosts top tiers, who are just good characters.
The top tiers do tend to perform better on a multitude of stages. That is true, I'm willing to give you that. Sheik is incredible. But, just because they benefit on many stages doesn't mean that the stages don't effect them. Smashville has ultimate backthrow cheese, fair strings, and early kills on moves with high base knockback. I wouldn't want to take a Ness or Sheik there. But because of the small striking list, they get a guaranteed stage they will love. I would rather take them somewhere else, but I live in a 3 stage starter list area, and trust me, taking Sheik to Smashville is getting old, but I have to, and she then gets her options. Again, this isn't a thought experiment. The ice grabbers back in brawl got good because of a small stage listing, which banned all the stages that hurt them. Without Meta Knight, they would have been a mid tier at best.

Also, FLSS does not take 10 seconds. It takes the time to set up random stage select and go through each and every stage (selecting each of your strikes). That's not 10 seconds, more like 30 seconds minimum or more unless you both already know where you want to go, in which case FLSS is wasting time.[/quote]

Yes, that is a way to do it, but personally, if you and your opponent know how to stage strike, its not difficult. If every system has a list of stages, not an unreasonable demand honestly, its super fast. Even with using RSS, its still not a time drain like you claim. There are far worse problems that should be looked at for fixing time problems. More setups, actually DQing late players, among other things. This isn't a good argument. At all.

Edit:

It's broke
*Mic drop*
 
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Illuminose

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I'd like a bunch of actual scenarios where other stages are actually neutral. Not pointless hypotheticals

Also, saying that other things waste time is not a reason against FLSS wasting time.
 
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cot(θ)

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I'd like a bunch of actual scenarios where other stages are actually neutral. Not pointless hypotheticals

Also, saying that other things waste time is not a reason against FLSS wasting time.
OK. Let's all post matchups where the strike goes to somewhere other than FD, Battlefield, Smashville, T&C, and Lylat. As if it's not blindingly obvious that many such matchups exist...

Anyway, when I strike from 13 stages with our region's ZSS player, it goes to Wuhu Island.
 

Ghostbone

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Also, the point isn't just for game 1 to go a non "starter" stage, it's that the pool of starter stages is polarising.

Let's say we have 9 legal stages, and 5 starters. And for matchup A vs B, you can list the stages based on how favourable they are for A (so 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 with 1 being the best)
If the five starters are stages 1 through 5, then with a 5 stage starter list the game will start on A's 3rd best stage, that's pretty unfair to B. If we do FLSS, game 1 will start on stage 5, completely neutral for both characters. (just because that stage happens to be town and city as an example, doesn't mean FLSS had no effect)

FLSS is basically objectively superior aside from maaaaybe time constraints (no reason to make a distinction between starter and counterpicks, stages should just be legal if they're good enough to play on), but I can tell you people take way longer to pick stages for games 2 and 3 than game 1 even with FLSS.
 
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T4ylor

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Or you can just not whine about match ups and use a character that's actually good.

Edit: @ one of the posts below. Why would any decent Mega Man player let Bowser go to one of his best stages as opposed to striking it?
 
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Infinite901

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Or you can just not whine about match ups and use a character that's actually good.
Aaand there goes all credibility you might have had otherwise. Nice job.

I'd like a bunch of actual scenarios where other stages are actually neutral. Not pointless hypotheticals
Jigglypuff vs Sonic

On 3-stage starter, we go to Smashville. Sonic's favor.
On 5-stage, we go to Town and City or Smashville. Better, but still in Sonic's favor.
On 9-stage, we go to Town or Dream Land.
On 13-stage, we'd probably go to Duck Hunt - fairly even. Flat area gives Sonic room to run around, but the tree gives Jiggly some much needed breathing room.

Mega Man vs Bowser

On 3-stage, we go to Smashville. MM's favor.
On 5-stage, we go to Smashville or Town. MM's favor.
On 9-stage, we go to Delfino.
On 13-stage, we go to Delfino. Fairly even IMO.
 

Omegaphoenix

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Or you can just not whine about match ups and use a character that's actually good.

Edit: @ one of the posts below. Why would any decent Mega Man player let Bowser go to one of his best stages as opposed to striking it?
Why would you say Delfino is one of Bowser's best stages? I would think it's maybe alright for him, because the constant shifting and certain layouts allow some faster characters and zoners to run rings around him. Some smaller layouts give him good opportunities though.

As to matchups that end up on stages aside from main five, not really sure. My scene is really conservative, so I mostly end up playing Smashville all the time. I play pika so its fine, but still.
 

TheAnomaly

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Also, FLSS does not take 10 seconds. It takes the time to set up random stage select and go through each and every stage (selecting each of your strikes). That's not 10 seconds, more like 30 seconds minimum or more unless you both already know where you want to go, in which case FLSS is wasting time.
Do you set up random stage select during the 5 starter system? FLSS is the same thing just with extra stages to memorize. It might take a while to remember all the stages but once you do all you do is tell you opponent your strikes instead of going through the random select option or just gentleman to stage like you currently do. It only takes time during international tournaments where there is a language barrier.
 

Illuminose

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Do you set up random stage select during the 5 starter system? FLSS is the same thing just with extra stages to memorize. It might take a while to remember all the stages but once you do all you do is tell you opponent your strikes instead of going through the random select option or just gentleman to stage like you currently do. It only takes time during international tournaments where there is a language barrier.
Too many stages to memorize and can keep track of for this to be practical without random stage select.
 

MajorMajora

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Also, please stop using situations where the match still goes to a current starter as a way to say it doesn't change anything. It still can:

Lets say there are characters A and B and stages 1 through 9. the lower the number is, the better it is for A. The higher it is, the better the stage is for B.

If only stages 2-6 are considered starters, the stage selected will be stage 4 through stage striking. If FLSS is employed on stages 1-9, the stage selected will be stage 5, the fairest stage (due to being the median of the legal stage list). Yes, 5 is currently a starter under the 5 starter system, but FLSS still influenced the decision and made it fairer and not weighted in character A's favor.
 

ぱみゅ

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For the last tournament I made, I printed sheets with the 13 stages I had legal (a lot of setups didn't have every stage unlocked). Players didn't even FLSS often, they pretty much debated and agreed with a stage, and only went to the striking process if they didn't agree.
 

Illuminose

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For the last tournament I made, I printed sheets with the 13 stages I had legal (a lot of setups didn't have every stage unlocked). Players didn't even FLSS often, they pretty much debated and agreed with a stage, and only went to the striking process if they didn't agree.
This is actually an idea. I still don't like FLSS, but this is practical.
That is your fault.
This is actually idiotic. You want players to memorize and keep track of 13 stages off the top their head when stage striking? That's ridiculous.
 

RIP|Merrick

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For the last tournament I made, I printed sheets with the 13 stages I had legal (a lot of setups didn't have every stage unlocked). Players didn't even FLSS often, they pretty much debated and agreed with a stage, and only went to the striking process if they didn't agree.
Oh wow, 13 whole stages? In our scene and upcoming tournament, they're allowing Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, Dreamland 64, Delfino Plaza, Kongo Jungle 64, Duck Hunt, and Lylat Cruise. Nine stages right there. Did people seem to enjoy the full striking process more over the starter/counterpick distinction? I partially wonder if they only debated and agreed to a stage simply so they didn't have to strike each and every stage they didn't want or didn't want to keep track of. Regardless, it seemed to have worked well.
 

MajorMajora

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This is actually an idea. I still don't like FLSS, but this is practical.

This is actually idiotic. You want players to memorize and keep track of 13 stages off the top their head when stage striking? That's ridiculous.
We have to memorize a heck of a lot more characters and match ups than 13, and there's a lot more nuance in characters than in stages. So yeah, we do want players to memorize 13 stages.
 

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Oh wow, 13 whole stages? In our scene and upcoming tournament, they're allowing Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, Dreamland 64, Delfino Plaza, Kongo Jungle 64, Duck Hunt, and Lylat Cruise. Nine stages right there. Did people seem to enjoy the full striking process more over the starter/counterpick distinction? I partially wonder if they only debated and agreed to a stage simply so they didn't have to strike each and every stage they didn't want or didn't want to keep track of. Regardless, it seemed to have worked well.
Players here are used to many stages on my events. Granted, most stages don't get picked too awfully often (not even by myself, not owning a Wii U leaves me with no confidence to go to WuHu often), but players had tons of options avaliable, even they were fully aware of which stages were there to ban, and FLSS was pretty much a last resort when they couldn't get to an agreement.
 
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divade

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Hi, new to the debate.
I don't see the memorization to be much of an argument, of course whenever amd wherever this is implemented there will need to be a notice before hand for practice, and I'd expect a paper near the TVs in case players forget. I'm new to stage striking so my first experience, I was very glad for the sheet my tourney had, it didn't feel cumbersome at all despite not knowing the list well beforehand.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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That is your fault.

Can you stop being so antagonizing all the time?


Here's the thing people, the human brain can only reliably track 6 things actively before things start to get mixed up. So of course we can expect players to memorize 13 stages, that's not the issue. It's actually ridiculous to expect players to actively track 13 stages as they're being stuck without anything aiding them. It's not a matter of "GET GUD" or whatever, it's just a hard limit that you will have to respect in order to be taken seriously.

Now, if you have a visual aid, especially one you can interact with (Random Stage Select) the process becomes easier. If you want FLSS to work you NEED to provide a visual, and you also need to stop shaming players for not being able to strike 13 stages in their heads.
 

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Can you stop being so antagonizing all the time?

Here's the thing people, the human brain can only reliably track 6 things actively before things start to get mixed up. So of course we can expect players to memorize 13 stages, that's not the issue. It's actually ridiculous to expect players to actively track 13 stages as they're being stuck without anything aiding them. It's not a matter of "GET GUD" or whatever, it's just a hard limit that you will have to respect in order to be taken seriously.

Now, if you have a visual aid, especially one you can interact with (Random Stage Select) the process becomes easier. If you want FLSS to work you NEED to provide a visual, and you also need to stop shaming players for not being able to strike 13 stages in their heads.
Which is why I absolutely love love LOVE the visual aspect Anthers Ladder offers and it works so seamlessly and well for me. For people like me who fumble at times with remembering what I already struck, things like that absolutely help a tremendous lot when eliminating the stages I don't want and trying to get a fair stage I'm either comfortable with or I feel my character likes.

I tried the full strike system a few times at our weekly tournaments, and for me personally as well as a few others, I had a relatively tough time in my head remembering what we each had struck. Easy in Melee because of the limited, small stagelist and is no problem remembering of course, PM because stage striking is literally a feature in the mod, but Smash 4...

Next time I'm going to try what you suggested and just pick off stages from the Random Stage Select screen in the order we have to, because that actually sounds incredibly helpful and just what a visual guy like me could really use. Thanks for this! :)
 
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Pazx

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This is actually idiotic. You want players to memorize and keep track of 13 stages off the top their head when stage striking? That's ridiculous.
Have you seen striking performed in Melee? Turn the 13 stages on in Random Stage Select and strike them by turning them off until there is one left. I think we can expect people to do this, especially if there is a stagelist printed out nearby.
 

Illuminose

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Have you seen striking performed in Melee? Turn the 13 stages on in Random Stage Select and strike them by turning them off until there is one left. I think we can expect people to do this, especially if there is a stagelist printed out nearby.
Melee does this with 5 stages, not 13, and those stages/the metagame are much more 'figured out'. Those two factors (especially the fact that you have to strike over double the amount of stages) mean there is a world of difference between striking here and striking in Melee.
 

TheAnomaly

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The amount of time striking takes is in practice insignificant. There is no question that it might take a while to become accustomed to but after a while it is as simple as choosing what clothes to wear. If you have a concrete idea of what you want from the beginning and it is available then there is no need to go through the full process. Otherwise your brain basically goes through this process:

1) You look and see 13 different shirts to wear. You eliminate a specific number that you absolutely do not want to wear .(this "half" are your bans)

(2) Some might be unavailable due to being unwashed or crumpled. (your opponent struck the one of the stages you did not eliminate)

3) Then you pick based on what is left.

Simple process that happens really quickly. The only time it becomes tricky is if you have an entire set of new clothes. However after a while, you become accustomed to them and it once again becomes simple. Are you people honestly telling me that choosing a shirt to wear is too problematic after a situation like buying a new set of shirts?

By the way, @ The_Jiggernaut The_Jiggernaut mentioned how the human brain only recalls about 6 items at a time. That 6 item fact only applies to short term memory. After playing with FLSS for a while they will be added to long term memory. I'm sure it is fairly trivial for any of you to remember 20 smash characters right now if I asked you even though you may not play half of the characters you mention or even see them regularly.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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By the way, @ The_Jiggernaut The_Jiggernaut mentioned how the human brain only recalls about 6 items at a time. That 6 item fact only applies to short term memory. After playing with FLSS for a while they will be added to long term memory. I'm sure it is fairly trivial for any of you to remember 20 smash characters right now if I asked you even though you may not play half of the characters you mention or even see them regularly.

You're very much missing the point. I am fully aware that the 6-item list only applies to short term memory. Doing FLSS requires you to use your short-term memory to track which of the 13 stages (which you might very well have firmly in your long-term memory) happen to be chosen by you and your opponent. You have to track items that change in every instance of stage striking. No matter how many times you preform a short-term memory task, it doesn't suddenly STOP being a short-term memory task. It's just not how it works.

You might be able to memorize a lot of phone numbers, but keeping a new phone number in your head will always be based on short-term memory, even if it's something your job requires of you.
 

Jaxas

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You're very much missing the point. I am fully aware that the 6-item list only applies to short term memory. Doing FLSS requires you to use your short-term memory to track which of the 13 stages (which you might very well have firmly in your long-term memory) happen to be chosen by you and your opponent. You have to track items that change in every instance of stage striking. No matter how many times you preform a short-term memory task, it doesn't suddenly STOP being a short-term memory task. It's just not how it works.

You might be able to memorize a lot of phone numbers, but keeping a new phone number in your head will always be based on short-term memory, even if it's something your job requires of you.
Well luckily you never have to keep track mentally, because you can strike on the random stage select screen, making this a non-issue.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Well luckily you never have to keep track mentally, because you can strike on the random stage select screen, making this a non-issue.
I do agree with that, but several people were stating that it's trivial to preform FLSS without any visual aid. It's important that they understand that the Random Stage Select screen is a necessity, rather than expect their tournaments to simply work without it set up.
 

TheAnomaly

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I do agree with that, but several people were stating that it's trivial to preform FLSS without any visual aid. It's important that they understand that the Random Stage Select screen is a necessity, rather than expect their tournaments to simply work without it set up.
It is trivial. I'm not denying random stage select is the best way to go about it but it is in no way necessary once people have used FLSS for a while. I'm simply debunking the myth that it will add extra time to every set for the rest of smash history once it is implemented. It can be done without it almost as easily. You shouldn't really have to remember your own bans, only your opponent's because the majority of the time you will go into the match knowing which stages you will ban from previous experience. Therefore you only need to remember the 5-6 stages(depending on if you strike first or last) that your opponent bans.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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It is trivial. I'm not denying random stage select is the best way to go about it but it is in no way necessary once people have used FLSS for a while. I'm simply debunking the myth that it will add extra time to every set for the rest of smash history once it is implemented. It can be done without it almost as easily. You shouldn't really have to remember your own bans, only your opponent's because the majority of the time you will go into the match knowing which stages you will ban from previous experience. Therefore you only need to remember the 5-6 stages(depending on if you strike first or last) that your opponent bans.
It's not trivial. You do have to remember your own strikes. The only case you don't is the fringe case where your opponent only strikes stages you would never have struck. In the real world, you opponent is going to strike stages you were going to strike, and therefore you'll have to track more than 6 stages. You can't just memorize what your 6 strikes are going to be for every player because people learn and change their minds.

Here, to everyone who thinks doing FLSS unaided is so easy, why not stop theorycrafting online and just do it. Find a friend and start striking the 13 stages. Don't have a list of stages present as that counts as a visual aid, though it shouldn't make a difference, considering how simple it is to memorize 13 stages. Just like, see how that goes. If you get to the end without fumbling once: congratulations, you and your partner are super-human. Use this new-found knowledge wisely. If it goes badly and takes up a lot of time, remember that's what new players will experience in your scene before even playing a game. I don't particularly care if you're supposed to get better after 100 times using FLSS, you've ruined the accessibility of your game.

The lesson here is set up Random Stage Select at your tournaments, or at least provide a visual aid of some kind. And stop theorycrafting in place of considering actual people.
 

MajorMajora

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Well, with visual aids that could just be at every station, it'll be an easy work around, so arguing over how easy or hard the least most difficult method is is rather pointless considering how we won't be using it.
 

Infinite901

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Can you stop being so antagonizing all the time?

Here's the thing people, the human brain can only reliably track 6 things actively before things start to get mixed up. So of course we can expect players to memorize 13 stages, that's not the issue. It's actually ridiculous to expect players to actively track 13 stages as they're being stuck without anything aiding them. It's not a matter of "GET GUD" or whatever, it's just a hard limit that you will have to respect in order to be taken seriously.

Now, if you have a visual aid, especially one you can interact with (Random Stage Select) the process becomes easier. If you want FLSS to work you NEED to provide a visual, and you also need to stop shaming players for not being able to strike 13 stages in their heads.
Sorry. .-.

I meant more along the lines of that it was his fault, because he couldn't be bothered to do it the easy way.

Random Stage select really is the the best way to do it though, especially in Smash 4 where you can show all the allowed stages on the Omega page.
 

MrGame&Rock

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yeah, there's an in-game menu that helps with FLSS, we may as well use it.

I've a couple of side questions, though. For one, are we keeping Battlefield legal? It's a fine stage, but is outclassed entirely by miiverse. They have the same layout, same boundaries, but the difference is that Miiverse doesn't have the jank edges that Battlefield has in this game. If there's a stage that is the same or better in every way, why have the inferior version around? As for Miiverse + Dreamland banning, they are so similar but also just different enough to not consider them the same stage. Perhaps we could implement a system in which the player striking stages can ban either both stages at once with a single ban, or ban one, leave the other alone, and idk get an extra stage ban? Because there will be a couple of matchups in which Miiverse will be notably more favorable than Dreamland or vice versa.

My other question(s) concern two of my favorite stages: Wuhu and Skyloft. They're not very popular, though they have their supporters. Are they considered banworthy simply for being traveling stages, or does it have more to do with problems specific to each stage individually? In a hypothetical scenario, what would a perfect traveling stage look like?
 

webbedspace

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Very few to no people have complained about Battlefield's "jank" edges. Instead, several regions have banned Miiverse solely due to the effort in ensuring that each station has internet off.
In a hypothetical scenario, what would a perfect traveling stage look like?
Town & City :p
Anyway, (bugfixed) Wuhu and Skyloft are mostly banned due to a feedback loop created by the Apex list: no one legalises them -> they're not popular -> no one legalises them. (TBF a few Skyloft bugs have given people pause, but by and large this principle predominates). An equal opposite loop exists for Delfino and Halberd, ensuring they'll probably never be banned in the mainstream despite being arguably worse stages in terms of "blast zone jank".
 

ParanoidDrone

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yeah, there's an in-game menu that helps with FLSS, we may as well use it.

I've a couple of side questions, though. For one, are we keeping Battlefield legal? It's a fine stage, but is outclassed entirely by miiverse. They have the same layout, same boundaries, but the difference is that Miiverse doesn't have the jank edges that Battlefield has in this game. If there's a stage that is the same or better in every way, why have the inferior version around? As for Miiverse + Dreamland banning, they are so similar but also just different enough to not consider them the same stage. Perhaps we could implement a system in which the player striking stages can ban either both stages at once with a single ban, or ban one, leave the other alone, and idk get an extra stage ban? Because there will be a couple of matchups in which Miiverse will be notably more favorable than Dreamland or vice versa.

My other question(s) concern two of my favorite stages: Wuhu and Skyloft. They're not very popular, though they have their supporters. Are they considered banworthy simply for being traveling stages, or does it have more to do with problems specific to each stage individually? In a hypothetical scenario, what would a perfect traveling stage look like?
I think that Wuhu Island and Skyloft are both generally well regarded (I haven't seen either poll at less than around 50% support ever, nowadays they're probably higher especially with Wuhu's boat glitch fixed), it's just that EVO has them banned and a lot of places are playing follow the leader in that regard. Of course, EVO only has them banned because it copied APEX's rules, and by the time anyone noticed and made a fuss they had already locked in whatever contract with Nintendo that prevents them from streaming non-authorized music, so...yeah.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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Very few to no people have complained about Battlefield's "jank" edges. Instead, several regions have banned Miiverse solely due to the effort in ensuring that each station has internet off.
Really? Doesn't it take effort to connect your Wii U to a wireless network in the venue? If I brought my wii u to a tourney, it wouldn't recognize the network and wouldn't connect. Besides, don't large tourneys already make sure internet is off for interference reasons? Then again, an internet connection would be required to download the dlc fighters and dreamland, so... yeah, all things considered, you're probably right.

Anyway, (bugfixed) Wuhu and Skyloft are mostly banned due to a feedback loop created by the Apex list: no one legalises them -> they're not popular -> no one legalises them. (TBF a few Skyloft bugs have given people pause, but by and large this principle predominates). An equal opposite loop exists for Delfino and Halberd, ensuring they'll probably never be banned in the mainstream despite being arguably worse stages in terms of "blast zone jank".
Makes sense. On this thread specifically, and other stage discussion threads, I've noticed a lack of support for Delfino/Castle/even Halberd among people who don't also back Skyloft and Wuhu. My personal stagelist includes all five, and I really hope that after EVO we see some love for them. I'm also considering adding Mario Circuit to said personal stagelist so

and by the time anyone noticed and made a fuss they had already locked in whatever contract with Nintendo that prevents them from streaming non-authorized music, so...yeah.
Can APEX and EVO renew those contracts with different terms for next year?
 
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