Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[jespoke]

Garden of Hope has the crystal crab. That thing comes with short warning, runs across at least half the stage, and is one of the hardest hitting stage hazards in the game. This stage doesn't even make my top 15 for legality candidates

 

[ParanoidDrone]

FD is a worse duckhunt . . .
The complete lack of platforms makes FD easily the most polarizing starter, and just because it is simple doesnt make it a good choice in the starter list.

Im not saying ban FD obviously, but pretending everyone hates duckhunt is ignorant. Its also the only stage with walls other than certain omegas.

If we are going to move toward less conservative stages, id like to throw in pilot wings, skyloft and my personal favorite: garden of hope

Garden has hazzards much easier to avoid than halberd and has interesting mechanics at the edges without being to game breaking.

Pilotwings is a no-go since both planes have powerful camping positions. Especially the yellow one, the pontoons below the wings are valid places to stand. If you can get there and the opponent can't, that's GG for the next minute and a half or so. If the opponent can try to chase you, it's still a huge advantage to the camper.

Skyloft is fine, or it would be if people would stop being scared of the island's hitbox as the stage flies around. Garden of Hope is unlikely because of the Peckish Aristocrab.

 

[Xeze]

Of the stages, though, we've already got a basic idea of what goes where;

LEGAL (STARTER)
Battlefield/Miiverse
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pokemon Stadium 2

These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.

What is Stadium doing there? Are you forgetting the Wind transformation?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

What is Stadium doing there? Are you forgetting the Wind transformation?

These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.

The Wind transformation doesn't hamstring any characters and does not favor any playstyles, so I count it as legal as a starter.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik killing at 10% from a grab doesn't feel like legal material.
/plenty of other characters have ridiculous vertical kill combos during wind too

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Sheik killing at 10% from a grab doesn't feel like legal material.
/plenty of other characters have ridiculous vertical kill combos during wind too

So if everybody has them, why is it problematic? If we complain about banning PS2 becase of the Wind transformation giving characters ridiculously early vertical kills, Delfino should be unanimously banned as well, because that stage is practically heaven for ridiculously early vertical kills.

The Wind transformation is temporary, in any case; it's not like that's the only transformation the stage has. And all the others don't have any issues, either; so banning a stage because of a single transformation that isn't even that problematic in the grand scheme of things doesn't make sense; it'd be like banning Pokemon Stadium because of the Rock transformation forcing people to jump to get to the other side of it and it's not fair to characters with worse jumps.

And Shiek always kills easily from grabs, regardless of wind; the wind only compliments her kit, it doesn't make her broken. It's not like PS2 makes her Brawl Meta Knight levels of broken, it's just a slight advantage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm reasonably sure that a guaranteed kill at 10% off of a grab is a few orders of magnitude above Sheik's usual shenanigans.

That said, it's also entirely possible for the Flying transformation to not show up at all during a match -- it has to go to at least 5:30 in order to guarantee that every form appears. (6:00 if you want the full duration of the form.)

Whether or not you believe it's worth a ban is probably correlated with whether or not there are any Sheiks in your area that abuse it.

Ghostbone who else can get early kills? I imagine ROB is a contender because I think his uair also autolinks, but is there anyone else?

 

[Xeze]

ParanoidDrone Mario can get some shenanigans with his Up B, specially with rage. Meta Knight might also get early kills with his tornado.

 

[Aquatics]

PS2 has Jank, why is that even legal in some states

 

[ParanoidDrone]

PS2 has Jank, why is that even legal in some states

Because "jank" is so nebulous and vague as to be effectively meaningless. Specify.

"PS2 is a bad stage because it's jank." Why is it jank? What does the jank entail? Is it one specific element or many separate ones? It's hard to have a conversation when one party doesn't even know what you're talking about.

"PS2 is a bad stage because the Flying transformation's reduced gravity enables ridiculously early kills off the top through tactics such as Sheik's uair > dj uair." There, that's a solid foundation, a thesis statement if you will, that opens up some discussion. Now we can talk about the difficulty or ease of execution, which characters can do this, possible counterplay, and the like.

 

[epicnights]

PS2 has Jank, why is that even legal in some states

Gonna be completely honest, I'm surprised at all the ways people use the word "Jank". It's an adjective, an adverb, AND a noun, all at the same time!

Anyway, I'm thinking of expounding on my thoughts of the PS2 wind transformation, so look forward to that in some hours.

 

[lordvaati]

my personal 3DS variant:

Starter
FD/Omegas
BF/DL64
Yoshi's Island

CP
Duck Hunt
Arena Ferox
Prism Tower
Tomodachi Life*
Reset Forest*

*=may stay or go depending on feedback.

 

[flieskiller]

LEGAL (STARTER)
Battlefield/Miiverse
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pokemon Stadium 2

These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.

LEGAL (COUNTERPICK)
Pyrosphere (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Wily's Castle (Omega)
Skyloft
Castle Seige
Lylat Cruise
Orbital Gate Assault
Skyworld (Omega)
Midgar (Omega)
Gaur Plains (Omega)
Dream Land 64
Peach's Castle 64
Temple (Omega)
Norfair
Windy Hill
Port Town Aero Dive
Jungle Hijinx
Luigi's Mansion (Omega)
Hyrule Castle (64)

You consider Jungle Hijinxs a legal counterpick stage, the easiest stage to evade the opponent and time out, but consider Midgar a banned stage?

Also, Orbital Gate Assault is another pretty insane stage that I would put at the bottom of the "potential legal list"

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You consider Jungle Hijinxs a legal counterpick stage, the easiest stage to evade the opponent and time out, but consider Midgar a banned stage?

Also, Orbital Gate Assault is another pretty insane stage that I would put at the bottom of the "potential legal list"

OGA is Pokefloats-tier IMO, maybe a bit better since you can actually grab the ledges. Nowhere near ideal, but workable if you're familiar enough with the stage to not worry about the ships coming and going.

 

[Splebel]

Midgar can be a fair stage because, there is ample warning for each transformation, The platforms don't do much damage if you don't land on them, Odin's Spear is super easy to avoid, Water affects everyone, although I don't know if the stage lip damages the summoner if they ram into it. The biggest problem I would say is Bahumut's laser, but that I feel can be waited out. I would say try it before insta-banning it.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Midgar can be a fair stage because, there is ample warning for each transformation, The platforms don't do much damage if you don't land on them, Odin's Spear is super easy to avoid, Water affects everyone, although I don't know if the stage lip damages the summoner if they ram into it. The biggest problem I would say is Bahumut's laser, but that I feel can be waited out. I would say try it before insta-banning it.

...No, that's dumb.

The summons aren't just transformations, the summons actually do damage and can even instakill people who aren't the summoner. With that you get into one of the classic item problems (i.e. Mobility rules) and then next thing you know the stage is banned anyways because Ramuh and Leviathan are kind of incredibly overpowered.

And at the end of the day, even if there weren't summons then it'd just be another goddamn Battlefield.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel like if Midgar were just Ramuh: the stage, it would actually have a better shot at legality than it does now. Simply because the platforms moving into various configurations and back is kind of cool. (Damaging electricity is a pain though.)

But Midgar is more than just Ramuh and has the following problems:

• Summons are triggered by touching the Materia. Mobility is king in this context. (Note to self: Double check that Luma can't pick up the Materia.)
• Each summon is its own flavor of powerful, either in terms of raw damage or general obnoxiousness. Ifrit is probably the tamest of the lot, which is saying something given that he (it?) shoves the stage around with a 26% damage jet of flame.
• The summoner is generally immune to the summon, Leviathan being the primary exception, which imbalances any given summon in favor of a specific player.
• It's yet another Battlefield clone. It turns out that although the blast zones are identical as far as I can tell, the stage itself is a bit larger and the platforms are a bit more spaced out, again as far as I can tell. The bottom two platforms are definitely higher up at the very least, and side-by-side comparison screenshots of the normal and Omega form suggests that the two are exactly the same size, meaning it's the same size as FD. (Battlefield is a bit shorter IIRC.)

 

[Splebel]

It's more of a positioning thing than a mobility issue. I have a hard time believing that Ganondorf won't reach the Materia first if he is on the same side of the stage as it while Sonic is on the other side. Odin's the only one that will instakill, and that is only if you have damage. At 0% it won't kill, at least not on the 3DS as PAC-MAN but it does give you 100%. Leviathan can also instakill but that is toward everyone. Same with the stage coming together. Also Ifrit only attacks on one side of the stage, and can be easily avoided/waited out. Same applies to Bahumut.

 

[lordvaati]

Midgar can be a fair stage because, there is ample warning for each transformation, The platforms don't do much damage if you don't land on them, Odin's Spear is super easy to avoid, Water affects everyone, although I don't know if the stage lip damages the summoner if they ram into it. The biggest problem I would say is Bahumut's laser, but that I feel can be waited out. I would say try it before insta-banning it.

Midgar is a lost cause, but is undoubtedly the most fun Hazard stage in the game.

Umbra Tower is the new hope.

 

[Splebel]

I ask anyone to show me video evidence as to why Midgar shouldn't be legal without staging it. ie. Having someone stand in Odin's way, walking into the laser. Because all I hear is a bunch of empty reasons.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I ask anyone to show me video evidence as to why Midgar shouldn't be legal without staging it. ie. Having someone stand in Odin's way, walking into the laser. Because all I hear is a bunch of empty reasons.

"Show me video evidence as to why a Battlefield clone entirely centered around its stage hazards doesn't interest people in having it as legal"

I don't know, how about you show me video evidence that jet fuel can't melt steel beams?

 

[Splebel]

I don't know, how about you show me video evidence that jet fuel can't melt steel beams?

I can send you a link to the contrary but I know this a touchy subject for some people so I won't post it here if I don't have to.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Midgar is a lost cause, but is undoubtedly the most fun Hazard stage in the game.

Umbra Tower is the new hope.

I agree Umbra Clock Tower looks promising. I'm rather excited, for it and Bayonetta both.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghostbone who else can get early kills? I imagine ROB is a contender because I think his uair also autolinks, but is there anyone else?

Tbh I haven't labbed other characters much because I don't really see the point when the stage is so obviously broken.

But DK can do cargo u-throw > uair > DJ uair and kill way early as an example.
Samus can uair > uair > up-b and kill (though i'm not really worried about Samus breaking the stage haha)
I'm sure mario could probably do 3 uairs > up-b reliably and kill too.

 

[Balgorxz]

Midgar would have a chance if Umbra didn't looked so damn legal

 

[MajorMajora]

I honestly agree PS2 should be banned. (And this is coming from Mr. "OGS might be legal material" himself).

The argument exists that low % kills are not an issue if skill is involved. And awareness of the stage is very much a skill, on both player's sides. This is why blast-zone shenanigans on Delfino could be argued as healthy.

The problem with PS2 is two fold, however. The first is that the Wind is so persistent when it appears that an entire game may swing in a few confirms. This would be fine if it were, say, a ten stock game, but it's not. The highest we go is 3 stock, and even that is losing to 2 stock.

The second is one of randomness. A character might chose this stage because of the wind (reasonable, how the CP process should work). However, the degree to which the wind appears at all is uncertain. For something with such a significant impact, it is difficult to really consider it having any strategic value, rendering it as a stage relatively pointless to have on a list.

 

[FirewaterDM]

At some level, the largest problem with PS2 being legal isn't even the wind transformation, but the electric transformation (it's legitimately worse than the wind in terms of disrupting gameplay). At the same time, if we're throwing out ideas for stagelists, I do have a few ideas, though it's not quite as liberal as some others posted. As a side note, under no circumstances should we ever consider a stagelist smaller than 7 stages

Starters: -
Smashville
FD/Omegas
*Lylat
Town & City
Battlefield/Millverse
*Dreamland

This is the "golden 6" obviously would only keep 5 as starters, but the only questions would be Dreamland and Lylat, either way if we only were to include the generic 7, no experimentation, Lylat's more likely the better Starter because of the different layout to the other stages. Not real counterpick stages, certain characters prefer some more to others, but generally the advantages gained are very small (some cases do change such as Mac on FD/Omegas in certain MU's and Shiek on Smashville) but overall are even enough.


Counterpicks: (Generally accepted as ok counterpicks)
Duck Hunt
Dreamland/Lylat

These stages are pretty much fair game, no reason to remove, few hazard that actually change the game. can give a tiny advantage to certain playstyles or characters, and would be the most logical if stagelist was ever expanded to 7 starters to be added. Each has specific stage elements that players should learn.

In terms of Bans- Only way to ensure a BO5 can happen is at maximum 1 ban. More than that makes BO5 sets with DSR impossible.

Additional Counterpicks:

Delfino
Haliberd
Kongo Jungle
Castle Siege


These stages are based on preference- better in terms of the reasoning behind the term "counterpick" because each stage has certain characteristics that can directly benefit characters in some way (short blast zones, larger stage/space, etc.) Are banned because of lack of knowledge of the stage or salt. Even if certain issues exist (low ceilings, Haliberd ship weapons, barrel). If the player does his or her knowledge of the stage/information of their character, most complaints should go away. Most jank is due to character design or lack of knowledge. Also certain mechanics (walkoffs) were nerfed due to grab changes.

In terms of Bans- If only one stage from the list is added, a 8 stage + 1 ban would be sufficient.

Reasoning- One ban allows for strategic removal of the percieved worse stage in a MU. Since the list is still relatively limited, more than 1 ban would make BO5 sets incredibly difficult and make the advantage of a CP stage relatively useless.

If 2 or more of the stages are added, then a second ban is required, while it could create the original problem, you have enough stages to where 2 bans is actually feasible and wouldn't be used to eliminate stages unnecessarily

IMO- Order of least to most viable is Delfino <- Kongo <- Siege/Haiberd.

Controversial/More than likely to get a negative response
Wuhu Island (Some transformations are meh, namely beach)
Pilotwings (camping potential on second plane is only concern)
Hyrule Castle 64 (Tornado, cave of life)
Peach's Castle 64 (caves of life)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (the stupidity that is the electric transformation)
Mario Circuit (Wii U) (some transformations are sketchy)
Wii Fit Studio (Is viable if we overcome distrust of walkoffs)
Gamer (random layouts, MOM)
Midgar/Cloud's Stage (Laser = low visibility, general power of the summons)
Norfair (size, lava)

Out of this list they have definite traits that make them useful counterpick stages. However there are potential hazards or misconceptions that make them unlikely to ever be added. They should not be used before the stages before them, however I believe Wuhu and Hyrule Castle 64, and possibly PS2 could be adequately added to a stagelist. However there are significant concerns that give good justifications for why they shouldn't be included. The other issue is then the stagelist and options become too large. counterpick options are great, but should not make it to where more than 3 bans would become a nesessity. Reasons why stages are controversial/not worth testing are added.

Thanks Sakurai for ruining viable stages
Wily's Castle (Yellow Devil)
Pyrosphere (Ridley)
Kalos League (Water, Steel type transformation)
Skyloft (waterfall transformation)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit is only reason this can't be legal)

Not much to say, while the design is excellent and makes a CP stage, there are elements that cannot be adapted to or even exploited for a fair game in competitive settings.

if i didn't name a stage it is 100% unfit for comp play.

 

[MajorMajora]

At some level, the largest problem with PS2 being legal isn't even the wind transformation, but the electric transformation (it's legitimately worse than the wind in terms of disrupting gameplay). At the same time, if we're throwing out ideas for stagelists, I do have a few ideas, though it's not quite as liberal as some others posted. As a side note, under no circumstances should we ever consider a stagelist smaller than 7 stages

Starters: -
Smashville
FD/Omegas
*Lylat
Town & City
Battlefield/Millverse
*Dreamland

This is the "golden 6" obviously would only keep 5 as starters, but the only questions would be Dreamland and Lylat, either way if we only were to include the generic 7, no experimentation, Lylat's more likely the better Starter because of the different layout to the other stages. Not real counterpick stages, certain characters prefer some more to others, but generally the advantages gained are very small (some cases do change such as Mac on FD/Omegas in certain MU's and Shiek on Smashville) but overall are even enough.


Counterpicks: (Generally accepted as ok counterpicks)
Duck Hunt
Dreamland/Lylat

These stages are pretty much fair game, no reason to remove, few hazard that actually change the game. can give a tiny advantage to certain playstyles or characters, and would be the most logical if stagelist was ever expanded to 7 starters to be added. Each has specific stage elements that players should learn.

In terms of Bans- Only way to ensure a BO5 can happen is at maximum 1 ban. More than that makes BO5 sets with DSR impossible.

Additional Counterpicks:

Delfino
Haliberd
Kongo Jungle
Castle Siege


These stages are based on preference- better in terms of the reasoning behind the term "counterpick" because each stage has certain characteristics that can directly benefit characters in some way (short blast zones, larger stage/space, etc.) Are banned because of lack of knowledge of the stage or salt. Even if certain issues exist (low ceilings, Haliberd ship weapons, barrel). If the player does his or her knowledge of the stage/information of their character, most complaints should go away. Most jank is due to character design or lack of knowledge. Also certain mechanics (walkoffs) were nerfed due to grab changes.

In terms of Bans- If only one stage from the list is added, a 8 stage + 1 ban would be sufficient.

Reasoning- One ban allows for strategic removal of the percieved worse stage in a MU. Since the list is still relatively limited, more than 1 ban would make BO5 sets incredibly difficult and make the advantage of a CP stage relatively useless.

If 2 or more of the stages are added, then a second ban is required, while it could create the original problem, you have enough stages to where 2 bans is actually feasible and wouldn't be used to eliminate stages unnecessarily

IMO- Order of least to most viable is Delfino <- Kongo <- Siege/Haiberd.

Controversial/More than likely to get a negative response
Wuhu Island (Some transformations are meh, namely beach)
Pilotwings (camping potential on second plane is only concern)
Hyrule Castle 64 (Tornado, cave of life)
Peach's Castle 64 (caves of life)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (the stupidity that is the electric transformation)
Mario Circuit (Wii U) (some transformations are sketchy)
Wii Fit Studio (Is viable if we overcome distrust of walkoffs)
Gamer (random layouts, MOM)
Midgar/Cloud's Stage (Laser = low visibility, general power of the summons)
Norfair (size, lava)

Out of this list they have definite traits that make them useful counterpick stages. However there are potential hazards or misconceptions that make them unlikely to ever be added. They should not be used before the stages before them, however I believe Wuhu and Hyrule Castle 64, and possibly PS2 could be adequately added to a stagelist. However there are significant concerns that give good justifications for why they shouldn't be included. The other issue is then the stagelist and options become too large. counterpick options are great, but should not make it to where more than 3 bans would become a nesessity. Reasons why stages are controversial/not worth testing are added.

Thanks Sakurai for ruining viable stages
Wily's Castle (Yellow Devil)
Pyrosphere (Ridley)
Kalos League (Water, Steel type transformation)
Skyloft (waterfall transformation)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit is only reason this can't be legal)

Not much to say, while the design is excellent and makes a CP stage, there are elements that cannot be adapted to or even exploited for a fair game in competitive settings.

if i didn't name a stage it is 100% unfit for comp play.

Well for starters (pun not intended) it's impossible for me to take any stage list that considers using the starter CP system seriously. Your insistence on certain elements benefiting certain characters more is pretty poor because everything is relative, and SV/FD/BF all favor certain playstyles over others themselves. I could honestly make the argument we should only have transforming stages since they have the widest range o playstyles supported, which isn't anymore BS than having exclusively Flat+Plat first game when we agree other stages are fair enough to be legal.

So for the rest I'll just treat this as an assessment of which stages are the most viable/most likely to get a negative response, and I agree more or less with what you say. PS2's problems are no problem in comparison to Midgar and lack its drastically divergent random elements. Steel isn't nearly bad as people say it is, a smart person can avoid it, and an aggressive player (in theory) is punoshed in the situation, making it so the most negative effect is the battle stopping for 15 seconds when the thing shows up.

Skyloft, how is the waterfall transformation that ruinous? It causes earlier kills to those who are judicious with their spikes? It rewards skill by encouraging an altered weighing of options that players need to take into account?

Gamer is no good due to randomness. I actually agree with you on Wii Fit but no one else will. saying Peach's Castle has caves of life is like saying a McDonald's happy meal has nutritional value, true only in the most literal sense, and even then the claim is dubious.

A lot of other controversial stages I feel are just too big a problem. For the most part with the most viable legal stages you have a lot of good points. With those big 8, as a matter of fact, even if no one can be sold on the only reasonable solution FLSS, umbra clock tower could be added for a nine stage starter list.

Though realy us taking Delfino/Siege off the list is fairly ridiculous itself, but I guess I have to face reality on that one.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

File Coliseum under "good except for walkoffs" as well. Maybe Mario Galaxy depending on how much the curvature annoys people.

Seriously, if a hypothetical PM mod for 4 ever ends up picking up steam, I think a lot of stages would only need relatively simple (in concept) alterations to make them tournament legal.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I think as we've run FLSS for quite some months now with seven stages and looking at two stages to add potentially, the recent slight complaint that FLSS can be slightly confusing to some despite and forgetting what they strike at times when coming to tournaments often does have some merit to it I feel when looking at including new stages. If people are just barely tolerant of it with seven stages, how would I expect people to be down with the system using nine stages?

Compromise is always nice for these kinds of things. I'm looking to make a big proposal potentially this coming February if Umbra Clock Tower is legal material. Some here still do not think, with the understanding of FLSS, that Dreamland should be available immediately game one, which is respectable to me given the similarities to Battlefield enough where it does feel like you're striking from two Battlefields. My hypothetical ruleset would be this for stages, based purely on what I've seen of Umbra Clock Tower and from feedback from our community regarding our current stages.

Spoiler: Proposed Stage List #1

Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

Dreamland 64
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?

The first proposed plan for our scene is for those who deem Dreamland to be too similar to Battlefield to be available immediately. It would have more unique stage layouts, and there would be true counterpicks. Again, I wouldn't reintroduce counterpicks just because, but there has to be some level of compromise or people would not be set with FLSS nine stages. Though I personally wouldn't mind it at all.

I wish to thoroughly explore and lab up on Umbra Clock Tower. Or another idea would be to keep our usual first seven starters and if certain stages feel as though they more strongly benefit certain characters than the more neutral stages, like so.

Spoiler: Proposed Stage List #2

Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64

Counterpick
Umbra Clock Tower
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?

This ruleset would keep our first seven stages as they have been for months with the addition of two other stages available game two. Again, I'm not suggesting the starter counterpick distinction is a terribly good one, but for a scene that is somewhat accepting of me running FLSS seven stages at all, nine would be turned out universally.

Of course I won't know about Umbra Clock Tower until it releases. And it may not be good at all, and be incredibly polarizing of a stage, which is why I have Wuhu, Delfino, and maybe Peach's Castle as backup as I feel all three add to tournaments, though I personally am a firm believer that Delfino is suspect of not being allowed again.

 

[MajorMajora]

I think as we've run FLSS for quite some months now with seven stages and looking at two stages to add potentially, the recent slight complaint that FLSS can be slightly confusing to some despite and forgetting what they strike at times when coming to tournaments often does have some merit to it I feel when looking at including new stages. If people are just barely tolerant of it with seven stages, how would I expect people to be down with the system using nine stages?

Compromise is always nice for these kinds of things. I'm looking to make a big proposal potentially this coming February if Umbra Clock Tower is legal material. Some here still do not think, with the understanding of FLSS, that Dreamland should be available immediately game one, which is respectable to me given the similarities to Battlefield enough where it does feel like you're striking from two Battlefields. My hypothetical ruleset would be this for stages, based purely on what I've seen of Umbra Clock Tower and from feedback from our community regarding our current stages.

Spoiler: Proposed Stage List #1

Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

Dreamland 64
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?

The first proposed plan for our scene is for those who deem Dreamland to be too similar to Battlefield to be available immediately. It would have more unique stage layouts, and there would be true counterpicks. Again, I wouldn't reintroduce counterpicks just because, but there has to be some level of compromise or people would not be set with FLSS nine stages. Though I personally wouldn't mind it at all.

I wish to thoroughly explore and lab up on Umbra Clock Tower. Or another idea would be to keep our usual first seven starters and if certain stages feel as though they more strongly benefit certain characters than the more neutral stages, like so.

Spoiler: Proposed Stage List #2

Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64

Counterpick
Umbra Clock Tower
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?

This ruleset would keep our first seven stages as they have been for months with the addition of two other stages available game two. Again, I'm not suggesting the starter counterpick distinction is a terribly good one, but for a scene that is somewhat accepting of me running FLSS seven stages at all, nine would be turned out universally.

Of course I won't know about Umbra Clock Tower until it releases. And it may not be good at all, and be incredibly polarizing of a stage, which is why I have Wuhu, Delfino, and maybe Peach's Castle as backup as I feel all three add to tournaments, though I personally am a firm believer that Delfino is suspect of not being allowed again.

I think what you said made a lot of sense, and easing into more stages with counter picks isn't a bad idea. In the mean time, I would also recommend trying to find some way to make stage striking easier for your competitors. A laminated sheet and dry erase markers are the best solution as far as cost effectiveness vs. practicality goes. Easy to reset each match and there's a clear, visible indicator of what has/hasn't been striked. Goes faster than random stage select, too.

Honestly I feel like Battlefield and Dreamland are different enough, between the platforms height, blast zones, and the wind. I'd argue there's about as much difference between the two as between FD and T&C. However, I could understand it being a counterpick as a compromise. It'll be easier to accept if your region ever goes to 9 stage striking.

 

[jespoke]

Honestly I feel like Battlefield and Dreamland are different enough, between the platforms height, blast zones, and the wind. I'd argue there's about as much difference between the two as between FD and T&C. However, I could understand it being a counterpick as a compromise. It'll be easier to accept if your region ever goes to 9 stage striking.

I think they are different for a lot of purposes, but they are the same in the most important aspect: The matchup against ZZS and other characters that make significant use of the top platform.

It sucks having to use two bans on the same layout when there are other stages you would like to ban too.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I would also recommend trying to find some way to make stage striking easier for your competitors. A laminated sheet and dry erase markers are the best solution as far as cost effectiveness vs. practicality goes. Easy to reset each match and there's a clear, visible indicator of what has/hasn't been striked. Goes faster than random stage select, too.

We do use that actually! We provide markers for each of these at every station for people to strike easily if they can't remember for game one. Yet people still complain because...I dunno? Anyway, check it out.

In hindsight, I feel the Lylat icon should have been upside down since many people seem to think that's how the stage actually works, rofl.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's a very pretty information sheet.

 

[19_]

Meanwhile on twitter...

And yes this is relevant to this thread.

Mine as well come down to the thread and say hi Warchamp7 . Your opinions sound fun.

 

[Warchamp7]

I see no good reason for removing Halberd after it was legal forever in Brawl. Delfino is the only stage with a proper case against it

I wanna see Midgar experimented with. I think it can add an interesting dynamic to matches

 

[ぱみゅ]

Experimentation is such an underused legality tool.

 

[webbedspace]

The main bitterness with Halberd is its ceiling. In a world where Luma could kill at 19% and ZSS, MK and even Mario could kill at 0%, it's felt that counterpicking Halberd just gives vertical killers a figurative "stat boost" instead of, say, providing any substantially different terrain for them to work with. Couple that with resentment about the claw and the ship deck's weird edge, and there's a lot of negativity surrounding it. Whether or not this amounts to a worthy reason to ban is up to you.

 

[Shouxiao]

The main bitterness with Halberd is its ceiling. In a world where Luma could kill at 19% and ZSS, MK and even Mario could kill at 0%, it's felt that counterpicking Halberd just gives vertical killers a figurative "stat boost" instead of, say, providing any substantially different terrain for them to work with. Couple that with resentment about the claw and the ship deck's weird edge, and there's a lot of negativity surrounding it. Whether or not this amounts to a worthy reason to ban is up to you.

Pretty much its a game mechanics thing I think. In Smash 4 many more characters can do combos to take advantage of the low ceiling and the hazards are more effective/game changing.

 

[TheNix]

The number of people defending the trash stages in this game is disgusting. It's also amazing how the average player of every group I've seen agrees with me about all these stages being bad, and yet there's a few people defending them that keeps them around, forcing players to ban them rather than a stage for actual counterpick-related reasoning. Some notes:

Delfino: The base platform being non-solid, allowing some characters to attack from below, is the one merit to this stage. Beyond that, it's got janky blastzones that often result in people dying well before they should, and the majority of the transformations are just too detrimental to gameplay. While camping the walk-offs is a given, some of the other transformations are just as bad for being campable. Don't even get me started on the transformation with the three pillars out in the water. I have to assume that people defending this stage are just so non-competitive that they don't think to abuse it.

Castle Siege: Not nearly as bad as Delfino, but still unplayable at best. The initial stage is mostly fine (if too small for doubles play), at least. The third stage's tilting is kinda janky, in that it can result in moves being low-profiled by characters who aren't Jigglypuff (and Puff doing it even more often) and can also cause characters to die because the stage is tilting away from their recovery. The second stage, though, is just a joke. Walkoffs in combination with the stage being massive is just hugely advantageous to camping and running away. The statues in the middle even make it harder to catch people who are running, as your attacks will be slowed down and made more punishable with they connect with them. I've heard people say that its not so bad because you can wait it out, but have you actually tried putting this into practice? This means that games on Castle Siege will regularly go to time. This is not reasonable for tournament play. Pokemon Stadium in Melee is bad enough for people just waiting out transformations. If this stage wasn't good enough for Brawl, what makes you think it's good enough for Smash 4? Dedede was not the only reason, or even the main reason, why it was banned.

Halberd: It's actually funny to me how most people think this stage is worse than the other two. I guess the stage outright attacking players just makes it seem that much worse? I respect that opinion, though, since it's definitely bad. All of the hazards on the ship itself can potentially have huge impacts on the match, and the blastzones on the regular stage are just so low that they are too advantageous for some characters.

Quick notes on other stages. A lot of my friends really hate Lylat, and I can definitely see why, but my personal opinion is that's its good enough to be kept legal, or even be made neutral. I don't feel too strongly about that one way or the other, though. I have the same opinion on Duck Hunt; the platforms, ducks, and the dog are all kind of silly, as is the camera being weirdly zoomed out, but it's probably good enough to keep around. I think my own dream ruleset would be keeping just these two stages along with the obvious five, and having all seven of them as being "neutral stages".