• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Stage Information Database and Q&A

Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
What do you guys think of removing Metaknight's ability to counterpick, and maybe even go as far as to not allowing him to choose the first game's stage?
I'd certainly say that, assuming my idea of "add more counterpicks and stage bans" is taken into consideration, then removing metaknight's ability to ban stages, or more than one stage, would retain stage viability, retain character viability, and not even nerf characters against metaknight.

Removing... Seems a little harsh.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
I'd certainly say that, assuming my idea of "add more counterpicks and stage bans" is taken into consideration, then removing metaknight's ability to ban stages, or more than one stage, would retain stage viability, retain character viability, and not even nerf characters against metaknight.
Play diddy first game.

Counter-pick MetaKnight

Oh well I already banned more than one stage because I wasn't originally MetaKnight.
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
Fighting for additional stage bans is a bandaid fix compared to the hybrid counterpick system.
 

ADHD

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
7,194
Location
New Jersey
Can you prove that he deserves it?
If I could gather a collection of "high-level" metaknight player data, see how often they won on their counterpicks in terms of losing on them, and it resulted in something reasonable--then maybe. It would have to be after they lost game 1, however, for it to prove anything meaningful because the starter stages are supposed to be the median of bias. If metaknight is winning on his counterpicks almost consistently despite the opponent already having 1 stage ban, yet losing on starter stages and game 3 of every set, what does this tell you? Not even a character so versatile like Wario would come up with reoccurring data like that.
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
In a nut shell you stage strike from the entire list of legal stages until you have X number of stages left (X must be an odd number and is preferable between 5 and 9 stages). Those stages left over are the only stages which may be counterpicked.

In list for it goes

1. Select characters
1a. A double blind pick may be called for
2. Players will ban X number of stages from the entire set
3. Players will then stage strike from the remaining stages to determine the stage for round 1
4. The loser of the previous round may counterpick from one of the stages not banned in step 2
5. The loser of the previous round may select character second
6. Repeat 4 and 5 until the set is over
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
Why is Jungle Japes banned in the new stage list? Also, adding more stages and more stage bans would be a bad idea. It would give most characters a chance to ban not only one of there bad stages, but two. most top tier characters don't really have more than two bad stages. This would cause more one sided sets and will basically force a player to win the first match in order to have a chance of winning the set
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
@Incom
Not using MK =/= Being a scrub, because using MK isn't always the best option.
Unless you know who your opponent is going to play (example, if you know it's TKD and you pull out your pocket Pika), MK is on average the best option by a fairly decent margin--as he has the best MU spread.

EDIT:


Think I'll post this here so I can refer to it in the future.

Incom's Hybrid Counterpick system:
Works best with a large stagelist.

Players select characters for Game 1. Double-blind pick may be requested. If a double-blind is requested, characters are revealed before striking stages.

Players determine who strikes first. If players cannot come to an agreement on their own, RPS is recommended, but other methods such as a coin flip or GnW hammer battle are also acceptable. Winner may choose to select a controller port first, or strike stages first.

Players strike part of the legal stagelist. The exact number of stages struck should be determined by the TO as a part of the ruleset, based on the number of stages being used; roughly one-third to one-half of the list is recommended.

Players then select their counterpicks for the set. One for Bo3, two for Bo5, etc.

Players strike remaining stages until one remains.

Game 1 is played on this stage.

For games 2 and on, the loser selects one of the stages he chose as a counterpick during striking. Then, both players have the option to redo character selection.

Continue playing until the winner of the set emerges.


Designed to get the most neutral starting stage possible, like a full-list strike, while still allowing for the stage variety of a classic counterpick system. Also, makes "Surprise, I have pocket ICs for FD!" a little less effective.

Feel free to poke holes in it.
(slight edit, full disclosure)
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
@Incom: If a characters play style is so unenjoyable that a player cannot be motivated to practice then that character will most likely not provide the maximum chance of victory. For many people that is the case with Metaknight.

@Saveme: I don't think there is a reason its banned other than people wanting to please the masses.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
Sunshade: Ah, I see. But for the rest of us?

SMJ: ... did I just agree with you? Doctor, doctor, something's wrong :p Srsly. Free Jungle Japes. Although I disagree on the ban thing. Did you read the thing I put in collapse tags?
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
The new stage list is just a bunch of stages that most people will agree on.

Literally no reasoning for banning or keeping a stage legal other than what pleases the majority.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
What do you guys think of removing Metaknight's ability to counterpick, and maybe even go as far as to not allowing him to choose the first game's stage?
Metaknight is beatable as is with all the rules we've placed on him already.

Nothing more please.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
The point? He isn't winning 100% of the tournament money because he isn't an unstoppable force of God. There have been numerous instances in Brawl history in which top MKs lose to players using other characters, and because of that, we know that he's not dominant enough to warrant any more special treatment. Any more additional MK-restricting rules wouldn't be because they're actually warranted, but because they're wanted to make the character easier to deal with.

:)
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Define "warranted", because I'm pretty sure that Akuma has been beaten as well. Characters don't need to win 100% of money to count as "overly dominant".

I asked Sirlin and he thinks it's a "borderline" case.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,633
The point? He isn't winning 100% of the tournament money because he isn't an unstoppable force of God. There have been numerous instances in Brawl history in which top MKs lose to players using other characters, and because of that, we know that he's not dominant enough to warrant any more special treatment. Any more additional MK-restricting rules wouldn't be because they're actually warranted, but because they're wanted to make the character easier to deal with.

:)
100% dominance isn't possible and isn't needed to ban him. and just because top players lose doesn't mean anything. top MK players usually lose to other top MKs.

AND....just because MK's lose doesn't mean he isn't over centralizing, which is bannable criteria also

come on twinkie, you know that :glare:
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Oh I'm not implying that you NEED 100% of the money. I just wrote that to match the "unstoppable force of God" thing.

I'm just saying that if a "broken" character is repeatedly getting beat by other characters that aren't broken, then there's no reason to take any more steps in order to limit him.



As for the actual way of limiting him ADHD, in short, I don't like it.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,633
In the way that "dominating the meta-game" means different things to different people.
the BBR should reach a definition on this term in case MK starts taking home more money than he is now
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,633
lol the BBR doesn't have that many top players.
because most were elitest *******s who felt that their opinion mattered more than everyone else because they won more
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
because most were elitest *******s who felt that their opinion mattered more than everyone else because they won more
um so top players are elitist because they don't believe in similar game principles?


I also find it odd how so many top players AGREE on things you DISAGREE with with SUCH unity, I really don't think its because they know they are better than you or anyone else but rather because they think you are wrong.

Just like you think you are right.


I also want to know why you guys think 5-6 people's collected knowledge game experience and logic in a forum debate trumps 5-6 top players who have more tournament experience, results, and knowledge that has been PRACTICALLY applied CONSISTENTLY for at least over a year (in every player I can think of's case) warrents you guys know how to make a better ruleset.

I'd call THAT elitest
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
I also want to know why you guys think 5-6 people's collected knowledge game experience and logic in a forum debate trumps 5-6 top players who have more tournament experience, results, and knowledge that has been PRACTICALLY applied CONSISTENTLY for at least over a year (in every player I can think of's case) warrents you guys know how to make a better ruleset.

I'd call THAT elitest
Its the same as how a solder may be fantastic in combat but not fit to make diplomatic choices regarding war.

Top players often make claims that due to their skill level being superior their opinion does not need to be supported with fact and sound theory behind it. They may very well be right but the issue is that players like M2K, and TKD, seldom give support for why they are right other than "I am better than you".

I would also like to point out that just because a system has worked in the past does not validate it as a system. Slavery worked in the south for years and was supported by public opinion the entire time. Does that mean slavery is a sound system to govern a people? No, it means it worked in the past and people supported it. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
Its the same as how a solder may be fantastic in combat but not fit to make diplomatic choices regarding war.

Top players often make claims that due to their skill level being superior their opinion does not need to be supported with fact and sound theory behind it. They may very well be right but the issue is that players like M2K, and TKD, seldom give support for why they are right other than "I am better than you".

I would also like to point out that just because a system has worked in the past does not validate it as a system. Slavery worked in the south for years and was supported by public opinion the entire time. Does that mean slavery is a sound system to govern a people? No, it means it worked in the past and people supported it. Nothing more, nothing less.
this isn't slavery

ADHD already addressed the issue a while ago. There is no way to articulate why they and most conservative individuals know a stage like norfair is bad for competitive play or this debate would have been settled a long time ago.

While I admit it certainly doesn't win a forum debate but their set of knowledge, skills and experience wins tournaments.

and only m2k and adhd (the latter to a lesser degree) really blatently use that as a crutch.

Stage lists debates are much the same as character tiers, I would imagine their perspective is how you view a new poster saying how falcon or ike is a good character, yet almost every competitive player knows falcon is bad and WHY, yet a new player can sit here making logical arguements all day why he really isn't, you KNOW he's wrong but how exactly are you going to articulate this belief if they simply cannot understand why you are right?
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
this isn't slavery

ADHD already addressed the issue a while ago. There is no way to articulate why they and most conservative individuals know a stage like norfair is bad for competitive play or this debate would have been settled a long time ago.

While I admit it certainly doesn't win a forum debate but their set of knowledge, skills and experience wins tournaments.

and only m2k and adhd (the latter to a lesser degree) really blatently use that as a crutch.

Stage lists debates are much the same as character tiers, I would imagine their perspective is how you view a new poster saying how falcon or ike is a good character, yet almost every competitive player knows falcon is bad and WHY, yet a new player can sit here making logical arguements all day why he really isn't, you KNOW he's wrong but how exactly are you going to articulate this belief if they simply cannot understand why you are right?
Obviously this is not slavery but that was not the point of my statement about slavery. The intention was to illustrate that simply because the system has worked in the past and people accept it, that does not justify the system.

The reason why borderline stages are bad for competitive play is because the advantage given is far to large. Top players recognize this better than lower level players do. Its no great mystery, don't make it out to be.

If you are playing using the traditional (and broken) counterpick system then the advantage given on stages such as Brinstar, Norfair, Distant Planet, and other borderline stages is simply to large. I however do not view the stages to be inherently flawed, I view the system of their selection to be the source of demise.

I am able to articulate this opinion and that is what sets me apart from many top players who will simply say "I am better then you hence I am correct". I am not making an appeal to my personal skill level, top players are, and thats why they are elitist. I am making an appeal to logic and reason. I am a diplomat, they are solders.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Uhh, the comparison to a tier list is ridiculous.
It's more on the lines of if a new player were to come in and say Ike should be banned because of his f-smash. Then other players would explain to him it's easy to avoid, and isn't broken. But the new player doesn't agree and just argues back with STFU.
Except the new player in this case is the top players, and Ike is the stages.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
um so top players are elitist because they don't believe in similar game principles?


I also find it odd how so many top players AGREE on things you DISAGREE with with SUCH unity, I really don't think its because they know they are better than you or anyone else but rather because they think you are wrong.

Just like you think you are right.


I also want to know why you guys think 5-6 people's collected knowledge game experience and logic in a forum debate trumps 5-6 top players who have more tournament experience, results, and knowledge that has been PRACTICALLY applied CONSISTENTLY for at least over a year (in every player I can think of's case) warrents you guys know how to make a better ruleset.

I'd call THAT elitest
There IS a way of playing this game that is objectively better than any other way, backed up by years of competitive game knowledge, and that is the one most liberal supporters, well, support.
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
There IS a way of playing this game that is objectively better than any other way, backed up by years of competitive game knowledge, and that is the one most liberal supporters, well, support.
I have heard BPC making reference to some sort of proof that liberal rulesets are "objectively better" however I have yet to see this proof. How can a ruleset be "objectively better"? "better" is such an opinion based standard.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
"Better" as in "more competitive depth".

There are also reasons for competitive depth being the most important part of designing a ruleset.

BPC can probably explain it better than me, the basic idea is that "uncompetitive" is only slightly subjective, so you just remove everything that is "uncompetitive" when the profit of removing it out-weighs the profit of keeping it.

That pretty much makes the only true borderline stages ones with random elements that affect matches at a high level (Norfair's lava, Pictochat's drawings, etc...)
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
If that was the case I would say a stage list consisting of Smashville, Battlefield, and Yoshi's island to be the most competitive ruleset. Saying something has "more depth" is opinion once you get beyond the most basic levels of gameplay.
 
Top Bottom