Stage Counterpicks

[Gimpyfish62]

as some of you might know, i'm picking up ganon, my ganon is pretty good and i'll have some vids out soon blah blah blah

anyways, now to the topic at hand.


stage counterpicks.

this is assuming that you'll be going all ganon vs everyone (i'll be counterpicking with bowser... wtf that sounds ridiculous LOL)

obviously you can just say X stage is good for ganon, but lets discuss counterpicks vs specific characters, obviosuly vs a lot its not going to matter much, yoshi's will suffice just fine (i'm partial to yoshis, as a bowser main)

but i was just wondering what you guys thought for specific character stage counterpicks?

vs fox in general i'd go to yoshis and pick bowser, but if i was going to stay ganon because ganon is pwn sauce would yoshi's not be a wise choice? ganon seems to get ko'd too easy off the top vs a fox, and he cant really use his down b recovery very well because the stage is so short. alternately he doesn't get very many off the top kills with anything but dair anyways, so perhaps a larger stage would be better where ganon can live longer? itsnot like fox doesn't have shine on certain stages (if only am i right? lol) but i was wondering what you might counter pick on. perhaps battlefield? perhaps one of the more obscure stages? i dont know, help me out here.

vs peach, i'd say yoshis or battlefield. small stage > peach living forever, but again, i'd like your imput. peach doesn't live forever vs ganon much anywhere lol

vs falco FINAL D FOR SURE! oh wait, nvm. i said falco. battlefield? FoD? somehting with platforms to get a bit out of the SHB, but perhaps i just need to work on PS. somewhere obscure might work here as well as vs fox, but i dont really know.

vs marth it really doesn't seem to matter much IMO. NOT yoshis ftw haha, just take him where you are comfortable, i might pick dreamland vs a marth just so i can live for a while where the marth cannot.

vs shiek... uhh, the stage where you punch the shiek player in the face IRL and break the players controller? haha seriously though vs shiek feels like a breath of fresh air compared to the bowser vs shiek match, so stop whining ganon mains XD. i'd prabably take shiek somewhere pretty small, or maybe even FoD for the platforms being there, but i dunno...


i was also wondering about how DK 64 stage might work as a counterpick, its got a high ceiling, plus the barrell (which i imagine would help a ganon to be edgeuarded a little bit harder haha) the raised sections might screw up some players, but dothey benefit ganon at all? moving platforms in the middle makes for some fun mindgames. i dunno, i'll have to check on that stage some and experiment.


thanks ganon players

 

[PoeJyle]

Ganon Vs.

Fox- go with dreamland it takes him forever to kill off the top and u can still kill him quite easily

Peach- Yoshi's story is good as u can kill her really early, but dreamland is good to she will never be able to kill u and u can still KO her at a reasonible percent

Falco- battlefield and FoD are both good, FoD stops SHL quite a bit and battlefield is bad for his recovery id say its more which stage u like better

marth- dreamland cuz its a bad stage for him and one of ganons best

sheik- umm whenever u can chainthrow her better then she can u hahaha

 

[Gimpyfish62]

lol dreamland is a good stage sounds so weird to me *bowser stages rule: small = good, up down and to the sides, small = good*


haha dreamland ftw then i suppose?

what about the thoughts on DK64?


EDIT: btw, what about vs mario and vs luigi? the mushroom kingdom in wa is too good (sas = peach, eggz = mario, ka-master = luigi, me = bowser) i suppose having a counterpick for them might be good too. nobody ever takes ka-m to dreamland because he lives so long, but i dont really find edgeaurding luigi to be to troubling, even moreso with ganon than with bowser... (platform canceled spike into auto ledgehog is too good for luigi meteor cancels XD)

should i take luigi to dreamland so that I can live for a long time, or should i take them bot to somewhere like battlefield where it may screw up their sweetspots, especially with the luigi over b...


i feel like a noob, i'm just kinda thinking online with these topics, i figure i might as well, when i first picked up bowser i messaged every bowser player i could find for advice, might as well get some stage advice for ganon.

tipmans matchups guide was less than helpful btw, we should all make a combined effort to make another one or something lol (not that it matters at this point in the games lifespan XD)

 

[phish-it]

Ironically, Yoshi Story Vs. Peach is kind of iffy. the small stage and close platforms work to peach's advantage; I mean sure she dies easily, but so do you, Ganon should survive as long as Peach and sometimes even longer.

I think FD is great stage vs her because you have a wide open space where she can't get cheap platform downsmashes on you.


Take luigi to Rainbow cruise for a fun time. He can be gimped ko'd because of the moving platforms combined with his unreliable recovery. Rainbow cruise is actually a decent stage vs. sheik as well.

 

[mood4food77]

dreamland 64 and final destination for peach and marth

sheik, any stage, just do your best

falco, battlefield, bad stage for him, good stage for you, works out pretty good, yoshi's works pretty well too

fox, any stage you want, the advantage for fox doesn'te really change, but i would say probably yoshi's

 

[Ares726]

As a Sheik player, I hate DK64 . The edges suck for sweetspotting. If you ever play me personally though, let's go to FD. That'd actually be a great mindgame. If you could own Sheik's on FD with Ganon. You will be too good. I like platform stages against Ganon because it gives me a place to reset my midair jump and continue a combo. Plus it paves the way for all kinds of platform needle cancel->aerial combos.

Some fun obscure stages for Ganon (I think) would be:

Poke Floats for it's small sides and Ganon's awesome fair. Especially against Falco because he can't SHL or get dair kills because the stage is platforms. That stage also takes away Sheik's edge game.

Green Greens because, well, it's Green Greens. You probably know the stage well being a Bowser main and it's pretty unplayed. You can get away from Falco's SHL. Fox would be a problem with his waveshine and easy up kills though.

Jungle Japes, Mute City, and Brinstar probably aren't that good for Ganon. I can't really think of why they would be good against another character. Maybe Jungle Japes against Luigi though...

 

[Gimpyfish62]

japes vs luigi actually sounds VERY interesting... i'll look into pokefloats, and dreamland will become one of my more common counterpicks.
i cant just shout YOSHIS after any match im going to lose now xD

i'd never ever ever take washington (except for ka-master) to green greens or japes though, washington would just pick fox and laser spam all day long into shine shine shine shine shine run blaster blaster blaster shine shine shine shine run blaster blaster blaster

yeah, gayness.

this is all very intersting information though, i like picking up a new character, it gives me all sorts of new things to think about.

 

[Ulti]

I've found a DL64 to be great vs Fox. As mentioned earlier, you aren't dieing for a long time, and as long as you can get Fox off the stage (and preferably below the stage), you can kill him through edge guards.

I've relatively little experience with Shiek, but I found DL64 has worked fairly well the few times I've had the matchup (didn't win, but closest I've gotten). Not sure whether it has to do with Shiek's overall rather average distance gained in her revocery, or if it was a fluke. I do better here than I usually do at YS though.



Also, I remember reading that DaShizWiz actually liked it when people counter-picked FoD vs his Falco - as it enabled him to do d-air combos very easily. He said this in regards to playing Marth, but I don't think it wouldn't true against Ganon. Also, I find I have less options approaching an opponent that camps by a low platform. They can really hinder your shffl approaches.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Dreamland is a lovely counterpick stage. Except against someone like c. falcon. Ganondorf just lives forever on dreamland.

Against fox.... counterpick with BOOZER on FD! :D! Unbeatable counter.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

against fox i'd generally counterpick yoshis and go bowser lol

i'd do the same to falcos, but i'm just saying, in general, if i were going all ganon what would be the best choice?

where would i counter cfalcon?

we do have a really good one in washington (really unknown though) i'd go bowser on yoshi's vs him as well rather than ganon, but again, IF i went all ganon, wher would i take him?

 

[McCloud]

Just to imput something real fast about Marth's story, it's a decent match for Ganon on there. I mean Marths'll try to counter pick it but you can fight evenly and might even have a bit of an advantage so I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[chu12ch]

Just like everyone else, i have to say DL vs everyone (excluding samus, but especially vs marth cuz the stupid sword's uptilt and forward smash cant hit you from below the platforms...)... and mainly because perfect waveland is at the peak of your jump... ganny ftw...

 

[Tom]

Just to imput something real fast about Marth's story, it's a decent match for Ganon on there. I mean Marths'll try to counter pick it but you can fight evenly and might even have a bit of an advantage so I wouldn't worry too much.

True... das boot covers almost the entire main stage, and reverse upair edge guarding here is very easy vs marths, and anyone really.

 

[jotun]

I actually like Yoshi's Story against Marth. The way the stage slants down at the edges makes recovery easier. Marth has to stand really close to the edge to hit you with F-smash if you place your up-B well, and by standing close to the edge he's vulnerable to being grabbed by up-B.

He's also got less room to play a dash-dancing defensive game

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'd consider most stages vs marth to be fairly even, at that point its almost just about preference. where you think you play best or he doesn't play his best i suppose... haha maybe even mute city would work XD sure he can take advantage of your recovery, but where can he NOT? a simple fair is all thats needed to make sure he is off for good eh?

 

[Ares726]

The only downside of Mute City is no ledges. If your Ganon doesn't need edges, go for Mute City because most characters like them. My Ganon probably couldn't play Marth's on Mute City though; he needs ledges and a little space to get going.

What do you think about Rainbow Cruise against the space animals? I personally don't like it against Marth, and it doesn't seem like a good counter for the Mario Bros. However, it eliminates a lot of SHL/waveshine problems. It has a low ceiling but Ganon is pretty heavy and he can kill vertically sometimes. The stage has small outside walls (the sides of the rectangluar path of the stage). Just another thought.

And yea, Jungle Japes is fun against Luigi. Not the spacies though...not the spacies.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

haha space animals on japes is to much for most chars XD

 

[Frozenserpent]

Let me tell you that ganon needs the ledge badly. Any self-respecting ganon and his grandmother can ledge tech decently.

You specifically may not be familiar, because bowser dies from his ledge techs (x.X), but ganon can realistically ledgetech against marth's f-smash, downtilt (the typical marth edgeguard moves) and easily survive. The problem against marth isn't edgeguarding, but being grabbed, faired, utilted, and tippered.

And i say dreamland may not be a good idea against c. falcon, since it's rather large.

 

[PoeJyle]

aginst falcon FoD for sure just for the fact that the plats mess him up badly and dont do much to hinder u. alot of falcons ban it tho and if so id go with whatever u feel comfortable with except FD he will just combo u across it

 

[Frozenserpent]

Yoshi's story is a nice stage, too. Even though ganon doesn't survive as long on it, he still gets simple ledge techs and cloud from it. Plus, it's a nice enclosed map, and they can't run circles around you as much.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

I prefer small maps usually so they can't run away and I can get quick kills. Big stages aren't as good in my opinion because you might be able to survive to high %'s but it's still hard to get around a competent edgeguarder so quick kills are more important to me than living to high %'s.

My two favorites usually are FoD and Yoshi's story. Any level that they can out maneuver you on like maybe poke floats or cruise are not fun for me. Battlefield is ok if you are used to the edge. Ganon excels on platform stages with the wavedash and his up aerial, up smash, and even forward tilt all being effective with foes on platforms above.

Ganon needing a ledge to recover? Even ledge teching doesn't help much nowadays since most experienced players expect it or are at least ready for it.

 

[_Riot_]

I hate Marth on Yoshi's ;_; he just kind of stands below platforms and shows off his hitboxes.

Fox and Falco i looooove to take them to brinstar

Falco i dont suggest taking to FoD although if there SHL happy falcos then yes id agree after that new thing i think Forward did with the low platforms (see his combo vid Forward's C.O.C.K) he pretty much can get off like 6 D-airs on you in a what seems unbreakable combo....you'd have to see it to get how ridiculous it is

Battlefield is my play ground i take mostly everyone there including mario (since you asked ) the platforms are perfect for messing up his U-air combos and if he has you in up-tilts at low %.

I usually always ban Final D unless its Peach

DK64 - i utterly fail at life on this stage i dont know why.

oh and i try to make Ice Climbers hate life on Brinstar too

There is only 1 luigi main in FL and he isnt quite Ka-master hah but uh id say ganon has that match up the edge guard is just toooo good i just wouldnt know a good counter stage besides perhaps Y. Story

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ya ganon def advantages all over luigi, edgeuarding is to easy on weej. even ka-s weej, and ka-s weej has mad trixies and what not... its easier to edgeuard luigi as ganon then as bowser even, which is RIDICULOUS!

lol best edgeuard vs luigi = ledge cancelled dair spike facing backwards (you get auto edgehog lol) even if he meteor cancels WAY over the edge he cant move left or right, gg luigi XD

 

[McCloud]

If MKII (insert Mortal Kombat joke) is still legit where you are... Ganon ***** there. :D

Missed tech abuse ftw.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

MKII?

o.O

*dies*

 

[Frozenserpent]

You know, I'm fairly sure, that if you ledge tech wall jump and then immediately up-b, there is no way they can do anything about it, even if they expected it. This gives you a free pass to grab the ledge, and from there you have the standard gamut of ganon ledge options.

I do this ledge tech wall jump / up-b fairly often, and, although, occasionally i mess up and do a normal tech and side-b to my doom, when i did it i always got back onto the stage.

 

[_Riot_]

i used to try that but then the people i played usually just hit me straight out of it, it is quite surprising to do to someone but after say the 2nd or 3rd time they catch on... **** that human intellect

 

[chu12ch]

Where's those vids at??? I wanna see gimpy's ganny...

 

[Samochan]

XD I can imagine a jiggs/dorf team on MK2 (it's legit on team play). Jiggs hogs the edges while ganny takes the spotlight on the center and kills everyone, then he can grab someone ang jiggs comes and restes/jiggs comes down and grabs, dorf kills. :D Wizard foot on the middle stage would kill lots of people.

 

[Linguini]

omg rainbow cruise is an amazing count-pick stage!
I used it today at a tournament and it was pretty useful because with ganon the ko's at low percents on that stage work perfectly.
Be sure to counter pick it against spacies

 

[Frozenserpent]

Riot, I'm very sure most attacks are too laggy that they can't do anything before getting hit by the up-b. Against marth, i can't think of any move of marth that hits ganon when he's sweetspotting and doesn't have enough lag to let him do anything else before ganon's up-b hits him.
Say we're facing falco... it will always hit them while they're in lag if they're using fsmash, dsmash, ftilt. I suppose they can conceivably l-cancel dair and into another dair to send you to your demise... but i never have that happen to me. It may not happen all the time, but it's helpful being able to save your life now and then.

On a side note, is fox's shine techable at all by ganon? I never manage it. I've done it a couple times playing as falco, but never by ganon.

 

[_Riot_]

Hey, ive been F-tilt >> tech >> up-b >> f-tilt from falco maybe he was lucky or i didnt up-b fast enough.
However, marth your totally right that queer bait is a hoe for the up-b

 

[Frozenserpent]

Yep. I can't get it as consistently as I wish, though. Is it me, or does every ganon player quickly learn how to ledge tech early?

 

[Ulti]

Well, it is fairly easy to do, since he rises kind of slowly and you can just hit R right before getting above the ledge.

That and it quickly becomes a necessity considering how easily he's edge-guarded.

Frozenserpent - why tech walljump over tech -> up b (no walljump). Wouldn't that be faster and just as safe for most attacks (except maybe Peach's d-smash, and multi-hit attacks)?

 

[_Riot_]

Well, it is fairly easy to do, since he rises kind of slowly and you can just hit R right before getting above the ledge.

That and it quickly becomes a necessity considering how easily he's edge-guarded.

Frozenserpent - why tech walljump over tech -> up b (no walljump). Wouldn't that be faster and just as safe for most attacks (except maybe Peach's d-smash, and multi-hit attacks)?

Well for anyone using d-smash, f-smash, or some down tilts they are usually going to be hanging a little bit off the stage

wall jump tech >> b-air

messes that peach hoe up with her d-smash along with bowser and dk doing there d-tilts as an edge guard never really have experienced it with any other character though either from teching poorly or just not throwing the b-air fast enough.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Well, it is fairly easy to do, since he rises kind of slowly and you can just hit R right before getting above the ledge.

That and it quickly becomes a necessity considering how easily he's edge-guarded.

Frozenserpent - why tech walljump over tech -> up b (no walljump). Wouldn't that be faster and just as safe for most attacks (except maybe Peach's d-smash, and multi-hit attacks)?

Cause, otherwise i can't do an up-b fast enough from the tech, because I have to shift my control stick to a bit upwards. All of that takes time. Instead, if i just wall jump tech, i can just up-b by pressing b, which is quicker and shaves off some frames, which is important because otherwise they can react in time. That, and I just developed the habit of not shifting my control stick a bit upwards. But, if i wall jump, when i start the up-b, ganon is the same level as them, so it's pretty much an instant grab (once you start up-b).