SSBM Tutorials Presents: Fox McCloud Character Overview

[stuartgreene]

like we need more foxes

 

[bound_for_earth]

i kinda want to main fox now lol

 

[Snorlaxes]

snip

We should try to all at least expand the amount of characters seen in tournaments. I know a person's style of a single character varies between one person and another, but it doesn't disregard the fact that it's the same characters used more often than Scorpion in Mortal Kombat X's launch.

snip

Look, it's totally reasonable to think that the Links or DK or Yoshi are underdeveloped. But why should the rest of us have an obligation to start playing them just because some random Smashboards poster has a hunch that there's some undiscovered secrets to them?

If you're really that sure and passionate, you need to find those secrets and show everyone else what they had been overlooking instead of just complaining about other players' character choice.

 

[Kwyk]

I played Melee since it came out, mained Kirby like I did in the N64 version, like I do in Smash 4. I know the Melee game is overrun by spacies, Sheik & Marth, and I've come to accept that there are people out there that are ok with a game that has been around for a decade and a half and only has 4-5 viable characters.

Also, most of us understand that the "low tiers" CAN'T win because they aren't programmed to be the best at competitive play. That's what Smash 4 gives people, a game with TONS of characters to choose from, in a game that's FAR from stale, with a CURRENTLY expanding meta-game, BEYOND 5 characters.

I get it, Melee is the more competitive scene, and there are reasons for that. But as for ME, I'll stick with Smash 4, where my main is more viable and the game can be balanced so as to alleviate the argument that Melee has become eternally stuck in...WHY AREN'T ALL CHARACTERS CAPABLE OF BEING VIABLE.

Lastly, for my two scents on Melee, I believe Kirby has one of the best wavedashes in the game, as perfectly wavedashing lets Kirby slide all along the ground, crouched, without having to stand up and be in the way of 90% of the attacks in game. I know Fox is "the best" but I think the other characters could have been given a little more love, and therefore more of a developed meta-game. BUT, until the Melee community adopts that same mindset, it'll still be "Game of Spacies".

Awesome Fox Vid btw!

 

[zero sum]

Sure, yeah, focus on a character who gets too much attention and keep furthering his metagame. Sure, ignore anyone under the top 10 characters and not discover much with them; I'm looking at you, Kirby players.

snip

no offense but i don't think you're understanding the intention of this video very well. nothing about this video really seems intended to further fox's metagame; within two or three months of playing this should become intuitive to pretty much anyone who's had much fox exposure. it's just a nice overview for people who are probably just starting to get into melee and probably haven't even picked a main yet.

melee's balance across the entire cast isn't great but sometimes i question how important that is. even though i disagree pretty strongly with the claim that melee would be more interesting with more viable characters, it's a fair enough criticism. it's just not something that i really concern myself with. why would i be interested in watching people pick limited characters with weaknesses that players figured out how to abuse a long time ago when most top tiers are still really underdeveloped? i think it'd be good to start developing those characters first since (a) there's so much depth to them that the top 8 + yoshi could fit pretty much any playstyle and (b) they're not as obviously and egregiously limited as donkey kong or young link. the novelty of low-tiers wears off faster than you'd think

 

[C-SAF]

I played Melee since it came out, mained Kirby like I did in the N64 version, like I do in Smash 4. I know the Melee game is overrun by spacies, Sheik & Marth, and I've come to accept that there are people out there that are ok with a game that has been around for a decade and a half and only has 4-5 viable characters.

Also, most of us understand that the "low tiers" CAN'T win because they aren't programmed to be the best at competitive play. That's what Smash 4 gives people, a game with TONS of characters to choose from, in a game that's FAR from stale, with a CURRENTLY expanding meta-game, BEYOND 5 characters.

I get it, Melee is the more competitive scene, and there are reasons for that. But as for ME, I'll stick with Smash 4, where my main is more viable and the game can be balanced so as to alleviate the argument that Melee has become eternally stuck in...WHY AREN'T ALL CHARACTERS CAPABLE OF BEING VIABLE.

Lastly, for my two scents on Melee, I believe Kirby has one of the best wavedashes in the game, as perfectly wavedashing lets Kirby slide all along the ground, crouched, without having to stand up and be in the way of 90% of the attacks in game. I know Fox is "the best" but I think the other characters could have been given a little more love, and therefore more of a developed meta-game. BUT, until the Melee community adopts that same mindset, it'll still be "Game of Spacies".

Awesome Fox Vid btw!

I think ur hung up too much on characters. Like I don't care what my character looks like, just give me the tools to succeed so I can play against the other PLAYER. The game is not decided by characters, its people. I enjoy the way melee lets me interact with my opponent in a fast paced way that includes many advanced options. When u get better at the game, u don't see a marth or a shiek or a fox, u see the 2 players interacting. This applies to smash4 too btw, im just not a fan of how the game lets me interact with my opponent. Realizing this will make u better at both games.

TL;DR: Strategy and game interactions make a game, not characters.

 

[DJ Arson]

My point is, is that I just want to see more and more people represent the "low tier" characters. I believe Melee is still quite undiscovered, with the low tiers being simply pushed aside despite their possible potential.

Maybe Link and Young Link are better than they appear and deserve the lower spots of high tier. Maybe Donkey Kong is still somewhat viable. Maybe Yoshi should be in the middle of the high tier.

We should try to all at least expand the amount of characters seen in tournaments. I know a person's style of a single character varies between one person and another, but it doesn't disregard the fact that it's the same characters used more often than Scorpion in Mortal Kombat X's launch.

Maybe there's something about the middle, low and bottom tiers left undiscovered? Probably. Look at Young Link (and to a lesser extent, Link) and Yoshi.

Probably not this game has been out forever. Why would anyone want to go to a tournament and play a character that is actually bad (because this game wasn't designed for competitive play)?

Actually though, who the heck would play a character who's L-Cancels are as fast as top tier auto cancels? (To help you out, the L-cancel of Fox's Dair is 9 frames and Links Dair is 25 frames)

You can't develop a character "in the meta" if the character was never in the meta to begin with. Get gud with top teirs and apply your knowledge of the game to lower teirs.

 

[Kwyk]

I play smash because I can play Kirby in a way that is outside his original gaming experience, while having a blast with my friends. If there aren't supposed to be different characters in smash, then why go through all the characters and make them? Might as well have made Melee with 5 different variations of movesets on the fighting polygon team and let people fight it out with them...the whole purpose of smash is the varying CHARACTERS.

As I said, I understand Nintendo created Melee and it is what it is...but Super Smash Brothers is and always was about the varying characters and the players being able to battle it out with any one of those characters they choose. Because of THAT, there shouldn't be 5 "top-tier" characters that work and the rest are broken. People still play Melee and most likely always will...but for the other people that had to deal with their favorite character not being viable for all the time Melee (and Brawl) were out...that's what Sm4sh is for.

(I'm SURE if Sakurai could patch Melee, he would have)

 

[Delta Chae]

I play smash because I can play Kirby in a way that is outside his original gaming experience, while having a blast with my friends. If there aren't supposed to be different characters in smash, then why go through all the characters and make them? Might as well have made Melee with 5 different variations of movesets on the fighting polygon team and let people fight it out with them...the whole purpose of smash is the varying CHARACTERS.

As I said, I understand Nintendo created Melee and it is what it is...but Super Smash Brothers is and always was about the varying characters and the players being able to battle it out with any one of those characters they choose. Because of THAT, there shouldn't be 5 "top-tier" characters that work and the rest are broken. People still play Melee and most likely always will...but for the other people that had to deal with their favorite character not being viable for all the time Melee (and Brawl) were out...that's what Sm4sh is for.

(I'm SURE if Sakurai could patch Melee, he would have)

On a casual level, maybe. On a competitive level? No. On a competitive level it's all about who's the best player. However, even the best players will lose to players below their skill level if enough limitations are placed on them and that's essentially what low tier characters are: power limiters.

Nobody said there aren't supposed to be different characters in Smash. With that being said however, the game will be inherently less varied at the highest level of play because players will only be using the characters that can get them results.

Also, people need to stop throwing around the notion that Smash 4 is balanced. Already we're seeing characters like Sheik and Rosalina and Luma establishing competitive dominance with some Zero Suits, Pikachus, Ness', Luigis, and Foxes in the mix with the occasional player that specializes in a character not listed here. Is Smash 4's balance better than Melee? Yes, I am not going to even try to debate that. Is Smash 4 balanced overall? No, not even close.

 

[C-SAF]

I play smash because I can play Kirby in a way that is outside his original gaming experience, while having a blast with my friends. If there aren't supposed to be different characters in smash, then why go through all the characters and make them? Might as well have made Melee with 5 different variations of movesets on the fighting polygon team and let people fight it out with them...the whole purpose of smash is the varying CHARACTERS.

As I said, I understand Nintendo created Melee and it is what it is...but Super Smash Brothers is and always was about the varying characters and the players being able to battle it out with any one of those characters they choose. Because of THAT, there shouldn't be 5 "top-tier" characters that work and the rest are broken. People still play Melee and most likely always will...but for the other people that had to deal with their favorite character not being viable for all the time Melee (and Brawl) were out...that's what Sm4sh is for.

(I'm SURE if Sakurai could patch Melee, he would have)

Stay casual then. In all games.

 

[Gimmick]

I use to enjoy Smash4 but the meta's become somewhat stale. After seeing countless Shieks, Luigis, Diddys, Zero suits, etc... It just got boring. People keep mentiong, "Oh yeah. The meta is developing. Were discovering new techs and combos... With Shiek, Luigi, and Diddy". And lets face it... You can't blame them. Why would I ever choose Little Mac if my intentions are to win?

You sound salty. I don't even own Smash 4. Plus the games meta is far from being developed, there's still balance patches coming, and new characters are being introduced through DLC.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I think ur hung up too much on characters. Like I don't care what my character looks like, just give me the tools to succeed so I can play against the other PLAYER. The game is not decided by characters, its people. I enjoy the way melee lets me interact with my opponent in a fast paced way that includes many advanced options. When u get better at the game, u don't see a marth or a shiek or a fox, u see the 2 players interacting. This applies to smash4 too btw, im just not a fan of how the game lets me interact with my opponent. Realizing this will make u better at both games.

TL;DR: Strategy and game interactions make a game, not characters.

I'm sure there is SOME strategy, but it's not like we can read inside the players' thoughts. The strategy is not visible to anyone but the person playing.

I mean, the competitors could be coming up with some intricate war plan at lightning pace and supercomputer precision, but all the audience sees is a bunch of Reflector spamming.

From a spectator's perspective, every match is the exact damn same.

 

[DJ Arson]

I'm sure there is SOME strategy, but it's not like we can read inside the players' thoughts. The strategy is not visible to anyone but the person playing.

I mean, the competitors could be coming up with some intricate war plan at lightning pace and supercomputer precision, but all the audience sees is a bunch of Reflector spamming.

From a spectator's perspective, every match is the exact damn same.

Every match looks the same to a casual player. If all you see is "shine spamming" then you really have no clue what's going.

The strategy is absolutely visible to player. They're never just throwing out moves, all inputs made by the player are intended to get them stage control, put on shield pressure, start combos so on and its pretty easy to keep up with the players.

So if matches are looking the same to you, either increase your skill to keep up with whats actually going on or stop watching melee as a spectator because you're devaluing the skill of top players and the people who know whats actually happening.

 

[cheesestalker]

thaats why marth boyssss

 

[Dandy_here]

I see a few who are so mad that their character is "Under developed", but you dont realize that a lot of low tiers were at one point viable. But, the meta changed and compared to todays top tiers they are limited

 

[Saikyoshi]

Every match looks the same to a casual player. If all you see is "shine spamming" then you really have no clue what's going.

The strategy is absolutely visible to player. They're never just throwing out moves, all inputs made by the player are intended to get them stage control, put on shield pressure, start combos so on and its pretty easy to keep up with the players.

So if matches are looking the same to you, either increase your skill to keep up with whats actually going on or stop watching melee as a spectator because you're devaluing the skill of top players and the people who know whats actually happening.

You mean the top players like M2K, Leffen, and Hungrybox who have absolute power over the entire scene's rules and change them at will so nothing can possibly challenge their positions?

Remember when there was more than one counterpick stage? Remember when Gourmet Race wasn't assaulting our ears every damn match? I do, I remember when Melee tournaments were actually watchable, but they want everyone to forget.

I have no respect for those corrupt bureaucrats because they deserve no respect.

This isn't just directed at Melee players; I'm also talking about ZeRo and Omni, who are trying to use their influence to actively sabotage the Smash 4 scene before it even has a chance to get off the ground as well.

Top players profit from a stale metagame because they don't have to learn anything new.

Yeah, they have skill, but I will NEVER respect them.

And I maintain that "shine" is still the stupidest ****ing nickname anyone could have possibly come up with for that attack. I mean, come on. I know it's rarely used as an actual reflector, but couldn't they have come up with an alternate name that didn't sound so... childish?

 

[LoveGame]

In response to all these posts about overcentralizing top tiers, low tiers not developed, etc:

As someone who primarily plays Melee, I can understand your frustration. Even I get bored of watching top 8 characters. Maybe I watch too much Smash. Unless I'm watching a live tournament, I pretty much only click on low tier stuff to get my kicks these days. Like M2k using Pichu or something lol. But as some of you have already stated, most people are playing for money and therefore playing to win. You can't be suboptimal. It's like playing Brawl offensively. Yeah, it's more fun to both play and watch, but it's suboptimal play and therefore there's no reason to do it. If you want to go ahead and play a lower tier, go right ahead. Be the next Taj, Bum, aMSa, or whoever. Don't let it discourage you, but complaining about the focus on top tiers, especially someone like Fox who requires a ton of dedication, won't get you anywhere.

You might consider me "too hung up on characters" as someone mentioned earlier and yes, that's exactly how I am. I refuse to main a character if I'm not a fan of them or their playstyle. I like FE so I play Marth. I like Pokemon so I play Mewtwo. And both those characters cater to my playstyle. I hate fast fallers and like floaty characters, so there ya go. But if it was a serious match with money on the line, would I pick Mewtwo? Hell nah. He's just a poorly programmed character. Look, especially as a Mewtwo main, I feel your pain. After his absence in Brawl I waited patiently for his return only to get a character that's even worse in a game with almost no tech to begin with. At least in Melee I can play one of the characters I enjoy from both a design and playstyle standpoint and still win. As of now I'll never get to use my all-time favorite Smash character successfully because PM is dying and SDR never had much of a scene to begin with.

Melee and Smash 4 (for now) both have horrible balance, but you just have to kinda accept that tbh.

if you want the closest thing to a balanced Smash, play SD Remix or PM the game no one's allowed to talk about.

 

[Delta Chae]

You mean the top players like M2K, Leffen, and Hungrybox who have absolute power over the entire scene's rules and change them at will so nothing can possibly challenge their positions?

Remember when there was more than one counterpick stage? Remember when Gourmet Race wasn't assaulting our ears every damn match? I do, I remember when Melee tournaments were actually watchable, but they want everyone to forget.

I have no respect for those corrupt bureaucrats because they deserve no respect.

This isn't just directed at Melee players; I'm also talking about ZeRo and Omni, who are trying to use their influence to actively sabotage the Smash 4 scene before it even has a chance to get off the ground as well.

Top players profit from a stale metagame because they don't have to learn anything new.

Yeah, they have skill, but I will NEVER respect them.

And I maintain that "shine" is still the stupidest ****ing nickname anyone could have possibly come up with for that attack. I mean, come on. I know it's rarely used as an actual reflector, but couldn't they have come up with an alternate name that didn't sound so... childish?

Someone has their tinfoil hat on.

 

[C-SAF]

I'm sure there is SOME strategy, but it's not like we can read inside the players' thoughts. The strategy is not visible to anyone but the person playing.

I mean, the competitors could be coming up with some intricate war plan at lightning pace and supercomputer precision, but all the audience sees is a bunch of Reflector spamming.

From a spectator's perspective, every match is the exact damn same.

Im a spectator and I just told u that's not the way I see the game. Every street fighter game looks the same to me, but its really only cuz I don't know what im looking at.

 

[C-SAF]

You sound salty. I don't even own Smash 4. Plus the games meta is far from being developed, there's still balance patches coming, and new characters are being introduced through DLC.

They were ur words not mine.

 

[DJ Arson]

You mean the top players like M2K, Leffen, and Hungrybox who have absolute power over the entire scene's rules and change them at will so nothing can possibly challenge their positions?

Remember when there was more than one counterpick stage? Remember when Gourmet Race wasn't assaulting our ears every damn match? I do, I remember when Melee tournaments were actually watchable, but they want everyone to forget.

I have no respect for those corrupt bureaucrats because they deserve no respect.

This isn't just directed at Melee players; I'm also talking about ZeRo and Omni, who are trying to use their influence to actively sabotage the Smash 4 scene before it even has a chance to get off the ground as well.

Top players profit from a stale metagame because they don't have to learn anything new.

Yeah, they have skill, but I will NEVER respect them.

And I maintain that "shine" is still the stupidest ****ing nickname anyone could have possibly come up with for that attack. I mean, come on. I know it's rarely used as an actual reflector, but couldn't they have come up with an alternate name that didn't sound so... childish?

Oh you mean some one could play in Rainbow Cruise with an ever camera and blast zones? Or when a player got walled on Mute City and then lost to the F-Zero racers? Or how bout when some one was about to do an aerial combo but got interrupted by an Arwing on Corneria? Ah yes true competitive smash.

How dare players want to try and make sure matches were determined by as much skill as possible. I'd rather watch Fox dittos on Dreamland forever than see players attempt to use a slow garbage character on Kongo Jungle just because "the meta is stale."

Just remain a casual who has no grasp of what it takes to be great at Smash and complain about nothing because you yourself aren't good enough.

Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name

 

[Saikyoshi]

Oh you mean some one could play in Rainbow Cruise with an ever camera and blast zones? Or when a player got walled on Mute City and then lost to the F-Zero racers? Or how bout when some one was about to do an aerial combo but got interrupted by an Arwing on Corneria? Ah yes true competitive smash.

How dare players want to try and make sure matches were determined by as much skill as possible. I'd rather watch Fox dittos on Dreamland forever than see players attempt to use a slow garbage character on Kongo Jungle just because "the meta is stale."

Just remain a casual who has no grasp of what it takes to be great at Smash and complain about nothing because you yourself aren't good enough.

Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name Shine is an awesome name

What you don't get is that I'd be willing to learn if I had incentive to. I don't, because the lack of audio/visual variety between matches simply does not hold my attention long enough.

For context, I fully support Project M. That has healthy character balance and a healthy stage selection. I can and do play Project M regularly.
Oh, but right, I forgot that you Melee players consider Project M's actually interesting tournaments, where I'm not too annoyed to pay attention and actually manage to pick up on what's going on, to be a flaw for some incomprehensible reason.

Watching a Fox ditto on PM: "Huh, interesting choice. You don't see that too often here, so I can actually see what's going on without everything blurring together in my memory."

Watching a Fox ditto on Melee: "...again? Really? There's not going to be anything new at all here. And if there is, it's not worth sitting through the same old boring strategies I've seen a million times on loop around it."

 

[Delta Chae]

What you don't get is that I'd be willing to learn if I had incentive to. I don't, because the lack of audio/visual variety between matches simply does not hold my attention long enough.

For context, I fully support Project M. That has healthy character balance and a healthy stage selection. I can and do play Project M regularly.
Oh, but right, I forgot that you Melee players consider Project M's actually interesting tournaments, where I'm not too annoyed to pay attention and actually manage to pick up on what's going on, to be a flaw for some incomprehensible reason.

Watching a Fox ditto on PM: "Huh, interesting choice. You don't see that too often here, so I can actually see what's going on without everything blurring together in my memory."

Watching a Fox ditto on Melee: "...again? Really? There's not going to be anything new at all here. And if there is, it's not worth sitting through the same old boring strategies I've seen a million times on loop around it."

I might be inclined to take your opinion seriously if you hadn't gone off the rails with your inane conspiracy theory BS.

 

[equationcrunchor]

I wonder what's happened more times: Bowser winning a Melee tournament or Ice Climbers winning a Project M tournament?

 

[PootisKonga]

I wonder what's happened more times: Bowser winning a Melee tournament or Ice Climbers winning a Project M tournament?

The latter. PM ICs are still very usable, while melee Bowser is just lolololol

 

[Zach777]

As an experienced PM player who has fought numerous ICs in PM tournament matches I can safely say they are a tournament threat if played right. The only reason PM ICs have the stigma of being bad is because of their lack of infinites which is usually what made people main them in Melee and Brawl. They still have infinites, I think, but you will probably not get the chance to use them because they are hard to setup. However, the ICs still rack up 80%-100% damage off of one grab.

 

[equationcrunchor]

The latter. PM ICs are still very usable, while melee Bowser is just lolololol

Well, PM Ice Climbers are obviously better than Melee Bowser but Melee's been around longer.