Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 03 - Zero Suit Samus - Chozo Warrior vs. Street Warrior

[Ffamran]

All right, I'm starting up the matchup threads again. This thread will be, if you haven't read the title for some reason and like clicking threads blindly, dedicated to matchup discussions on Zero Suit Samus as requested by one of our members.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from List of attacks/grabs from fastest initial frame to slowest (Frame Speed) and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frame||
Jab Combo|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|1-1, 11-20, 21-22
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|7-9 or 10-19
Ftilt|6-8|6-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|3-4, 9-10
Dtilt|7-9|8-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-16, 27-29
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|10-11, 22-24, 28-29
Down Smash|7-9|20-24
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|10-11
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-7, 16-17
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|8-9
Uair|7-11|6-12
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-49
Zair|N/A|9-18, 19-19
Grab|8-9|16-29
Dash Grab|10-11|16-29
Pivot Grab|11-12|17-29

 

[Zionaze]

I've noticed this being a troublesome matchup due to Zss's quick speed. I like to use a Reverse Fair when they recover low since it hits their blindspot and potentially stage spiking. I'm conflicted on the whole Reflector Vs Paralyzer thing because I've noticed that some players bait out the reflector and punish us with DownB, but at the same time it really does cripple her playstyle not being able to shoot recklessly.
I have a bad habit where i challenge Zss's DownB with Falco's Upsmash and fail miserably but that could be fixed with spot dodging.
I like to handle Zss as if she were Rosalina and try to pop her in the air and follow up with a relentless assault of aerials as this matchup heavily relies on momentum.

 

[DeLux]

I literally can't think of a set where a notable ZSS has played a Falco unfortunately. Might be best to wait on this MU so it's not theorycrafted to hell and back?

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I'm so glad I saw this on the side of the home page.

I actually picked up Falco as a secondary to deal with ZSS and several other characters when Ike didn't cut it. Falco has a good MU with her, and I feel like he's decent against Pikachu, Sheik, and Fox. This isn't just something out of nowhere, Falco's been a secondary for me since a week after 3DS launch, and I've experienced Ike vs. ZSS and Falco vs. ZSS many times, in tournament and in friendlies. It feels even or in Falco's favor slightly. If you feel disadvantaged versus ZSS with Falco, I feel like ZSS is much more of a bad matchup for the player rather than the character. Try playing more patiently. Camping ZSS with lasers and punishing her blaster by reflecting it shuts down a lot of her options, her down b can easily be punished by Falco (if you don't feel confident about going Play n' Trade on it, hit the air and shoot a few lasers) and your stuff is safer than hers with patience. She has mobility, but your toolkit shuts a lot of it down. Punishes anything else won't reach in time are easily made up with 1-2 blaster shots or a dash attack.

 

[Foster J.]

I had a friendly against Nairo's ZSS, and though I won the match due to a lucky footstool then it's clear that ZSS has the upper hand.

First of all she's faster, heavier, and her DA has higher priority than Falco's. It's true you have the option to combo her of a Dthrow or perhaps even Bthrow, but being how her Uair's range is a lot similar to Falcon's it gets troublesome in the air.

It's not easy to approach her to be frank, her Nair is a good move, plus the mobility of her Down Special really makes her a pain as you can both retreat or attack.

Overall it's one matchup were the punish game has to be on point IMO.

 

[Ffamran]

I literally can't think of a set where a notable ZSS has played a Falco unfortunately. Might be best to wait on this MU so it's not theorycrafted to hell and back?

Yeah, but some people have played played this MU, so basic stuff can still be discussed.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

You don't have to approach ZSS if you have lasers. It's been a spacie thing since 1999. Plus that sexy 08 reflector.

I don't know why ZSS and Falco's down airs would clank or trade. Punish it with something else.

Use lasers to punish her down special if she retreats, work on a good, consistent punish with ZSS mains or with someone doing a variety of down special stuff to help you test punish windows and ways to hit those hard, especially opportunities when you can get a free smash (even with a bit of charge) on it when it's near you.

 

[SoundChow]

The problem with ZSS is that it's almost impossible to keep up with her and land hits. Of course you can stay to one side and shoot lasers, but the stun of the laser is so short that you'll only be able to land one before she gets in with a dash attack/down-b. Her grab is your worst enemy because it beats shield and roll and will lead into forward air. Her down-smash almost has no endlag, so you'll get an f-tilt if you try to punish with a dash attack/grab. Trying to play a spacing game with safe jabs, lasers, and reflector won't work because she has plenty of options to get in. Personally, I think ZSS is one of Falco's worst matchups.

 

[Zionaze]

i think its pretty even 50-50 since not being able to approach also applies to zss. most of falcos aerials beat hers too

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Do we have some good footage of Falco vs. ZSS? We should get to challenging the ZSS board for research purposes, you know?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

You don't have to approach ZSS if you have lasers. It's been a spacie thing since 1999. Plus that sexy 08 reflector.

I don't know why ZSS and Falco's down airs would clank or trade. Punish it with something else.

Use lasers to punish her down special if she retreats, work on a good, consistent punish with ZSS mains or with someone doing a variety of down special stuff to help you test punish windows and ways to hit those hard, especially opportunities when you can get a free smash (even with a bit of charge) on it when it's near you.

I seriously don't think lasers should be used as much as you are going on about.
Not to dismiss it completely, but ZSS is too fast and rolling is the best it's ever been, not to mention the endlag, I've tried to use lasers a bit more and almost half of the time it's punished

 

[Ffamran]

Do we have some good footage of Falco vs. ZSS? We should get to challenging the ZSS board for research purposes, you know?

Unfortunately, I can't find any. It's like looking for Meta Knight, Pikachu, and Peach videos at times. Sure, they might have some people, but it's not enough. You can't base everything on ESAM Pikachu or Pink Fresh or IzoD for Peach. There's always something more from someone else.

Hmm... That's a good idea. A MU discussion where we also play each other to learn more about the MU. That's a really good idea. I'm going to ask them about that.

 

[Zionaze]

that sounds... amazing

A thread where a group of mains duke it out sharing their experiences and replays.

 

[Ffamran]

that sounds... amazing

A thread where a group of mains duke it out sharing their experiences and replays.

I'm surprised this isn't common, especially since we have online multiplayer and even if it's a little laggy, we could still have fun and learn about matchups. We shouldn't always depend on the higher level players for everything. Sometimes, we have to figure out stuff ourselves.

 

[Zionaze]

a subforum maybe? 2 moderators could set up a group of people to play or even hit the lab together and share their findings

 

[Ffamran]

We could always wait for Apex and who knows, maybe characters like Meta Knight, Samus, Falco, Dr. Mario, Wario, and Ike will gain a lot of popularity or 20% to 30% of people would be using Diddy...

Anyway, we should stick to discussing ZSS. Sure, it'd be nice to play with each other, but Smashboards is full of people from all over and different lives just conflict with when we can play SSB with each other.

 

[Zionaze]

I've been going to tournaments frequently lately, and noticed the increasing amount of Falco mains that started appearing.
After Izaws video on D-air cancelling a lot of people started paying more attention to him.

Now back on topic, just fought a Zss and found that most of the action takes place in the air. Though Fair shouldn't be spammed, its a great move that beats almost all of her aerials.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of which, Falco's aerials begin at frame 3 for Nair, 10 for Uair, 12 for Fair, 4 for Bair, and 16 for Dair. Here's the frame data thread for reference: I'll Take The Sky Any Day: Falco Moveset Data.

From DeLux's thread on ZSS's frame data: Beginnings of Frame Data. ZSS's Nair comes out at frame 10, Uair at 6, Fair at 6, Bair at 8, and Dair at 14. ZSS's Nair covers a good area, but Falco's Nair would be able to beat it along with a Bair if he can get in close. So, it'd be a good counter to ZSS's Nair, but issue still lies on Falco's short range.

 

[Zionaze]

Honestly the biggest problem for me is the Down B. It catches me off guard like shieks bouncing fish

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm, I think Flip Jump activates faster than Bouncing Fish and has less end lag if she does nothing unlike Sheik. I don't know if they have I-frames or not.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

We could always wait for Apex and who knows, maybe characters like Meta Knight, Samus, Falco, Dr. Mario, Wario, and Ike will gain a lot of popularity or 20% to 30% of people would be using Diddy...

Anyway, we should stick to discussing ZSS. Sure, it'd be nice to play with each other, but Smashboards is full of people from all over and different lives just conflict with when we can play SSB with each other.

Aye, waiting until after Apex is something I agree with. We may get our material there, but otherwise we'll have to consider our options for gathering our own data, especially when Mewtwo comes (given the nature of a new character in a fighting game, the rest of the cast will have to be altered, however miniscule, to compensate for a new matchup.)

Theorycrafting is fine by me, so long as we can reach a consensus that can't simply be defined as "6-4 slightly in Falco's favor" or "2-8 we get bodied."

 

[Jabzilla]

I never had that much trouble with ZSS. If she charges her gun, reflect it. I do a lot of empty short hops to bait her into using her grab. That is when you punish. I also block when she does her flip. Her recovery is also kind of predictable and can be easily punished with good edgeguarding.

 

[Zionaze]

learning ZSS's trajectory of flip jump is a must.

 

[Ffamran]

Can't ZSS alter the angle of her Flip Jump a bit? I know Sheik can with her Bouncing Fish. Anyway, if she can, then it makes it that much more difficult to read unless they're spamming them, but no one in their right mind would be doing that unless they're getting really desperate for a kill or something.

 

[Zionaze]

flip jump always reaches a certain height before being able to angle her trajectory, so just knowing the peak of her jump is fine

 

[Foster J.]

flip jump always reaches a certain height before being able to angle her trajectory, so just knowing the peak of her jump is fine

Even if you were to approach that angle, then she can kick. It's not exactly safe to approach her in the jumps unless you use a move with priority, which in this case would be Bair or Uair, due to if you're not following her with the Fair then she'll just flinch out of it and do a follow up on you when you land with Fair lag.

 

[Zionaze]

Fair is kind of perfect for anti flips tho

And a lot of people are not using fair because of the endlag but its extremely good as a gimp move.

 

[Foster J.]

And a lot of people are not using fair because of the endlag but its extremely good as a gimp move.

It's defo good against jumping, or shot hops, but I wouldn't use it against the DSpecial of ZSS's, it wouldn't be hard to DI out depending on how you actually hit it.

Not to mention due to it's active hitboxes, is very effective against tether recoveries, it's hard to tech against I'd say.

 

[Zionaze]

even if they do DI out of fair they get spiked sooo

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Fair still has no land lag if you full hop, I poke with it often, if you were to do it on Battlefield it probably wouldn't be as easy to get back to the bottom platform. It has to be done a certain way: fall through platform>jump>fair
You have to press the fair asap and it's a bit of a pain to not get caught by the top platform if you do it moving towards the center.

I wish it had less land lag

 

[Ffamran]

For anyone interested, I updated the first post with a frame speed comparison and a NNID/FC sharing link.

 

[Foster J.]

For anyone interested, I updated the first post with a frame speed comparison and a NNID/FC sharing link.

Might be worth while to also mention Falco's transition frames from jab to his Finisher, as that takes about 17 frames, giving ZSS in most cases an option to either powershield or counter jab you at low %s

 

[Ffamran]

Might be worth while to also mention Falco's transition frames from jab to his Finisher, as that takes about 17 frames, giving ZSS in most cases an option to either powershield or counter jab you at low %s

Yeah, I finished editing it along with ZSS's thanks to this: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

Frame data-wise, they're sort of even, but ZSS's mobility and range beats Falco's.

 

[Foster J.]

Yeah, I finished editing it along with ZSS's thanks to this: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

Frame data-wise, they're sort of even, but ZSS's mobility and range beats Falco's.

I was more or less talking about the transition phase of the jab2 to finisher, which according to the past bin happens at the 17th frame from the 12-13th, meaning there's about 4-5 frames where you can interrupt Falco or shield if you're not at high %.

But as ZSS is not an amazing jabber, she's more prone to shielding at that point, so JabJab grab might be a wise idea.

 

[El Pájaro]

Fair still has no land lag if you full hop, I poke with it often, if you were to do it on Battlefield it probably wouldn't be as easy to get back to the bottom platform. It has to be done a certain way: fall through platform>jump>fair
You have to press the fair asap and it's a bit of a pain to not get caught by the top platform if you do it moving towards the center.

I wish it had less land lag

When you full hop the forward air, there is enough time to back air or neutral air before hitting the ground

 

[Ffamran]

Stupid thing about dealing with Falco's ground speed. If he reflects ZSS's stun bolt and if she's far away enough, Falco can't catch her at all since he has to deal with Reflector's end lag, his slow run speed, and slow grab speed. Reflecting is more or less a breather for Falco, but if she's closer, he might be able to catch her... Or not.

Universal thing about Boost Kick, DI into it. DI'ing away or up doesn't do much or it might help Boost Kick connect better. DI'ing into it and maybe down since Falco's fast fall might help allows people to get out of it. Seagull Joe learned this the hard way.

If ZSS lands a D-throw, she can Uair, Fair, or RAR Bair which I don't remember seeing anyone do. Which moves she does depends on where you go. If you go towards where she's facing, then you're eating a Fair or maybe an Uair. If you go up or don't DI, you're probably going to eat a Uair, get juggled, and probably going to get Boost Kicked back to Lylat. If you DI back, this can throw her off, especially if that ZSS is getting fishy for Boost Kick kills. DI'ing back I don't think she can catch you with Bair - probably not if Falco jumps. She can try to chase you down, however. So, mix up your DI, especially if you notice something repetitive.

Her grab is really punishable, but really rewarding. If she grabs, don't roll back since it's a tether that lingers for a bit. I don't remember if you're supposed to spot-dodge or roll towards her. Now, if she completely whiffs it, then punish, but don't take too long like be stupid and charge a Side Smash. This ain't Rest we're talking about and even Rest can punish a foolhardy punisher. Ever get Rest chained? It ain't fun.