Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 01 - Dr. Mario/Mario

[Legend Vermillion]

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Feel free to contribute! I will write my early impressions later

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco's favor 6/4 vs Mario. Probably 55/45 vs Doc

Falco clearly has better normals than Mario and Doc, which is primarily what cements him the advantage in these matchups. He's also probably hard for them to gimp when factoring the buffs he got to his recovery.

Mario has a very difficult time comboing Falco at really low percents. He has to tack on like 10% or so before his D-throw U-tilt shenanigans properly work, though I don't know specifically if Falco can interrupt U-tilts at those percents. I just know before then, Falco can easily shield and roll or punish Mario for attempting U-tilt juggles at too early of percents.

This problem might matter slightly less for Doc whose D-throw puts people higher in the first place, and most of Doc's normals do better damage per hit than Mario's. Note that Doc's B-air does 14% for instance. So even though Doc is slightly more restricted to footsies for damage output, the greater reward he gets from footsies overall helps him more. Even factoring that Mario probably has some cheesy damage setups if he lands D-throw U-tilt on you at around 10%.

As for getting KOs, Falco probably should focus on edgetrapping or perhaps edge steal -> B-air. Both Mario and Doc's recoveries are rather predictable, so grabbing the edge at the right time against them should not realistically be difficult. Falco is probably also vulnerable to edge steal punishes against Mario and Doc, but their B-airs aren't as powerful, and Falco is better at landing on stage than they are. They also both have terrible options for getting up from the edge, so F-smash is hard for them to get around.

The most likely way Mario or Doc will kill you is probably via random U-smash from juggles. Maybe offstage N-air if they get a really good read on your recovery. You probably shouldn't be getting hit by anything else that is likely to kill you at respectable percents

 

[Legend Vermillion]

Falco's favor 6/4 vs Mario. Probably 55/45 vs Doc

Falco clearly has better normals than Mario and Doc, which is primarily what cements him the advantage in these matchups. He's also probably hard for them to gimp when factoring the buffs he got to his recovery.

Mario has a very difficult time comboing Falco at really low percents. He has to tack on like 10% or so before his D-throw U-tilt shenanigans properly work, though I don't know specifically if Falco can interrupt U-tilts at those percents. I just know before then, Falco can easily shield and roll or punish Mario for attempting U-tilt juggles at too early of percents.

This problem might matter slightly less for Doc whose D-throw puts people higher in the first place, and most of Doc's normals do better damage per hit than Mario's. Note that Doc's B-air does 14% for instance. So even though Doc is slightly more restricted to footsies for damage output, the greater reward he gets from footsies overall helps him more. Even factoring that Mario probably has some cheesy damage setups if he lands D-throw U-tilt on you at around 10%.

As for getting KOs, Falco probably should focus on edgetrapping or perhaps edge steal -> B-air. Both Mario and Doc's recoveries are rather predictable, so grabbing the edge at the right time against them should not realistically be difficult. Falco is probably also vulnerable to edge steal punishes against Mario and Doc, but their B-airs aren't as powerful, and Falco is better at landing on stage than they are. They also both have terrible options for getting up from the edge, so F-smash is hard for them to get around.

The most likely way Mario or Doc will kill you is probably via random U-smash from juggles. Maybe offstage N-air if they get a really good read on your recovery. You probably shouldn't be getting hit by anything else that is likely to kill you at respectable percents

I would add to your post the advantage of using our refletor against their pills although we need to be careful because he has his SideB to do the same. Anyway, I think pills can be used more often than our laser (cuz the nerfs on our gun) and also I feel our refletor more useful and more efficient than his cape in terms of using em against projectiles (also I think reflector is a solid mixup in some situations).

And a classic in this matchup is: think twice when coming back to stage with your SideB, if he uses his cape on ur Side say goodbye to your stock. This is a very important point and we must be veeeery careful. Always go edge and use some mindgames for entering stage but dont random SideB.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I wouldn't say falco has the advantage against mario. Maybe doc but not mario. Mario can easily escape falco's combos in like 5 different ways this also applies to fox. And while falco can avoid the up tilt juggles at low percents. mario will just simply up throw dair him to rack up damage. Once mario get's his greasy italian hands on falco. He'll be eating up tilts and up airs up to 60% again this also applies to fox. Not to mention marios bair is amazing for edgeguarding as it can easily stage spike fox/falco while their using firefox/firebird due to the slow startup both of them have. Falco however can easily gimp mario offstage due to his fair and bair being great for offstage kills. The same can't be said about fox though. Doc has a harder time since he's heavier and slower than mario meaning he'll be eating up tilts. However doc has an easier time comboing the spacies at low percents.

While I don't know what number to give the matchup. All I know is that it is not in Falco's/Fox's Favor. Not in the slightest. Since you literally have to play smart in order to beat mario. While Mario only needs to grab you above 12% and uptilt you to like 60%.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Mario and Doc are tough for me to adapt to simply due to the cape/jacket. It really takes your blaster and phantasm out of play in a lot of situations. You have to be really smart with spacing and use the reflector whenever he tries to fireball/pill you. I use the reflector a lot at close range to really take his projectile away as an option. Falco's Jab combo is good against mario, and I feel like he has a good amount of options in the air. Mario is one of the key opponents who can be gimped by Falco's Fair.

Once you have Mario/Doc thrown off stage I don't mind a blaster or two if they are very far out, a stun attack against them is quite devastating given poor recovery. Mario really thrives on his forward momentum and using his side B to help him get a bit of distance. If you find he capes back your lasers you can always jump off stage and reflector him, this is great because it will go through his cape/stun him for a bit of a free fall. At the same time it wont turn you around so your recovery will have a much higher success. If he air dodges your reflector Falco has a very quick and powerful back air ready to go.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wouldn't say falco has the advantage against mario. Maybe doc but not mario. Mario can easily escape falco's combos in like 5 different ways this also applies to fox. And while falco can avoid the up tilt juggles at low percents. mario will just simply up throw dair him to rack up damage. Once mario get's his greasy italian hands on falco. He'll be eating up tilts and up airs up to 60% again this also applies to fox. Not to mention marios bair is amazing for edgeguarding as it can easily stage spike fox/falco while their using firefox/firebird due to the slow startup both of them have. Falco however can easily gimp mario offstage due to his fair and bair being great for offstage kills. The same can't be said about fox though. Doc has a harder time since he's heavier and slower than mario meaning he'll be eating up tilts. However doc has an easier time comboing the spacies at low percents.

While I don't know what number to give the matchup. All I know is that it is not in Falco's/Fox's Favor. Not in the slightest. Since you literally have to play smart in order to beat mario. While Mario only needs to grab you above 12% and uptilt you to like 60%.

You just stated the exact problem Mario has in this matchup. He has to actually tack on damage to you before he can U-tilt combo you. This puts really significant limits on how Mario can approach the matchup.

Mario has bad options in midrange. How does he even get in on Falco, who outranges him with moves that are just as fast as his? What's Mario doing to punish Jab, F-tilt, D-tilt, Shine, or even well spaced F-smash? Not to mention B-air. For all the trouble Mario has to go through to outplay Falco in midrange, Falco probably is just crushing Mario in footsies and getting free damage that way. Keeping in mind that Mario can't kill you without landing a Smash or getting a gimp, while Falco actually can get KOs with his B-air. Note that Mario's recovery is very predictable and also very easily intercepted.

Also I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be getting stagespiked in this game 80% of the time. It's much easier to tech in this game than in Brawl.

 

[rolrctermaniac]

something that I find that falco has over mario in this matchup is his great edgeguarding. Falco's fast falling fair can gimp mario quite easily when off stage at almost any %. If you can get mario off stage as falco there is a very good chance that it ends up being a kill!

 

[A2ZOMG]

something that I find that falco has over mario in this matchup is his great edgeguarding. Falco's fast falling fair can gimp mario quite easily when off stage at almost any %. If you can get mario off stage as falco there is a very good chance that it ends up being a kill!

^Indeed.

Honestly, factoring that, it's probably easier for Falco to edgeguard Mario than the other way around. Disregarding that Falco isn't really losing to Mario in terms of traditional KO options.

Falco has
*Superior ground game
*better damage per hit
*aerials that can KO
*Better reflector that also serves as a strong poke
*Significantly superior recovery

Mario has
*gimmicky percent specific combos
*slightly better mobility
*FLUDD for some stage control and edgeguard shenanigans

I see this as 6/4 Falco when I analyze the above advantages.

Doc also loses to Falco, but is slightly better off in this specific matchup because his combos in this matchup are less gimmicky, and Doc doesn't lose damage per hit to the same extent Mario does meaning trading hits isn't bad for him, while it's a losing situation for Mario.

 

[Sir Tundra]

You just stated the exact problem Mario has in this matchup. He has to actually tack on damage to you before he can U-tilt combo you. This puts really significant limits on how Mario can approach the matchup.

Mario has bad options in midrange. How does he even get in on Falco, who outranges him with moves that are just as fast as his? What's Mario doing to punish Jab, F-tilt, D-tilt, Shine, or even well spaced F-smash? Not to mention B-air. For all the trouble Mario has to go through to outplay Falco in midrange, Falco probably is just crushing Mario in footsies and getting free damage that way. Keeping in mind that Mario can't kill you without landing a Smash or getting a gimp, while Falco actually can get KOs with his B-air. Note that Mario's recovery is very predictable and also very easily intercepted.

Also I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be getting stage spiked in this game 80% of the time. It's much easier to tech in this game than in Brawl.

yes both characters suffer with that problem but its worse for falco since mario can escape at any percent with nair alone. Both yes falco can outspace mario bair and shine.Mario can easily stall falco's recovery with a well placed fludd when falco's trying to side b back to the stage. He'll then proceed to gimp falco afterwards with a cape, a stage spike bair, or a well placed fair if falco is about to use fire bird. Edge guarding in this game in general is not easy due to the ledge mechanics. If marios coming from the bottom then he'll most likely make it back to the ledge since edge hogging no longer existent. In general falco has to play smarter then mario and having one character forcing to play smarter then the other leads to a bad matchup itself. I will say that falco has an easier time dealing with mario due to his amazing off stage game. can't say the same about fox though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You just completely dodged my arguments. But fine, if you want to bring up nonsense, I'll correct it.

Firstoff, I don't even know where the hell you bring up Mario escaping combos from Falco. Falco doesn't go for big combos. His gameplan revolves around solid spacing with amazing normals that inherently pack above average reward. It doesn't matter much if a character has combos if they don't have good ways to set them up.

Falco is CONSIDERABLY SUPERIOR than Mario in neutral, so he has the advantage on Mario just simply on the basis of having better attacks to hit with. Falco has better range, and does more damage than Mario with moves that aren't slower.

Firstoff, Falco can recover high in this game because SideB does not put him in freefall. Secondly, FLUDD doesn't really stop Falco from reaching the ledge with SideB unless he does it from max range or further. Third, Mario's options for edgeguarding low recoveries are weak. On stages without walls on the sides, Falco can Firebird from underneath the stage to sweetspot the ledge, which is an angle that is difficult for Mario to cover. On stages WITH walls on the sides, walljumping allows Falco to avoid needing Firebird in the first place.

Additionally, Falco can kill Mario by ledge stealing into B-air. Steal the ledge at the right time, Mario is forced off, you B-air, Mario dies. Yes this is a universal option. But Mario's B-air doesn't kill, unlike Falco's.

Also Mario has extremely bad options for getting up from the ledge, making him vulnerable to Falco's strong edgetrap options like D-tilt and F-smash. Falco is less limited on the ledge, when a good read with SideB puts him back in neutral more easily.

Falco has to play smarter than Mario? That's your subjective opinion. Falco has normals that outrange Mario's by a considerable amount and do more damage, and his recovery is considerably less predictable than Mario's. He also has more KO moves than Mario. Mario is unable to kill without a lucky gimp or landing a Smash. Falco can kill with his Smashes, edgeguarding with F-air/B-air/D-air, and just outright killing from center stage with B-air or juggling with U-air.

Falco doesn't need to do anything fancy to win. He just spaces correctly, deals damage more reliably that way, and Mario's options are significantly limited, and Falco will eventually get kills nearly free by landing a safe B-air when necessary. Mario has to work hard to get in and even attempt to set up situations where his unreliable combo game works. And unlike Falco, Mario virtually can never score KOs with aerials. Keeping in mind that because Mario's recovery is also worse than Falco's, he's not seriously winning offstage wars to make up for his lack of KO options.

This is a 60/40 matchup in Falco's favor. I recommend you learn to space better if you believe you lose this matchup.

 

[BSP]

I only played one semi decent Falco on for glory. The only thing I remember? My ground game was useless compared to his. Falco lost some stuff from Brawl, but he still solidly outranges Mario in this fight. Ftilt, Fsmash, and Jab just shut down Mario's ground game. Falco's better damage per hit is also really noticeable.

I would like to play the MU more extensively, but I'm feeling Falco favor too.

 

[Sol0ke]

I need to play against Mario more (I've been using someone's else 3ds for the past 2 weeks at school, so I can't play online) but I feel that Falco has the slight advantage.

 

[Sir Tundra]

You just completely dodged my arguments. But fine, if you want to bring up nonsense, I'll correct it.

Firstoff, I don't even know where the hell you bring up Mario escaping combos from Falco. Falco doesn't go for big combos. His gameplan revolves around solid spacing with amazing normals that inherently pack above average reward. It doesn't matter much if a character has combos if they don't have good ways to set them up.

Falco is CONSIDERABLY SUPERIOR than Mario in neutral, so he has the advantage on Mario just simply on the basis of having better attacks to hit with. Falco has better range, and does more damage than Mario with moves that aren't slowr.
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Firstoff, Falco can recover high in this game because SideB does not put him in freefall. Secondly, FLUDD doesn't really stop Falco from reaching the ledge with SideB unless he does it from max range or further. Third, Mario's options for edgeguarding low recoveries are weak. On stages without walls on the sides, Falco can Firebird from underneath the stage to sweetspot the ledge, which is an angle that is difficult for Mario to cover. On stages WITH walls on the sides, walljumping allows Falco to avoid needing Firebird in the first place.

Secondly, Falco can kill Mario by ledge stealing into B-air. Steal the ledge at the right time, Mario is forced off, you B-air, Mario dies. Yes this is a universal option. But Mario's B-air doesn't kill, unlike Falco's.

Also Mario has extremely bad options for getting up from the ledge, making him vulnerable to Falco's strong edgetrap options like D-tilt and F-smash. Falco is less limited on the ledge, when a good read with SideB puts him back in neutral more easily.

Falco has to play smarter than Mario? That's your subjective opinion. Falco has normals that outrange Mario's by a considerable amount and do more damage, and his recovery is considerably less predictable than Mario's. He also has more KO moves than Mario. Mario is unable to kill without a lucky gimp or landing a Smash. Falco can kill with his Smashes, edgeguarding with F-air/B-air/D-air, and just outright killing from center stage with B-air or juggling with U-air.

Falco doesn't need to do anything fancy to win. He just spaces correctly, deals damage more reliably that way, and Mario's options are significantly limited, and Falco will eventually get kills nearly free by landing a safe B-air when necessary. Mario has to work hard to get in and even attempt to set up situations where his unreliable combo game works. And unlike Falco, Mario virtually can never score KOs with aerials. Keeping in mind that because Mario's recovery is also worse than Falco's, he's not seriously winning offstage wars to make up for his lack of KO options.

This is a 60/40 matchup in Falco's favor. I recommend you learn to space better if you believe you lose this matchup.

Yes falco really isn't meant to do heavy combos and really isn't meant to be played aggressively as he is mostly just meant for spacing opponents most of the time. However falco does have combos(they aren't very good)



I really didn't disagree with falco's neutral game being better than marios that at all


Yes the side b buff in general helps falcos recovery from previous games. Yes fludd doesn't stop mario falco's side b if falco's close to the ledge. if falcos in the blast zone then he'll be pushed back a bit not being able to touch the ledge forcing the use of a fire bird.



I did say falco does has an amazing offstage game. However I see b-air as an spacing tool instead of a gimping tool. I personally think that falco's fair does a better job at gimping then his bair.

And yes that is my opinion. We can't really say anything is fact yet without seeing all of the tech/options it will offer later on in the future.

After much thinking I've come to think that maybe falco does have an advantage over mario in this game. I would say fox has an disadvantage since he mostly goes up close. While falco doesn't and can just space. I haven't really played falco as much in this game so I apologize if I sound rather dumb in this argument.

 

[Sol0ke]

Did you not finish your sentence or something?

 

[Sir Tundra]

I accidently posted the message before I was about to finish it. I just edited though so its all good

 

[A2ZOMG]

After much thinking I've come to think that maybe falco does have an advantage over mario in this game. I would say fox has an disadvantage since he mostly goes up close. While falco doesn't and can just space. I haven't really played falco as much in this game so I apologize if I sound rather dumb in this argument.

vs Fox is debatably even for Mario/Doc. Very debatably. Fox outmaneuvers both characters though with his superior run speed and jumps + shine stalling, actually has a legitimate Jab cancel game, and kills earlier with U-smash. More likely, he beats Mario and Doc around 55/45. Yes he's forced to fight more respectfully than Falco in these matchups because his normals are not quite as strong overall, but the overall reward he gets compared to the risk he puts himself in likely edges Fox ahead.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Yes Jab canceling is perhaps fox's greatest tool against mario as it can lead to some heavy mixups to grab. Fox does have trouble pulling off up smash mostly due to the fact that most experienced players will most likely see it coming therefore up smash should rather be used as a way to punish opponents like in previous games.

 

[Sol0ke]

Jab canceling is still possible with the Star Fox characters?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jab canceling is still possible with the Star Fox characters?

Don't know specifics on Falco yet. Fox at the very minimum can juggle people repeatedly with Jab cancel after Jab 2. I'm pretty sure it's escapable by jumping, but it does give Fox a strong mixup into either grab, U-smash, or aerials.

Meanwhile, Mario from what has been observed is a character who lost Jab cancel followups.

 

[Sir Tundra]

From what I've heard and experienced fox is the only character who has jab cancel. I could be wrong and that there could be other characters who could do in this game though. Btw does fox still have neutral air lock from brawl or did he lost that move?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link has Jab cancel D-smash at high percents. Yoshi and Rosalina can Jab cancel U-smash. Those are the other counterexamples I can think of.

 

[Ffamran]

I've restarted and reorganized the Mario match up discussion since I feel it would be too confusing to have the two discussed in one thread. Here's the new discussion: SSB4 Falco Match Up Discussion 01 - Mario - Redux Edition.

Dr. Mario's remains TBA (to be announced).