Meta SSB4 Community Matchup Chart 2015 Results and Discussion

[TheHypnotoad]

@Jaguar360 I agree that Greninja's matchups are good, don't get me wrong. But sayin he has the 5th best spread, right behind ZSS and before Metaknight, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, AND Mario...then you compare that with his Rank 13th as ranked by the other characters. You may think it has to do with under-representation, but it just seems to me like the Greninja voters were only a tad overzealous with the positive attitude. Not that I mind, of course.

For the sake of figuring out the best character to use per matchup, I made an inverted vertical spread (the ones that contain the opponent's opinions), attached it to the horizontal one, and highlighted which character to use. If you struggle with knowing which of your characters to choose, I recommend making something like this if you have the time.

Or you could just play Sheik and not worry about it.

View attachment 91911

I don't understand this chart at all. Could you please explain it a little better?

Also, I'm actually kind of annoyed that you went to such lengths to pretend that male Robin doesn't exist. You used the default icon for every character except Robin.

 

[Zareidriel]

Certainly, the top three rows are horizontal slices taken out of the chart, representing the opinions of Robin players, Villager players, etc. The bottom three rows were once the vertical rows, representing other characters' views on Robin, Villager, etc.. See attachment. I turned the vertical one counter-clockwise.



Now this is the tricky part! I invert the colors on the previously-vertical one. This turns the Light Cyan colors into (Darker) Dark Red and the Dark Red squares into (Darker) Light Cyan. Meaning that before, Dark Red Squares on the vertical bars represented a matchup where a character feels Robin has the advantage. Now, with the colors inverted, a (Darker) Light Cyan matchup square on the once-vertical bars represents the same thing. And the squares that were once Light Cyan, indicating where the opponent feels they will do well against Robin, are now (Darker) Dark Red. Basically the color inversion puts the matchup square colors in the same context and color scheme as the horizontal bars. Where all Cyans are good, and all Reds are bad.



Then I just join the normal horizontal bars with the counter-clockwise-rotated, color-inverted vertical bars. This new mini-chart will display a Light Cyan square against a matchup where your character thinks they have the advantage, a (Darker) Light Cyan square against a matchup where the other character thinks they have the advantage, a Dark Red square against a matchup where your character thinks they have the disadvantage, and a (Darker) Dark Red square where the other character thinks they have the disadvantage.

Then I highlighted squares to mark which character I would want to use. Yellow for a Good matchup and Orange for a Bad one.

At first I thought your female Robin hatred was a joke, but now...? >_> Hypnotoad, you know who I am. We're both Robin players. My entire Robin guide refers to Robin in the female perspective. I mean look at my signature, she's right there. I also play female Robin exclusively, every single day. Of course I am going to be biased. XD I put her in there as a bit of a creator's easter egg, just for funzies. I'm not pretending he doesn't exist any more than I'm pretending Male Wii Fit Trainer doesn't exist. In my opinion, just because you're "Default" doesn't give you special treatment, especially for a character that is inherently customizable.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I don't hate female Robin, I just dislike when people pretend that male Robin isn't the default.

But this is off topic, I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

 

[TTYK]

I don't hate female Robin, I just dislike when people pretend that male Robin isn't the default.

But this is off topic, I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

I dont like it either... But you gotta be wary of arguing with waifus

 

[wizrad]

Dear Charizard, Link, and Pac-Man mains,
You lose.
Love, Mii Brawler mains.

In all seriousness, the lack of a definitive Mii rule probably caused this. 1111 Mii Brawler loses to pretty much anyone except Little Mac when forced to use his ^B to recover. But when given the chance to use all of his specials, Brawler definitely beats the characters at the top of my post pretty hard.
also im the only one who voted for Brawler's matchups so just disregard that part of the chart please

 

[Bors The Stylish]

Dear Charizard, Link, and Pac-Man mains,
You lose.
Love, Mii Brawler mains.

In all seriousness, the lack of a definitive Mii rule probably caused this. 1111 Mii Brawler loses to pretty much anyone except Little Mac when forced to use his ^B to recover. But when given the chance to use all of his specials, Brawler definitely beats the characters at the top of my post pretty hard.
also im the only one who voted for Brawler's matchups so just disregard that part of the chart please

Why does Mii Brawler beat Pac-man? I am genuinely curious, because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Why does Mii Brawler beat Pac-man? I am genuinely curious, because it doesn't make sense to me.

Couldn't you have these debates in the character specific voting threads? Now that voting is over, they're just taking up space now anyway.

Also, I'd really like to hear why Brawler beats Bowser. Excluding Fsmash, can he even kill us prior to 150%? And with such short range - good luck not getting block punished for every move. And that paltry damage output...

 

[Zareidriel]

Couldn't you have these debates in the character specific voting threads? Now that voting is over, they're just taking up space now anyway.

Actually, now that voting is over, I would prefer if the voting threads were deleted/archived and we used this thread for the discussion.

Edit: As for the Brawler, he has that many red squares in his vertical column for a reason, and people know it. The Mii Brawler with free reign on specials is an extremely dangerous character.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Couldn't you have these debates in the character specific voting threads? Now that voting is over, they're just taking up space now anyway.

Also, I'd really like to hear why Brawler beats Bowser. Excluding Fsmash, can he even kill us prior to 150%? And with such short range - good luck not getting block punished for every move. And that paltry damage output...

You would be right if wizrad was talking about 1111 brawler, but that is not the case. 2122 brawler can kill very early with his dthrow combos into helicopter kick. 2122 brawler also has great damage output because of his chain grab at low percents, and his dthrow combos at mid percents.

 

[wizrad]

What he said. I will, however, add that it's not easy to combo dthrow > HK against someone who knows how to DI it properly (in), and it kills much later if HK itself is also DI'd well (down + in).

 

[Dooms]

Couldn't you have these debates in the character specific voting threads? Now that voting is over, they're just taking up space now anyway.

Also, I'd really like to hear why Brawler beats Bowser. Excluding Fsmash, can he even kill us prior to 150%? And with such short range - good luck not getting block punished for every move. And that paltry damage output...

If you seriously want to discuss a Mii matchup, the first thing you should do is state if you're discussing 1111 or non-1111.

If you do one up-b OoS that we successfully read (or pretty much anything with ~10 frames of endlag), we get an up-b that does good damage, puts you in a bad position, and can solidly kill at 90-120% depending on where you are on the stage. Considering Mii Brawler's juggle game, spacing game, grab game, and mobility, Bowser won't have nearly as easy of a time to punish things as you're implying.

 

[wizrad]

Basically, Brawler eats up all big, heavy characters.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well yeah, with a custom move. I was only talking about default because that's all I'd ever have to research. And that character can't get reasonable kills.

Hopefully the next time this project happens, we don't drop the ball and allow some players to vote with their custom moves in mind while everybody else doesn't.

 

[Dooms]

Well yeah, with a custom move. I was only talking about default because that's all I'd ever have to research. And that character can't get reasonable kills.

Hopefully the next time this project happens, we don't drop the ball and allow some players to vote with their custom moves in mind while everybody else doesn't.

If you're discussing a 1111 mii matchup, you're wasting your time lmao. Also the project is fine considering there are multiple regions that allow miis to use their alternate specials. Just because it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean that it doesn't apply in general. :v

 

[Zareidriel]

Hopefully the next time this project happens, we don't drop the ball and allow some players to vote with their custom moves in mind while everybody else doesn't.

I don't consider that decision a "dropping of the ball" whatsoever. I had my reasons for doing that, and I still stand by them. You're free to disagree, of course.

 

[wizrad]

Well yeah, with a custom move. I was only talking about default because that's all I'd ever have to research. And that character can't get reasonable kills.

Hopefully the next time this project happens, we don't drop the ball and allow some players to vote with their custom moves in mind while everybody else doesn't.

Who said anything about custom moves?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't consider that decision a "dropping of the ball" whatsoever. I had my reasons for doing that, and I still stand by them. You're free to disagree, of course.

Well, yeah, I disagree with bending the rules freely. When asked whether you should consider miis as customs on or customs off, the rule can't be "whatever you feel comfortable with". Why neglect to make a rule for them? If it's because you want to support more generous rulesets you should have just made custom miis part of the project. That would be much more okay than not making any rule at all. The data surrounding these three characters is now ineffective, because it concerns two different Brawlers, Swordfighters, and Gunners. Please don't sabotage yourself the next time.

And I already brought it up, but also please remember not to accept "even" votes and later decide those don't count. I'm uncomfortable with you deciding for me based on outside sources when I could have made the choice in the first place.

Who said anything about custom moves?

I really hope you're not the precious sort who's about to drop an argument about how Miis aren't tied to custom moves. Even if that's how you feel, it's still semantically "custom" moves.

But if you're instead implying 1111 Brawler has an advantage over Bowser, I have good testimony from a Brawler main in this thread that says otherwise:

1111 Mii Brawler loses to pretty much anyone except Little Mac when forced to use his ^B to recover.

If you want an actual discussion of the matchup, I'm really not willing to talk about it here, in a non character-focused sub-forum. Because we get to talking and some random user comes in with the faintest idea of how the two actually work, and it's just messy. You have a character MU thread? That's the way to go. We can even talk about the custom moves version too, there's so much to cover. And if not, that's fine too. I'm not about to lose sleep either way.

 

[Zareidriel]

Well, yeah, I disagree with bending the rules freely. When asked whether you should consider miis as customs on or customs off, the rule can't be "whatever you feel comfortable with". Why neglect to make a rule for them? If it's because you want to support more generous rulesets you should have just made custom miis part of the project. That would be much more okay than not making any rule at all. The data surrounding these three characters is now ineffective, because it concerns two different Brawlers, Swordfighters, and Gunners. Please don't sabotage yourself the next time.

And I already brought it up, but also please remember not to accept "even" votes and later decide those don't count. I'm uncomfortable with you deciding for me based on outside sources when I could have made the choice in the first place.

I really hope you're not the precious sort who's about to drop an argument about how Miis aren't tied to custom moves. Even if that's how you feel, it's still semantically "custom" moves.

The rule was not neglected, it was quite well thought-out. I don't want to support more generous rulesets. I don't want to support less generous rulesets. I don't want to support any ruleset or agenda. What I want are the real feelings about matchups, from real people, whether they used 1111 Brawler or All-Specials Brawler. If I declare it to be 1111, the All-Specials Brawler would be excluded from the voting. And vice-versa. If I ruled it to be 1111 Brawler, Rosalina mains who fight only All-Specials Brawler would feel like their vote for their matchup against Brawler would be inaccurate, and choose not to vote on the Mii Fighters at all. This happened more often than you would think. And vice-versa. More exclusion means less votes. And trust me, when it comes to the Mii Fighters, I need all the votes I can get, I believe I got about 1-3 votes for each Mii Fighter.

I completely disagree that making a hard ruling on either one would have been the best solution. And indeed, regardless of which ruling we used, it would have been impossible to get good results with as few votes as was received.

As for the "even votes" thing, I, too have brought that up, twice:

However, I did make the mistake of taking neutral votes (0/=) from the beginning of the voting process, something I would not have done if I knew I would end up deciding to display the chart in terms of only positive and negative. I believe we would have had more accurate results if I had done so. Completely my fault. もうしわけありません

Yeah sorry about that Zapp. Starting the chart was a pretty impulsive move and I didnt put a lot of forethought into it.

And as for the precious sorts...no need to be disrespectful to a widely-held opinion, regardless of your feelings on the matter, whether you feel the opinion is dumb or so forth, it doesn't help your argument if you resort to name-calling. Since Mii Fighters are able to use all of their special moves with "CUSTOMS OFF" then I would say, in the context of the game, they are not "CUSTOM". Even if they are "CUSTOM" in the context of the English Language as much as your breakfast this morning was "CUSTOM" as well.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Sonic vs Ike matchup confuses me. Results show that Ike wins, so why does Sonic have the advantage?

 

[Halifax?]

Now lets arrange it by the new tier list.

 

[Zareidriel]

Sonic vs Ike matchup confuses me. Results show that Ike wins, so why does Sonic have the advantage?

Thank you for pointing out that mistake, Ike players actually did vote that they win that matchup. I'll make sure to update the chart with that correction.

If anyone else thinks they found a mistake, please let me know~

Now lets arrange it by the new tier list Kappa

I'm so sorry to whoever ends up doing that

I was actually interested in making a version of the chart, listed from best self-perceived matchups to worst. I think it would be a semi-accurate reflection of the actual tier list. But it would have to wait until my current project (completely rewriting my Robin guide) is finished, unless someone else wants to make it in the meantime.

 

[Halifax?]

Zareidriel

Merry Christmas

If you want the link to be able to edit the doc I can pm it to you

 

[Zareidriel]

Oh, well thank you! That's very cool! Sure I'll take that link, I might need it.

 

[snuffysam]

One issue with the chart (although this is a problem with Sm4sh matchup charts in general, not specifically yours), is that it's completely unreadable. I literally needed two screens.

That being said, nice idea with the inverted sideways edit. That was pretty cool.

I might end up making an HTML5 program to make that sort of thing easier...

 

[haelcher]

I attempted to use just this matchup data to create a "weighted" tier list I could compare to the official one that was posted recently. My methods:

• Average the results from each side of the matchup, essentially turning disagreements on matchups into 0s.
• Add up the rows to receive an initial value.
• Used these values to assign weights to certain matchups (i.e. make matchups against Sheik count more than matchups against Zelda). I set it up so that losing every matchup had a weight of 0 and winning every matchup had a weight of 2. This kept the average weight as 1.
• Apply those weights to make a new chart, then add up those rows to get the final order.
• Make tiers based on the average and standard deviation of the new values.

My results:

S Tier


A Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier


E Tier


F Tier


G Tier


H Tier



Notes:

• Cloud's placement was primarily to even out the plus/minus I made when comparing this to the official tier list.
• Bowser, DK, Ryu, Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Bowser Jr, and Peach are all 10 or more spots below their official tier list rankings.
• Mii Brawler, Dr Mario, Mii Gunner, Greninja, Jigglypuff, and Lucas were all 10 or more spots higher than their official tier list rankings.
• The "average" rating occurs between ROB and Peach.

 

[Zareidriel]

Very cool! Interesting results, like how Rosa isn't in A Tier, but as a whole it seems pretty analogous to the Smashboards list. I like the "weights", how beating Sheik is worth more points on the list, etc; that provides a very interesting look at facets of matchups/tier lists that is probably mostly unexplored.

 

[Vinylic.]

Well, since this is the proper place to put it.....

I used tier list maker to create an MU Chart based on my history of sets. It was out of boredom and such. Others liked it and decided to make their own, so I'm spreading this out and see if any of you want to do this as well. Some /r/smashboards users are agreeing to it, CFL SM4SH Facebook group are putting thier inputs and Character Discord Servers are putting theirs too. Maybe you should too?

Here's the format:

Here's my MU Chart for Kirby as an Example: http://i.imgur.com/TCEMS0l.png

-3: Large Disadvantage

-2: Medium Disadvantage

-1: Small Disadvantage

0: Even

+1: Small Advantage

+2: Medium Advantage

+3: Large Advantage

+4 or -4: GG. This is mostly unused.

You don't have to add in +/-3 if you feel like your character has any large disadvantage against any character.

That's all for now. Blah. I hope you are okay with this idea.

 

[divade]

Well, since this is the proper place to put it.....

I used tier list maker to create an MU Chart based on my history of sets. It was out of boredom and such. Others liked it and decided to make their own, so I'm spreading this out and see if any of you want to do this as well. Some /r/smashboards users are agreeing to it, CFL SM4SH Facebook group are putting thier inputs and Character Discord Servers are putting theirs too. Maybe you should too?

Here's the format:

Here's my MU Chart for Kirby as an Example: http://i.imgur.com/TCEMS0l.png

-3: Large Disadvantage

-2: Medium Disadvantage

-1: Small Disadvantage

0: Even

+1: Small Advantage

+2: Medium Advantage

+3: Large Advantage

+4 or -4: GG. This is mostly unused.

You don't have to add in +/-3 if you feel like your character has any large disadvantage against any character.

That's all for now. Blah. I hope you are okay with this idea.

Your chart is more about your own findings for just mario, that will fit better it the mario character board.

Any chance of trying to get the community to do this again Zareidriel ? Discord may make it easier if done a special way. Maybe?

 

[Zareidriel]

Vinylic. I have seen these charts around, they're pretty popular. I'm not sure what you're asking me to do though, make 58 separate little charts or something?

Yes divade I do plan on doing it again. Wow it's already been about a year already eh? Well in any case it's gonna be another few months before I start, I'm behind on so many of my own projects (particularly my Robin guide) and I've barely recovered from the last time we did this. Probably aiming to start the new one around January 2017. But yeah Discord is a good idea, I've got some other ideas I've been kicking around that should make things much faster and easier than last time.

 

[divade]

Vinylic. I have seen these charts around, they're pretty popular. I'm not sure what you're asking me to do though, make 58 separate little charts or something?

Yes divade I do plan on doing it again. Wow it's already been about a year already eh? Well in any case it's gonna be another few months before I start, I'm behind on so many of my own projects (particularly my Robin guide) and I've barely recovered from the last time we did this. Probably aiming to start the new one around January 2017. But yeah Discord is a good idea, I've got some other ideas I've been kicking around that should make things much faster and easier than last time.

I see, lemme know if I can help, I'd like to see this more referenced like the pkmn type chart.