Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Bones0]

The more I play Squirtle, the less I like dtilt. It just seems to get CCed a lot. Did its strength get nerfed from the previous version?

I'm fine with the shield damage/stun his aerials do. They're so easy to space that I never find myself getting shield grabbed unless I dair on shield (which I unfortunately do ALL the time lol). Uair is also probably pretty easy to shield grab but I don't do that at all. I feel like this is a difference between P:M's shielding and Melee's. Shield grabbing just seems really weird. Not sure if it's the sliding or shield DI or what.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Funny, (auto-cancel) d-air is the one aerial I like on shield because you can drift out of grab range or behind them (although usually that's combined with strong momentum in some direction). F-air and n-air are literally impossible to "space" because they don't outrange grab; I don't see how you could threaten someone's space without putting yourself in danger. I don't have frame data so I don't know how safe late n-air/f-air are (and the Brawl shield animations/sounds disorient me a little bit), but what exactly do you mean when you say "easy to space"?

B-air can be spaced, but that doesn't cover many options unless your opponent is cornered at the ledge.

 

[Bones0]

Funny, (auto-cancel) d-air is the one aerial I like on shield because you can drift out of grab range or behind them (although usually that's combined with strong momentum in some direction). F-air and n-air are literally impossible to "space" because they don't outrange grab; I don't see how you could threaten someone's space without putting yourself in danger. I don't have frame data so I don't know how safe late n-air/f-air are (and the Brawl shield animations/sounds disorient me a little bit), but what exactly do you mean when you say "easy to space"?

B-air can be spaced, but that doesn't cover many options unless your opponent is cornered at the ledge.

Idk, I never have problems spacing fair. It seems to have decent range and decent pushback. Nair I literally don't use at all in most of my games. I still have to work on incorporating that. lol

When I fair/bair on shields, I just wait for their OoS option. Any rolls in you can react to, spotdodges and rolls away can be punished by grab and/or withdraw and/or WD utilt/whatever move you want. Jump OoS is more complex because it often involves platforms and each character's jump OoS tends to be dealt with a lot more uniquely than dodges. Most of the time, I try to just chase them into the air and aerial them, though staying on the ground and punishing their inevitable landing is also quite effective.

If they insist on holding shield, I'm content to run up and grab them, and a quick SH bubble is also great because it seems to poke pretty often and allows for you to still cover any dodges they may do as soon as you jump with a withdraw. If you feel like you can't tell when/if they will do their OoS option, withdraw is safe enough on shield that you can opt for that, but I try not to do it because it feels like suboptimal cheese and I prefer to just "get better" and pick the best option instead of the easiest. You can obviously just withdraw every wakeup/tech option and at worst come out having bounced off their shield, but that just doesn't seem like a good way to play because you limit yourself to basically getting hard reads when there are potentially harder methods that allow you to cover more options.

 

[SpiderMad]

I need a frame data/gif thread. The armor on Nair is hard to calculate a good situation for it since I think it can be broken by most aerials/recovery moves idk, it might be his best combo escape move and 2nd or so to best edge guarding move besides down-b

 

[Kyu Puff]

Idk, I never have problems spacing fair. It seems to have decent range and decent pushback. Nair I literally don't use at all in most of my games. I still have to work on incorporating that. lol

Are you talking about rising f-air or landing f-air? I can imagine a situation where you f-air their shield on the way up and drift out of their range, which could put you in a decent position. I was talking about a different situation though, where you're approaching from the air and they put a shield up; in that case I've been finding withdraw is the safest option by far.

N-air is really good for edgeguarding, seems to hit at a pretty low angle and the hitbox stays out for a while. I haven't really tested to see which recovery moves can hit through the armor, but most vertical recovery moves are vulnerable from underneath, so if you drop down and use a rising n-air (thanks to Squirtle's huge second jump) you can mess up a lot of recoveries.

When I fair/bair on shields, I just wait for their OoS option. Any rolls in you can react to, spotdodges and rolls away can be punished by grab and/or withdraw and/or WD utilt/whatever move you want. Jump OoS is more complex because it often involves platforms and each character's jump OoS tends to be dealt with a lot more uniquely than dodges. Most of the time, I try to just chase them into the air and aerial them, though staying on the ground and punishing their inevitable landing is also quite effective.

If they insist on holding shield, I'm content to run up and grab them, and a quick SH bubble is also great because it seems to poke pretty often and allows for you to still cover any dodges they may do as soon as you jump with a withdraw. If you feel like you can't tell when/if they will do their OoS option, withdraw is safe enough on shield that you can opt for that, but I try not to do it because it feels like suboptimal cheese and I prefer to just "get better" and pick the best option instead of the easiest. You can obviously just withdraw every wakeup/tech option and at worst come out having bounced off their shield, but that just doesn't seem like a good way to play because you limit yourself to basically getting hard reads when there are potentially harder methods that allow you to cover more options.

Maybe I need to see a video to understand what you mean, because I have a feeling we're talking about different kinds of situations.

I don't see withdraw as "suboptimal cheese", because in some situations it is strictly better than the alternatives. You can control the amount of space you put between yourself and the opponent, quickly cross up their shield, and retreat to an untouchable distance if necessary. If they spotdodge or wd back you don't risk whiffing an aerial and getting grabbed.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe I need to see a video to understand what you mean, because I have a feeling we're talking about different kinds of situations.

I don't see withdraw as "suboptimal cheese", because in some situations it is strictly better than the alternatives. You can control the amount of space you put between yourself and the opponent, quickly cross up their shield, and retreat to an untouchable distance if necessary. If they spotdodge or wd back you don't risk whiffing an aerial and getting grabbed.

I am talking about late aerials on shield which I was pretty sure what you were talking about.

The bolded part is why I refer to defaulting to withdraw as cheese. It's an easy goto option that will almost always keep you safe, but you have to also keep in mind that you are potentially giving up stage control when you go for every possible withdraw attack. Having the opponent shield it and just move away after you bounce on them just doesn't seem like a better course of action than simply outsmarting them and attacking in such a way that it will lead to more reliable punishes.

 

[Kyu Puff]

But you don't have to move away from them; you can control the amount of distance withdraw puts between you and your opponent. The fact that it puts you behind their shield is also useful. Afterwards, you can land and wait for a reaction, but from a safer position, or space b-air with whatever timing, etc.

I'll experiment with different timings of f-air later today, because it's possible I'm just throwing it out too early. But I'm still not clear on what you mean by "spacing" a move that can't simultaneously threaten their jump/wd oos options and be outside of shieldgrab range.

 

[Burnsy]

Just in case anyone didn't know, Squirtle can make it back from PS2's column and the very bottom of FoD with a few wall climbs and a wall cling>double jump> reverse up-b

Also if you don't know how to wall climb with Squirtle I suggest you learn, because it is invaluable considering how many legal P:M stages have walls. Knowing your way around wall cling in general is very useful for this character.

 

[SpiderMad]

Just in case anyone didn't know, Squirtle can make it back from PS2's column and the very bottom of FoD with a few wall climbs and a wall cling>double jump> reverse up-b

Also if you don't know how to wall climb with Squirtle I suggest you learn, because it is invaluable considering how many legal P:M stages have walls. Knowing your way around wall cling in general is very useful for this character.

I saw u using Side-b cancel Side-b cancel wall recovering on Draculas. I wonder if I could have saved myself a few SDs on Ps2 when I miss my Side-b back on stage by going too short and then go for the reverse Up-b for the ledge (which almost never catches) and instead go for the column: would it require your double jump though? And you would have to go for a reverse Up-b using that as well right. You should make a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmCWqHZCRYA

 

[Burnsy]

Wall cling grants double jump, so if you can make it to the wall then whether or not you have or used one is irrelevant.

You could have also meant "is it not possible without using double jump"? I think that is the case, but I didn't test extensively. I'm almost certain that it is necessary on PS2 because of how far you must weave away from the wall before you up-b.

On PS2 you must reverse up-b. Not sure if a regular up-b method is possible there. I dont really feel like his reverse up-b is that hard to catch the ledge with.

 

[Nausicaa]

Squitle will be CUTER in 3.0
Only buff

 

[JayMan-X]

bump?
time to start discussing 3.0 Squirtle! Personally, im really loving the shorter dash, it really helps make Shellshifting actually useful

 

[Burnsy]

I'd argue it was plenty useful before, but it certainly helps.

I got too used to 2.6 squitle, this one feels really weird to me, but I'm thinking its mostly the stage collision detection fix compensation. Anyone think he cant double jump as high as before?

 

[SpiderMad]

I'd argue it was plenty useful before, but it certainly helps.

I got too used to 2.6 squitle, this one feels really weird to me, but I'm thinking its mostly the stage collision detection fix compensation. Anyone think he cant double jump as high as before?

He felt pretty decent, withdraw's short hop goes a lot higher though along with his full jump in it going crazy high. I feel the shorter 2.6 withdraw SH version was more useful. Gonna miss 2.6 d-smash too

 

[Zwarm]

Personally I was lucky enough to playtest this version of Squirtle as he was being changed, so I'm already pretty used to how he feels. But the shorter dash was actually a pleasant surprise, and I feel it gives Squirtle a much more versatile neutral game, and makes his shell shift approaches a little less predictable.

Burnsy - I'm pretty sure his jump is the same height, he just falls faster now to compromise the SCD fixes iirc.

And I honestly didn't even know Squirtle could jump out of his Withdraw until like a week ago, so I don't notice a difference with the grounded Withdraw. Aerial Withdraw doesn't fall as fast, I like it.

Overall I love this new Squirtle, gonna start taking names with my purple Squirtle <3

And Icy-saur, but that's a different story. I'm gonna be the best Pokemon Trainer out there.

 

[SSB_Hello]

So having been playing Squirtle since starting PM, I was pleasantly surprised at a few things.

1. Grab range increase. It's a small but nice QoL buff. I can not recall the difficulty it is, trying to grab good players that space such a -small- grab range. You end up punished for such a small range that is unfair almost at times. Jiggly had a longer grab then squirtle.

2. Shell dance. Took a while of fooling around to get used to, but I love it. Thank you guys, for allowing us to not have to commit to use our dashing 'neat' mechanic.

3. Down smash. RIP.

4. Ceilings being raised hurts our kill moves. We need more side stage killing power. I propose a buff to knock back on side A.

5. Gravity. Holy ****, it's a small thing but no longer are we able to be comboed helplessly because of our weight, no matter the DI. Falcon players abused us with this weight.

Overall, I like the changes. Going to continue using pink squirtle though, and making us squirtle mains proud.

 

[Burnsy]

I am initially not a fan of withdraw dropping slowly, but I'm willing to give it some time. It seems as though it has potential, but the way that his 2.6 withdraw dropped quickly had many benefits.

Also dsmash was borderline broken before, so I welcome the change. I dont think its really that bad, just considerably less safe on sheild.

 

[SSB_Hello]

I am initially not a fan of withdraw dropping slowly, but I'm willing to give it some time. It seems as though it has potential, but the way that his 2.6 withdraw dropped quickly had many benefits.

Also dsmash was borderline broken before, so I welcome the change. I dont think its really that bad, just considerably less safe on sheild.

Downsmash was very broken. It's just, you know. RIP.

 

[Zwarm]

It's really not even RIP, it's still VERY good, and can still be safe on shield if you give em a nice jab or ftilt afterwards, it's just not instant like before. I barely even notice a difference, really.

Also darker shades = major buff

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle had a rather large grab range in 2.5/2.6; the issue was that since he leaned forward so far, he wouldn't grab some characters if they were right on top of him. 3.0 just gave him a grab-box further back on his body, not further forward.

 

[SpiderMad]

And I honestly didn't even know Squirtle could jump out of his Withdraw until like a week ago, so I don't notice a difference with the grounded Withdraw.

You mean hop while in Withdraw?

 

[Zwarm]

You mean hop while in Withdraw?

Yes, I literally didn't know he had that option until last week. I'm a pretty bad Squirtle main it seems

 

[SpiderMad]

Funny cus when I discovered there being a SH version and a FH version of the withdraw hop I felt like posting it but didn't. I'll be sure to post everything now O_O

 

[SSB_Hello]

Squirtle had a rather large grab range in 2.5/2.6; the issue was that since he leaned forward so far, he wouldn't grab some characters if they were right on top of him. 3.0 just gave him a grab-box further back on his body, not further forward.

I'm okay with this.

 

[Nausicaa]

I saw someone comment on how vertical blast-zone increases hurt Squirtle, but I don't understand that thought process.
Aside from AJ, almost everything is off the sides, this is good for Squirt. Same with the Shield thing.

I like WDing out of Withdraw, but never used Withdraw much anyway. Now that he can do short-distance pressure so interestingly with the SS stuff, I might try incorporating it more, since I don't have to focus on timing so much. Fun move, this whole patch was just all about fun it seems.

 

[Burnsy]

To be fair, squirtle also gets a lot of usmash kills. I agree that his horizontal killing is quite good (& frequently underrated) and higher ceilings ae probably a net benefit to him.

SS is a very deep and rewarding mechanic and I believe that it's mastery is key to succeeding with Squirtle. It was just in the past few weeks that I realized the significance of him being able to JC or standing pivot cancel during his shell hitbox. It gives the shell hitbox somewhat of shine-like abilities where you can cancel a hitbox into many different options (all grounded or aerial options for SS)

 

[SSB_Hello]

To be fair, squirtle also gets a lot of usmash kills. I agree that his horizontal killing is quite good (& frequently underrated) and higher ceilings ae probably a net benefit to him.

SS is a very deep and rewarding mechanic and I believe that it's mastery is key to succeeding with Squirtle. It was just in the past few weeks that I realized the significance of him being able to JC or standing pivot cancel during his shell hitbox. It gives the shell hitbox somewhat of shine-like abilities where you can cancel a hitbox into many different options (all grounded or aerial options for SS)

Squirtle also gets a lot of down throw kills. The way you need to DI it is rather hard to predict.

Shine Shell is awesome too.

 

[Burnsy]

Dthrow kill is nice when you can need or it just works out in a combo, but I think that if you can find ways of killing them earlier it would be more optimal.

 

[Bones0]

Did they do anything with crawl attack? I'm betting they didn't, but I wish they would have made it his low-angled ftilt.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

- Crawl Attack’s input made easier

...Whatever that means. I'm actually not sure how a crawl tilt could be made easier as an input.

 

[Burnsy]

The crawl tilt change is great. cmart explained to me that what they did was allow for you to input the attack as squirtle begins crouching, rather than having to wait for the crouch to finish before pressing. Not only does it make the move less awkward to immediately go into, it also effectively reduces the "actual" startup of the move.

 

[Bones0]

The crawl tilt change is great. cmart explained to me that what they did was allow for you to input the attack as squirtle begins crouching, rather than having to wait for the crouch to finish before pressing. Not only does it make the move less awkward to immediately go into, it also effectively reduces the "actual" startup of the move.

Then how do you dtilt?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You would hold Down instead of Down-Forward. The only difference from before is that you can Crawl Tilt during the "I'm starting to crouch" animation (which can be started with Down-Back, Down, or Down-Forward).

 

[Bones0]

Okay, cool, basically sounds like a LA ftilt.

 

[SSB_Hello]

Down throw is a good kill move, idk what you're implying. On stages with a moderate ceiling, if they don't DI it properly, can kill at 90%-100% Works great at the end of the combo.

 

[Burnsy]

I'm implying that against very good opponents and in specific matchups, the grab can be somewhat difficult to get in neutral when you don't have a lot of range to threaten. I'm not saying it isn't good at killing, I'm saying that it isn't something to rely on in these circumstances . Especially if you can create for yourself a gimping opportunity . Squirtle has a lot of versatility in how he gets kills, I dont really think any kill move he has stands out from the others much.

 

[Sir Skaro]

So, you guys probably already knew you can do this, but I found a way to make Squritle leap back and forth across the entire stages rapidly by combining a few tricks. It's not really useful for combat (I guess you could incorporate it in lower level play), but it could be used to psych out your opponent during a star KO. Make them think "My gosh, that thing waddles to walk but it puts Usain Bolt to shame. And now it's wearing shades."

Tricks to know: long SS stall (the one with the C-stick) & reverse SS jump cancel (RSSJC, I'm coining it right now.)

How to perform: Make sure you are holding all the appropriate inputs to do a long SS stall. Perform the long SS stall, but do a RSSJC before Squirtle stops moving but far enough into the animation where Squirtle picks up more momentum than he had while running. This will sling you across the stage just like a normal RSSJC. However, if you are still holding the inputs for that long SS stall, Squirtle can perform this SS much earlier in his dashing animation than his normal SS, and it can be RRSSJCd. Since the jump is a backwards jump, there is no need to change the direction Squirtle is facing if you want to RSSJC the other way, so you can do this RSSJC as many times as you like (granted you don't mess up) and you always get maximum distance if your timing is right. If you perform a reverse Fsmash, then you jumped the gun with the C-stick.

So maybe you guys knew, maybe you didn't. But if you haven't tried it yet, please try it and tell me what you think! I recommend setting L as an attack input for the long SS stall.

 

[SpiderMad]

Make a video, that's confusing ='(

 

[SSB_Hello]

So, you guys probably already knew you can do this, but I found a way to make Squritle leap back and forth across the entire stages rapidly by combining a few tricks. It's not really useful for combat (I guess you could incorporate it in lower level play), but it could be used to psych out your opponent during a star KO. Make them think "My gosh, that thing waddles to walk but it puts Usain Bolt to shame. And now it's wearing shades."

Tricks to know: long SS stall (the one with the C-stick) & reverse SS jump cancel (RSSJC, I'm coining it right now.)

How to perform: Make sure you are holding all the appropriate inputs to do a long SS stall. Perform the long SS stall, but do a RSSJC before Squirtle stops moving but far enough into the animation where Squirtle picks up more momentum than he had while running. This will sling you across the stage just like a normal RSSJC. However, if you are still holding the inputs for that long SS stall, Squirtle can perform this SS much earlier in his dashing animation than his normal SS, and it can be RRSSJCd. Since the jump is a backwards jump, there is no need to change the direction Squirtle is facing if you want to RSSJC the other way, so you can do this RSSJC as many times as you like (granted you don't mess up) and you always get maximum distance if your timing is right. If you perform a reverse Fsmash, then you jumped the gun with the C-stick.

So maybe you guys knew, maybe you didn't. But if you haven't tried it yet, please try it and tell me what you think! I recommend setting L as an attack input for the long SS stall.

Uhm. What's SS? I asked a friend and he didn't know either. Either way. Sounds neat. You should definitely try to get footage of it, as said below.

 

[Kally Wally]

Shell Stall, I think...?