Squirt Data

[bubbaking]

Oh ok, that makes at least three of us who have noticed this.

 

[cmart]

Yes this is a bug related to using certain physics commands out of hitstun - specifically they don't work right. Unfortunately it wasn't caught in time for the 2.5b release, but it will be fixed for the next one.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here's a list of things that Squirtle's weak armor (shellshift, N-Air, Forward-B) can reliably beat. Lime indicates a significant option to go through.

Wario: Jab1, Up-B
Mario: Jab1, Jab2, D-Air, Up-B
Luigi: Jab1, Jab2, Dash Attack, Up-B
Bowser: D-Smash, D-Air (not the landing hit), Neutral-B (not the bite), Up-B (not the first hit)
Peach: both Jabs, Up-B
Donkey Kong: Jab1
Diddy Kong: Jab1, Jab2, rapid Jab, D-Smash (first two hits)
Captain Falcon: Jab1, Jab2, rapid Jab
Ganondorf: Nothing
Wolf: all Jabs, N-Air, Neutral-B (bayonet hit; hitbox clanks out lasers)
Fox: all Jabs
Falco: all Jabs, Neutral-B
Zero Suit Samus: all Jabs, U-Smash, Neutral-B (uncharged)
Zelda: Jab, F-Smash (not the last hit), U-Smash, Up-B
Sheik: all Jabs, U-Tilt (second hit), Neutral-B, Forward-B
Link: Jab2, rapid Jab, U-Smash (first two hits), aerial Up-B (not the last hit)
Toon Link: Jab1, Jab2, Up-B (grounded), Down-B (any bomb explosion)
Lucario: Jab1, Jab2, U-Smash (not the first hit), Up-B
Pikachu: Jab, F-Air, Up-B
Jigglypuff: Jab
Squirtle: Jab1, Jab2, D-Tilt (first hit), D-Smash (side hits), Neutral-B, Up-B (not the final hit), Down-B
Ivysaur: all Jabs, F-Tilt (not the last hit), D-Tilt (first hit), N-Air, B-Air (first hit), Neutral-B (Synthesis only), Forward-B
Charizard: Neutral-B, Forward-B (not the first hit), Down-B glide attack (not the last hit)
Pit: Jab1, Jab2, rapid Jab, U-Smash (first two hits) N-Air (not the last hit), Neutral-B (uncharged)
Marth: both Jabs (non-tippered), N-Air (first hit), Forward-B (first hit)
Ike: Jab1, Jab2, Up-B (after the sword has left his hand)
Lucas: all Jabs, N-Air, Up-B lightning (tail hits only), Up-B human projectile (not the final hit)
Ness: all Jabs, D-Tilt, U-Smash (charging hit only), D-Smash (charging hit only), F-Air
King Dedede: D-Air
R.O.B.: both Jabs, D-Tilt, U-Tilt (first hit), D-Smash
Mr. Game and Watch: Jab, B-Air, Neutral-B (not the pan)
Snake: Jab1, Jab2, N-Air (first hit), D-Air
Sonic: all Jabs, U-Air (first hit), Down-B (charging), Up-B (spring)

 

[G13_Flux]

well looks like the ness vs squirtle MU is toast.. for ness that is. if weak armor beats out his fair then that bassically takes out all of the portion of ness's metagame that came from melee. lol.

but it seems like its really a lot of characters panic options that squirtle can go through. with some careful timing and precision that can be a deadly aspect in some MUs, particularly with jab happy characters like CF peach ad the spacees. granted they all have other options, but when you take out those quick off balancing attacks, it can force them into situations where they are much more predictable to you.

 

[bubbaking]

Lucas gets screwed over too in a very similar manner to what you described for Ness. Nair is a huge part of his combo-starter game. It's basically his equivalent of Ness' fair. His jabs are also very important to him, and being able to WD through his PKT2 is just icing on the cake.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Please don't use "WD" to describe Withdraw. My first reaction was, "Why would he think Squirtle could wavedash through moves...?"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here's a list of moves that Squirtle can avoid with his crouch on a flat surface.

Lime indicates a move that cannot hit at all.
Yellow denotes a move that can only hit Squirtle's shell (and effectively has reduced range).

Mario: F-Smash (not down-angled), all grabs

Luigi: F-Smash (up-angled only), U-Smash, all grabs, F-Tilt (up-angled only), Up-B, Forward-B

Peach: Jab2, U-Tilt, all grabs, Jab1 (though it requires a VERY specific position to hit), U-Smash

Bowser: F-Tilt (not down-angled)

Wario: F-Tilt (up-angled), F-Tilt (no-angled), U-Tilt, F-Smash

Donkey Kong: U-Smash, U-Tilt, Up-B

Diddy Kong: Forward-B, Down-B (just the banana pull), U-Tilt (not down-angled), U-Smash

Captain Falcon: all single Jabs (not rapid Jab), F-Tilt (not down-angled), F-Smash (not down-angled), U-Smash, Neutral-B, standing grab, pivot grab, F-Tilt (down-angled), F-Smash (down-angled), D-Smash (only end of back hit works), dash grab

Ganondorf: Jab, F-Tilt (not down-angled), F-Smash (not down-angled), U-Smash, D-Smash, Neutral-B, Up-B, standing grab, dash grab, pivot grab

Link: U-Smash, U-Tilt, F-Smash (you have to be really close)

Toon Link: Neutral-B

Zelda: F-Tilt (not down-angled), F-Smash (not the last hit), U-Smash, standing grab, dash grab

Sheik: Jab1, Neutral-B, standing grab, F-Smash (you have to be really close)

Fox: Jab1, F-Tilt (not down-angled), F-Smash (you have to be really close), Neutral-B (only perfectly-landing canceled lasers hit)

Falco: Rapid Jab, F-Tilt (not down-angled), F-Smash (you must be at least moderately close to dodge it), Neutral-B (only perfectly landing-canceled lasers hit)

Wolf: F-Tilt (up-angled)

Zero Suit Samus: all Jabs, F-Tilt (not down-angled), U-Tilt, U-Smash, Neutral-B, dash grab (you avoid the middle part)

Pikachu: F-Tilt (up-angled)

Jigglypuff: F-Tilt (up-angled)

Lucario: Jab3, F-Tilt, Forward-B

Squirtle: U-Tilt, F-Tilt (up-angled)

Ivysaur: Nothing

Charizard: U-Tilt, standing grab

Ness: F-Tilt (up-angled)

Lucas: F-Tilt (up-angled), U-Tilt

Marth: U-Tilt, standing grab, dash grab

Ike: Jab1, Jab2, F-Tilt (not down-angled), standing grab, dash grab

King Dedede: U-Tilt, Forward-B (not down-angled)

Pit: F-Tilt (up-angled), standing grab, dash grab

R.O.B.: Jab1, F-Tilt (not down-angled), U-Tilt, F-Smash (not down-angled), U-Smash, Jab2, standing grab, dash grab

Mr. Game and Watch: U-Tilt, Forward-B

Snake: all Jabs, F-Tilt1, U-Tilt, F-Smash1 (both hits), Forward-B (not hit by straight angle), standing grab, dash grab

Sonic: F-Tilt (up-angled)

 

[bubbaking]

Please don't use "WD" to describe Withdraw. My first reaction was, "Why would he think Squirtle could wavedash through moves...?"

Alright, I guess WDw should suffice or maybe just wdw. You didn't say anything on ANY of the other Squirt threads or in my Index of Abbreviations and the term has been used several times already (by people other than me, no less).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's only because I haven't seen the other threads. They should stop, too.

You should just say Forward-B/Side-B or F-b.

 

[dettadeus]

Are you sure R.O.B.'s Usmash misses? It has a grounded hitbox near his hands.

 

[G13_Flux]

do his withrdraw and shellshifts make him as low to the ground as crouch does? it seems he can avoid a lot of characters grabs pretty effectively with couching, and with a pretty decent dtilt to add on, the crawl approach seems to be a very viable option. if his more prominent approach options (shellshift,withdraw) give him that same, very low hitbox, i can see a lot of other MUs instantly shifting towards squirtles favor.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are you sure R.O.B.'s Usmash misses? It has a grounded hitbox near his hands.

It doesn't miss, but crouching makes you crouch-cancel the pop-up hit at any realistic percent, making it so that R.O.B. may as well miss entirely.

do his withrdraw and shellshifts make him as low to the ground as crouch does? it seems he can avoid a lot of characters grabs pretty effectively with couching, and with a pretty decent dtilt to add on, the crawl approach seems to be a very viable option. if his more prominent approach options (shellshift,withdraw) give him that same, very low hitbox, i can see a lot of other MUs instantly shifting towards squirtles favor.

No, the crouch puts him at his lowest point, with crawling around being a close second. Withdraw and shellshifting aren't really short enough to avoid much at all.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks so much for all that effort, Reflex. I didn't even know nair had armor! I'm definitely just gonna start dropzoning nairs vs. recoveries at high %s or when Bubble isn't a sure thing.

Alright, I guess WDw should suffice or maybe just wdw. You didn't say anything on ANY of the other Squirt threads or in my Index of Abbreviations and the term has been used several times already (by people other than me, no less).

Just say "w/d" so people instintively read it beginning with "with".

do his withrdraw and shellshifts make him as low to the ground as crouch does? it seems he can avoid a lot of characters grabs pretty effectively with couching, and with a pretty decent dtilt to add on, the crawl approach seems to be a very viable option. if his more prominent approach options (shellshift,withdraw) give him that same, very low hitbox, i can see a lot of other MUs instantly shifting towards squirtles favor.

Whenever you feel like crawling to sneak under hitboxes, just abuse his awesome WD to beat them with speed instead.

 

[bubbaking]

Everything that puts Squirt 'in his shell' has armor. Nair, w/d, and SS have 4% armor. Fsmash and dsmash have 12% armor. It's actually hard to just 'nair armor' through anyone's recovery, since most recovery attacks do greater than 4%. However, if you're looking to abuse armor, here's a way that I utilize all the time. When you knock down an opponent and he misses the tech, you can just WD over him and dsmash. The dsmash will beat out his get-up attack, so it will cover nearly all of his get-up options. It will pretty much cover all of them if you knocked him down near the ledge. I wish Squirt's DA had armor, though. It looks like it should.....

As for crawling, I was just playing a lot of Squirt today at Xanadu against this decent Falco tagged Zeros, and I was able to win all of my matches involving Squirt against him. Squirt can crawl under pretty much every laser. Combining this with dsmash and Bubble really punishes Falco for just spamming laser approaches and also prevents camping. You can WD in between lasers for bursts of speed. Once he was conditioned to not laser nearly as much, the MU became pretty easy.

Edit: While we're on the subject of armor, I may as well repeat that Squirt also has tail invincibility on his dtilt, ftilt, and bair. Especially in the case of bair, this is just GODLY! The last time I played against Jiggs, I won the bair war. I'd rather have invincibility than disjoint.

 

[G13_Flux]

thats a good trick haha, and i doubt theyd be able to punish dsmash even if they managed to avoid it with a roll. ill have to start incorperating that into my game some more, lately ive been just using squirtles WD to follow them, or i hydroplane a smash attack and try to predict theyre roll.

but i feel like squirtle has good MUs againt the space animals in general. hes very small and mobile, and his withdraw and crawl allow him to really put a dent into their camping games, like you mentioned. hes hard to catch up to, and with two projectiles of his own, and numerous approach and baiting options, he can play put some hard pressure onto them. plus hes pretty hard to combo.

 

[bubbaking]

Hmm, Falco and Wolf possibly. I'm not so sure about Fox. That mother****** is just toooo much!

Squirtle is a much better character than Charizard, IMO. Zard can potentially be one of the most free chars in the universe if you don't get grabbed and know how to hit shields safely. Nothing Zard has is very safe and he's left fishing for stuff almost all the time. Squirt is just better in pretty much every category except for the 'living long' part, but just don't get hit! It's a lot easier to do that with Squirt than to do it with Zard, and Zard also gets combo'd for days by a bunch of chars.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're all nuts.

 

[Strong Badam]

Meh
They just haven't played enough. Optimism is most common in newer players; we're just jaded by now, Reflex.

 

[G13_Flux]

what for saying that squirtle can do good against spacees? at least im not one of the 99% of the people on this forum that just claim fox and falco win everything right off the bat without reasoning. as a backroom member i would have thought you guys to be the first ones to tell everybody to keep an open mind and to try to look at both sides of things without bias, instead of claiming that me going against the grain is simply due to a lack of experience.

@bubbaking, i think that charizard actually is a very good character. i feel that based on his traits, there are certain characters that can hard counter him (such as those with fast projectiles), but on a whole, his speed, priority, and range give him the ability to shut down a lot of characters really well, and garner pretty early KOs. i will agree that squirtle has a higher potential than him though. i also wasnt claiming that a fox vs squirtle MU was in squirtles favor necessarily (i think its possible, but i certainly wont be hasty and jump to that conclusion), but i think he has potential to do well against him at an even level.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You clearly don't understand the matchup, though. A good Fox or Falco can time their lasers to hit you when you're crawling. It's hard to put either character in a tech chase position because their hitboxes beat yours and they're usually a product of the opponent not knowing the matchup (for Squirtle, at least). Shield pressure can be done with mindless strong attacks, as Squirtle has trouble setting things up and his weak traction makes him slide too far to punish.

Squirtle also moves wayyy too slow to compete as far as approaching is concerned, mostly by virtue of his incredibly slow run and mediocre runjump. Fox and Falco should have you playing their game really easily. Unfortunately, any mention of space animals doing really well against one's own character is touted as bias, despite the fact that I've put in a fair amount of effort into understanding the game and this character. Try not to assume things about anyone's responses if you can help it.

 

[G13_Flux]

well for what its worth, i was just putting my two cents into what i thought about the MU. i understand that i may not know everything, and seeing as how both yourself and strong bad are two prominent players in the project M scene (and have had better tournament success than i have so far) im inclined to respect what you have to say about the MU. however, i do not respect when something ive said about a MU (or anything else really for that matter), is automatically passed off as inexperience and "being a new player." im not out to start an argument here, dont think thats my intention, but i was not the person assuming things about others posts. if you know something about the MU that i havent seen yet, then i really do appreciate you giving me your perspective, after all, learning is really my only intention of being on these boards to begin with, im not afraid of being told what ive said isnt quite right if you come back and tell me your side of the story. but im just not a fan of when people assume im not a good player just because i didnt say what they were thinking, especially when its not followed by a counter reason to explain to me why i may not have covered everything.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I only said you lack matchup experience because you didn't address certain aspects of the matchup, and I followed up with information about the matchup. What else was I supposed to go on?

(I'm speaking for myself, mind you.)

EDIT: Just realized you were specifically talking about Strong Bad. Never mind the part where I said you were assuming things about a post. My mistake.

 

[G13_Flux]

its all good. like i said im not out to stat an argument here. id rather just worry about details about the game haha.

i appreciate you giving your take on the MU though, i dont have any friends that play top level foxes (theyre good, but rather unorthdox in their methods sometimes), so im sure that a lot of the experience ive gained from them isnt quite.. complete i guess id say. not a lot of PM representation in my area unfortunately, but ive been planning lately to venture out of my way to find some tournaments with people that i can learn a lot more from.

 

[bubbaking]

Meh
They just haven't played enough. Optimism is most common in newer players; we're just jaded by now, Reflex.

I'm really not that much newer than you at this point, not by a margin that matters anyway. I have plenty of spacee experience. Sol, Chillin, Redd, Wenbo, etc., they all live or lived in my region and I've played all of them. I'm not optimistic at all. A "good MU" can be something as bad as a slight disadvantage. It doesn't have to be a winning MU, especially in the case of Fox who has NO losing MUs. Nobody's "played enough". Not when this mod is only a few months old and everything is probably going to change in a few more months anyway. If anything, my experience with PMBR members and top players makes my experience almost as noteworthy or significant as yours.

Reflex, why do you put so much stock into Squirtle's running speed to support that Squirtle is bad at approaching? Squirtle has one of the fastest and longest WDs in the game. That offsets his 'bad' running speed quite a bit. Think Samus or Luigi, two also bad runners who make up for it with great WD/WL mobility. Squirtle has it even better because he has better aerial mobility on top of moves that completely alter his momentum and a skid that doesn't take years to finish and can even boost his speed. What really matters in Squirt's MUs is the mid/close-range game, and Squirt's incredible mobility and his ability to completely change his momentum on a dime really shines here. Frame 2 jabs, some safe pokes, and good killpower are also on good display. I'm sorry, but I really think you're being a little overly pessimistic here, and I find it a little off-putting that you tried to pin my experiences to my opponents being bad (which is completely false).

Edit: And stop saying that we don't have ample Squirtle experience to know what we're talking about. Aside from myself and Bones, we're all in the same region as cmart, who is not only one of Squirt's premiere users but is also one of his most notable developers. In addition to all the experience he's given us, I use the little turtle nearly every time I play P:M at all, and so does Bones. Let's not go there, people!

 

[bubbaking]

Shield pressure can be done with mindless strong attacks, as Squirtle has trouble setting things up and his weak traction makes him slide too far to punish.

WD OoS. People seriously do not utilize this enough (as well as crazy jab mix-ups). Luigi has the same 'problem', but he can WD OoS > tilt/smash/grab "mindless strong attacks" as punishment. I see no reason why Squirt should be any different. In addition, this problem should be mitigated somewhat whenever you guys figure out how to port true Melee shield KB into P:M, but even without it, WD OoS solves a plethora of OoS problems for those who have them. I'm sure Squirtle can also just SH Bubble or w/d to punish powerful moves as well.

To give you an idea of just how much time you have to punish "mindless strong attacks", Samus can shieldgrab ANY of Fox's smash attacks if he spaces them poorly. Now, if Samus can punish these moves with an 18-frame move, what about Squirtle's abundant fast options?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Significant shield pushback means that you basically have to wavedash forward. 5-frame jumpsquat, ~1 frame wavedash startup, 10 frames of landing lag. There goes at least 16 of those frames, and that's assuming you time the jump perfectly after shielding a move with great shieldstun. Now what--Are you gonna Jab him to death?

 

[G13_Flux]

well if we consider something like fox's upsmash, he would hit you anywhere from frame 7-17 after he starts the move. theres a total of 41 frames in the move, so if he hit you at the earliest possible time (frame 7) then that gives you 34 frames to do something. not sure what the shieldstun data is on that move, but 34 frames is still a pretty large punishing gap. his dsmash is even worse for fox frame wise, but his fsmash seems to be a tad better (39 total frames with hitbox on 12-22). having lots of shield pushback and low traction could also be considered a good thing for squirtle, as proper DI while shielding can allow you to nudge ur way out of foxs shine pillars a greater portion of the time.

 

[Bones0]

Reflex, why do you put so much stock into Squirtle's running speed to support that Squirtle is bad at approaching? Squirtle has one of the fastest and longest WDs in the game. That offsets his 'bad' running speed quite a bit. Think Samus or Luigi, two also bad runners who make up for it with great WD/WL mobility. Squirtle has it even better because he has better aerial mobility on top of moves that completely alter his momentum and a skid that doesn't take years to finish and can even boost his speed. What really matters in Squirt's MUs is the mid/close-range game, and Squirt's incredible mobility and his ability to completely change his momentum on a dime really shines here. Frame 2 jabs, some safe pokes, and good killpower are also on good display. I'm sorry, but I really think you're being a little overly pessimistic here, and I find it a little off-putting that you tried to pin my experiences to my opponents being bad (which is completely false).

Edit: And stop saying that we don't have ample Squirtle experience to know what we're talking about. Aside from myself and Bones, we're all in the same region as cmart, who is not only one of Squirt's premiere users but is also one of his most notable developers. In addition to all the experience he's given us, I use the little turtle nearly every time I play P:M at all, and so does Bones. Let's not go there, people!

No offense to Reflex, but I don't even think he's good enough at WDing to actually implement it in games. It makes his play style very barlw-like to me. lol Just watch his vids (again, not trying to diss or anything, but I don't remember seeing a single WD out of all his matches).

Here's something from yesterday. I need more practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNGtL94bFnE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEbD43e07LQ

How anyone can consider Squirtle's approach bad is beyond me. Maybe if you're just trying to bum rush like an idiot he isn't too hot, but he has the best direction-changing approaches in the game. Situations in which most characters must rely solely on pivot grabs and WDing back, Squirtle can SS well out of his opponent's danger zone and come in with spectacular speed. He also has w/d which enables him to approach into a perfect launcher from the air or ground, and you can even jump from the ground during the move to ensure that you hit them. If you miss with a w/d approach, you're probably just going to go through them and be perfectly safe, and you can even sometimes double back and get the approach on the second try anyway. Don't even get me started on SH bubble...

I don't have ample Squirtle experience. I've literally played him at 3 Smash events, and I probably logged 3-4 hours total vs. humans so far. lol Most of the stuff I notice, however, are completely independent of having actual experience. Most of it is just general Melee spacing stuff. You don't have to be a Squirtle main to realize he has an amazing WD and good options out of it (WD grab alone is really good with Squirtle). Until I see a dedicated Squirtle main with at least a decently high level neutral spacing game, I'm inclined to ignore any comments about his lack of approach options.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wavedash away here and there in the videos, as Bowser just has to stick attacks out to beat you and Up-B molests Squirtle's entire zttacking moveset, so you have to play around it instead of focusing on holes between attacks to squeeze into. Wavedashing forward to "catch" it will often get you hit by late spin hits and punished for it. Also, if you're using "amount of wavedashes" as a judge for how Melee-like a playstyle is, you're ridiculous.

With the exception of Withdraw in some situations, Squirtle's approaches are pretty telegraphed. Shorthop Bubble is solid, but you have to really lean on it, and it can be rolled under, shielded and pressured, or just hit beforehand (it doesn't have great startup). If you start a shellshift, it's pretty obvious what direction you're headed, so unless people are whiffing attacks they shouldn't be using in the first place, it's hardly a reliable approach. Most of his options exist to put you just close enough to poke with a Jab or grab...and that's pretty much it. A majority of his moveset is shut down by CC-ing, and if you attack when someone else attacks, you'll trade at best and often straight-up lose. He doesn't dish out enough damage per won encounter, doesn't have enough range or reliable mobility options, and his recovery is merely okay. He doesn't really excel at anything other than having a long wavedash, which doesn't really amount to much if you have nothing substantial to do out of it.

If you're waiting for a dedicated Squirtle main to show a high-level neutral spacing game, there's a good chance you're gonna be waiting until 3.0 comes out. He's not a very technical character, but he takes so much effort to get even a marginal reward out of. Feel free to ignore comments about his lack of approach options, though--I prefer to take what results and experience have given me. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but only a fool would ignore what the current metagame has shown us so far.

 

[bubbaking]

Significant shield pushback means that you basically have to wavedash forward. 5-frame jumpsquat, ~1 frame wavedash startup, 10 frames of landing lag. There goes at least 16 of those frames, and that's assuming you time the jump perfectly after shielding a move with great shieldstun. Now what--Are you gonna Jab him to death?

You know that when I gave my example of Samus' 18-frame shieldgrab, that didn't mean that you only had 18 frames to punish any of those scenarios, right? You actually have MORE. If Samus has plenty of time to land a shieldgrab in those situations, you have even more time to just WD forward and do something. Besides, even IF you only had 18 frames, you're still at a frame advantage. You're not restricted to just jabs. You can do a LOT of things before your opponent can. The only thing Fox can really count on if you decide not to jab is his shine, but this discussion goes past just the spacees. If you're someone else and you're using a similarly laggy, powerful move just because it sends Squirt's shield careening backwards, odds are anything you try afterwards can be stuffed by Squirt's WD OoS tilts or grabs. Again, you also have SH w/d and Bubble OoS. Even IF Squirt was limited to guaranteed jabs, what about all those potent jab mix-ups?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nothing substantial, and I was specifically talking about the space animals. Jab mix-ups don't actually work because of the lack of hitstun on them.

Unsubscribing. This thread is giving me a headache.

 

[bubbaking]

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but only a fool would ignore what the current metagame has shown us so far.

The current metagame is so young, it might as well be nonexistent. Each region has its own powerhouse characters. In MD/VA, I constantly hear from multiple people about how ROB is so good and 'Top Tier'. Nintendude thinks he's stupid, JC thinks he's very good, KnightPraetor thinks he's one of the best chars in the game, etc., but I distinctly remember that, when I still lived in NY, it was almost universally believed that ROB was a fairly mediocre character who kinda sucked at a lot of things. This was an opinion expressed to me by Eli, Leelue, Ben Grimm, Gallo, and more. Where you live and who you play with greatly influences how each char is being seen right now.

There literally is no 'universal metagame' that we can fall back on right now. Bowser is winning a bunch of money in some regions. Wolf is winning a bunch in others. Fox and Falco are also winning a lot. Last time I checked, Fox was winning the most tournaments total, but he's only dominating one region, IIRC, whereas Bowser is pulling consistently great results in two. Squirtle is suffering because no one is giving him a lot of 1-on-1 time. He has too little data to be forming any kind of conclusion on his potential or abilities at all. You're a great Wario player, Reflex, but I'm not going to automatically believe that your godlike Brawl Squirt status transferred completely over to P:M. <__<

 

[Bones0]

I wavedash away here and there in the videos, as Bowser just has to stick attacks out to beat you and Up-B molests Squirtle's entire zttacking moveset, so you have to play around it instead of focusing on holes between attacks to squeeze into. Wavedashing forward to "catch" it will often get you hit by late spin hits and punished for it. Also, if you're using "amount of wavedashes" as a judge for how Melee-like a playstyle is, you're ridiculous.

If Bowser is just zoning with meaty hitboxes, you don't have to just WD in with an attack and get slapped around. You can WD in shielding, and almost all of Bowser's moves are laggy enough to punish with whatever you want. DDing and WDing are the super core elements behind spacing in Melee. It's so fundamental that if a player can DD/WD significantly better than his opponent, he will almost always win. Sure, some characters emphasize more WDing than DDing or vice versa, but both are so critical to opening players up that I don't see how you can comment on how viable Squirtle's approach options are when you literally DD/WD 1-2 times per match...

With the exception of Withdraw in some situations, Squirtle's approaches are pretty telegraphed. Shorthop Bubble is solid, but you have to really lean on it, and it can be rolled under, shielded and pressured, or just hit beforehand (it doesn't have great startup). If you start a shellshift, it's pretty obvious what direction you're headed, so unless people are whiffing attacks they shouldn't be using in the first place, it's hardly a reliable approach. Most of his options exist to put you just close enough to poke with a Jab or grab...and that's pretty much it. A majority of his moveset is shut down by CC-ing, and if you attack when someone else attacks, you'll trade at best and often straight-up lose. He doesn't dish out enough damage per won encounter, doesn't have enough range or reliable mobility options, and his recovery is merely okay. He doesn't really excel at anything other than having a long wavedash, which doesn't really amount to much if you have nothing substantial to do out of it.

Your options only seem telegraphed because you never DD/WD. Any time you start moving, your opponent just assumes you will do what it looks like you are doing. If you SS towards your opponent and then mix in a DD before you get within their range, almost everyone will whiff an attack, and then you can DD back in and grab/dair/whatever. This obviously won't work all the time once people become more accustomed to Squirtle's amazing SS/DD/WD mixups, but I know no one is accustomed to them because I haven't seen any Squirtles really abuse it. Once people start doing mixups in anticipation of that DD delay after the SS, suddenly you have classic Yomi. Don't want the 50-50? How about we start SSing, dash away, SH bubble? Suddenly whatever they were doing to hit you out of your DD grab/aerial is getting them bubbled in the face all the time. Of course, this is a great example of classic conditioning. They get afraid of the bubble, start shielding when you SS/DD in front of them, and you just start grabbing them. If are experienced with Melee, these shouldn't even be Squirtle-specific things. I only have ~5 total hours of Squirtle practice vs. humans, and I just know to do these things because of parallel tactics in Melee. I just find moves that condition them to react in certain ways, and they start using counters as soon as they are conditioned.

I agree that CCing can be troublesome for Squirtle, but he's far from alone. I think there are other characters that struggle with CC spam much more. Firstly, his grab and movement alone are so good that no one should be able to use sitting still as their go to option. Secondly, you seem to talk a lot about jabbing which I very rarely use. I am sure I can incorporate it in a lot of situations, but jabbing is almost always considered a bad option because of how bad it gets wrecked by CC. I'm not too sure how w/d really works against a CC game, but I'll mess around with that next time I play to see if that has some potential as well. I have a feeling that you can stay pretty safe as long as you jump and w/d on top of their head instead of just hitting them from the front. CCing revolves heavily around predictability. No matter how quickly people react with CCing, you should almost always be able to fake them out to bait whiffed CCCs or catch them off guard with a grab because they didn't want to do the former.

Damage per encounter is irrelevant at this point in the metagame because Squirtle's punish options have hardly been explored thoroughly. Even with just basic punishes, I frequently get 7-10 moves chained together. I often do stuff like double utilt, uairs, and finish with up-B, and that can kill a lot of characters under the right circumstances. Even if Squirtle's punish game never gets as effective as someone like Falco's in Melee, I think his great mobility and edgeguarding more than make up for it.

What do you normally do out of WDing? I don't remember seeing you attempt ANY WDs into grabs or utilts, which are my two favorite approaches in general. You also don't seem to do much zoning with aerials despite Squirtle having a bair that seems even more disjointed than the infamous Jigglypuff bair.

If you're waiting for a dedicated Squirtle main to show a high-level neutral spacing game, there's a good chance you're gonna be waiting until 3.0 comes out. He's not a very technical character, but he takes so much effort to get even a marginal reward out of. Feel free to ignore comments about his lack of approach options, though--I prefer to take what results and experience have given me. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but only a fool would ignore what the current metagame has shown us so far.

I'm not waiting for anything. I'm not particularly heavily invested in P:M, but I enjoy playing Squirtle so when I do get my matches in, I take them very seriously and try to cram in as much knowledge per match as possible. If I have ignored any comments you've made about why Squirtle's approach is ineffective, I'd be glad to explain why I disagree. I think it's only fair that you do the same by addressing the fact that you ignore the base fundamental approach tools carried over from Melee (DD/WD). Even the worst characters in Melee are able to approach with decent success as long as they have solid DD/WD games, and Squirtle's DD and WD are both AMAZINGLY above average, so there's no reason he can't approach, even if it means something as linear and predictable as DD/WDing until you have a grab opportunity.

As far as the current metagame goes, it's basically what bubbaking said. The game is in its infancy (at least for the new characters), and there is no solidified metagame. Even after 11 years of Melee, we still continue to see pretty huge changes in what is considered effective or ineffective, it just takes a year or two for these perspective changes to take place. P:M is so new that these changes occur at virtually every tournament. If Squirtle's metagame hasn't evolved month by month, it's only because of the players being lazy and crying for patches instead of exploring new strategies on their own.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While it is versatile and effective in the right situations, you clearly overestimate how useful wavedashing is. Squirtle's dashdance is pretty awful, and I don't know what to tell you other than that you're wrong on a lot of points. You can have whatever feeling you want, but having instantaneous mobility options and really powerful strings out of them is imperative to success at a high level in this game engine, and Squirtle doesn't have either of those. A grab doesn't mean much when he should get nothing off a grab other than slight pressure on F-Throw or an edgeguard attempt on D-Throw.

Virtually all of his combos, including the stuff you mentioned, don't have enough hitstun to combo properly with the influence of (S)DI for more than two or three hits. If you're getting more than that, the opponent is missing techs, not (S)DI-ing, or generally just not trying to get back to neutral position.. Unless you're fighting a really big character, these are only happening for longer because you're actively outplaying your opponent, whether you're great and they're not, or they just don't know anything about Squirtle.

Anyway, you're welcome to prove me wrong. I would definitely love for Squirtle to show off some new stuff. I'm all for metagame advancement, but you're telling me that I'm just not using the character correctly while skipping over really fundamental problems with the character. It's hard to see your point when more important points are being ignored, either through ignorance or blind faith.

 

[Bones0]

While it is versatile and effective in the right situations, you clearly overestimate how useful wavedashing is. Squirtle's dashdance is pretty awful, and I don't know what to tell you other than that you're wrong on a lot of points. You can have whatever feeling you want, but having instantaneous mobility options and really powerful strings out of them is imperative to success at a high level in this game engine, and Squirtle doesn't have either of those. A grab doesn't mean much when he should get nothing off a grab other than slight pressure on F-Throw or an edgeguard attempt on D-Throw.

I'm baffled how you can continue to call his DD/WD bad when you clearly do not apply either to any extent in your game. If you need proof, just look at my matches and see how I apply them, and I am not even fully accustomed to Squirtle's options yet. I agree that characters with the boost-movement techniques unbalance the neutral game, but that doesn't mean it's a necessity to win. Even vs. someone like ROB who an boost into attacks, Squirtle still has more than enough tools to outmaneuver him.

I almost always uthrow from grabs, and it almost always leads to a guaranteed punish via utilt or any aerial.

Virtually all of his combos, including the stuff you mentioned, don't have enough hitstun to combo properly with the influence of (S)DI for more than two or three hits. If you're getting more than that, the opponent is missing techs, not (S)DI-ing, or generally just not trying to get back to neutral position.. Unless you're fighting a really big character, these are only happening for longer because you're actively outplaying your opponent, whether you're great and they're not, or they just don't know anything about Squirtle.

Anyway, you're welcome to prove me wrong. I would definitely love for Squirtle to show off some new stuff. I'm all for metagame advancement, but you're telling me that I'm just not using the character correctly while skipping over really fundamental problems with the character. It's hard to see your point when more important points are being ignored, either through ignorance or blind faith.

I'm not saying you aren't using the character correctly. I'm saying you're not playing the game in general correctly. I don't usually like to assume things, but I would bet anything that all of your other characters are very barlw-esque in the sense that they sort of just passively zone as opposed to manipulating space with DDing and WDing. If that's the case, it's no wonder you feel like instantaneous movement techniques are the only way to win, but it's simply not true. The funny thing about all of this is you are acting like I am making a bunch of assumptions about what Squirtle can do. I'm not saying Squirtle can 02d people every time or approach without ever getting hit, but you are saying he can almost never combo and almost never approach. You are making claims about Squirtle as a character when he's only been explored for, what, a couple of months?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Two videos against a character with enormous hitboxes and super armor does not adequately show the entirety of my playstyle.

U-Throw has horrible frame (dis, in some cases!)advantage and will more often than not get you punished for using it. Landing follow-ups just means that the opponent didn't know when he could jump/attack.

It's clear that you want to believe a specific set of ideas that aren't supported by the current results. I don't have time for assumptions--I have time for experimentation and results. Until either of those show real promise, you'll have a hard time convincing me (or most people) that Squirtle is not clearly lacking.

 

[JayMan-X]

Squirtle's Dash Dance is definitely not that great and his grabs rarely offer much reward unless the opponent is at 110-130% (Dthrow) or he throws them offstage.

 

[Bones0]

Two videos against a character with enormous hitboxes and super armor does not adequately show the entirety of my playstyle.

U-Throw has horrible frame (dis, in some cases!)advantage and will more often than not get you punished for using it. Landing follow-ups just means that the opponent didn't know when he could jump/attack.

It's clear that you want to believe a specific set of ideas that aren't supported by the current results. I don't have time for assumptions--I have time for experimentation and results. Until either of those show real promise, you'll have a hard time convincing me (or most people) that Squirtle is not clearly lacking.

I've watched a couple videos of your Wario and Ivysaur as well. Neither apply DDing or WDing whatsoever. That doesn't instantly make you bad, but it does put a significant limit on how you can approach. Do you honestly believe that your playstyle even scratches the surface of in depth approaches when it completely ignores two of the most fundamental spacing tools from Melee?

Current results? There ARE no results. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make. You can't confidently say a character is lacking until after it's been thoroughly tested. Seeing as how Squirtle is not only new but fairly unpopular, the claim that he is lacking the ability to compete with other characters is completely unfounded. If you want to be skeptical of Squirtle's long-term potential in P:M's metagame, that's fine, but it's all just speculation until the character has been at least a little fleshed out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I use my fair share of wavedashing with Ivysaur for spacing specific moves. There's very little reason to wavedash as Wario because of his movement options (and the fact that his wavedash sucks). While I do regularly dashdance, I have little need of it if the people I play don't pose much of a threat (which is rarely the case, but happens sometimes). I've done my fair share of Melee and certainly understand the uses and appeal of them.

For all it's worth, so far, I -am- the results. Literally no one else has one anything substantial in tournament with Squirtle. I have no doubt that Rat can sling a mean Squirtle, and I don't think my one tournament win against locals who have little to no tournament experience against Squirtle means much, but it seems silly to tell someone who is among the frontrunners of this character's metagame, as well as the PM metagame as a whole, that he doesn't have a good grasp of how to play the game.

There's a reason Squirtle is an unpopular character, and it's not because he's complicated (especially because he's not complicated). I am skeptical of Squirtle's long-term potential because of the time I've spent with the character. He is sorely lacking in too many crucial places to be a viable character at high-level play.

 

[Rat]

For all it's worth, so far, I -am- the results. Literally no one else has one anything substantial in tournament with Squirtle. I have no doubt that Rat can sling a mean Squirtle, and I don't think my one tournament win against locals who have little to no tournament experience against Squirtle means much, but it seems silly to tell someone who is among the frontrunners of this character's metagame, as well as the PM metagame as a whole, that he doesn't have a good grasp of how to play the game.

There's a reason Squirtle is an unpopular character, and it's not because he's complicated (especially because he's not complicated). I am skeptical of Squirtle's long-term potential because of the time I've spent with the character. He is sorely lacking in too many crucial places to be a viable character at high-level play.

Uh my squirtle is alright. I'm mostly getting off on SideB stuff along with my opponents ignorance. That doesn't last forever though.

Also yeah, Reflex is doing very good things with squirtle and is a very strong player. I'd refer to his judgement and/or try to learn from his play. (Though you (Reflex) might be underestimating Squirtles WD.)



Also I wanted to say I agree with your conclusions about Squirtle. That he's not really viable for high level play. Yes, Squirtle's an alright character - he has options and tools. But I feel the squirtle player has to work much harder than his/her opponent to win. An opening with Fox/falco/marth/shiek is gonna be worth much more than an opening with squirtle. It's not like his openings are easy to get either. Ex: The risk of WD-in, SideB, or Short Hopping at them is not worth the reward.
I want to be proven wrong though. I really do.

This video came to mind:
Sanford Kelly on Top Tiers