Specific Characters Match-up: Pikachu vs Fox

[Felth]

I know that there's a Matchup Thread. But I don't like that the information is spread among different pages because the discussion can be changed to different characters and that could be a little messy. To avoid this, I suggest the following idea: one post for each character. Following some general points I'll organize all the post in a very simple way.

I propose to study in this post the Fox MU. If you want to discuss other Matchup and you liked my idea just write a post following this idea. Suggestions of any type are welcome (I'm not an expert of Smash so it's probably that you know more than me about this).

Fox:

• Neutral Game:

• Stage selection and Ban:

• Specific Situations:
  • Ground - Ground:
  • Ground - Air:
  • Air - Air:
  • Off Stage:
  • Some situation to punish or to look (Situations that are advantageous to pikachu vs this character)
  • Situations to avoid?

Extra information:
​

• I don't want to lose all the information that the community has discovered at this point. Most of this theory it's in the MU Thread.

• You can read the document made by the User Umbreoff which summarizes the previous post. Click here to see the document. I'm transcribing this document into a pdf version with access to new options. If you want to check the progress of this document I'll invite you to see the PDF Online Version.

• With respect to the Killing Section: add Good Set-ups to perform the killing (not just the final attack). Set-ups performed in specific Stages are also welcome.

• With respect to the Stage Selection Section: we should discuss what stages to avoid and what stages are good for Pikachu. The Smash Player Esam made a Depth Analysis on each Stage. Recall that some stages could be good for Pikachu but are even better for other character that's the reason for why we should discuss this kind of things here (one example is Halberd: IMO is good for Pikachu but not against Meta Knight).

• With respect to the Difficulty Section we should discuss how difficult is this MU for Pikachu. If it's possible it would be good to associate a measure to this difficulty. I think that this section should be completed once we developed a lot of theory in the corresponding MU, otherwise is just speculation.

• With respect to the Specific Situations Section we should discuss what to do in both scenarios.

 

[Felth]

Fox is a fast faller character and it's really easy to get combos on him. In low percent it's possible to connect 4-5 (even more) utilts followed by classical air combos that Pikachu has.

If Pikachu is in High Percent avoid using shield because Fox does not have good set ups starting with grab (maybe some throw into Uair but in some little range of damage).

 

[EhMon]

I regularly practice with a high level Fox player, and have learned quite a few things.

Fox being such a fast faller sounds like easy combo food, but it's not all fun and games. Because of this fall speed, certain setups simply will not work against a competent Fox player. QA>utilt will be interrupted by his utilt (which he can then string quite a bit of damage himself) at low-mid %, though it is well worth your time to try and land utilts some other ways since you can string around 6 utilts at very low percents, getting a guaranteed 40% or so with some basic follow ups.

FF fair to usmash is also unreliable even at kill percents, again because of fast fall speed. If they are even remotely paying attention, they can shield and punish with their own usmash. I advise going for the uthrow to thunder instead, or dthrow to thunder if you are near and facing a ledge...they are more likely to DI inwards and consequently get hit by thunder.

Keeping Fox away with dtilts on the ground and fairs in the air are great, since his range his fairly poor. You can easily challenge him in the air (not from above...fear the uair) with good timing, or choose to punish his landings. While landing, watch for the use of reflector to delay his fall. Again, his fast falling speed can be used as a fantastic mixup in his favor for tomahawks since there isn't as much time to react.

Following tjolt in with QA is a good way to punish their reflector option, just to make them second guess themselves a little bit. Tjolt should be used more as a mixup, not a go to approach option. We can crouch under lasers so long as we don't walk.

I advise getting Fox airborne and off stage, since his recovery requires a bit of creativity on their part to come back safely. I prefer using Fsmash to punish his side b, and nair for the up B. Some other pikas will use bair for the fire fox, but that has a chance of not working, and it isn't as safe as nair. Timing is a bit more strict for the nair, but one practice session in training will prove it to be not so difficult since nair is so fast.

Breaking his possible utilt/jab combos with thunder is huge. Essential for breaking the jab infinite, not much of a problem now though, we can pretty much nair out of it. Because of this, I'd advise FD, duck hunt...just somewhere to always break those combos.

 

[Ritronaut]

If Pikachu is in High Percent avoid using shield because Fox does not have good set ups starting with grab (maybe some throw into Uair but in some little range of damage).

I think you meant avoid fox by using shield. Not avoid using shield.

I know we can crawl under his lasers as long as you crawl forward and not backward, since pikachu sticks his fat ass upwards.

 

[Pikabunz]

If you can grab him at 0% with no rage, then you can do uthrow to utilts into grab, nair, or whatever. This a free 40%+ damage.

 

[Uncle Honey]

In case you haven't seen it yet. Esam had a set against Megafox which highlights a matchup that sways between 50:50 and 60:40 depending on the discussion. The advantage argument is that Pika can gimp Fox, but some argue that Fox should be able to mixup his recovery enough for it to not matter as much (shine stalling is a thing).

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/v/18693402 @03:25:00

Previously several months ago, Pikabunz argued that the matchup was 50/50, even though the vast majority of contributors to that particular discussion polled it in pika's favor. I'm curious to know if your position on it has changed at all, especially since this is the first time I've seen EsamvMegafox, whom you've struggled against in the past.

 

[Pikabunz]

That set could've gone either way. 1st match was really close, 2nd match Megafox wins solidly, and 3rd match ESAM gets a solid win even though Megafox kind of sd'd at the end.

 

[Uncle Honey]

That set could've gone either way. 1st match was really close, 2nd match Megafox wins solidly, and 3rd match ESAM gets a solid win even though Megafox kind of sd'd at the end.

Indeed. Esam had a particularly difficult time getting him offstage to go for a gimp. In any case, gimping fox in smash 4 seems to be more straining than people let on due to the change to his sideb and how long his upb goes.

 

[Noro~]

Uptilt to about 25% > Downsmash is also a thing. I don't think this is the most effective way to end the Uptilt string, but it's propably one of the safer finishers.
As for the MU in general, Fox has quite a few ways to kill, even some unconventional ones. Landing Dair > Upsmash is a killconfirm, pulling you down offstage with a Fair > footstool so deep you can't act before hitting the blast zone,...
Also, Fox is good at applying pressure when you're on a platform thanks to his Upair, now more than ever thanks to the shieldstun patch I think (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[iVoltage]

Uptilt to about 25% > Downsmash is also a thing. I don't think this is the most effective way to end the Uptilt string, but it's propably one of the safer finishers.
As for the MU in general, Fox has quite a few ways to kill, even some unconventional ones. Landing Dair > Upsmash is a killconfirm, pulling you down offstage with a Fair > footstool so deep you can't act before hitting the blast zone,...
Also, Fox is good at applying pressure when you're on a platform thanks to his Upair, now more than ever thanks to the shieldstun patch I think (correct me if I'm wrong)

I mean you could but grab > upair > Nair is like pikabunz said a free 40% or more depending on which aerial you use.

 

[Armistice]

I believe this matchup is 50:50

Fox OoS is scary as hell though, I almost never FF Fair in this matchup unless I want a Up smash or Down smash to the face

 

[w0ah]

I agree with this matchup being even. Fox has a way better neutral but Pika wins off stage as long as you can react to his side-b in time. If you back air his firefox while he is going up it will spike him.

In response to Felth, you definitly should shield at high percents. He doesnt have a kill throw or follow ups so why wouldn't you?

 

[w0ah]

I mean you could but grab > upair > Nair is like pikabunz said a free 40% or more depending on which aerial you use.

Back air is .1% more damage if you get all the hits and its only 1 frame slower. So I prefer b-air over nair

 

[Thor]

I play Fox for the Fox MU. I don't dislike Pika Fox (?), but I like playing Fox and seem to beat most Fox mains in the ditto, so I just don't bother with Pika Fox most of the time.

That said, someone in here claimed FF fair -> usmash doesn't work on Fox. That's just wrong. While FF fair -> usmash is dependent on Pikachu's rage, you get large frame advantage from FF fair on Fox. Here's a spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Uhm1zB0DvBAmJkslqs5j4/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

According to the spreadsheet, if you get ff fair on Fox, you get a minimum 5 frame advantage, ALWAYS enough for the grab [Fox's jab and spotdodge are frame 2 and grab is frame 6, so we grab the startup of those moves... and every other move he has is slower]. FF fair -> usmash is nearly guaranteed when we are at 150% [it's supposed to add 3 frames to these numbers], so with the minimum 8 frame advantage, 9 frames on ground, he can shield usmash if we land at the worst possible time for fair and he ends up grounded, but if he is airborne after the fair, he can jump [which may work] or he can try to airdodge usmash [since his airdodge is frame 2 and everything else is slower, except perhaps immediate landing dair if he is 1 frame above the ground...]. And this only works on the WORST frame advantage - if we get the perfect 11 frames of advantage on FF fair when he's popped up, he can't avoid usmash at all.

If you are willing to practice FF fair -> dash attack, that's guaranteed at 150% [it takes 7 frames, one frame of dash and 6 frames for the dash attack - use the c-stick down to dash attack to avoid an fsmash, at least from what I know] and should kill Fox early [I'm gonna estimate 100% but it may be earlier because of max rage and stage position].

 

[Emuchu]

If you are willing to practice FF fair -> dash attack, that's guaranteed at 150% [it takes 7 frames, one frame of dash and 6 frames for the dash attack - use the c-stick down to dash attack to avoid an fsmash, at least from what I know] and should kill Fox early [I'm gonna estimate 100% but it may be earlier because of max rage and stage position].

You can also input an instant dash attack as a backwards Hadouken motion: Right, Down-Right, Down + A. Useful for the 3DS warriors or for anyone who B-sticks.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Fox doesn't exactly have a bevy of disjoints or lingering hitboxes he can just throw out in the neutral. Imo, just use quick attack intelligently, and don't let yourself get put in the disadvantaged state; it can be hard to recover from that against fox.

 

[Novaneith]

between 0 and 2%, you can uthrow to 8 utilt to uair nair
or uthrow to 6 utilt to full hop nair, jab lock, fsmash (74%)

not working in training mode, because all moves stay fresh. Try it in game