Special moves' customization: Falco, Wolf and Lucas endangered ?

[Oracle_Summon]

We're never going to get anywhere if you don't address my points. Simply saying the exact opposite of what I said is not a refutation. You need to explain why you think the previous game in a series doesn't matter when it comes to developing the sequel.

I have already addressed those points. The Subspace Emissary has been swept under the rug by Sakurai. The fact that it is not continuing contributes that any merits it holds with the new Smash is moot.

This one is pretty difficult to decipher, but I don't think Falco's role as a wingman being important is the point you've been making otherwise we'd be agreeing. The point I'm making is that Falco's role as a wingman is an important aspect of the Star Fox series. His persistent presence as such, combined with two SSB games under his belt, gives him priority over Wolf who in comparison has only one SSB game and some boss fights to his name.

Nope. Wolf's in one game has allowed him to be more diverse than Falco in Falco's entire existence. You claim that Sidekicks matter more than villains/rivals, when in fact, they don't. That is like claiming that the Joker is less important than Robin, when it concerns the importance of the series. It is what the Joker stands for and all that he is against Batman.

Hypothesizing about what might have been if Peppy or Slippy were included in Melee instead of Falco is totally unproductive to this discussion. That's not what happened. Falco was included in Melee and that can never be undone.

Except for the fact that there was nothing that separated Falco from either Peppy or Slippy that gave him reason to be in Melee over those two. He did get in, but we have to look as to why. Falco is most well known for Ignoring orders, putting him and his allies in danger, and going off on his own.

As I've said before, being a constant companion to the main character is a more important role than a rival character with intermitten appearances in some of the games. With screen time of almost 100% in many of his appearances, Falco is a familiar face of the Star Fox series and a key part of the team gameplay, one of the core aspects of the franchise. You haven't addressed this yet, you're just repeating that Wolf is an "obstacle to challenge Fox" without explaining why that gives him priority.

Your statement holds no merit though. Villains are more important than a sidekick that is not even iconic. Falco did not earn his spot amongst Diddy Kong or Luigi. Falco is forgetful when you compare him to the rival of the protagonist of the entire series. Falco may have been there since the beginning, but unlike Diddy Kong and Luigi, he has done nothing.

If all you can say that Falco's mere existence gives him precedence over Wolf than you are sadly mistaken. Merely existing gives him nothing.

See above. Pretending I haven't already explained why this is not the only reason Falco takes priority doesn't make my comments disappear. For the record, even without Falco's larger role in the Star Fox games, his appearances in the Smash Bros series alone would be enough for him to take priority anyway. As is the nature of any video game sequel, previous entries bear a huge influence over the design choices made by the development team.

And characters with original movesets take precedence over existing clones. Falco would serve better as an alternate costume.

It is the same move with different modifiers. looking at some of the custom moves we've seen so far in SSB4, I'd say it's about as similar as some of those - a variation on one move with different attack properties or visual effects.

That only applies to Falco. The only thing that Falco has going for him in movesets is his Down B move.

This video shows the major differences between Falco, Fox and Wolf:

With Wolf gone, he certainly wouldn't need a massive overhaul to feel as different as Wolf because he can simply take assets from Wolf's appearance in Brawl. Again, it doesn't matter what the character looks like, recreating a character in SSB4 is the same amount of work. They're not porting characters over and tweaking them.

With Falco gone, Fox would have more moves to his arsenal and would better sense than scrapping an original character for a character that barely does anything different.

Falco's appearance with his moveset mean nothing, because those moves can be easily be given to Fox. Wolf's cannot, because he and Falco fight entirely different.

A 'wingman' would be trained just like his partner. Giving Falco, Wolf's movesets would make no sense.

Except, they are tweaking characters, but making them better.

The fact that you suggested giving Falco Wolf's moveset proves that Wolf has alot more going for him than Falco does in terms of keeping his spot.

Either way, I wouldn't accept making Falco feel only as different from Fox as Wolf is as being adequate. Neither Falco or Wolf stand out from Fox, Wolf just stands out slightly more than Falco. Both characters would require a serious overhaul in order to feel truly unique.

False, you simply won't accept that Falco brings nothing to the Star Fox representatives than an empty skin. The only moves that Wolf shares with Fox is his B and Down B move.

Falco's only different move that does anything significantly different is his down B move.

Just because Falco is not unique does not make Wolf the same way.

There is no reason to keep Falco except for his popularity with Smash Fans and Tourney Players.

Wolf is as similar to Fox as Ike is to Marth.

I don't see how that's strictly relevant, but yes I suppose it does. Slipping in sneak shots to bulk up damage to the opponent without impeding their movement is pretty tricksy.

Falco had to take things from Fox to have his blaster different with Fox in Melee. Fox also seeks and destroys his enemies, making "Falco's" laser suit him as well.

I will refer to my previous example. Magnus picked up the ring in Kid Icarus Uprising. Had he not picked up the ring, Pit would have stayed stuck there and Hades would have taken over or whatever. This means Magnus was important to a pivotal event in the game's story - however, he only makes appearances in three of the game's twenty-five chapters, in ONE of the three Kid Icarus games. This means Magnus's role in the Kid Icarus series is relatively small, and is why he'd never be considered for an appearance in SSB. Cycling back to Star Fox, this is why Wolf's august position as "a thorn in Fox's side" isn't enough for him to take priority over a character with a larger role in the series.

False. Wolf is the exact image of what Fox isn't in ever aspect. Falco is nothing more than a Wingman who can easily be replaced with Slippy or Peppy Hare.

You argue that Falco's not being important in story doesn't matter, but Wolf's influence on Fox does when it comes to relevance? Again, the only reason why Falco would ever come back is because he has been in past Smash games, not because of his "importance" to anything relating to Star Fox.

If Falco comes back, it is because he merely exists.

You make zero sense. You are simply moving goal posts for Wolf to jump through.

Edit: The main reason why Magnus was not added was because Palutena has done way more than Magnus has done in his whole existence when it comes to the plot. The same cannot be said for Falco.

Granted that Falco might not be more important than Peppy or Slippy, but all three are a larger part of the series than Wolf. The games are about the Star Fox team, the Star Fox team is on the box, the series is named after the Star Fox team. The members of the Star Fox team are the main characters. Falco's importance to Star Fox is supplemented by his appearances in the Smash games. That's what gives him more overall significance than Peppy or Slippy when it comes to SSB. Why he was chosen for Melee over the other two is neither here nor there; the fact is that he was chosen, and that must be taken into account.

All three are just there to help Star Fox. The game centers around Fox McCloud and who is his rival? Star Wolf. The fact that Falco could have been merely switched with Slippy or Peppy Hare makes Falco's implementation into Smash worthless.

You are running yourself into a cycle that holds no merits. Falco is only important because he did not look like Fox when it came to Melee and that, Slippy or Peppy Hare were not chosen. Falco does nothing more important than Slippy or Peppy Hare.

Star Wolf matters because he is the leader of his own team, like Star Fox, and works against Star Fox and his whole crew.

In your example the only reason why Falco should be included is that he, Slippy, Peppy Hare, and Fox form a team, without Slippy or Peppy Hare, the Fox team is not there.

Naturally, that's not what I'm disputing. Wolf had at least enough merit to secure an inclusion in Brawl. But Falco has been around more than Wolf, you're right, and that's why I'm suggesting that in the even one of them leaves then Falco has more justification for staying taking into account his combined roles in previous Smash titles and the Star Fox series.

Still does not change the fact that Falco has done nothing worthy of being called significant. Without Peppy Hare and Slippy besides Fox and Falco there is no showing of the team. The only reason Falco is remembered is because he got lucky when being picked for Melee when Wolf is more important, remembered, and popular.

From my perspective, what I'd really like (continuing our hypothetical situation that only two SF characters make it into SSB4) is two Star Fox reps that are very different from one another, not just variations on the same thing. I explained in my previous posts that Falco is by no means obligated to appear exactly as he did in the previous game. I believe his following from two previous Smash Bros games and his role as part of the Star Fox team are enough to give him priority over Wolf as a character. I am not advocating Wolf be cut and for Falco to breeze through unchanged. I'm not even advocating Wolf be cut. All I'm saying is that as a character, Falco has much more security should one of them need to be removed.

And you are wrong about that aspect entirely. Wolf has done way more, and represents more sides of the Star Fox games than Falco ever will without Fox's whole team.

When it comes to cutting characters, the one that is vastly different than the other is safe. That is not Falco.

You can try to spin this however you want, but nothing changes the fact that Wolf is more deserving of his spot than Falco ever will on his own.

I don't want Falco cut either, but don't lie and say that Falco is safer than Wolf when it comes to significance. Falco only has Smash Fans and Tourney popularity as his only merits.

There's no rule saying that clones can't have similar customization options as their original counterparts, they are clones after all. It's not going to endanger anyone, it really isn't an important enough feature to affect the roster itself, and especially not such a popular character as Falco.

It is the fact that Speculator is trying to justify that Falco is more important than Wolf and safer than Wolf when it comes to cutting characters. Which is entirely false.

 

[Tepig2000]

Oh yeah, they're in danger. Toon Link is in danger too, how did you forget to put him in the title? /sarcasm

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Oh yeah, they're in danger. Toon Link is in danger too, how did you forget to put him in the title? /sarcasm

That does not work since Toon Link represents:

1) A Young Link

2) A different timeline of the Zelda series

3) Spirit Tracks rep

4) Phantom Hourglass rep

5) Four Swords Adventure and Four Swords rep

Toon Link has more going for him than what people claim.

There is no logical reason to cut Toon Link when it concerns his accomplishments and what he represents.

 

[Tepig2000]

That does not work since Toon Link represents:

1) A Young Link

2) A different timeline of the Zelda series

3) Spirit Tracks rep

4) Phantom Hourglass rep

5) Four Swords Adventure and Four Swords rep

Toon Link has more going for him than what people claim.

There is no logical reason to cut Toon Link when it concerns his accomplishments and what he represents.

That does not work since Falco is one of the main characters in Star Fox, Wolf is the main villain in Star Fox and is not a clone anyway, and Lucas is the main protagonist of Mother 3. See? The same can be said for any character.

Plus, the thread title doesn't say that they are endangered because of relevance, it is saying that they may be cut because they're clones. By that logic Toon Link would be cut too.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

That does not work since Falco is one of the main characters in Star Fox, Wolf is the main villain in Star Fox and is not a clone anyway, and Lucas is the main protagonist of Mother 3. See? The same can be said for any character.

Except that it does. Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucas all have done more in their games than Falco has. Falco is such a strange case rep that it does not make any sense. If Falco is supposed to represent a wingman, why not include the whole Star Fox team? Fox even prefers to fight alone.

Falco without his partners, Slippy and Peppy Hare makes no sense.

When it comes to character reps Protagonists/Antagonists matter more than sidekicks unless the sidekicks have done significant things, like Luigi and Diddy Kong.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Honestly speaking, the worst that could happen is that Wolf would be forced to have new special moves due to the custom features, which doesn't really matters as the majority of his moves are still different and these moves cannot be used for Fox's customization.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Honestly speaking, the worst that could happen is that Wolf would be forced to have new special moves due to the custom features, which doesn't really matters as the majority of his moves are still different and these moves cannot be used for Fox's customization.

Exactly.

 

[Tepig2000]

Except that it does. Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucas all have done more in their games than Falco has. Falco is such a strange case rep that it does not make any sense. If Falco is supposed to represent a wingman, why not include the whole Star Fox team? Fox even prefers to fight alone.

Falco without his partners, Slippy and Peppy Hare makes no sense.

When it comes to character reps Protagonists/Antagonists matter more than sidekicks unless the sidekicks have done significant things, like Luigi and Diddy Kong.

Guy, we are not talking about importance. If we were talking about importance, I would agree with you. But this thread is not about discussing the importance of the characters.

It's like someone said "I love chocolate because it tastes good" and you said "but it is not good for your health". Even if what you said is true, it doesn't matter for the discussion.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Guy, we are not talking about importance. If we were talking about importance, I would agree with you. But this thread is not about discussing the importance of the characters.

It's like someone said "I love chocolate because it tastes good" and you said "but it is not good for your health". Even if what you said is true, it doesn't matter for the discussion.

Except that it matters to why some characters are included in the game. With importance comes priority. Toon Link got in because of the reasons I stated, but also because Sakurai felt it important that there be a Younger Link.

Importance gives a character identity, worth if you will.

 

[Speculator]

Nope. Wolf's in one game has allowed him to be more diverse than Falco in Falco's entire existence. You claim that Sidekicks matter more than villains/rivals, when in fact, they don't. That is like claiming that the Joker is less important than Robin, when it concerns the importance of the series. It is what the Joker stands for and all that he is against Batman.

Your statement holds no merit though. Villains are more important than a sidekick that is not even iconic. Falco did not earn his spot amongst Diddy Kong or Luigi. Falco is forgetful when you compare him to the rival of the protagonist of the entire series. Falco may have been there since the beginning, but unlike Diddy Kong and Luigi, he has done nothing.

False. Wolf is the exact image of what Fox isn't in ever aspect. Falco is nothing more than a Wingman who can easily be replaced with Slippy or Peppy Hare.

You argue that Falco's not being important in story doesn't matter, but Wolf's influence on Fox does when it comes to relevance? Again, the only reason why Falco would ever come back is because he has been in past Smash games, not because of his "importance" to anything relating to Star Fox.

Still does not change the fact that Falco has done nothing worthy of being called significant. Without Peppy Hare and Slippy besides Fox and Falco there is no showing of the team. The only reason Falco is remembered is because he got lucky when being picked for Melee when Wolf is more important, remembered, and popular.

And you are wrong about that aspect entirely. Wolf has done way more, and represents more sides of the Star Fox games than Falco ever will without Fox's whole team.

You can try to spin this however you want, but nothing changes the fact that Wolf is more deserving of his spot than Falco ever will on his own.

It is the fact that Speculator is trying to justify that Falco is more important than Wolf and safer than Wolf when it comes to cutting characters. Which is entirely false.

I'm seeing a lot of "nope" and "false" and "wrong" and not a whole lot of solid reasoning. A sentence like "You claim that Sidekicks matter more than villains/rivals, when in fact, they don't" has no place in a discussion between reasonable people. Ignoring my points and repeating yourself is not a refuation.

I explained in my last post Falco's significance as a member of the team and as a veteran of the Smash Bros series. How am I supposed to respond to "nope falco has done nothing worthy of being called significant"? Are we going to go around in circles forever?

As for the Batman comparison, Wolf is not the Joker. Andross is the Joker. Wolf might be more akin to Catwoman or some other rival character - and in that case yes, Robin is more important than Catwoman. He's Batman's auxiliary, a supporting character who aids the protagonist in whatever he might be doing. Sidekick is effectively synonymous with "secondary protagonist", and it's the protagonists in a story that we are contantly exposed to and connect with as readers.

You make zero sense. You are simply moving goal posts for Wolf to jump through.

I elaborated on the exact same example you ignored in my previous post. Hardly moving goalposts.

If all you can say that Falco's mere existence gives him precedence over Wolf than you are sadly mistaken. Merely existing gives him nothing.

And characters with original movesets take precedence over existing clones. Falco would serve better as an alternate costume.

That only applies to Falco. The only thing that Falco has going for him in movesets is his Down B move.

With Falco gone, Fox would have more moves to his arsenal and would better sense than scrapping an original character for a character that barely does anything different.

False, you simply won't accept that Falco brings nothing to the Star Fox representatives than an empty skin. The only moves that Wolf shares with Fox is his B and Down B move.

It's pretty juvenile to try and retcon all the points I just made explaining Falco's significance and pretend I just said "he merely exists". I won't accept that. Go back and make a proper refutation or concede the points.

You still seem to be under the impression that Falco in Brawl was totally unchanged from his appearance in Melee. That's not correct. He's hardly the most creative character (this also applies to Wolf, before you say anything), but he absolutely could not be just an alternate costume. Falco was a clone in Melee, yes. In Brawl he recieved new animations. New attacks. New abilities. Changes. His specials are as different from Fox's as Wolf's are - that is to say, barely.

I hardly think having an original moveset (which Wolf does not have, as I will explain again in the next paragraph) is a guarantee of a return. We're already very likely to see Squirtle, Ivysaur and Snake gone. Mewtwo was scrapped after Melee while a number of characters that did not possess original movesets made it back.

Falco's appearance with his moveset mean nothing, because those moves can be easily be given to Fox. Wolf's cannot, because he and Falco fight entirely different.

Wolf is as similar to Fox as Ike is to Marth.

This is madness. You must be able to see that Falco and Wolf are both based on Fox. "Entirely different" is a delusion. All their specials are variants on the same fundamental set: a blaster, a reflector, an aimed rocket jump and a dash attack. Unlike Marth and Ike, the trio don't wield dramatically different types of weapon and thus all offer a variation on bare-handed combat. Neither characters provide anything unique, and pretending that Wolf does just because Falco happens to have a closer style to Fox is nothing more than framing.

I have already addressed those points. The Subspace Emissary has been swept under the rug by Sakurai. The fact that it is not continuing contributes that any merits it holds with the new Smash is moot.

Where are you getting this from? How do you know why SSB4 doesn't have a story mode? We've already seen Subspace Emissary enemies in Smash Run. That alone is proof that the story of Brawl hasn't been forgotten. Therefore, Falco's role in that story hasn't either. This is a very small point we're discussing, but by no means is Sakurai sweeping the SSE under a rug.

Except for the fact that there was nothing that separated Falco from either Peppy or Slippy that gave him reason to be in Melee over those two. He did get in, but we have to look as to why. Falco is most well known for Ignoring orders, putting him and his allies in danger, and going off on his own.

Okay. Those are just character traits mixed with your own perception of the character. I see Falco as a headstrong, rebellious but ultimately loyal wingman. It doesn't matter. Nothing gave him reason to be chosen over Peppy and Slippy, but he was, and that makes him a part of Smash history. There's no point denying that or wondering what might have been because it adds nothing to this discussion. As for "why not just add Peppy and Slippy too" it's because the representation of the support mechanic in Star Fox is already supplied by Falco. Once that is done we can move onto characters like Wolf (which is exactly what happened in Brawl), but that representation of a teammate comes first.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I'm seeing a lot of "nope" and "false" and "wrong" and not a whole lot of solid reasoning. A sentence like "You claim that Sidekicks matter more than villains/rivals, when in fact, they don't" has no place in a discussion between reasonable people. Ignoring my points and repeating yourself is not a refuation.

It does, because I am stating what you have said and refuting it. I did not ignore your posts I addressed them, you won't acknowledge them because they debunk your statements.

I explained in my last post Falco's significance as a member of the team and as a veteran of the Smash Bros series. How am I supposed to respond to "nope falco has done nothing worthy of being called significant"? Are we going to go around in circles forever?

The thing is Falco is not even a good example of teamwork in Star Fox to begin with. Falco is a terrible representative for Fox's team given he's an uncooperative jerk with no contributing factor who constantly leaves his friends behind.

As for the Batman comparison, Wolf is not the Joker. Andross is the Joker. Wolf might be more akin to Catwoman or some other rival character - and in that case yes, Robin is more important than Catwoman. He's Batman's auxiliary, a supporting character who aids the protagonist in whatever he might be doing. Sidekick is effectively synonymous with "secondary protagonist", and it's the protagonists in a story that we are contantly exposed to and connect with as readers.

Except that Falco has done nothing but be there, being a jerk to everyone on his team. Wolf represents the oppressors that the Star Fox team goes up against, rolled into one.

It's pretty juvenile to try and retcon all the points I just made explaining Falco's significance and pretend I just said "he merely exists". I won't accept that. Go back and make a proper refutation or concede the points.

I already did. You claim that being a wingman matters more than a villain does when said wingman is not a wingman at all.

You still seem to be under the impression that Falco in Brawl was totally unchanged from his appearance in Melee. That's not correct. He's hardly the most creative character (this also applies to Wolf, before you say anything), but he absolutely could not be just an alternate costume. Falco was a clone in Melee, yes. In Brawl he recieved new animations. New attacks. New abilities. Changes. His specials are as different from Fox's as Wolf's are - that is to say, barely. [/quotte]

Falco can be an alternate costume in SSB4, because his moves are more close to Fox's than Wolf's moves ever will be. Falco's specials are only different in the sense that it acceptional be used for Fox's custom moves.

I hardly think having an original moveset (which Wolf does not have, as I will explain again in the next paragraph) is a guarantee of a return. We're already very likely to see Squirtle, Ivysaur and Snake gone. Mewtwo was scrapped after Melee while a number of characters that did not possess original movesets made it back.

They were scrapped for all entirely different reasons.

Mewtwo was scrapped because of lack of development time.

Squirtle will likely not make it back because of Greninja and the fact that people want more diversity in Pokemon's special moves.

Ivysaur has to fight Jigglypuff and Mewtwo for the possible Pokemon spots.

Snake is threatened because we may not have many spots for third party characters and the fact that he would be promoting games for Nintendo's competitors. His only save and grace is the 3DS game he has.

This is madness. You must be able to see that Falco and Wolf are both based on Fox. "Entirely different" is a delusion. All their specials are variants on the same fundamental set: a blaster, a reflector, an aimed rocket jump and a dash attack. Unlike Marth and Ike, the trio don't wield dramatically different types of weapon and thus all offer a variation on bare-handed combat. Neither characters provide anything unique, and pretending that Wolf does just because Falco happens to have a closer style to Fox is nothing more than framing.

Obviously, you did not watch the video. Falco is the only character that does not provide anything unique that cannot be scrapped for customizable moves.
In response to bold: That is proof that you did not watch the video; otherwise, you would have seen how vastly Wolf's moves are from both Fox and Falco.

You trying to paint Wolf with the same exact brush as Falco is misleading. Inform yourself.

Where are you getting this from? How do you know why SSB4 doesn't have a story mode? We've already seen Subspace Emissary enemies in Smash Run. That alone is proof that the story of Brawl hasn't been forgotten. Therefore, Falco's role in that story hasn't either. This is a very small point we're discussing, but by no means is Sakurai sweeping the SSE under a rug.

The fact that Sakurai does not want to continue it is example enough. Here is your source:

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...pace_emissary_style_story_in_super_smash_bros

Okay. Those are just character traits mixed with your own perception of the character. I see Falco as a headstrong, rebellious but ultimately loyal wingman. It doesn't matter. Nothing gave him reason to be chosen over Peppy and Slippy, but he was, and that makes him a part of Smash history. There's no point denying that or wondering what might have been because it adds nothing to this discussion. As for "why not just add Peppy and Slippy too" it's because the representation of the support mechanic in Star Fox is already supplied by Falco. Once that is done we can move onto characters like Wolf (which is exactly what happened in Brawl), but that representation of a teammate comes first.

False, if you would have paid to attention to Falco at all in the games you would have known that Falco is quick to abandon his teammates and is uncooperative.

He's a bit of a loner, meaning he seems to leave the team every other game only to come back later. That does not sound like good teammate material to me.

 

[majora_787]

It does, because I am stating what you have said and refuting it. I did not ignore your posts I addressed them, you won't acknowledge them because they debunk your statements.



The thing is Falco is not even a good example of teamwork in Star Fox to begin with. Falco is a terrible representative for Fox's team given he's an uncooperative jerk with no contributing factor who constantly leaves his friends behind.



Except that Falco has done nothing but be there, being a jerk to everyone on his team. Wolf represents the oppressors that the Star Fox team goes up against, rolled into one.




I already did. You claim that being a wingman matters more than a villain does when said wingman is not a wingman at all.

Really, Falco isn't even there that much. It would be Slippy who is with Star Fox the most consistently and readily, since Falco ditches the team on multiple occasions and Peppy retires. And past that he is actively uncooperative and jerkish, which isn't exactly the pinnacle of teamwork.

 

[Tepig2000]

And past that he is actively uncooperative and jerkish, which isn't exactly the pinnacle of teamwork.

Impliying Slippy helps.

But seriously, what does the personality of a character have to do with it being in Smash?

 

[majora_787]

Impliying Slippy helps.

But seriously, what does the personality of a character have to do with it being in Smash?

The issue isn't "He's a **** so he can't be in Smash". The issue is, "Falco is deliberately uncooperative and regularly abandons the team so he's not much of a teammate OR a wingman", which would kind of make him less valuable to his role than Wolf is to his role as a rival / antagonistic antihero what have you.

 

[Tepig2000]

The issue isn't "He's a **** so he can't be in Smash". The issue is, "Falco is deliberately uncooperative and regularly abandons the team so he's not much of a teammate OR a wingman", which would kind of make him less valuable to his role than Wolf is to his role as a rival / antagonistic antihero what have you.

I don't remember Sakurai saying that being uncooperative makes characters less vauable. Falco made it into Smash because he was popular and was an easy to make clone. Wolf did fit into this description too, but Sakurai picked Falco instead. Why? I can't prove anything, but it can be assumed that it was because Sakurai tought Falco was more important.

 

[majora_787]

I don't remember Sakurai saying that being uncooperative makes characters less vauable. Falco made it into Smash because he was popular and was an easy to make clone. Wolf did fit into this description too, but Sakurai picked Falco instead. Why? I can't prove anything, but it can be assumed that it was because Sakurai tought Falco was more important.

... You're not understanding my point. I just said at the beginning of my point that this is not an issue of his personality keeping him out of Smash Bros. That was the first twelve words of my last post.

And Falco was picked over Wolf in Melee because Falco looks different from Fox. Then in Brawl, they made Wolf unique instead of attempting to fix Falco.

 

[Tepig2000]

... You're not understanding my point. I just said at the beginning of my point that this is not an issue of his personality keeping him out of Smash Bros. That was the first twelve words of my last post.

And Falco was picked over Wolf in Melee because Falco looks different from Fox. Then in Brawl, they made Wolf unique instead of attempting to fix Falco.

Then what's your point?

Source?

I guess that part is fine.

 

[majora_787]

Then what's your point?

Source?

I guess that part is fine.

I've seen it cited, though I don't have the link myself. It was a Famitsu interview, the same one where Sakurai discussed how Ganondorf was the last addition to Melee's roster and he was selected because of his physical similarities to Captain Falcon or something similar.

And really, Sakurai was right. Wolf isn't even a clone now and people still think he's literally just Fox only gray. It would've only been worse had he actually used him in Melee instead of Falco. People are like that.

EDIT: This was the content of it. Snooping around for Famitsu stuff from 2002, but yes.

 

[Tepig2000]

I've seen it cited, though I don't have the link myself. It was a Famitsu interview, the same one where Sakurai discussed how Ganondorf was the last addition to Melee's roster and he was selected because of his physical similarities to Captain Falcon or something similar.

And really, Sakurai was right. Wolf isn't even a clone now and people still think he's literally just Fox only gray. It would've only been worse had he actually used him in Melee instead of Falco. People are like that.

EDIT: This was the content of it. Snooping around for Famitsu stuff from 2002, but yes.

Oh. So Sakurai actually said that. Okay then. Fortunately, I don't think of Wolf as just a gray-colored Fox.

Stll, I don't know your point.

 

[majora_787]

People cite "Falco being more important than Wolf" as a reason for Falco being in over him, going off about how "Falco is Fox's second in command and definitive Wingman" when in the Star Fox series Falco is known to leave the team the most and is deliberately and actively uncooperative toward his teammates. That's... really the opposite of a good teammate. Even if Slippy is the worst flier, he's with the team the most consistently of anyone who isn't Fox.

The point isn't "Falco's personality is going to get him booted from Smash". The point is "Falco's not actually of massively greater significance than Wolf, so saying Falco is going to be kept and Wolf isn't because Falco is more important is incorrect."

 

[Tepig2000]

People cite "Falco being more important than Wolf" as a reason for Falco being in over him, going off about how "Falco is Fox's second in command and definitive Wingman" when in the Star Fox series Falco is known to leave the team the most and is deliberately and actively uncooperative toward his teammates. That's... really the opposite of a good teammate. Even if Slippy is the worst flier, he's with the team the most consistently of anyone who isn't Fox.

The point isn't "Falco's personality is going to get him booted from Smash". The point is "Falco's not actually of massively greater significance than Wolf, so saying Falco is going to be kept and Wolf isn't because Falco is more important is incorrect."

I think I finally understand you. I tought you were saying "Wolf is much more important because Falco's not a good teammate" but what you're trying to say is "Both Falco and Wolf are important and no one deserves to be in Smash more than the other". Did I get it?

 

[majora_787]

I think I finally understand you. I tought you were saying "Wolf is much more important because Falco's not a good teammate" but what you're trying to say is "Both Falco and Wolf are important and no one deserves to be in Smash more than the other". Did I get it?

Basically.

Which is why when I talk about Falco and Wolf, I look at how the two have been handled in Melee and Brawl and not at in-series importance.

 

[Geno Mallow]

I'd be fine if all three of those characters were cut

 

[Opossum]

Most of Wolf's "cloney-ness" is just do to his specials. Considering custom moves are for Specials, I don't think Wolf's really relevant to this theory.

I think Lucas is out regardless, when considering Gematsu. The only one left is Falco. While I feel he can go either way, I think he's staying if only for tradition.